Thanks to OriginalWacky who sent in this transcript of the online discussion yesterday between No Kill Norfolk and Kill Everything Norfolk, aka PETA. This was a live chat so there are the typical typos and out of order questions/responses.
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From Original Wacky:
{{}} is to indicate something I’ve typed that isn’t print, like a pop-up poll, or picture. I believe you can also see the whole thing at the link, but I don’t know if that will stay up or not.
{{BEGIN}}
11:47
PilotOnline.com: Good morning! Welcome to today’s live chat where we talk the issue of no-kill shelters in Norfolk. The chat will begin promptly at 12 p.m. Please feel free to start asking questions through this platform now. You may also tweet us your questions at @PilotNorfolk using the hashtag #nokill. Thank you for your participation. The chat will begin momentarily.
12:00
Corinne Reilly: Hello, everyone. Welcome to our chat with Debra Griggs of No-Kill Hampton Roads and Daphna Nachminovitch of PETA. We’re here to talk about animal sheltering and homelessness, the local and national no-kill movements, and the use of euthanasia in shelters. The Pilot took a look at this complex issue on Sunday. Here’s a link if you missed it: http://hamptonroads.com/2013/08/peta-nokill-groups-disagree-life-or-death
12:01
Corinne Reilly: Please send your questions our way. In the meantime, I’ll start us off. Either or both of you can answer this one. What do you think about the term “no kill”? How is it helpful or hurtful?
12:02
Debra Griggs: Thanks for that start, Corinne. No Kill is the accepted term for communities saving 90+% of the animals. We believe that the term is clear and in communities where No Kill has been declared as the goal, we’ve seen citizens step up to support that life affirming approach.
12:03
Comment From Amber Hogg
For Debra Griggs – Do you agree that there is an overpopulation crisis with animals? I read somewhere that the no-kill movement actually thinks that overpopulation is a “myth.” What is your position?
12:03
Daphna Nachminovitch: The term is dangerously divisive. Tragically animal shelters are forced to euthanize animals whom no one wants when those are unadoptable or just not adopted, for whatever reason. If a limited-admission shelter is “no-kill,” what is an open-door shelter to be? This term has led to more divisiveness and hostility between animal shelters, without helping any animals.
12:03
Comment From Amber Hogg
For Daphna Nachminovitch – What is PETA doing to help our community end euthanasia one day?
12:04
Debra Griggs: A recent study by Maddies Fund reports that approximately 17 million people will adopt an animal this year but they have not decided from where they will get the animal. 3.5-4 million dogs and cats are killed in shelters. We say there is “marketing” problem, not an “overpopulation problem.
12:05
Daphna Nachminovitch: PETA is on the front lines every day, helping individual animals as well as tackling the b ig picture of animal homelessness. We operate three mobile spay/neuter units that sterilize animals for free or low-cost. We have spayed and neutered more than 95,000 (!) animals in the last 12 years, saving countless lives. We also promote adoption through celebrity ads and our own work, and work with people across the nation to get animals adopted, pet stores and breeders out of business, and open-admission policies supported by the public.
12:05
Comment From JR
This question is for Debra Griggs: Do you think that it is humane to keep a dog or a cat caged for several years in hopes that the animal finds a home? How long becomes too long? Don’t animals go kennel crazy just as people would in solitary confinement?
12:06
Comment From JR
This question is for Daphna Nachminovitch: I’ve heard that the “no-kill” movement is responsible for the increase in hoarding cases nationwide. Is that true and how widespread is this problem?
12:06
Corinne Reilly: We’ve got a lot of great questions in our queue. Thanks everyone.
12:07 {{picture posted of tem leader Irv Harrell and reporter Corinne Riley during chat}}
12:07
Debra Griggs: JR, keeping an animal “caged” without stimulation is cruel. We do not support that. Keeping an animal in a shelter where it is loved, cared for and offered socialization is entirely different. We believe animals have a right to life and a right to be cared for appropriately until a “forever” home is found for them.
12:07
Comment From Harmony12
For Debra Griggs: Do you think it should be legal for people to release feral cats onto private property without the permission of the property owner?
12:08
Daphna Nachminovitch: Thanks JR. It is very, very true. It is now estimated that at least 25% of the 6000 animal hoarding cases reported in the US annually are so-called “rescues.” This is a widespread problem largely due to pressure from proponents of “life at any cost” on open-admission shelters to release animals to anyone with a pulse. Check out our Caboodle Ranch investigation, Angel’s Gate investigation, and “Sacred Vision Animal Sanctuary” investigation on peta.org. You will see that there are fates far worse than a humane death.
