Between them, trumpeter Dave Douglas and bassist Linda Oh are taking this year’s Wangaratta Jazz Festival by storm.
By Martin Jones
The ever industrious and diverse Douglas has formed a number of ties with Australia, including bassist Linda Oh, a member of his quintet and whose records he releases through his own label, Greenleaf Music.
At this year’s Wangaratta Fest, Douglas will not only be performing with his Quintet, but also with Paul Grabowsky, with The Monash Art Ensemble and in conversation with Matt McMahon.
Australian raised/US based Linda Oh will be performing at the festival with the Douglas Quintet, with her own band and also in duet with Gian Slater. Rhythms spent some time trying to untangle this web if musical collaboration, chatting with both Douglas and Oh ahead of their shows.
DAVE DOUGLAS
Dave, you’re preparing for your nearly annual jaunt to Australia.
Ha ha! I wish it was annual! I hope it’ll become annual. It’s my second time in a year, yeah, so that’s a good thing. I was there last year performing with John Zorn and went over to Monash and worked with Paul Grabowsky and Rob Burke and they had invited me to write this big piece that we’ll be playing. And I think the greatest thing is when you go somewhere and meet the local musicians and have a great interaction like that. It’s probably wrong to say local musicians, because they travel all round the world.
And you have one of our “local” musicians in your band in Linda Oh. You have a lot of Australian connections going on in your life right now.
That’s true. You know what is interesting that you should point that out, is that for ten years I was directing the workshop in jazz and creative music at the BANFF centre, Canada. And of all the countries around the world, Australia was consistently the best represented. We had great, great, great musicians, many of whom I’m sure you know come through that program and that’s where I met Linda for example. Mark Hannaford. Boy, so many great people. Yeah it’s just too bad it’s so darn far away. Can you do something about that?
Well I did interview Linda yesterday who obviously plays in your quintet, she was telling how you met at BANFF Workshop, can you tell me what first attracted you to her as a musician?
Um, well, let’s see… I can’t remember exactly what year it was. I think that in creative music, it’s really interesting because the idea of skills and productivity and all that, it’s so subjective. People come with all kinds of backgrounds as musicians, and just like in the real world, people do certain things really well and maybe others not so well. And I think to put it all together as a musician is a real challenge – it’s really open to examining things from all sides. So when Linda arrived at BANFF she was already an excellent bassist, and an accomplished composer, and a quick worker. And very focussed. So of course it was wonderful to meet her and play with her but I think that over a number of years is when people develop and figure out all the things that they’re going to do. So as with a lot of people, we meet, then didn’t see each other for a number of years, and then the next thing I know she was working in New York with one of my favourite trumpet players Ambrose Akinmusire, and I was like, ‘oh I remember that person! Let me check this out.’ So she’s managed to excel in all these different ares of the music whilst maintaining an open mind and a curiosity and a great musical spirit. And that’s very unusual. It’s very hard to do. It’s just hard to predict who’s going to do that.
You’ve embraced diversity as a musician. Do you feel that’s pretty typical of your contemporaries, or are you more diverse than most? I was just wondering if that’s almost necessary if you want to work in jazz these days?
I think it’s very common now. You know even among musicians that I talk to who seem to only play in one style or genre, most musicians are listening to all kinds of stuff anyway. So I feel like this generation… and hey I’m no longer the young upstart that I once was… you know fading into oblivion here at 52… but it’s funny because when I first started teaching at BANFF I used to say, ‘look I’m not that much older than you, you’re gonna want to move to New York and work with people in my circle and we’re going to welcome you and this is what you need to work on’. And then at a certain point in my tenure there, I found myself saying that… ‘look you guys are, well okay, alright, I’m twice your age…. But still!’
But I don’t… mine is probably not the first generation to have this but I feel like this iPod phenomenon it’s been around a long time that we all have a ton of different music around us that we listen to and that we collect and these sharp boundaries, I just don’t find them anymore, especially among musicians.
But I would also say that the musicians that I’m interested in being around are open minded and curious in checking out all kinds of things. And it goes into the way we play in my quintet. Certainly I bring a lot of original compositions and you know, it’s a prerequisite that we know how to work with forms and that the rhythm be popping and that the harmony be expressed fully… so all of those foundational activities that you learn from learning jazz. And in addition, that there are glancing references to other kinds of music that people learn and play and consciously or unconsciously adapt into their personal style.
You know, one of the big questions these days when you go to jazz workshops and students is, ‘oh how do you find your personal voice?’ And people ask me that a lot and I’m kind of insulted. ‘No I just sound like everybody else!’ That was a joke. But I reflect on it every time I hear the question and I always come with the feeling that I never specifically did anything to go out of my way to find my own voice. I practiced all the music I loved. I still do. I was sitting here this afternoon working on some lines to play and practicing the trumpet and for me you just do it day after day, week after week, year after year, and you become a product of all the things that you love. And I think you know, we all have influences, and I think maybe the conscious thing is to think about, ‘wow, how much am I playing just like one of my heroes here? And how do I feel about that? What do I wanna do? Am I comfortable playing exactly like them? Or do I need to think about a way to do something of my own?’
