Clarification about venues: adding formatting to indent and make a bit easier to read - hope that's okay
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=== Clarification about venues ===
=== Clarification about venues ===
Hello, NYC team! On last week's calls the committee brought up the issue of payment for venues. Our impression is that in the past you received many venues for free (donated by other nonprofit organizations) and that now you are proposing to pay for these venues (at a heavily discounted rate), so that you can contribute something to these organizations in exchange for use of the venues. It would be helpful to have some more background about how you came to these new agreements about the venues and how and why you are increasing your expenses in this area. I figured this could be best explained by you in your own words :)
Hello, NYC team! On last week's calls the committee brought up the issue of payment for venues. Our impression is that in the past you received many venues for free (donated by other nonprofit organizations) and that now you are proposing to pay for these venues (at a heavily discounted rate), so that you can contribute something to these organizations in exchange for use of the venues. It would be helpful to have some more background about how you came to these new agreements about the venues and how and why you are increasing your expenses in this area. I figured this could be best explained by you in your own words :)
−
*The only venue that is covered under the budget item for venues is [http://www.babycastles.com/ Babycastles] in [[w:Manhattan|Manhattan]], where we hold our monthly WikiWednesday salons and skill sharing meetups, organizing meetings, and board meetings. They are a non-profit organization that has provided donated venue space since late 2014 based on the chapter not having sufficient funds to pay in the past. - [[User:Becksguy|Becksguy]] ([[User talk:Becksguy|talk]]) 14:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
I know there have been a lot of questions, and we very much appreciate the quality of your engagement here on the discussion page. Please bear with us. We are working to meet our deadline for a decision and I think we are almost there! Cheers, [[User:Wolliff|Winifred Olliff (WMF Program Officer)]] [[User_talk:Wolliff|talk]] 21:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
I know there have been a lot of questions, and we very much appreciate the quality of your engagement here on the discussion page. Please bear with us. We are working to meet our deadline for a decision and I think we are almost there! Cheers, [[User:Wolliff|Winifred Olliff (WMF Program Officer)]] [[User_talk:Wolliff|talk]] 21:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
−
:
{{u
|
Wolliff}}
I
have
some
old
notes
republished
here
,
mixed
with
updates
that
I
just
added
.
+
*The only venue that is covered under the budget item for venues is [http
:
//www.babycastles.com/ Babycastles] in [[w:Manhattan
|
Manhattan]],
where
we
hold
our
monthly
WikiWednesday
salons and skill sharing meetups
,
organizing
meetings, and board meetings. They are a non-profit
organization
that
has
provided
donated venue space since late 2014 based on the chapter not having sufficient funds to pay in the past
.
- [[User:Becksguy|Becksguy]] ([[User talk:Becksguy|talk]]) 14:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
−
+
* {{u|Wolliff}} I have some old notes republished here, mixed with updates that I just added.
−
Options for regular meetups -
+
::;
Options for regular meetups -
−
+
::In the beginning Wikipedians in New York continually had to scramble to get a space donation for every meetup. This was problematic because we had no stability and it was difficult for people to plan their schedules for a regular meetup because there would continually be the hassle of tracking where it would be and how people would get there. Some places became regular meetup spaces, and it was nice that the chapter was hosted, but as membership grew the tension with some hosts also increased as the chapter pushed the limits of their generosity. We never were able to pay. Some chapter members are relatively wealthy professionals, while others are at the lowest income levels. Space rental in NYC is crazy expensive so all meetups were hosted by donors and it was always a favor.
−
In the beginning Wikipedians in New York continually had to scramble to get a space donation for every meetup. This
was
problematic
because we had no stability and it was difficult for people to plan their schedules for a regular meetup because
there
would continually
be
the
hassle of tracking
where
it would be and how people would get there. Some places became
regular
meetup
spaces, and it was nice that the chapter was hosted, but as membership grew the tension with some hosts also increased as the chapter pushed the limits of their
generosity
.
We never
were
able to pay. Some chapter members are relatively wealthy professionals, while others are at
the
lowest
income levels. Space rental in NYC is crazy expensive so all meetups were hosted by donors and it was always a favor.
+
::It
was
desired
that
there
could
be
one
place
where regular
meetups
were
held
.