12:08
Comment From cats_cats_cats
This is for Daphna Nachminovitch – How do you reply to folks who say they’ll only buy from a “responsible” breeder? – Thanks!
12:10
Comment From Anne
Debra: I once volunteered at a “no-kill” cat shelter. It was always crowded, so we often had to turn animals away. What do you think facilities should do when they are full?
12:10
Debra Griggs: Harmony12, thanks for that question. We believe that with community education, this will become far less of an issue. In our experience, when a property owner is approached and educated that if the cats are merely removed (and likely killed at a shelter), other cats will move in, the property owner embraces TNR as a humane approach to reducing the free roaming cat population.
12:12
Daphna Nachminovitch: The reality is that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder in a day and age where animals in shelters are literally dying for homes. No one should be allowed to “make” more animals while perfectly wonderful, healthy animals flood our nation’s shelters. Responsible people don’t breed or buy. They adopt. Please always adopt, never buy.
12:13
Comment From Damifino
Daphna-In a recent article on HufPo Ingrid Newkirk claimed that you operate a shelter with regular adoption hours. Where can we find out what those hours are and what are your adoption policies?
12:16
Daphna Nachminovitch: Our shelter is located at 501 Front ST., the Sam Simon Center, and it is open during regular office hours (9-5:30) though we are always happy to make arrangements to meet people after-hours and on weekends if that’s what’s best for an animal. People who wish to adopt should email us at adopt@peta.org for available animals or can call 757 622 7382 and ask. We have several dogs for adoption at the moment. Adoption policies are available if you email us (time is limited so bear with me) but generally, spay/neuter/microchip before release, $75 adoption fee, application, contract and home visit required. If you are looking to adopt please email us!
12:16
Debra Griggs: Thanks Anne – that is a wonderful inquiry! There are a number of things a shelter can do but, again, this is a community issue, not a single shelter issue. Shelters must engage the public and if done in a robust way, citizens step up to help. Rescue groups are another critical resource. And, very importantly, shelters must partner with other shelters to support one another. Partnerships with other shelters, rescue groups, and most importantly – citizens – make No Kill work!
12:17
Comment From Guest
Daphna: Have all the animals whose lives were ended by PETA been suffering so much that they had to be euthanized or so vicious that they could not be rehabilitated? If not, why were their lives ended?
12:17
Comment From Tiffany
For Ms. Griggs: How does the “no-kill” movement handle the animals that are not as easy to place in homes because they need more specialized care , like rabbits (the 3rd most commonly abandoned animal), guinea pigs, parrots, and the so-called “pocket pets” like sugar gliders and hamsters)?
{{small poll pop-up:
What is your stance on how to deal with shelter animals?
* agree with PETA: Euthanasia is often the most humane way
* I agree with No-Kill Hampton Roads: Euthanasia is almost never the answer.
* I’m somewhere in the middle of the two groups
* Not sure}}
12:20
Tracey Finch@TraceyFinch3RT @peta: Does “No-Kill” mean “No Help” for animals? Live debate w/ PETA’s Senior VP happening NOW! Join the conversation: http://t.co/4tV6…
12:20
Debra Griggs: Tiffany, while the focus of No Kill Hampton Roads is on dogs and cats, there is a wonderful network of specialized rescue groups that serve the animals you have named. We support life affirming approaches for all animals.
12:20
Comment From K
Debra: will you address JR’s question Comment From JR This question is for Daphna Nachminovitch: I’ve heard that the “no-kill” movement is responsible for the increase in hoarding cases nationwide. Is that true and how widespread is this problem?
12:21
Daphna Nachminovitch: Thank you Guest – Most of the animals we euthanize have health and/or behavioral issues, indeed. This is not a surprise since we primarily serve animals who have been deemed unadoptable by other shelters and turned away due to limited-admission policies, who have been deprived of everything that’s natural to them and that they need for years and kept chained and isolated, are feral, injured, or terminally ill. You may be surprised to learn that many open-admission shelters actually have to euthanize animals with less problems than the animals we see – because of the sheer volume of animals that come through their open doors every single day. The solution lies in prevention – focusing on the root of the problem, i.e., BIRTHS.
