Recently, coming off of my interview with Clint Bassinger of Lazy Game Reviews (LGR), I got in touch with his friend and fellow YouTuber, Sarah Wilson, aka Pushing Up Roses. Other than sharing a birthday with me, she shares a lot of the same interest in adventure games and creepy horror titles from the ‘90s such as the Hugo adventure series, King’s Quest, and Grim Fandango. Wilson started her channel in 2010 with her first video being Let’s Play with another video producer on a game called Quest for Glory. Why the name Pushing Up Roses? It’s an homage of sorts to my favorite game of all time, Grim Fandango. In that game, for those who aren’t familiar, because people ask me about my handle all the time, in that game the characters have these guns and they have something called sproutella in them. When they shoot other characters, other (undead) skeletons in this case, they sprout flowers and I thought that was really cool. And, I didn’t want to go with ‘Daisies’ because that’s already a phrase, “pushing up daisies,” so I wanted to go with something a little more [passionate]. So, I think people connect it to ‘pushing up daisies’ but, in my mind, it’s really an homage to Grim Fandango. When was the first time you played Grim Fandango? I remember it came out in 1998, and I really liked adventure games, also, during that time. Somebody recommended it to me because I grew up on Sierra games, first and foremost. I had a role-play group online and we were talking out of character about adventure games, and someone’s like ‘hey, have you played Grim Fandango?’ This was back in 2001, so a few years after the commercial failure of Grim Fandango, and at that time I was kind of naïve and I was like “where can I download it?” but they told me that I could buy it on Amazon. At that time, it was really easy to get a copy! I went and just bought the jewel case for very cheap, for like $4.00, I don’t know how much it runs for now. So that’s the first time I [discovered it] and played it. Yeah, same as me, I played it with a friend in 2001, and I was really into the game. It’s too bad it was a commercial failure, because it was very good. I remember seeing it advertised in ’98, I loved adventure games since I was little. I remember you did a video about Hugo. [Laughs] Yeah, Hugo’s House of Horrors. Yeah, what got you into that series? When did you originally play it? Oh, that’s a really good question, I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me about Hugo! So, kudos for bringing it up. I don’t – I really have to think about it. It was a long time ago! I know! Oh, I remember now, oh man, LGR would be so mad at me for not remembering this, I bugged him about it. I had a collection of games called Game Empire and it was a CD with 250 Shareware games, they had an adventure section out of these 250 games. And, Hugo’s House of Horrors, all three of them, were on there, in its entirety, it wasn’t Shareware. That was back in, I want to say like ’95 or ’96. I played them originally by getting those 3 ½ inch Shareware disks, though it was the full game on them. It was about ’92/’93, I remember I was at a mall, I think my grandparents bought it for me. It started with the third one and then I went backwards… Dude, same here! That’s Jungle of Doom, right? Yeah, Jungle of Doom, then Whodunnit, then House of Horrors. But which one is the best one? I don’t know, I like them all. I loved them when I was little. I started on Jungle of Doom, so just for nostalgia’s sake, not because it’s a better game, I would have to say that’s probably my favorite… I don’t know why I started with the third one, it just looked really cool, I guess. I don’t remember what made me buy it in the store, it was at a drug store in the mall. I love Shareware games. One of the first Shareware games that I got when my family got our computer in ’92, I was six years old, was Wolfenstein 3D. Ahh, yes, yes! You were born in ’86 or ’85? ’85! I was born exactly one year after you, on April 15th. Oh, your birthday is April 15th? Tax day buddies! [Laughs] My point is, growing up in that era of games is interesting, people born in the late ‘70s and ‘80s sort of grew up alongside the medium. There was Shareware, the Sierra adventure games. You cover a lot of those on your channel. And, you find more modern, indie games that harken back to those type of games. You did a review of Charnel House not too long ago. That game looks really creepy, too. It’s extremely creepy, extremely creepy, it’s one of the more… it’s one of those games that even though it’s in third person, third person games make me feel a little less tense than first person, that game really got to me, it’s very disturbing. And, it looks beautiful, it looks like the era of The Dagger of Amon Ra, Gabriel Knight, Kings Quest VI, it had a very specific look. All those games in that era did and that’s kind of what it throws back to, for me. When did you start playing Gabriel Knight, those type of games, how old were you? My first-ever experience with an adventure game, I think I was like four or five. My aunt Carol, she was always into computers, she was one of the first people I knew that had her own computer, it wasn’t a work computer, that was really rare at the time, to just have a personal computer [to play around on because it was expensive]. But, she had one and she was into having all these new games and all these cool things and she happened to have these floppy disks and it had this really cool banner on it. It had the King’s Quest banner with the roman numerals for ‘three.’ I don’t know what drew me to it at four-years-old, but I was like ‘oh, what’s this?’ This looks really cool, I want to play on this thing with the keyboard and the monitor. And, so she booted it up and we used to play that together, all the time. She [laughs], she was a bad typist and there are timed elements in King’s Quest III, so we kept failing, but as I grew older, I became the better typist and I would have to take over and do all the commands with her. We took that game extremely seriously, we wrote down notes, we kept extreme track of our inventory, and it is the first adventure game I actually beat without a walkthrough, without a guide, I mean there weren’t any walkthrough, really, out there anyway, you would have to mail Sierra. But, that’s what started it, and then as I got into my teens, I got more savvy with computers, and that’s when I started downloading and installing all these adventure games. Gabriel Knight came a little bit later; Gabriel Knight is a bit more mature. When I was a lot younger, I remember being drawn into a very particular atmosphere in those types of adventure games because they were slower and, especially with older computers with PC Speaker, it was quieter, and it really allowed you to get into it with a lot of imagination, like with Hugo. So, that makes me think about nostalgia, how much of your channel is because of nostalgia? [Laughs] It’s like all of it. It’s a very personal, personal channel. It’s highly subjective and it is really grounded in nostalgia and memories and just kind of a love for retro games and titles I grew up on. People might notice that I don’t do a lot of new titles. I do play new games, people always ask me, I do, I play new games, but I find that I am better at talking about things that I just have a really extreme passion for. And, those titles just happen to be kind of grounded in nostalgia, in memories. So, if people are looking for a non-biased review of old adventure games, I’m not your person because I love them, like, no matter what. I even think King’s Quest VII is a good game and people ream me for that. Yeah, not every game that I am really fond of from back then is that great. I was talking with LGR about The 7th Guest – Ahh! No! What did he say? What did he say about it? He said that he doesn’t like it anymore. I don’t like it, either. I’m not sure if I ever did. I remember liking it a lot. I played it at my aunt’s house in about ’95 when she got a new computer with a CD Rom drive. My grandmother, who lived with her, died the year prior in the hospital. But, my aunt told me a story about how she had a dream where my grandmother and other dead family members came to her. And, on top of that, her house was already a little creepy. So, that really amplified the creepy atmosphere of the game. So, I really liked the game, remembering it back then. But, going back to it now, I guess if that nostalgia wasn’t attached, I don’t think I would like it as much. Plus, the FMV stuff isn’t that great. [The FMV (Full Motion Video)] was really not that great, no. I think I still gave it a fair – even though it’s not my type of game, and that’s the big difference there is that The 7th Guest, it has all those elements that I probably would like in an adventure game, a really interesting atmosphere, creepy music, and character-driven stuff, but I’m not a fan of really intense logic puzzles. It kind of lost me at the chess-based puzzles – Me too But I think I still gave it a fairly good review because it was very innovative at the time. I think it should have a place in computer game history, and it does have a place. I can’t see myself going back to it and playing it now. But, interestingly I have a few friends who’ve never played it, never picked it up as a kid, and they picked it up recently, and because of their love for logic puzzles, they loved it! So, I guess it just depends on if you really like logic puzzles, hey, this is a game and it’s got a lot of logic puzzles, you might like it. And, the creepy atmosphere, too. A lot of your channel seems to be devoted to more games that are creepier. Did you always like that when you were growing up? No! I don’t know what happened. I was actually a really wussy, really well-behaved child, and as a got a little older, maybe around fourth grade, that’s when I started showing signs of depression and mental illness, and that’s when I think things started to change. I was still afraid of everything – and