And every artist has to confront that question. There’s no correct answer.
Well particularly in jazz, where you’re so influenced by the conversation you’re having with the musicians you’re with at that time. And yet the great ones always do that and sound like themselves.
Right. Right and they find a way to bring themselves in an appropriate way to any situation that they might be in. Absolutely.
I’ve really been enjoying your new Brazen Heart record, are you happy with how it’s turned out?
Oh I’m so excited about this record. You know it’s dedicated to my brother who passed about six weeks ago, but more than that it’s a function of our experiences playing together and touring around the States. And I wanted to get at that really exciting, propulsive sense of structure but do it in a really concise way. Like really often you’ll hear a jazz band launch into something really exciting and then it goes on for a long time. So I was like, ‘okay if I could condense that energy into a three-minute song, that would be really exciting.’ I’d never really thought about it that way before and I don’t know of too many people working in that way, so it became a really interesting challenge to myself.
I nearly wept when ‘Deep River’ came on through the speakers. You all sound like you’re really enjoying that tune, relaxing into some space and taste…
Well it came out of music that’s very old and we all somehow have it in our bands. So to me as a contrast to my own compositions, playing those spirituals to me it’s like, ‘okay it’s also a challenge to be simple. And gorgeous. And just relax and do it’, like you said. And for the band it’s really like this sense of changing gears in the middle of a set to start playing one of those songs because it changes the energy of the room and everybody. And then the following tunes are also affected. And I think that that’s, in as much as a band has an identity, it’s like the connection to all the infinite ways in which music is made. I wouldn’t want to put limits on what we do, rather let’s look at the big picture and define ourselves that way.
There seems so much pressure to be aggressive and experimental in jazz today.
I will say that the function of being in New York is the realisation that there’s so many different ways to move forward. And the ways that music is made. And what is considered intense. What is considered forward-looking. We had never played these spirituals before so to me that’s new. I started performing ‘There Is A Balm In Gilead’ maybe a year and a half ago. And we were rehearsing it at a soundcheck and some festival and we finish and go off the stage and George Cables was backstage. And he came up to me and said, ‘Were you guys just playing ‘There Is A Balm’?’ And I said, ‘Yeah!’ And he got this manic, crazy grin on his face and he was like, ‘Wow! That’s crazy!’ (laughs). He’s probably played it a million times, but many years ago, so here’s an elder statesman of the music where the idea of playing a song like that is to him an unusual choice. And I sort of feel like when people talk about freedom in the music, I always interpret that to do really whatever you want to do. As diverse and as changeable as the universe offers. So when somebody says, ‘Let’s just do free improvisation,’ I’m like, ‘w\Well if it’s really, truly free improvisation then anything could happen right?’ ‘Well yeah.’ But then if you start playing a blues… ‘Well that’s not free!’ ‘Well whaddya mean? You said I could do whatever I want!’ And then there’s a side of that that’s just being a smartass too. I’m not trying to present the ultimate solution of the world, it’s just a matter of taste and a matter of accepting all the different things that can happen.
I think with this record too, over the last couple of years I’ve had an opportunity to be around Wayne Shorter and have him hear me and comment and talk to me about music. And he also wrote a couple of pieces for this band that I co-lead with Joe Levano, and I really feel like there’s something really heroic about his current stance about how he plays his music. The absolute freedom. Throwing out any rules. And not standing on his laurels. And in a very sincere and humble way, changing the rules of the game. So when I bring music into this quintent I’m really thinking about that aspect of it too. A piece like Brazen Heart, there’s a lot of different material, that we’re constantly using in different ways, but it’s never a completely scripted interaction. I feel like there’s a way in which that mimics the real world to me.
So in essence you’ll be launching two new recordings at Wang: Fabiaux and Brazen Heart. So there’s no sign of slowing down….
That’s right. Yep. Exactly. Yep I’ve just been working on the Fabiaux record with the Monash ensemble and I’m really excited about it. It’s a new kind of writing for me. I got to look at some music sources that I’ve been listening to and inspired by for many years and never really brought into a project before. And I feel like the musicians in the Monash band are uniquely suited to opening that up. And Paul Grabowsky and I had a lot of conversations bout the sources of the music and how it should be approached and I’m very appreciative of that.
Well you’re spreading yourself across Wangaratta fest in a few different guises right… the Quintet, Grabowsky, and Monash Ensemble.
Yeah it’s the Dave Douglas…. Well you know the other thing that I’m going to get to do is the duo concert with Paul. And we’re going to play the music that I wrote for the duo project called Present Joys that I released with Uri Caine a few years ago. So that’s in a sense another new release that’ll be getting introduced in Wang.