12:21
Comment From Tiffany
For Daphna: Are there any low-cost spay and neuter programs in Hampton Roads?
12:22
Debra Griggs: K, hoarding is an illness completely separate from No Kill initiatives. No Kill does not equal hoarding, nor does No Kill promote hoarding.
12:22
Comment From Guest
Debra, can you give examples on how no kill shelters deal with high intake rather than killing the animals what do they do?
12:24
Corinne Reilly: To see the adoption and euthanasia rate for any shelter in Virginia, go to this state website: http://www.vi.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi
12:24
Daphna Nachminovitch: Excellent question Tiffany, thank you. YES! PETA offers free and low-cost spay/neuter services as do some of our other area open-door shelters, like the Virginia Beach SPCA. PETA never ever turns away a client for lack of funds. We will work with you. We operate 6-7 days every week and we go into disadvantaged areas, from Eastern Shore to Emporia. Please help us spread the word about spaying and neutering. It’s easy to get it done. PETA even helps with door-to-door transport for qualifying people who have fallen on hard times. Spaying and neutering is the single most important thing to do if you want to end euthanasia. Spay or neuter!
12:25
Comment From Amanda
Daphna Nachminovitch: Why is it that some dogs at the VBSPCA are transferd from PETA?
12:29
Daphna Nachminovitch: Thank you Amanda. Our partners at the Virginia Beach SPCA have a gorgeous state of the art shelter with tons of foot traffic and a phenomenal adoption rate, so for the adoptable animals we take in, the SPCA is a wonderful option. PETA helps subsidize medical care for the animals we bring to the SPCA so as not to drain their resources, of course. For example, in the last month we have paid for heartworm treatment for five heartworm positive dogs transferred to the SPCA. We greatly value our life-saving partnership with the open-door Virginia Beach SPCA. Many animals who would have otherwise had little chance of adoption have found forever homes thanks to this collaboration.
12:29
Comment From Tiffany
For Daphna: What happens to animals when they are turned away from no-kill facilities that are full? Where do they end up?
12:30
Corinne Reilly: Thanks for all the great questions, everyone. Both Debra and Daphna are typing away!
12:31
Debra Griggs: Guest, No Kill shelters understand that marketing is the key to finding great homes for animals. Portsmouth Humane Society launched a new foster to adopt program that is ingenious and that is just one example. No Kill shelters are constantly developing programs that engage the public and they start with the basic premise that every animal deserves a home – from that perspective, amazing ideas flow!
12:31
Comment From Steven K.
For Debra- What is your position on placing dogs who have been deemed dangerous or have bitten people and/or attacked/killed other animals. Do you think such dogs can safely be placed or would you agree that euthanasia is a humane option in such situations?
12:33
Comment From nadezhda
I would like to add that Spay HR and the Norfolk SPCA offer low cost spay and neutering services. Also, the Norfolk SPCA offers services for feral cats. I have used all three places (including PeTA) in my TNR work.
12:33
Daphna Nachminovitch: Sad and good question Tiffany. Animals turned away from shelters often face a gruesome fate. Some have been intentionally killed (run over, tied to train tracks, shot) or abandoned (even in the shelter parking lot!). Some end up given away indiscriminately in dollar store parking lot or “set free” in the country. It is not unusual for PETA to get calls from Hampton Roads residents who have been turned away by the Norfolk SPCA or other shelters that practice closed-door policies in order to manipulate their euthanasia rates. That’s why PETA vigorously opposes appointment systems, admission fees, waiting lists, and other mechanisms designed to keep animals–even those in danger or suffering–out of shelters. Shelters should be safe havens for animals, not send them away and just hope for the best.
12:33
Comment From Eileen
Daphna Nachminovitch Why does PETA support the killing of all pitbulls? That to me is very very wrong to single out a particular breed.
12:35
Debra Griggs: Steven, a generalized answer to that question is inadequate. Every dog must be evaluated and if resources are needed to rehabilitate a dog for a particular stimulus then they must be provided. There are sooooo many incidences where dogs have been provoked and unfairly blamed for an incident and it is dangerous to lump all dogs together assuming that one “solution” is appropriate.
12:35
Comment From Melissa
Debra – can you please give us some examples of “open-admission” shelters that are No Kill?
12:36
Comment From Eileen
Debra – I read that there are now over 130 communities in the US that are open admission and No Kill (Richmond being one) – Do you know if this is correct?