I mean everything. I’m not exaggerating, I was afraid of anything else kids liked at that time, like carnivals, and rollercoasters, and climbing trees, no, I was too afraid, it was too much for me. And then, my dad died. My dad died of cancer when I was 14 and that’s when I started really veering towards kind of creepy stuff, an interest in death, the afterlife, something to help me cope with my dad’s death. And, at the time I was also really into art so I was constantly drawing very goth kind of designs, goth-looking women, fairies, and vampires. I guess to get myself out of this thing I have where I was afraid of everything, I started rebelling in the only way I knew how, which was to get a lot of tattoos, piercings, which I don’t really rock piercings, anymore, but at the time I looked like human Swiss Cheese, and dying my hair and all of that. Yeah, I guess I’m just the total opposite these days. I’m not afraid of the same things I used to be afraid of – you could not get me to get a tattoo or even convince me that tattoos were a good idea when I was young. Needles, anything like that, was far, far too frightening. But, after my dad died, things took a really, really huge turn. I wouldn’t even be talking to you if I were the same person that I was then, because I was shy! Really, really shy. I wouldn’t talk to anybody. And, now you can’t get me to shut up! I was really scared of horror movies and some games when I was little. I looked at the box art for a movie or game, and I would just think it’s so menacing. But, after I was around 13, I really delved into anything horror and became desensitized to it. Do you think that, in your experience, facing things you find frightening helps against your fears and anxiety? Oh, yeah I definitely think so. I don’t think every game is like that, I think there are some games that heighten my anxiety, but they’re more like fighting games and RTS and stuff where I’m getting riled up. I find that games like Fran Bow and I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream are, they kind of, I don’t know it’s kind of like when you’re in an extremely bad mood and you don’t really want something happy, you don’t really want to sit down and play Mario Brothers and you don’t really want to see flowery bullshit. So, when I’m in a bad mood, I play a dark game. That sounds counterproductive, but it’s kind of cathartic in a way. Especially playing Fran Bow, I really, really connected to that game. I really recommend that game to just about anybody, even people who don’t necessarily like creepy games. Yeah! I really wanted to talk to you about Fran Bow because you’re the one that convinced me to buy it. I bought it on GOG and I love it, it’s fantastic. I haven’t finished it yet, but I want to. You made a few videos about it. Tell me about how it made an impression on you. I think there is kind of a lack of characters like Fran Bow, it’s pretty rare that you’re playing a little girl, a creepy little girl, at that. I think I connected with her character as this creepy little girl, she’s got some problems and it also depends on how you look at Fran Bow, there are a lot of theories about the game. I did a fan theory, and if you look at Reddit threads, there are so many people speculating on the symbolism. And I think that’s also kind of why I like it so much. It has – I won’t spoil the ending – but it does have a vague ending that you can really speculate on and the fact that so many people are talking about it, it’s very easy to come up with your own symbolism, that makes it really good and you want to talk about it. You want to talk about it, you want to, in your mind, you’re like ‘I’m the one with the correct theory…” It’s very fulfilling when you find something else in the game and you connect it back to something, or if you find new symbolism, you connect that back. It is really good with that. I think that’s what drew me to it. More than anything, Fran Bow made me think and I drew so many parallels to mental illness and depression that I found it extremely relatable. Has there been another game, either before or after, that touched you like that? That is a good question… I mean I can honestly say, no, not anytime recently. There has not been a game that has really, really got to me like that… Oh, you know what, very recently for different reasons, very recently I played King’s Quest 2015 Chapter 3 and that made me feel really emotional when I finished it not because it was a touching game, but because it reminded me how much I liked the games I grew up on, the original King’s Quest. With Fran Bow, I felt like I related to it, whereas King’s Quest I’m just really high on nostalgia and feelings and happy thought on days past. I’m reminded of some of the really unique videos on your channel by what we were talking about with The 7th Guest and ‘90s FMV games. You did a retrospective, or ‘where are they now?’ for FMV actors. [Laughs] I was so excited when I had that idea. I had actually pitched that idea before