I got the most recently completed K20 X1/9 from Matt Brannon (and Jonathan Park) from Midwest Bayless a few weeks ago and promised to do a similar format write-up as Pete Whitstone did for his beautiful X in this thread: http://xwebforums.org/showthread.php?t=14444
Matt’s picture thread on my car is below, so no photos in *this* thread:
http://xwebforums.org/showthread.php?t=22130
I thought it might be of even more value to include Pete’s original text so that two side by side points of view could be seen more easily, plus his post was so good it can only help to have it twice. The comparisons are meant ONLY to show the variances that can occur in each car, as there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat.
I think I was # 6 on the MWB K20 list and each one is either a little different from the others, or a LOT different. This thread then gives my observations after 1500 miles with the car and uses Pete’s excellent (better written!) writeup to give two viewpoints on the same process. Hope this is OK Pete!
In each case Pete’s comments are first and mine follow the ==============. To date I've put 1000 miles on the car since delivery.
Handling
The car is not that different than stock in the handling department, and there’s not really a lot of reasons that it should feel different. Larger wheels and tires, stiffer springs, and a front anti-roll bar are about all that separate this car from stock. Yes the car has coil-overs, but that’s not something you will “feel”. I suspect Matt dialed in a bit more camber and a bit less caster than stock, but probably not by much. So the car handles essentially like anybody’s X1/9.
I thought the 300# springs all around were going to be very stiff, but the ride is nowhere near harsh. Nice and firm, and well damped by the Bilsteins (rear) and KYB’s (currently in front, may go to the Bilsteins up there too but the KYBs actually handle very nicely up there). I think retaining the stock rubber strut mounts (new, from Obert/Plaia) helps a lot with the ride. Spherical bearings on CC plates would be far less forgiving, no doubt.
When pushing hard through a corner, the rear breaks loose first, but it is controllable with either/both the throttle or the steering wheel. I haven’t pushed It hard a lot yet, I’m still getting used to the power, and haven’t had it out on “fun” roads a lot yet.
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On my car the handling changed quite a bit, making it almost a different car and my setup is different from Pete’s.
When Matt received my X I think he said it handled like “a wandering pig”. The bushings were worn out or shot all around, especially left rear, and there were control arm issues as well. Plus I had just hit and killed a Bambi.
The car had the Koni coilover treatment done, with 200 lbs in the front and 300 in the rear, which I believe is the “softest” setting. The Koni’s are the single-adjustment yellow version, so had the added benefit of matching the yellow outside color.
Roller bearing pivots from MWB were added too and have made the steering feel lighter than stock. A front sway bar was added and Jonathan did a really nice job custom mounting this, without penetrating the front trunk and so did not lose any frunk space. The ride is far firmer than pre-MWB, and that’s very, very good on normal and hard driving, not so good when driving over large bridge seams on the highway, or rough roads. You’ll feel the bumps far more now.
But on a good road the car goes where you point it, and with far less effort than before. I drove a Ferrari 308 GTS for a short time, and this car now handles better than the 308 did. Overall there is a dramatic improvement over the original car sent to MWB. The car is very planted, and tracks better than new. Most importantly it still has the balance and agility that we’ve all come to love in the X, and like Pete says, it still feels like an X1/9 and not a Honda. There’s just more “X-ness” now, and a feeling of safety and solidness that wasn’t present before. I have driven the car hard through some corners and have not yet had it break away at all, but I’m still trying!
Tires/Wheels
The car has Progressive 5-spokes on it in 15x6, and wears 195/50-15s in front and 205/50/15’s in the rear. The tires are out just a tad too far, I need to work out a new spacer arrangement. As such, the suspension has to be set up about an inch higher than I would like. Matt had it at the correct height but tire contact was too much an issue so had to raise it. The tires will still rub with the current arrangement if you try hard enough, but it’s only happened once, over a big frost heave. Like I said, I just need to work out the spacer arrangement better. The fronts exhibit some tire shake at 70 and above, so I also need to get a precision balance job done. Note that I supplied all the tire/wheel hardware to Matt, and he installed it as is. The work left to be done here is because I should have done better homework.
