Original Post.
Seb: Howdy everyone, I decided to repost articles from a site that’s unfortunately not active anymore. Let’s start:
Author: ThatTrafficCone
This is going to be a series of articles that spotlight various tanks, either ones already in the game or ones that can be added, using various sources and information to give an in-depth look at these tanks. The former will include possible changes, although these will be typically be minor proposals. The latter includes probable stats for the tank were it to be introduced into the game.
To start off, we’ll be taking a look at a Tier VIII German tank destroyer, the Jagdpanther II.
The drawing the Jagdpanther II in-game is based on. [2; pg. 55]
Short Summary: The Jagdpanther II we see in game (as of patch 0.9.10) is really a combination of two different projects: early design specifications of the Jagdpanther, and a later proposal by Krupp to mount the 12,8 cm Pak 80 L/55 on the Jagdpanther chassis. The name “Jagdpanther II” is false and misleading. The tank as we know it can serve to be separated into two different tanks: a premium Tier VII based on the early Jagdpanther design specifications, and a regular Tier VIII replacement which amounts to a slightly nerfed Jagdpanther II.
So, the Jagdpanther II. What is it? Let’s take a step back first to analyze the Jagdpanther.
The Jagdpanther can trace its origins to January of 1942, with the introduction of the Pz.Sfl. IVc. This tank demonstrated that the Panzer III and Panzer IV chassis were inadequate for mounting the newly developed 8,8 cm Pak 43 L/71, and would end up carrying the iconic 8,8 cm Flak 37 and Flak 41 as a result. It became apparent that a redesigned chassis would need to be developed to carry the heavier 8,8 cm Pak 43 L/71.
Side Note: The 8,8 cm Pak 43 L/71 was a derivative of the 8,8 cm Flak 41.
Krupp was told to seek the development of a new armored vehicle on June 9th, 1942. They then began to work on the Pz.Sfl. IVc 2, which was later designated as the Pz.Sfl. IVd. Three functioning prototypes were to be built, but it’s unknown if any were actually completed. This is because just two months later in August, the Wa Prüf 6 met with Krupp to announce the Pz. Sfl. IVd would use Panther components and be built as a Panzerjäger.
Since these new plans required a complete redesign of the existing project, Krupp had to scrap the Pz.Sfl. IVd and were only able to provide plans for this new tank Panzerjäger by the start of 1943. In September of 1942, the project was handed over to Daimler-Benz for further development and eventual production. However, Krupp was still to provide the initial designs.
It was during this period of time the vehicle adopted a new name, the “schwere 88mm Sturmgeschütz Panther”. It was requested that the armor thickness of this tank have 100mm of upper frontal armor sloped at 35° from the vertical, a lower frontal plate of 60mm, and 30mm of armor plating at its deck, rear, and bottom.
Up to this point, this tank was based on the Panther II (hence the 100mm of frontal armor). But with the shelving of the Panther II project in May of 1943, the tank was to be converted over to the Panther I chassis, and as a result its upper frontal plate was dropped to 80mm and its lower frontal plate was dropped to 50mm. [1; pg. 185-193] This decision along some further development gives us the Jagdpanther as we know it
Note: as far as I’m aware, no Jagdpanzer on the Panther II chassis has ever been built.
Now back to the Jagdpanther II. This name is misleading, as it implies it’s an updated version of the Jagdpanther (as the Tiger II is to the Tiger I), when in actuality the name alludes to the Panther II on which this tank was first drafted. The name “Jagdpanther II” is simply false. A more accurate name would be “Sturmgeschütz Panther”, but then the tank we see in-game as the Jagdpanther II does not fit this profile.
So where does the design of the Jagdpanther II we see in-game come from? Well, that’s the other half of the puzzle.
In November of 1944, Krupp prepared a series of concept drawings to the Wa Prüf 6, meant to increase the armament of all Panzers and Jagdpanzers currently in production. This became known as Krupp’s proposal to “Umbewaffnung der Panzer” (rearm the tanks). This would result in a significant redesign of the current models to accommodate for the more powerful guns, especially the Jagdpanzers.
