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Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2014.07.29

2014-07-29

Created page with "Simulator_User_Group {| | Prev 2014.07.22 | Next 2014.08.05 |} == List of Spe…"

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{|

| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2014.07.22|Prev 2014.07.22]]

| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2014.08.05|Next 2014.08.05]]

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== List of Speakers ==

{|

|Adamburp Adamczyk

|Callak Skytower

|-

|Forum discussion

|Inara Pey

|-

|Jenna Felton

|Kennylex Luckless

|-

|Oz Linden

|Policy suggestions

|-

|Qie Niangao

|Rex Cronon

|-

|Simon Linden

|Talarus Luan

|-

|Visitor Detector

|}

== Transcript ==

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone - let's get started</nowiki>

[12:01] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Today is Hamster Day, if you want .. they're free on the marketplace</nowiki>

[12:01] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: I do a hamster corner with you</nowiki>

[12:01] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Are they edible?</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, we can have a group shot at the end if we get a few :)</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: This week the maintenance code that was on the RC channels was promoted</nowiki>

[12:02] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi jenna</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here : </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2014-07-28/td-p/2788002

[12:02] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Baker Linden is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:03] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Baker Linden</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The RC servers won't be updated this week</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we might have something next week but I'm not sure</nowiki>

[12:03] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Nalates Urriah is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:03] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Oz Linden is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:03] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Nalates Urriah</nowiki>

[12:03] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Oz Linden</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Next week I will be on vacation and I'll try to get someone to host the user group</nowiki>

[12:04] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> volunteers baker</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The one after I may miss as well, but will try to find someone if that's the case</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: (and the hamster count is now 3!)</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for updates, so the floor is open for questions or topics</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hamster?</nowiki>

[12:05] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: o,h baker - I forgot dude - happy birthday for tomorrow dude!</nowiki>

[12:05] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hamster avatars?</nowiki>

[12:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It the hamster day today, almost officeial.</nowiki>

[12:06] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: official*</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: you may notice a few of them, Rex. They're free on marketplace, and have been out for a while</nowiki>

[12:06] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yes, the endeavor to become hors d'oeuvres when hungry Dragons are about. >.></nowiki>

[12:07] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: ok. hamester kind of cute, but unless there is a ironhamster i think i will stay the same:)</nowiki>

[12:07] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Callak Skytower is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:08] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: First time visitor to your land: Callak Skytower</nowiki>

[12:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, a few questions about the experience beta.. a) how's it going, and b) when will there be a next round for people who missed the cut?</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I hope to run a test this Thursday at the beta user group for group chat, fwiw</nowiki>

[12:08] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: sorry for hamsters, but Talarus' Avatar is my favorite here</nowiki>

[12:08] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: but hamsters look cute, no question :)</nowiki>

[12:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: \o/</nowiki>

[12:08] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:09] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Hello everyone!</nowiki>

[12:09] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Greetings, Callak</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: lol ... maybe I should get a contest board</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hello callak</nowiki>

[12:09] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Welcome, Callak</nowiki>

[12:10] Oz Linden<nowiki>: Talarus... we're getting some good feedback from the beta so far. We don't have a timetable for when/if we'll need another round</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: have you figured out pricing on experiences yet, lol</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I don't have any updates on the experience tools ... the blog post that went out last week (?) is the most recent I know of</nowiki>

[12:10] Oz Linden<nowiki>: We don't discuss pricing here... not our area</nowiki>

[12:11] Oz Linden<nowiki>: I believe they have, but I don't know details</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I can guarantee you people will desire experience keys more for the database backing than applying it to gaming</nowiki>

[12:11] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Well, I'd love to have participated, but having oral surgery and then a planned out of town trip kinda delayed my request. :-/</nowiki>

[12:11] Simon Linden<nowiki>: we can't talk about any details like that until they're officially announced</nowiki>

[12:11] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: that said, I think pricing should be significant in that respect</nowiki>

[12:12] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Ron Khondji</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I really need access to grid wide keys for what I'm needing to do, heh</nowiki>

[12:12] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Ron Khondji is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:12] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: those should be more expensive too imo</nowiki>

[12:12] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Experience keys aren't grid-wide? O.o</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: not the ones that have been issued, heh</nowiki>

