Admin guidence: move discussion from User talk:Kynikos#Cite extension
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Revision as of 10:04, 15 January 2015
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:Well, if somebody becomes an admin, (s)he's probably been judged to be already fully aware of all his/her responsibilities, since becoming an admin requires quite a bit of experience as an editor (most likely as a maintainer first). Yes, some users are given administration rights because of other roles in the community, e.g. Devs, TUs, forum admins etc., but they usually don't act as "real" wiki administrators. Nonetheless, some guidelines may help users understand what is the role of an admin, and the same goes for maintainers, and we could create a proper page for that, as was conceived in [[#Meaning of Administrator]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 06:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
:Well, if somebody becomes an admin, (s)he's probably been judged to be already fully aware of all his/her responsibilities, since becoming an admin requires quite a bit of experience as an editor (most likely as a maintainer first). Yes, some users are given administration rights because of other roles in the community, e.g. Devs, TUs, forum admins etc., but they usually don't act as "real" wiki administrators. Nonetheless, some guidelines may help users understand what is the role of an admin, and the same goes for maintainers, and we could create a proper page for that, as was conceived in [[#Meaning of Administrator]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 06:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
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=== Cite extension ===
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''[Moved from [[User talk:Kynikos#Cite extension]]. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)]''
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I'm feeling bad about not having a way to cite my sources properly in my article. As I do for the LibreOffice Newsletter I'm in charge of I'll do as it for my Arch Linux articles:
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{{bc|<nowiki>
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Some text<ref name=myRefName />
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== References ==
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<ref name=myRefName>[http://someURL The link]</ref>
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</nowiki>}}
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I don't know if this system suits you. Let me know. -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 01:07, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
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:Unfortunately you cannot use the ref tag in this wiki, since it requires the Cite extension, which we don't have installed. Generally we don't require to support every statement with citations, unlike for example on Wikipedia, but it will be very useful if you will add references to external sources simply using links on keywords, like [https://www.archlinux.org this], or this<sup>[https://www.archlinux.org]</sup> (see the source text for the implementation; we don't have style rules about this for the moment). If you want to mention the generic sources that you use for writing the article, you should just add them to [[Dynamic Kernel Module Support#See also]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 05:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
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::I don't like this idea very much. The ''See also'' section sounds like we invite the user to read these documents to provide more detailed information to the reader, implying the Arch Linux documentation is not complete enough. This isn't actually what we want to do in this case: we just adapted an existing article to build a section of the Arch Linux documentation page. And yes, I would really like to have citations like in Wikipedia, but without the need to cite every assumptions we make obviously. Would you mind installing the Cite extension? -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 12:00, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
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:::Unfortunately installing extensions requires write access to the repository, which is restricted to Developers, and a feature request should be opened in the bug tracker. I don't see other alternatives to the methods I proposed above.
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:::That said, ArchWiki articles are not intended to be "complete" as in "it shouldn't be necessary to read anything else in order to understand every detail of the topic"; if the topic has good upstream/official documentation, there's no point in duplicating it, see also [[Help:Style#Hypertext metaphor]].