Who comes up with these constant concepts, do you have a team of masterminds behind you determined to never allow you to sleep?
It’s uh… laughs. I guess it’s a blessing and a curse. You know, I get asked that question a lot and the simple answer is that I just work every day. I’m always working on music so things just accumulate over time. And then I say to my team, ‘Hey guess what I have a new album of music that I wrote for blah blah blah,’ and they go, ‘Shut up!’ And you know I’m just always working on it. I think it’s also a function of how much I love music and musicians. The musicians themselves. Very often a project gets formed around somebody that I just love hearing and want to play with them so I think up a reason to do something. So it’s relationships that keep it going for me. And ten years ago I started my own music company that houses everything that I do. And that has been a real support structure for all of this work. It supports the touring and the releases and sheet music and podcasting and recording other artists who I think should have their music out there. So having Greenleaf music in place, it’s more than just a record label, it’s really a home for everything that I’m working on.
LINDA OH
It’s pretty common for Australian jazz musicians to move overseas, particularly to New York. Is it just not possible to make a living at the top level in jazz in Australia?
It ultimately depends on each individual… I mean in New York there’s a lot of opportunities to travel and touring, that’s the biggest thing I mean geographically its location. But it just depends on what type of music you want to play too, there’s a lot of great history, there’s a lot of different musicians in new york, but there’s so much creative and unique music coming out of Australia too. And I love the little scenes you find in other places in the world other than New York, too, that have their own distinct sound. It’s all about personal taste I think, and what you gravitate towards. Some musicians I know are great players and they want to play with certain other players so they move to wherever they can find this opportunities.
In your case, did you chase down some players in New York?
In a way, yes. I had a few things where it was like I would love to play with this musician or this type of music but things really opened up for me when I was 19 and I had the opportunity to go to New York. And I met a lot of great musicians and that kind of gave me insight into what was going on. As much as I loved Perth and what was going on there, there was just a lot for me to learn here. It’s just kind of the way things present themselves and your choices.
You personally came to jazz from more classical and rock backgrounds is that right?
Yeah I went to a music high school and I was a classical bassoon player and I played classical piano too, but I also played in rock bands and in the school jazz band on electric bass. So that’s kind of how I got into things. And after I’d started listening to Miles Davis and Jaco Pastorius and more fusion stuff, it was then that I backtracked a little bit into the Ray Brown, Oscar Peterson Trio kind of thing and into Mingus.
So what first prompted you to move away from piano and wind instruments to pick up the bass?
Well electric bass was when an uncle of mine actually gave me one and I just started playing on my own and with friends. I didn’t really take lessons, I lived pretty close to Alexandra Library and I would just get out books and try to figure things out by ear. And that’s something where I was glad to have my classical background because in terms of ear training… But when I went to college things were a little bit different. I realised I wanted to expand my knowledge of jazz playing and also I just wanted to take up the upright bass and there were a few reasons for that. Aesthetically I wanted to play certain types of music that lent itself to that sound, but also Ray Brown, I first heard Ray Brown with Oscar Petersen on ‘Nighttrain’, and that was kind of the turning point for me. And then I went into the kind of Dave Holland perspective, and other great players and haven’t really looked back.
You’re gonna be pretty busy at Wangaratta, playing in a few different guises right as will Dave Douglas? They’re getting their money’s worth out of you!
I’m playing with Dave and then playing with my band in the configuration of Rudy Royston, who plays often with me, James Muller whose on the last record, and Jon Irabogon who’s played a few gigs with me and I’ve known him for almost ten years now. So it’s going to be a really fun band. And then I’m going to be playing duo with Gian Slater.
Australian guitarist James Muller played on the Sun Pictures album right?
Yeah he played on that album and also Rudy has played with me for a long time, he was on my second record and has been doing a lot of the Sun Pictures music with me too.
Has this particular quartet played together before?
No, not with James no. So that’ll be interesting.
And then you’re also performing with Gian Slater and you guys performed as a duo a few years ago. Tell me what you have planned for that duo?
Our concert before was just basically playing jazz standard tunes that we both really loved, but that were maybe not so often played. Just beautiful songs that we liked to play. I haven’t really spoken to her yet but I think that’s what it’s going to be. Gian’s such a great musician that she’s super interactive, great ears, great sense of pitch, and phrasing. So it’s just awesome to play with her.
You’ve been to Wang a few times, how does it compare with similar festivals you might play overseas?
I mean it’s always great to be home – back with an Aussie audience. And great to catch up with people I haven’t seen for a long time. So that’s probably the best thing for me. I mean it’s great, there’s always a lot of interesting music and I get reminded of the immense talent that’s in Australia as well, which is the most inspiring thing. It’s just a beautiful vibe.
Check out: wangarattajazz.com