[12:13] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: "Grid-wide" experience keys are very special, though...</nowiki>

[12:13] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: How are they limited?</nowiki>

[12:13] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: by sim?</nowiki>

[12:13] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: they don't work anywhere that doesn't explicitly Allow them</nowiki>

[12:13] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: these work fine across the grid, but only on parcels that allow them</nowiki>

[12:14] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Duckie Dickins</nowiki>

[12:14] Oz Linden<nowiki>: The keys we're issuing now must be whitelisted in each region to work there</nowiki>

[12:14] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Duckie Dickins is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:14] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Ahh. I presume that's a setting in the project viewer region dialog?</nowiki>

[12:14] Oz Linden<nowiki>: A 'grid-wide' key would work anywhere it has not been blacklisted</nowiki>

[12:15] Oz Linden<nowiki>: Yes... the project viewer has the management UI for those</nowiki>

[12:15] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Becky Nosferatu is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:15] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: the project viewer has a UI for what you allow/forget/block and one for parcels for what they allow or block and one for estates what they trust/allow/block</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: this key stuff looks very expensive:(</nowiki>

[12:16] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: First time visitor to your land: Becky Nosferatu</nowiki>

[12:16] Oz Linden<nowiki>: expensive?</nowiki>

[12:16] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: 100usd isn't it?</nowiki>

[12:17] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Where are you seeing pricing? Why on earth should this have a price, if pathfinding didn't? It's a *lot* heavier weight</nowiki>

[12:17] Kallista Arliss (kallista.destiny)<nowiki>: Welcome back Whirly</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: lol</nowiki>

[12:17] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I would expect that there would be different tiers, depending on different features/resource usage.</nowiki>

[12:17] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Are you thinking of the skilled gaming costs, Rex? I don't think there has been any price or not mentioned for experience tools</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: you're attaching database read/writing to every key</nowiki>

[12:17] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Like, if I don't need the key/value database stuff.</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: pricing should have db sizing options/pricing</nowiki>

[12:18] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: if you don't need the db then thats the cheapest tier, heh</nowiki>

[12:18] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Oh, I guess I assumed the KB stuff would be limited to small size anyway.</nowiki>

[12:19] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hmm. so the 100 is just for the skilled games?</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: db sizing is variable afaik</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I know what the first rounders got access to, but I'm sure theres larger sizing</nowiki>

[12:19] Oz Linden<nowiki>: skilled gaming has nothing to do with experience tools</nowiki>

[12:19] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: and imo, its generous as it is</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The gaming pricing is on the web ... and here's my chance to paste links:</nowiki>

[12:19] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Skill gaming annoucement: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Coming-Soon-Skill-Gaming-in-Second-Life/ba-p/2771080

[12:19] FAQ<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ

[12:19] Wiki<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants

[12:19] Gaming Policy <nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy

[12:19] Policy suggestions<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Suggesting_a_policy_change

[12:19] Forum discussion<nowiki>: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Skill-Gaming-Policy-Thread/td-p/2771090

[12:20] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: lol, Simon</nowiki>

[12:20] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Sovereign Engineer is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:20] Oz Linden<nowiki>: I believe there is provision for increasing the db size for an experience, but I have no idea what if any price would go with that</nowiki>

[12:20] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: Returning visitor to your land: Sovereign Engineer</nowiki>

[12:20] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: How many times do you get to paste that a day? :D</nowiki>

[12:20] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I must not have read the XP announcement very well. I didn't realize therw was cost involved at all.</nowiki>

[12:20] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's just once or twice a week, Whirly ... at user groups</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: Qie there is no official announcement on cost yet</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: but I can bet you there will be</nowiki>

[12:21] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There has been no cost (or not) announced with the XP tools</nowiki>

[12:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: If so, that will be the end of my interest in it, that's for sure. It's cool, but it's not *that* cool.</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: depends on your needs Qie</nowiki>

[12:22] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hmm. it seems there will be a cost associated with gaming keys</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Lots of caveats with that, too. What happens to products which use an experience that stops getting paid for?</nowiki>

[12:22] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I suppose, but this is SL Classic we're talking about here... how much time would we have left to generate a business from it?</nowiki>