12:37
Daphna Nachminovitch: Thanks Eileen. You have been misinformed! Have a look at our web site for details, but in fact we do more work for pit bulls than any other breed of dog. Hands down the most abused breed on the planet, they are most frequently the recipients of our hands-on services, from spaying and neutering and door-to-door transport to doghouses and straw in winter, toys, and other care. We advocate a mandatory spay/neuter law for pit bulls, and we don’t oppose breed-specific measures to keep them safe (since they are the most common breed in animal shelters today and are undeniably tricky to place), but we have always advocated a grandfather clause for pit bulls who are kept inside as part of the family, spayed/neutered, and well cared for. By the way one of the dogs we currently have for adoption is a tall lanky pit bull mix puppy. If you know anyone who would offer her a first class home, please email us at adopt@peta.org. Thanks Eileen.
12:38
Comment From Will
Daphna: do you think that the current shelter system in Norfolk is working? It seems like no-kill is a progressive sheltering option.
12:39
Debra Griggs: Melissa and Eileen, I will answer you folks together since there is a similarity to your questions. Actually, Eileen, I believe the number of No Kill communities is greater. The last time I checked it was closer to 200. Melissa, here are a few: Amelia, Charlottesville, Arlington, King George, Powhatan, Lynchburg, Orange County and, of course, Portsmouth. Note that in some communities, No Kill is achieved by a partnership between the public and private shelter – examples of those communities are Richmond, Fluvanna, and Nelson County.
12:40
Comment From Kelsey S.
To Debra: How do you plan on “marketing” to the public in an effective way that finds good quality homes for animals? Isn’t quality better than quantity if the alternative is abuse?
12:42
Comment From Guest
Debra & Daphna: Congratulations on getting animal issues on the front page! I’d love to see both sides work together on improving the lives of animals rather than shutting each other down. (I love you both!) Do you think you will ever be able to come together on this?
12:43
Daphna Nachminovitch: Thank you Will. There is always room for improvement, no doubt, and for collaboration between entities. There are ways everyone can work together toward lowering intake–and therefore euthanasia–rates, without leaving animals in danger. The Norfolk city shelter has turned around significantly since the disastrous conditions of 2007, which were due to relentless pressure on the city to simply stop euthanizing animals without putting in measures to address the source of the problem – our own community. Progressive policies are vital no doubt, but they must treat animals as individuals, not numbers, and carefully consider what is best for each and every one. PETA’ s focus is prevention – a “no-birth” community where no animals are born into homelessness. The way to achieve that is education, legislation, and sterilization!
12:44
Debra Griggs: Kelsey, the basic premise of the No Kill movement is that most people are good. If you start with that belief, the world does truly open up for possibilities for homes for dogs and cats. For decades, we have made it so hard to adopt an animal from a shelter, only to euthanize the animal. That is so backwards when you consider the damage we have done to the animals and the negative experience too many folks have had at a shelter. No Kill communities trust their citizens and we should do the same in Hampton Roads. It means more animals live!
12:45
Corinne Reilly: I’ve gotten a number of emails from readers since the story was published asking how to get in touch with No-Kill Hampton Roads. Here is their website: http://nokillhr.org/
12:45
Daphna Nachminovitch: Hi Guest – love you too :) whoever you are. Debra and I are working together on the city’s animal advisory board, and I am going to corner Debra into going in the field with me very soon so that we can work together even closer. We all want the same thing – an end to animal homelessness, and I speak just for me of course but feel confident that we can all find common ground for the benefit of the animals and our community.
12:46
Debra Griggs: Guest, I hope we can! No Kill Hampton Roads is committed to inclusiveness and we welcome the opportunity to work with all organizations and people who support our work. We are grateful for the spay/neuter services that PETA provides to the community and on the issue of spay/neuter, I think I can say we are in total agreement!
12:46
Comment From Robin
To Daphna: PETA’s 90% kill rate has to be unacceptable to all, no matter how one feels about the no-kill question. What is PETA doing to increase their “live” rate?
12:46
Comment From Amanda
Derba Griggs: What happens if a shelter is full, and some one comes with a pet to give up? Do you deny the pet, or do you euthanasia a dog/cat to make room for as new pet?