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Here again I had a different setup than Pete, I have 15X7 Rota Shakotan’s all around, with 205/50/15 Yokahama S-Drives all around. I originally ordered Toyo’s but after some issues on ordering Matt offered the Yoko’s, and they’ve been great. So much better than the 13" Sumitomo HTR's that were on the car.
The tires are right at the edge of “nearly sticking out too far” almost matchbox-car style, but Matt and team did a great job rolling the fenders and even on full turns there’s been no rubbing. The original plan was to install 195/45 or 50/15’s up front with 15x6 wheels, to avoid the rubbing. However we decided to stick with the same wheels and tires all around since there was no issue. The car looks a little Speed Racer-ish now, which is fine by me, and Matt set the stance to absolute perfection.
I never liked the stance on my X after the bumpers were removed, the front pointed uphill. I always wanted a neutral stance, figuring a downhill stance was not possible. Matt lowered the front, while still maintaining good clearance. I’ve not bottomed out at all, nor hit the high end of the shocks, and the car looks aggressive and points slightly downhill.
Brakes
The rears are stock, while the fronts are Beta disks and the PB Racing caliper bracket modification carrying the stock caliper. Beta semi-metallic pads are used. Again, not all that different a feel from stock, although I think the larger disk will absorb a lot more repeated hard stops without fading than the stock disks would handle. I have not tried to lock them up yet so I don’t have a good feel for what the combination is like at the limit.
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Again very different from Pete’s car: mine has the WHOA brakes and Wildwood’s on the front. Rears are stock. I never liked the X’s stock front brakes, they felt a little vague and fragile to me even with the old 1500 engine. Matt also cautioned against staying stock with the increase in power with the K20, and I agreed completely. The WHOA’s are great, much more solid feel. I did a few “panic stops” with them and felt no fade at all and was able to lock them up only once, with no drama at all. I strongly recommend them based upon my personal experience so far. I’ve read some divergent opinions on them, but to date they have been better than what I hoped for. I had hoped for just good brakes that I didn’t have to think about, wondering if I really was going to stop as well as the other cars out there on the roads. Now I don’t give them a second thought. The Wildwoods are black and so match my color scheme of black and yellow as well.
Instrumentation
The cluster looks like a stock gauge setup with a couple of exceptions. The first is that the hole for the odometer rollback is plugged. The other is that the stock speedo and tach have been replaced with a couple nice looking units with black faces and white markings. An orange needle indicates, and a small red LED readout gives mileage. Speaking of LEDs, at night the whole thing glows a pleasing pearl white that is brighter than the stock lighting. If not for the red LED readout, you might think it was all stock if you weren’t familiar with X’s. As I understand it, Bob Brown built it. Thanks, Bob!
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Pretty much the same as Pete here. I miss the trip odometer and do not like the RED LEDS’s as well as another color. To me red on a dash means something bad. I mentioned this to Bob Brown and he was surprised. (Maybe I AM being a little anal here) I had the oil pressure light upgraded to have both an "idiot" light and now a working meter, and I added a voltmeter to the dash. It has big blue LED numbers that detail to the hundredth of a volt. I did not know that the numbers were going to be constantly changing, even when the condition of the car remains unchanged. So I learned something there.
With the red speedo/tach needles and odometer, green needles on the rest of the stock gauges and the blue lights my dash has a much more colorful Christmas tree look to it now. My cluster was the original all-green 1974 with the cool “cutouts” on the speed and tach, and I miss them, but the new back lit Marshall speed and tach are very, very legible (though with a slight italic font) and much brighter than stock. I had had Bob Brown put LEDS into my dash a year or two ago and the Marshalls are far brighter than even the enhanced LED lights are. I can’t imagine how much different the new gauges would be versus the stock dash lights, so if you are considering this conversion I’d look into bright dash LEDS as the first step. Be aware that they don't shut off and the rheostat dimmer no longer works so the dash lights stay on always.
