I'm writing my reply here because it will be a long post and I want to see the replies to it separately.
There are some major flaws with an automated MM system, which have not been mentioned anywhere. Let me point them out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNPC
This fully protects both the buyer and seller.
It doesn't fully protect anyone. While it is a much better option than going first. It is inferior to a trade with a live mm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNPC
Buyers can purchase in confidence knowing they will receive the item they purchase and sellers no longer have to worry about chargebacks or Paypal disputes.
The seller protection is a big plus, but I can't say that the buyers can "purchase in confidence".
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNPC
If there is any problem during the transaction, the credits are held by the system and can be given back to the rightful owner once Epicnpc properly investigates the issue.
The problem is, many times it won't be possible to properly investigate due to how many game companies operate and how much info they can provide, how much info is logged etc. It will be so much better than the paypal dispute resolution of course, but still not very accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNPC
Epicnpc will charge a 12% fee for Trade Guardian transactions.
So for a $1500 transaction I would have to give you $180? (The faq page says 15%, would be even worse).
For low valued transactions it's great. For mid value transactions $100-200, it's reasonable. But what about high valued transactions. Definitely won't give you $180. :D Most MMs would not charge more than $20 for that trade. But what am I supposed to do if there won't be any MMs?
The flaws:
1. It doesn't check the account/item
- The buyer gets what the seller provides. The automated MM does not check the account if it exactly matches the one advertised and if it has any hidden bad features.
The account may seem good at start and the buyer will just release the payment thinking that he has received the correct item, only finding out after hours about a hidden flaw.
2. It doesn't explain how to trade
- The majority of users come here to sell just one account. They just hear about epicnpc and other sites and attempt to sell their account with NO knowledge about how virtual item trading works. Buyers are the same. They want to have an advantage in their game and come here. They might be familiar with the gameplay of their game, but haven't got the slightest idea on how it's account management works, how to take ownership of an account and protect it.
Not to mention when you need to receive the email account in addition to the game account. It's not always gmail or something that they are familiar with. They have no idea about secret questions, recovery numbers and emails, and the company's recovery process.
3. It doesn't give advice on what to do
- Let's say that an inexperienced buyer does find something strange on the account. What do you think will happen now? The seller will say "oh sorry I didn't see about that, here take your money back"?
They will say "oh, that's not a big deal, it's fairly common, it does not do anything...." and the buyer will believe and do the trade. Most of the time. They don't see the seller as someone who will most likely scam them. They see them as someone who is much more experienced and knows what they are doing.
Many times, a traded hires a middleman not because they want to be safe, but because they have no idea what to do, and want someone to guide them.
4. It's complicated to use
- You should already be aware that regardless of how many guides, tutorials and easy to follow instructions you put, there will still be a good percent of people who will have no idea how to use the service. Those people would much rather click on an add to skype button and talk to an actual person who is experienced (with talking to people like them :D) and get everything explained to the basics.
Lets give a few examples on how easy it is to scam someone using the automated MM system. I'll give you 4 examples which can be used right now to scam someone by abusing the automated MM service.
1. The phone number recovery
-Steam allows you to connect a phone number with your account, which can be used to recover it at any time. There is also a second level security where you get an app which gives you auth codes and allows you to accept trades. When you only have the first level of protection, the phone number is only specified in the account information page, which is actually away from all the other security options like changing password and email. Also, the Steam guard protection indicator shows the same if you have level 1 phone protection and no phone at all. I have met so many users who have no idea about this. They know about the second level protection, but not about just having a phone number on the account.
How to scam?
1. Give account with hidden phone number
2. Buyer changes all info and releases credits.
3. Seller cashes out and restores account
Will EpicNPC dispute the paypal transaction in buyer's behalf. No, they will tell him that it's his own damn fault.
Is it? Yes.
Is it basically the same thing as going first just easier for the seller to trick the buyer? Yes.
Could it have been avoided by using a live MM? Yes.