Krupp proposed rearming the Jagdpanther with a 12,8 cm Pak 80 L/55 (also known as the Pak 44), which is standard on the Jagdtiger. It was possible to mount the gun on the chassis, but it would call for a rear superstructure to balance the weight. At an estimated 51 tons, this limited the interior space and lowered the rate of fire. Given the original Jagdpanther more than met the requirements of the time, there was no need for this redesign and the proposal was rejected. [2; pg. 49]
Side Note: In accordance with proposals to mount a 7,5 cm Pak 40 L/70 on the Jagdpanzer 38(t), and with a proposal the mount an 8,8 cm Pak 43 L/71 on the Jagdpanzer IV, it’s possible that this Jagdpanther mit 12,8 cm Pak 80 L/55 would have an open-top design similar to the Nashorn, as all three of these designs share a similar rear superstructure construction.
Furthermore, if we were to consider the Jagdpanther II as simply being the 12,8 cm Jagdpanther but with a different name, we can establish the tank in-game is overbuffed in regards to its armor. For instance, the upper frontal plate is 100mm thick and the front of the superstructure is 150mm thick, not counting the plates immediately around the gun. To my knowledge, there is no factual basis for this tank to have such over-buffed values. It’s much more likely this conversion would have identical armor values to the Jagdpanther, if not lesser values to compensate for the weight increase of the gun. However, this is purely speculation.
So in the end, the Jagdpanther’s development history can be summed up by the following
January 1942: Pz.Sfl. IVc is introduced
June 1942: Pz.Sfl. IVd is drafted (also known as the Pz.Sfl. IVc 2)
August 1942: Krupp is told to drop the Pz.Sfl. IVd and develop the Schewere 88mm Sturmgeschütz Panther (based on the Panther II)
May-June 1943: The Panther II project is shelved and the vehicle is redesigned as the 88mm Panzeräger 43/3 L/71 Panther (based on the Panther I)
February 1944: The name is changed to Jagdpanther
November 1944: Krupp proposes an uparmament, the Jagdpanther mit 12,8 cm Pak 80 L/55
As you can see, the name “Jagdpanther II” never once appears during the development of the Jagdpanther. Rather, it’s the combination of two separate projects. So, in effort to make the Jagdpanther II more historically accurate, what can be done?
For starters, we can separate the two projects. A “StuG Panther” could make for a really nice Tier VII premium tank, essentially being a stock Jagdpanther with better armor and its iconic 8,8 cm Pak 43 L/71. Then we can rename the Jagdpanther II as something more appropriate. Perhaps “Jagdpanther K” for Krupp’s rearmed proposal. It would be nearly identical to the Jagdpanther II we know now, and there’s no reason to change any of its modules. But, ideally, the Jagdpanther K would have lesser armor values than the Jagdpanther II, which can be compensated for by increases to its mobility and maybe its gun handling.
In future articles, I’ll go over the Jagdpanther K and StuG Panther (and the Pz.Sfl. IV variants) in greater detail to see further how these tanks can fit better into World Of Tanks.
Sources:
[1] Spielberger, Walter J. Panther & Its Variants 1993
[2] Jentz, Thomas L. Panzer Tracts No.20-1 2001
Author Notes:
In writing this, it’s surprising to me to see Spielberger claim the wooden model image linked above is of the Jagdpanther, and not a proposal to mount the 7,5 cm Pak 40 L/70 on the Sturmgeschütz III chassis. It’s a popular conception that that wooden model is of the StuG III armed with the Pak 40 L/70 (or StuK 42).
On the StuG III page of Wargaming’s wiki, Wargaming suggests this wooden model is in regards to the StuG III, and not the Jagdpanther. This is very interesting. I wonder if there’s source information on this wooden model, because I’m more inclined to side with Spielberger than I am with Wargaming. Below you can find more images of this wooden model, taken from an unknown source. Maybe this is our StuG Panther?
Don’t confuse this model with a redesigned StuG III wooden mock-up to mount an 8,8 cm gun.
Proto-Jagdpanther mock-up with an 8,8 cm Pak 43 L/71, or StuG III mock-up with a 7,5 cm Pak 40 L/70?
This is serious business. The world needs to know!
Filed under: All Articles, Historical Articles, World of Tanks