Also my heartfelt thanks Bob, this makes the car supremely livable and safer at night.
Shifter
The shifter definitely feels tighter that the stock setup. The range of movement is abbreviated compared to stock, even though there are more gears to grab (4 vertical gates vs. the stockers 3). The stock shifter feels rubbery and vague by comparison, and can be moved a lot even while in gear. Not so with the Honda setup, as I said there is not much movement, but there really doesn’t need to be. The pattern is very narrow and tight, but there is no problem finding the gear you want, once you get used to it. The first time I drove it I couldn’t find fifth after several attempts, and thought something was wrong. Matt calmly advised that I try not moving the lever so far to the right, and sure enough there was fifth, just a hair over from third. The overall feel of the shifter is very tight and precise. When the car is cold it can be almost too stiff, but after everything warms up it’s great. The clutch pedal movement feels shorter than stock, as far as I remember. And I believe Matt said it actually is shorter. But it is even with the brake pedal, and clutch take-up is smooth and easily controlled.
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Again I’d agree completely with Pete here. The shifter is dramatically shorter, with a narrow side to side traverse, and the throws are very short as well. I originally wondered if I actually had shifted at times since the distances of the throws were so short. I had major difficulties adjusting to reverse, and was afraid that I’d hit reverse when on the highway trying to hit 6th. Matt patiently explained that there is a reverse-lockout on the shifter and my concern was unnecessary.
I found that the clunk sound of reverse is vastly different from other shifting so the lockout and sound difference are what I go by. Clutch is definitely shorter and engages higher in the arc than on stock. I like it, but with my stereo speaker cabinets taking up the left foot resting place I sometimes have to think to find a place to rest my left foot. BTW I love the new shortened and short-throw shifter.
Engine
The Honda engine is silky smooth in operation. At idle, it tends to shake the car a little, which is most evident in the dash and if you watch the sun visors. Down low, the power is not all that noticeable. If I stayed out of the throttle and kept it below 4000 rpm, I would have no trouble convincing you that it was just a strong 1.5 with a loud exhaust back there. But who drives an X like that?
Power is strong from off idle on up, but the engine really starts to come into its own at around 4k. It pulls strong through the 5’s, and if you kept it below 6k it would be a very strong X. But the K20 engine really was built for the 5.8k to 8.0+k range. When the VTEC system engages at 5800, the exhaust note changes drastically and it feels like the JATOs ignited. The pull is just unbelievable! Here’s where things happen fast because the engine is pulling so strong that you run out of revs pretty fast – the engine can sweep the 2400 or so RPMs on the VTEC very quickly. But if you take it up to 8k, an upshift will land you above 5800 and so still in VTEC territory. Repeat as necessary, but you will quickly run out of legal speed limit.
This is simply the engine this car should have come from the factory with.
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Much agreement here and Pete has said it better than I could or will. My idle was set higher at around 1100 (due to the ability to do so with the Hondata ECU which adds 40 hp to 240) and does not shake at all. The engine has superb power off the line, well before VTEC turf. It is the strongest X I’ve ever owned and I have owned a brand new 74, 75, 76 and 86. There is just no comparison with a 1300 or 1500, even new ones.
My engine had dual DCNF 40’s on them and a Sierra head (but with low compression in one cylinder) but isn’t in the same class as this iteration engine. When the VTEC does engage (mine is set at 5000 I think) there is a violence to the engine that was shocking at first. Matt drove it and I was a passenger and the first time the VTEC fired my head snapped back hard. Now I’m happily used to it
Engine sound is radically different and when pushed the forward thrust is faster than anything I’ve driven before…and that includes a 1969 327 Camaro, a 1969 GTO Goat, a Lotus Europa, and the aforementioned Ferrari. I am rumored (rumored only of course) to have been on a completely deserted road on the Cape and very, very quickly hit 120 MPH for a second, then backed off, scared sh*tless. There was more power left too, the car was still very, very eager at that point (or so the rumor goes)…I do not want to drive that fast, but the capability is there.