12:48
Comment From Guest
There is a huge online community that continually shares photos and information about animals up for adoption – all defined by shelter, city and state. We all just hit “share” and every day there are so many that are saved. Even urgent and special needs animals. Excellent networking going on out there to keep these animals from being killed.
12:50 {{picture posted of Debra Griggs answering questions during chat}}
12:51
Daphna Nachminovitch: Hi Robin – Thank you. Numbers alone never tell the real story. I promise you that if you saw the animals we serve, percentages would become meaningless. Each animal deserves to be considered as an individual. PETA is out there on the front so that we and all other shelters in Hampton Roads and beyond have LESS animals to deal with. Imagine how many MORE animals Hampton Roads shelters would have to serve if PETA hadn’t sterilized 95,000 plus so far? That’s why we sink resources into prevention.
12:51
Comment From Rose
Why does PETA never partipate or hold adopt-a-thons?
12:53
Debra Griggs: Amanda, every situation is different. One seasoned shelter director told this story. The practice in her shelter, when someone wanted to relinquish an animal, was to simply take it. No questions asked. And, yes, if there was no space, an animal was killed to make room She began to consider the No Kill approach and one day when a woman came to surrender her cat, the shelter director tried something new. The shelter director told the woman that if they took the cat, another cat would have to be killed but if the woman would wait a couple of weeks, they would have space and no animal would be killed. The woman said, no problem, she wasn’t moving into the assisted living (where no pets were allowed) for a month; she’d be glad to wait. And, wait she did. It changed that shelter director’s approach forever. If given a chance, most people will do the right thing. That is what progressive shelters believe!
12:54
Comment From David
For Debra: why are appointments for owners turning animals into a shelter a good idea?
12:54
Daphna Nachminovitch: Hi Rose – we have held our own actually, in the PETA parking lot and dog park, after Katrina, the oil spill, and other occasions – and we would be more than happy to participate in others if/when the opportunity arises. Adopt-a-thons are a great way to find homes for a few animals, but we can’t adopt our way out of the overpopulation and homelessness crisis. We have to get in front of it with prevention, which is something we do every single day. Spay or neuter!
12:57
Debra Griggs: David, thank you for that question. We believe they are good for a number of reasons. It gives the shelter staff an opportunity to spend time with the owner who is surrendering and the animal being surrendered which helps the staff be well informed about choosing a potential new home for the animal. What often happens, however, is that during those appointments, staff discovers the reason for surrender is “fixable” and support can be given to the owner to keep the animal which is a win, win, win.
12:57
Corinne Reilly: We’re about to wrap up. Thanks to everyone who participated today, especially Debra and Daphna. What would each of you like to say in closing?
12:59
Debra Griggs: Thanks to the Virginian Pilot for this opportunity to speak on behalf of No Kill Hampton Roads and our mission to end the killing of healthy, treatable animals in our shelters. We believe Hampton Roads citizens are compassionate and, if given the chance, will step up to help make this a reality!
1:01
Corinne Reilly: Sorry we weren’t able to get to all of the questions today. We got lots!
For more info on No-Kill Hampton Roads: http://nokillhr.org/
And for more info on PETA: http://www.peta.org/
1:01
Daphna Nachminovitch: Thank you to everyone who participated in this online chat, and a BIG thank you to the Virginian Pilot and Corinne Reilly for opening the door for discussion. If people are upset about animal homelessness and euthanasia, as we ALL should be, then they can help. Step up. Never, ever buy an animal from a breeder or pet shop. When you buy, animals die. It really is that simple. It’s math. Always spay/neuter – it’s cheap, it’s easy, it’s best for your animal, and it saves lives. If your animal is sterilized, help your neighbor with theirs. Volunteer at a local shelter, make a difference. Remember that shelter did not create this crisis. We as a society did. So the least we owe animals who are unwanted, discarded, abused, neglected, forgotten, lost, and so on, if adoption is not a feasible option for them, is freedom from suffering. No one wants to have to euthanize any animals, most of all the people who have dedicated their lives to helping them. So if you care, roll up your sleeves and come help us make the world a safer, kinder place for animals. You can make a difference.
{{END}}
{{POLL ANSWERS POSTED}}
12:18
What is your stance on how to deal with shelter animals?
agree with PETA: Euthanasia is often the most humane way
( 41% )
I agree with No-Kill Hampton Roads: Euthanasia is almost never the answer.
( 48% )
I’m somewhere in the middle of the two groups
( 10% )
Not sure
( 0% )