These
were the
desired
characteristics:
−
+
::*Central accessible location.
−
It
was
desired that there
could
be
one
place where regular meetups were held. These were the desired characteristics:
+
::*Stability
-
we
could
repeatedly
meet
there
−
*
Central
accessible
location
.
+
::
*
Friendly
hosting
- chapter members wanted to actually be welcome, and not imposing, and the place has to promote diversity. "Promote diversity" cannot be taken for granted
.
−
*
Stability
-
we
could
repeatedly
meet
there
+
::
*
Non commercial
-
the chapter did not want to accept commercial sponsorship from banks, consultancies, or otherwise
people
with
unaligned
values
−
*
Friendly
hosting
- chapter members wanted
to actually be welcome, and not imposing, and the
place
has
to
promote
diversity.
"Promote
diversity"
cannot be taken
for
granted.
+
::
*
Not
rich
- chapter members wanted
a
place
that
projects
a
scrappy
underfunded
image
and
casual
atmosphere
−
*
Non
commercial
-
the
chapter did not want
to
accept commercial sponsorship from banks, consultancies, or otherwise people with unaligned
values
+
::
*
Cheap
or free
-
it
has
to
be
affordable
−
*
Not rich - chapter members wanted a place that projects a scrappy underfunded image and casual atmosphere
+
::
*
Wifi
−
*
Cheap or free - it
has
to
be
affordable
+
::
*
Ideally,
has
an
aligned
mission
−
*Wifi
+
::Here are some options considered
−
*Ideally,
has
an
aligned
mission
+
::;Keep
using
a
changing
set of free spaces
−
+
::The problem with free spaces has been that negotiating spaces that are "free of financial cost" actually comes with great expense to volunteer time. Using rotating free spaces requires continual communication with the hosts, and then continual migration around the city. This is what the chapter did for 5+ years, and it was difficult for organizers and attendees. Wikipedians are good at presenting Wikipedia but less good at professional level administration of nonprofit offices. Until now, there has been an event bottleneck in that the only Wikipedians who can have events are those who can negotiate for a venue in which to host them. The investment of volunteer time in this has always been shaky and out of scope of the chapter goals. The point of WM NYC is supposed to be presenting Wikipedia, and not managing back end administration.
−
Here
are
some
options
considered
+
::;Rent
the
usual
sort
of space for a group of our size and demographic
−
+
::An organization like [http://civichall.org/ Civic Hall] is the obvious choice for a Wikipedia meeting space in New York City. It is inexpensive, has aligned values, is used by partners including Internet Society, Beta NYC, Open Knowledge, and OpenStreetMap. On occasion contributors to Creative Commons or EFF present there. Wikimedia directors Sue Gardner and Lila Tretikov have both given keynote talks at Public Democracy Forum, the conference associated with this space. It would be natural for Wikipedia meetings to be in this space and mingle with other members of organizations that also congregate here. A major attraction of this space is its location - it is in a place that the fewest number of New Yorkers would call inconvenient. Location matters a huge amount here when doing outreach in NYC and is a factor to consider when planning respect for volunteer time.
−
;Keep
using
a
changing
set
of
free
spaces
+
::The
cost to have
a
WM
NYC meeting at this space 15 times a year would cost about US$7,000/year. This place has all the amenities we need - wifi, projector, restrooms, tables, water - all the basics that people would expect in a good meetup space. There is nothing luxurious about this venue except the location and that they would allow evening (6-8pm) meetings. There are some perks that come with joining this space, like access to nonprofit incubator services, and those are sold in a package with access to the space. Still, this amount
of
money for a space that would only give limited access with appointments for a few hours on a few days was more money for less flexibility than the chapter wanted. This is the kind of space that society recommends that small nonprofit tech collectives meetup, but still, Wikipedia at its most formal is less orthodox than most other tech activism at its least formal. Civic Hall is a fair choice but it would be nice to have something less expensive and formal than even this low-budget
option.
−
The problem with free spaces has been that negotiating spaces that are "free of financial cost" actually comes with great expense to volunteer time. Using rotating free spaces requires continual communication with the hosts, and then continual migration around the city. This is what the chapter did for 5+ years, and it was difficult for organizers and attendees. Wikipedians are good at presenting Wikipedia but less good at professional level administration of nonprofit offices. Until now, there has been an event bottleneck
in
that the only Wikipedians who can have events are those who can negotiate for
a
venue in which to host them. The investment of volunteer time in this has always been shaky and
out
of scope of the chapter goals. The point of WM NYC is supposed to be presenting Wikipedia, and not managing back end
administration.