In fact I want to mostly drive slowly. I want my car to be like Pete’s, a daily driver. I wanted the engine to be as quiet as possible, and Matt even had a truck exhaust put on it to meet that need. I can listen to music or have a cell phone conversation easily in the car. Cruising at 60 MPH in 6th gear produces 2800 rpm, at 70 I am right on the line at 3000 to maybe 3050 rpms.
But I am well aware that there is a demon in the back bedroom, just waiting. Today I had the pleasure of following a 2013 BMW who accelerated “hard” from 0-70, and stayed right with him easily, and the look on his face was priceless.
Cooling
So far the car is very well behaved in this area, even though you may have heard about our heat wave down here. I just ran around for an hour in stop and go traffic in brutal 107 degree heat, and it never got above 2 ticks above the 190 mark. The highest I have ever seen it is 3 ticks above, but it will not stay up there. It’s slow to rise and quick to fall. Spending the money for the flex-a-lite dual fan and shroud package was well worth it.
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Pete said it all here, no issues at all even on 100 degree plus days, even in traffic. The thermostat is set at 200 in these cars, not 190, and so just over the ½ way mark. I have averaged 210 or so in hard summer driving in a lot of traffic, including a 130 mile trip back from Provincetown.
The fan (I got the Vicks Auto Sports Dual Fan system) stays on more than I would like, but I’ve never ever been in danger of overheating, even in dead-stop Cape Cod summer traffic. When the temp falls, it falls much quicker than in a stock X, no idea why, but mine acts the same as Pete’s.
Overall value
I intend to use this car as my daily driver. The total cost of the car and conversion was less than you could get almost any new car for, and certainly any new car that you would look forward to driving. Bang for the buck is pretty well unparalleled unless you want to buy a pig-in-a-poke used sports car with a lot of mileage. I’m not quite that brave.
The Honda engine is a low mileage unit that will be good for at least 100k more, and has a large aftermarket support. Matt and Jonathans engineering are top-notch and everything looks well executed. Most anything that goes wrong with the rest of an X1/9 I can stumble through fixing, unlike new cars. There are a few niggling issues to be worked out yet, but with support from Matt and crew I’m sure they’ll be resolved shortly.
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Mine is to be a daily driver too. I wanted a “modern X1/9” and feel that I got that. I even got the car delivered on time at FFO, though it went back with two issues I wanted redone. I do not know how this car will be in six months or a year, or in 30,000 miles. The longevity remains to be seen, but I’m very happy for now. My car ended up around the same cost as a new Fiat Abarth. I actually removed some items from the list due to costs, but overall got 99% of what I wanted. That’s pretty darn good!
I even had a lot more extra things done too: new carpet, dying, stereo removal/replacement, exhaust, new gauges in addition to the stock conversion, new paint, tires, wheels, AC, accident repair etc. A word on the AC: Matt used stock X1/9 and some VW parts for this which led to a limitation. In the end the AC is either off or on, with little ability to regulate temperature, other than fan speed. I would have loved a more adjustable temperature control, but I have air now, and ice cold air to boot. I’m not complaining
Summary
To steal a phrase I heard somewhere, “If you have the means, I highly recommend it”.
A big thanks to the crew at Midwest Bayless for their work!
Pete
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I think this was worth it, and given the opportunity I’d do it again. Like Pete I have a few side issues, some with nothing to do with the conversion, but all seem to be things I can do myself. This weekend I am prepping for my first big car show,
Jonathan Pack is a superb mechanic, and has not only the competency to do the job right, but has a vision of what can be done and tries to get each car a little better than the one before. We all know how good both Matt and Marnie are to us too. On a big project, they are even better.
A huge thanks to Mad Matt and Longitudinal! You've made my dream X.
Jim