[12:22] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: (hypothetical question.. don't need to answer)</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I'm sure experiences will be used in SL2</nowiki>

[12:23] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: its too early to worry about that though</nowiki>

[12:23] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: I have some security concerns with group-collaborative experience projects, but would have to learn more about it to formulate them better.</nowiki>

[12:24] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It's certainly going to be interesting to see how they are used</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: be careful who you give access too, and what kind of abilities you apply to scripts you give to others</nowiki>

[12:24] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yes, exactly.</nowiki>

[12:25] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Right, it really is giving out a bundle of permissions so this is about trusting the content and people that build it</nowiki>

[12:25] Oz Linden<nowiki>: you can't give a script to someone else and have it retain its experience identity</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I have all kinds of ideas for usage</nowiki>

[12:25] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Unfortunately, no amount of care and trust is foolproof against people going rogue and ruining your work, and that could get very expensive fast.</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: some or outside the box imo</nowiki>

[12:26] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: You cant? I thought the scripts kept the exp identitity unless recompiled</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Can you give an object with an experience script set in it to someone else?</nowiki>

[12:26] Oz Linden<nowiki>: no</nowiki>

[12:26] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: what Whirls said</nowiki>

[12:26] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I haven't tried, but that's what I understood, too.</nowiki>

[12:26] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Hmmmm. You have a bug then :D</nowiki>

[12:26] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: So, how do you give out products with experiences?</nowiki>

[12:26] Oz Linden<nowiki>: The experience properties are tied to the experience owner - they won't work in objects owned by anyone else</nowiki>

[12:27] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: or sell products or whatever</nowiki>

[12:27] Simon Linden<nowiki>: uhhh ... what do you mean by "script set" ? You can, for example, do the temp attach thing and those scripts will run. You can't hand something that has the permissions granted and expect those to transfer</nowiki>

[12:28] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: not the permissions granted, but the association with an experience.</nowiki>

[12:28] Oz Linden<nowiki>: You can empower members of a group to use an experience id</nowiki>

[12:28] User Group Visitor Detector<nowiki>: MarianaMuniz789 Resident is at the user group</nowiki>

[12:28] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: talarus. it is my understanding that u have to sell the code so that the experience key owner compiles your code with his/hers experience key</nowiki>

[12:28] Nal (nalates.urriah)<nowiki>: I remember Dolphin Linden telling us that scripts with experience permissions would work until a new owner without experience keys recompiled them. Is that not so?</nowiki>

[12:29] Visitor Detector<nowiki>: First time visitor to your land: MarianaMuniz789 Resident</nowiki>

[12:29] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: OK, so if I have a group experience project, and someone goes rogue, I can boot them out of the group, and anything they've made/compiled for the experience will stop working?</nowiki>

[12:29] Oz Linden<nowiki>: but if I take my key and compile a script with it and put that script in a cube, and then I transfer that cube to you - it will no longer be able to use the experience capabilities</nowiki>

[12:29] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: What Nal said</nowiki>

[12:29] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: I thought we understood that a creator could associate a product with their experience and distribute it. That as an alternative to distributing the script for others to compile into their own experiences.</nowiki>

[12:29] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: ok, just tried</nowiki>

[12:30] Bear Hunt Start<nowiki>: Bear Quest Start touched by MarianaMuniz789 Resident</nowiki>

[12:30] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I handed an alt my exp compiled scripted object and they rezzed it and was able to use it to read/create/update/delete and read db data with it</nowiki>

[12:30] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, I wouldn't expect just scripts in inventory to pass on experience settings, as they have no state associated with them</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:31] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: I was wondering, I had a different current topic I wished to discuss regarding server communication failures with link-sets larger than 34 prims, and if you were aware of a problem with it. I have a demo of this I can rez.</nowiki>

[12:31] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: well, scripts in inventory cannot even be associated with an experience.</nowiki>

[12:31] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Callak ... is that with a very large object? I know there are some issues about llListen() and the prim location vs. the root location</nowiki>

[12:32] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: No... does not involve listen, it's primitive property change fails.</nowiki>

[12:32] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: This block should turn completely invisible when clicked.</nowiki>

[12:32] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Avatars with prims that use like alpha swap and some prims don't update?</nowiki>