+
::;Stay
in a
trashed
out
art
space
−
+
::This is what WM NYC has been doing for a year for free. The relationship is nice but it needs to be renegotiated because the chapter is at the limit of what this space can provide. I mean "trashed out" as a complement because it matches the style of the venue, but definitely, the place is not hiring cleaning staff like other art galleries and objects placed in corners may remain there for months without notice. WM NYC helping with the bills here for the time and use would perhaps keep soap in the restroom and fund the cleaning of the toilet every few weeks, which might be more than the current schedule. This space works. Attendees accept it. It matches the public image we want to project of the Wikimedia movement - a little dirty, really creative, and making due with limited resources in a collaborative environment. Babycastles, the current art space where the group meets, is I think the most loved meetup venue by the most chapter participants. It meets the need, consumes less resources than alternatives known to the chapter, and as a nonprofit crowdsourcing collective of artists, there is a history of positive communication between the venue and Wikipedians which has never existed in more traditional meetup spaces which the chapter has used.
−
;
Rent
the
usual
sort
of
space for a group
of
our
size
and
demographic
+
::[[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2
;
color:#11e">'''
Blue
Rasberry
'''</span>]][[User
talk:Bluerasberry|<span
style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]]
15:56,
26
March
2016
(UTC)
−
An organization like [http://civichall.org/ Civic Hall] is the obvious choice for a Wikipedia meeting space in New York City. It is inexpensive, has aligned values, is used by partners including Internet Society, Beta NYC, Open Knowledge, and OpenStreetMap. On occasion contributors to Creative Commons or EFF present there. Wikimedia directors Sue Gardner and Lila Tretikov have both given keynote talks at Public Democracy Forum, the conference associated with this space. It would be natural for Wikipedia meetings to be in this space and mingle with other members of organizations that also congregate here. A major attraction of this space is its location - it is in a place that the fewest number of New Yorkers would call inconvenient. Location matters a huge amount here when doing outreach in NYC and is a factor to consider when planning respect for volunteer time.
−
−
The cost to have a WM NYC meeting at this space 15 times a year would cost about 7000/year. This place has all the amenities we need - wifi, projector, restrooms, tables, water - all the basics that people would expect in a good meetup space. There is nothing luxurious about this venue except the location and that they would allow evening (6-8pm) meetings. There are some perks that come with joining this space, like access to nonprofit incubator services, and those are sold in a package with access to the space. Still, this amount of money for a space that would only give limited access with appointments for a few hours on a few days was more money for less flexibility than the chapter wanted. This is the kind of space that society recommends that small nonprofit tech collectives meetup, but still, Wikipedia at its most formal is less orthodox than most other tech activism at its least formal. Civic Hall is a fair choice but it would be nice to have something less expensive and formal than even this low-budget option.
−
−
;Stay in a trashed out art space
−
This is what WM NYC has been doing for a year for free. The relationship is nice but it needs to be renegotiated because the chapter is at the limit of what this space can provide. I mean "trashed out" as a complement because it matches the style of the venue, but definitely, the place is not hiring cleaning staff like other art galleries and objects placed in corners may remain there for months without notice. WM NYC helping with the bills here for the time and use would perhaps keep soap in the restroom and fund the cleaning of the toilet every few weeks, which might be more than the current schedule. This space works. Attendees accept it. It matches the public image we want to project of the Wikimedia movement - a little dirty, really creative, and making due with limited resources in a collaborative environment. Babycastles, the current art space where the group meets, is I think the most loved meetup venue by the most chapter participants. It meets the need, consumes less resources than alternatives known to the chapter, and as a nonprofit crowdsourcing collective of artists, there is a history of positive communication between the venue and Wikipedians which has never existed in more traditional meetup spaces which the chapter has used.
−
−
[[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">''' Blue Rasberry '''</span>]][[User talk:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]] 15:56, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
== Questions from the SAPG committee ==
== Questions from the SAPG committee ==