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:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:12, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
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:::: Hi Kynikos. Happy New Year! Any news about the citation extension? Yet again today, I wanted to write on the wiki that yaourt does support bash and zsh completion, and to link these assumptions to the source code. The cite extension is indeed very useful, especially in the case (like this one) when upstream has not good documentation. If you haven't already reported the feature request on the bug tracker, are you willing to support the one I'm gonna write? Otherwise, I don't see the interest in writing that request: devs will unlikely accept it without your support. Thanks in advance. -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 23:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
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:::::Happy New Year mate :) Honestly I don't see the need for the cite extension here: can't you just use simple inline links as I proposed above? (And as it's done in every article?) Sorry, but unless you prove that you really have no way to add that link without the extension, I can't support your request... Just try to amend the article with inline links and let's see how it looks, ok? I'll try to help you fix the style, if needed ;) -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 05:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
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:::::Yesterday again, I was cleaning/updating the [[Browser plugins]] and wanted to put a link to the official where I took that information from. That link concerned two locations in that article: [[Browser plugins#Disable the "Press ESC to exit full screen mode" message|Disable the "Press ESC to exit full screen mode" message]] and [[Browser plugins#Multiple monitor full-screen fix|Multiple monitor full-screen fix]], the solution using inline links was to duplicate that URL which I didn't. Regarding the [https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2014-December/038000.html your message], the problem seems to be a lack of workforce then. A possible solution would be merging wikis and forums of the [[International communities|native languages communities]] into Arch Linux infrastructure, bringing along all these admins/maintainers to the Arch infra. But for that a bunch of work needs to be done first: easy multilanguage support (especially regarding links) on the Wiki (maybe native language staff can help for that). -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 14:59, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
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::::::I see, actually if you want to use the same link in two different sections, there's nothing against it; even if there was the Cite extension installed, you'd have to duplicate the <ref> tag, right? There are already many articles with multiple instances of the same internal or external links, I don't see any harm with that, as long as the duplicated links are found in indipendent parts of an article.
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::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
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:::::::Yes, just the <ref> tag will need to be duplicated, but the URL, authors, description, etc. will not. That ref will just act as a very short reference to the long <ref> tag written at the end of the article. See [https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LOWN/5 this example], this is the way we are working at TheDocumentFoundation. -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 21:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
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::::::In general, also expanding on what I wrote in my arch-general post that you linked, my position is that it's too late to install the Cite extension now, because that would only introduce a new style standard for external links that would make all the existing articles style-obsolete, in practice starting a very long — if not infinite — transition period over which articles would have both inline and referenced links, which I wouldn't see as an improvement at all.
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::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
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:::::::Don't underestimate my patience or my scripting abilities ;-), I'm the kind of guy a bit maniac, with obsessive need to get everything neat. So transition period isn't really a problem ;-) -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 21:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
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::::::::Eheh I understand, I guess I'm a bit like that myself :P Well, considering that we've got this far, I'm going to move this branch of the discussion to [[ArchWiki talk:Administrators]] and see what are the opinions of the rest of the team. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 09:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
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::::::Please see it like this: using inline or referenced links are just two different style conventions: the ArchWiki happens to use the first one, let's just stick to it and concentrate on the rest, ok? :)
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::::::There is indeed a lack of workforce on the back-end, although I have to acknowledge the fact that Pierre has recently finally pushed MediaWiki 1.24 in the repo, which means it will reach the server very soon; anyway, his policy regarding internationalization has always been the opposite of your proposal, i.e. encourage localized versions to host their own wiki, so your idea would find some opposition there; but even if it didn't, I think you're greatly overrating the state of the external Arch wikis: of them, only the German and French wikis are actually alive, and the German wiki is already maintained by Pierre himself :)
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::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
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:::::::Didn't know much about the wiki infrastructure and native language frequentations, but what I've seen on the #archlinux-fr freenode IRC channel, there are some people involved with the French wiki who could be returned to the official wiki, recovering a bit more workforce. Its a great subject for discussion between officials (Pierre) and third parties IMHO. Yes, I'm in complete favour of federating around a same well defined goal: "Unity makes strength", "United we stand, divided we fall" is my country motto. -- [[User:wget|wget]] ([[User talk:wget|talk]]) 21:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
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::::::::Well, my personal opinion, which is not an official position because we've never discussed this among the admins, is that I'd be in favour of returning all the translations in the same wiki, but only after implementing [[Help talk:I18n#Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes?]] and proving that it works efficiently with the languages that are already hosted here; we should also prove that we can merge the databases of the external wikis safely and effectively. Only after that we could discuss the return of the external languages, stressing the fact that the admins coming from the other wikis should be willing to adapt to the English wiki customs, which I wouldn't take for granted.
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::::::::For the first step I'll need to complete some adaptations to my bot, but that's not on high priority at the moment: I have a todo list that I follow more or less strictly, and I promise I'll get there :)
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::::::::— [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 09:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
== FS#35545 ==
== FS#35545 ==