[12:33] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Correct</nowiki>

[12:33] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: It's not just avatars.</nowiki>

[12:33] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Its </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-1786<nowiki> and linked issues.</nowiki>

[12:33] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: And it seems to only affect large link sets now.</nowiki>

[12:33] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: The odd thing is, I see it just fine while running Exodus, but if I swap to Firestorm or LLs default client, I get the bug.</nowiki>

[12:33] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, it's really noticeable with high-prim avs with lots of alpha-swap prims, thou</nowiki>

[12:33] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: But Callak and I fiddled with it yesterday and he sees it on all clients.</nowiki>

[12:34] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: This uses only: llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast and LINK_SET</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Maybe Exodus is based before some Interesting code change?</nowiki>

[12:34] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: This has been a problem for allmost a year now.</nowiki>

[12:34] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: No, because Callak still sees the error on Exodus</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If it is the same bug, it has been around a lllooooonnnnggg time</nowiki>

[12:34] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Yeah it has.</nowiki>

[12:34] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Back when Andrew was working on the interest list project.</nowiki>

[12:34] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yeah, I remember looking into this one ... it's an update issue, I think</nowiki>

[12:34] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Way to long.</nowiki>

[12:35] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: There used to be a problem with updates, it's not a rendering problem. THe incorrect blocks reflect the wrong information if edited.</nowiki>

[12:35] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: That means the viewer is not getting the right information from the server.</nowiki>

[12:35] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: yup</nowiki>

[12:35] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if you turn on "show updates to objects" and do it again, you see there's an update for every single prim</nowiki>

[12:36] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: If the area is left and you return, the block will fix itself.</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: interest list fail.</nowiki>

[12:36] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I _believe_ that flood can cause a packet to get dropped ... at least that's what I remember</nowiki>

[12:36] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: THis only seems to happen in sets larger than 34 prims however.</nowiki>

[12:36] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It's probably a limited update buffer size or something.</nowiki>

[12:36] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Question is why am I seeing it correctly on only Exodus, while Callak sees it on all clients. Led me to believe it might be a card issue, too.</nowiki>

[12:37] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: I'm running an AMD</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: if you make it 33 it never happens?</nowiki>

[12:37] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Not that I have seen altely, it used to happen on less, but not anymore.</nowiki>

[12:37] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: I've seen it happen on less prims, for instance, on the arm of the Seawolf Adult dragon.</nowiki>

[12:37] Simon Linden<nowiki>: this is a nice demo of it ... can you give me a copy of the object?</nowiki>

[12:38] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Yes one moment.</nowiki>

[12:38] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: There was only about... 6 or so prims on that and it would still fail to swap.</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: thanks</nowiki>

[12:38] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: It seemed to start with server version 13.02.15.270481 if that helps.</nowiki>

[12:38] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Did you show the other one, Callak?</nowiki>

[12:38] Simon Linden<nowiki>: wow these hamsters make a lot of updates too</nowiki>

[12:38] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: The only time I ever see it fail on Exodus was just now when you guys were spam clicking it. x3</nowiki>

[12:39] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Cute comes at a cost</nowiki>

[12:39] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: As far as I know we don't do anything "different" in Exodus regarding object update handling or otherwise.</nowiki>

[12:39] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: This is a different one showing the same problem with rotation.</nowiki>

[12:39] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: That's what I thought as well, Sovereign.</nowiki>

[12:40] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: So that's why I think it might also be a hardware difference.</nowiki>

[12:40] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: 5x5x5 is 125 prims :)</nowiki>

[12:40] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: Exodus release is rather old though unless you're on a nightly.</nowiki>

[12:40] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Might be in how the sim is slicing updates to be sent to different viewers?</nowiki>

[12:40] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: That's a smaller one, I can't get it to do it anymore.</nowiki>

[12:40] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: It used to fail too.</nowiki>

[12:40] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I doubt the problem is viewer-side ... I'd put my money on the simulator</nowiki>

[12:40] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I'm on FS and see it update fully every time, although I do see it update across mroe than 1 frame</nowiki>

[12:40] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: I'm on the development version; 14.4.17.32538</nowiki>

[12:40] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (looks to me that hamster *wings* are update-happy)</nowiki>