it’d even came to fruition on a different podcast, on The Completionist website, I was shocked by the response. They were just like “oh my god, that’s like the best idea ever!” I’m like “it is? Really? Okay, alright maybe I should do it, then.” And I did it, and people are like “this is the best idea, I can’t believe I didn’t come up with this.” I don’t know what made me think of it, I was probably binge-watching ‘Where Are They Now?’ videos. And, I’m like “you know what? Where is that one guy from Phantasmagoria 2? What is he doing right now?” And, it got such a good reception, it got picked up on several gaming sites that I might do a part two on that. I don’t know if a part two, if people would be as receptive, but there are so many FMV actors and actresses and I want to know where they went. I want to know why they did this one game and then they went off into obscurity and no one’s ever seen them again. Yeah, actually I thought about who they were when I played those games, too. And, are they actually good actors? Because actually looking back at Phantasmagoria, it’s kind of depressing. Yeah, it is. You know, interestingly the original Phantasmagoria, which I lightly touched on, some of the Phantasmagoria people in that video, but I read a comment once saying that Adrian from the original was one of the best female leads ever, and I’m like “umm… no, have you seen her acting? It’s terrible! …It’s so bad!” It’s so bad, and that’s not to say that she was a bad actress, per se. I mean Phantasmagoria was very innovative at the time, nobody was doing anything like it, really, and they put a lot of work and technology into it… So, I’m going to guess direction was a big part of that, and really bad editing. I look at Phantasmagoria and think I could edit that and make it sound a lot better. But, yeah, I want to know a lot more about these FMV actors and actresses beyond even the more mainstream games. For example, I have a game, it’s a Clue game, and it’s actually a Clue FMV mystery game and there are British actors and actresses in it and I want to know where they went. You should do a part two, I actually thought you were going to do a part two after watching that. And, as for Phantasmagoria, what it reminds me, I was talking to LGR about old box art. Do you collect boxes like he does? I do! Actually, LGR is the one who got me into that. I grew up not on a lot of money, so actually buying a lot of games was not an option for us at the time and when I met LGR, he was so excited that somebody else was into these retro games and into the box art. I had a few boxes but he started sending me boxes and then other people started sending me boxes. Now I have about 150 boxes or so. Even if a game isn’t good, do you still like having the box to have it? Oh yeah, I have Daria’s Inferno in box, and that game’s terrible. It’s awful! I have the Wayne’s World adventure game in box and that’s also awful. I do appreciate good box art. I went out and specifically sought out Dagger of Amon Ra, the second Laura Bow game, because it just has the most beautiful, beautiful box art. The very first computer game that I bought on my own, with my own money, saved it up was King’s Quest VII. And, I bought it at an Omni, which is a grocery store in Chicago, they actually shut down, but they had a technology section. And, they just had these shelves of boxed PC games and I noticed King’s Quest VII, it was very noticeable. It had a – this was the first edition of the game, there were two [box art versions] – and the one I got, it looked like a Disney movie, an animated Disney movie. It had this queen on the cover, and it had these two other characters going into a tornado, and I’m like “yeah, oh yeah, I need that game.” I bought it for fifty bucks, and I think the box art might be better than the game, itself. But, I actually threw out the box when I was young. I was stupid, I didn’t think to keep them. I recently acquired it back, I think it was actually LGR, I think he found it at like a Goodwill or something and he gladly gave it to me because I had a lot of appreciation for it, I don’t think he really cares about King’s Quest VII the way I do. So, I was really happy to get that box art back. Do you have any particular videos coming out that you want to highlight? I don’t have anything too jaw dropping, now. There’s a few things I want to do that people have been asking for a very long time. I’d like to do a review of Myst, people almost expect it because it’s an adventure game that people remember, and I might have a special guest for that. And, right now I’m working on a Warcraft retrospective just because of all the buzz of the movie, I felt inspired to pick up the old games. I grew up on them, I had them for DOS. I picked those back up for, I don’t know, 24 hours straight. So I really have to be working on that! I really enjoyed my chat with Sarah and always look forward to her videos. Sarah’s video on Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness is up now.