2. Dota 2 has a thing called a shadow ban. It is a ban which completely prevents you from finding a PvP match. You will simply search for a match infinitely and never find a game. This ban is not specified anywhere on the account. The only way to actually find about it is to search for a match for 15+ minutes and see that you are not finding it. This ban is rare, only a small portion of accounts have it. Most people have no idea that it even exists.
How to scam?
1. Give shadowbanned account to the buyer
2. Buyer changes all the info, checkes MMR and confirms that it matches.
3. Seller cashes out and buyer is left with a broken account.
3. Dota 2 also has this thing called item gifting. You are allowed to transfer 8 items per day to any other account. The strange thing about this is that it does not follow the 7 day no trading from new device policy. An even stranger thing is that there are no logs when transferring items this way.
1. Seller gives the account to the buyer.
2. Buyer logs in and transfers the 8 (or less) highest worth items to his account.
3. Buyer reports that the account never had those items, seller reports that the buyer gifted them.
There are no logs to confirm and Steam support will not give any information. How would you decide who wins the dispute?
I picked Steam just because it is my most used platform, not because they are full of exploits or something like that. Here is one for Nexon, one that I purely learned by middlemanning:
4. Nexon email revert link
- When you change the email address on a Nexon account, the old one gets a message with a link which allows you to revert the change just by clicking on it.
How to scam?
1. Seller gives account to the buyer
2. Buyer changes the email, password and secret answers.
3. Seller cashes out and uses the revert link to take full control of the account.
Could all of this be avoided by using a MM? Definetely.
I could give you dozens of similar scams and complications that could occur while using the automated service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNPC
There are a few reasons for the removal.
First, we want to keep things simple and have one standard MM service on the site. Offering both Trade Guardian and a second MM service, offered by many different members, can be confusing for new members.
This is not a valid reson. We had escrow and MM until now. How come it wasn't confusing?
I think that forcing the members to use a new services which they are not familiar with is much more confusing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNPC
Second, we believe Trade Guardian is the superior service. Most middleman services do not accept payment, so they offer no protection against chargebacks or Paypal disputes. Middleman are also not online 24/7 while our system is always ready. In many instances we've received complaints that none of the middleman offer services for the game they play. With Trade Guardian we are able to offer the service no matter what the game.
- Most MM do not offer payment holding, but some do, including chargeback protection. Don't know about others, but I only charge $10-$15 for FULL chargeback protection.
- Saying that your service "supports" all games is wrong as well. MM who offer money holding, technically offer the same as trade guardian, without the flaws that I mentioned earlier.
- MM are not online 24/7, that is true. But has that ever been a problem? Out of the 10+ active MM, you shouldn't wait more than an hour to find one who is ready. Also, MANY users add a MM before even having a trade ready, just to consult.
Saying that an automated service is superior to a live MM is just so wrong. Without the flaws it has, it would be slightly better.
You are clearly forcing the usage of trade guarding for profit purposes. But it most likely will not work. What will happen:
1. Members will use the MMs that they used before or ask verified members to provide MM services.
2. They will search for MMs on other sites like epvp or steamrep.
3. PlayerAuction ads all over epic will start being much more effective in a month. :D
4. Around 20% users will actually use trade guardian.
I'm not saying that this is something evil that should be avoided at any cost, just that it can't be used for all purposes and replace a live MM entirely.
It definetely is superior when it comes to Steam item trading for example. And many other trades where problems like the one I mentioned are not possible, and where it is easy to check what actually happened when a dispute is opened.
I have done hundreds of MM deals, with hundreds of different people, for 50+ different games, and that's why I know that this system is flawed (again, not entirely). Every other experienced MM can confirm that what I've said is true and that the problems I mentioned do exist and are not rare. Why didn't playerauctions do the same thing?
Also, you said "we believe", who is we? :D
Didn't most of the mods disagree with this?
I understand that you are leading a business here, and that profit is your main concern. You have so much more experience than me when it comes to leading a business. But probably not when it comes to MMing. Please take into account what I've said and try to reconsider the closure of live MM services. Changes are welcome, but don't remove something that was there for years, and that's irreplaceable for a reason.