[12:41] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: There the small one just failed for me.</nowiki>

[12:41] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Im 99% sure its server. When it was first reported on 13.02.15.270481 I checked on previous version and it wouldnt repro.</nowiki>

[12:41] Simon Linden<nowiki>: the servers dont' to anything different based on your viewer version. Your draw distance and camera settings are what affects your updates the most</nowiki>

[12:41] Oz Linden<nowiki>: I'm not clear on whether or not I'm seeing the problem ... I have no way to know what I _should_ be seeing</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: If some of the cubes don't disappear</nowiki>

[12:41] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Oz, what it should be doing is moving all together and disappearing completely</nowiki>

[12:41] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: They all should be there or invisible</nowiki>

[12:41] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: The bug is that some aren't.</nowiki>

[12:42] Oz Linden<nowiki>: you've left a lot out of that description</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: It's more noticeable on high-prim avs, like big quad dragons.</nowiki>

[12:42] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: I don't even think those are sending as many object updates as my tail.</nowiki>

[12:42] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Oz, the repro on </nowiki>https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4380<nowiki> works</nowiki>

[12:42] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[12:42] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Using alpha-swap to hide/show parts in various positions, you see random floating prims</nowiki>

[12:42] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Sorry, I'm playing a game with my son. (???) Some of the prims in the objects randomly don't disappear</nowiki>

[12:43] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Or in the case of the upper object, they don't move.</nowiki>

[12:43] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: The smaller one is all of them changing colors</nowiki>

[12:43] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: (Heh, Sov, yeah, I think your tail gets the prize for most-intense updates)</nowiki>

[12:43] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: I've seen worse.</nowiki>

[12:43] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:43] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: hair :P</nowiki>

[12:43] Simon Linden<nowiki>: that tail is going crazy with updates</nowiki>

[12:43] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: The bug happens at random too, it's various different objects that choose to fail for changing transparent.</nowiki>

[12:44] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: Simon that's what ya get when you have fancy script-animated things :P</nowiki>

[12:44] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Hope that explained a bit better, Oz.</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep :)</nowiki>

[12:44] Oz Linden<nowiki>: not really</nowiki>

[12:44] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Its also more likely to repro up at altitude, go figure heh</nowiki>

[12:44] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: I love the mesh tails out there.</nowiki>

[12:44] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'll bet it gets worse if you lower your bandwidth down</nowiki>

[12:44] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: Yup. :D</nowiki>

[12:44] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: if only we had that viewer side animated alpha feature I filed, heh</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: would be better than constant cycling of alpha updates</nowiki>

[12:45] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Oz, do you see the block in front of me?</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: scripted cycling ftm</nowiki>

[12:45] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: For me, it completely goes transparent; the bug is that not all of them do when they change to transparent.</nowiki>

[12:46] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: For some reason I don't have the problem on Exodus, but other clients I do. Callak on the other hand, has them all the time fail to turn transparent.</nowiki>

[12:46] Oz Linden<nowiki>: I see a bunch of red blocks ... some cubes, some not</nowiki>

[12:46] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: There.</nowiki>

[12:46] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:46] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: Simon look at that.</nowiki>

[12:46] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Yes, they should all change transparent, Oz</nowiki>

[12:46] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: if they don't, they're bugged.</nowiki>

[12:46] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: I remember that guy</nowiki>

[12:47] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: My buddy fade made it :P</nowiki>

[12:47] Oz Linden<nowiki>: here's a good clarity rule - describe what I should see without using any pronouns</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: becky. what function did u say that u r using to change alpha?</nowiki>

[12:47] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: its a bvh animation to lsl-defined skeleton thing</nowiki>

[12:47] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Callak made the script</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: no pronoun games, reminds me of Cinema Sins, heh</nowiki>

[12:47] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: You should see one big block or nothing, not floating bits.</nowiki>

[12:47] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: i mostly see the some cubes, sometimes almost all cubes and sometimes a few cubes are opaque, but never all or none</nowiki>

[12:47] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: I'm not sure what pronoun I'm using that's confusing, sorry. :D</nowiki>

[12:47] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: D:</nowiki>

[12:47] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: also typo</nowiki>

[12:48] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Oz, click the big red linset of small cubes. Each time you click it, it should toggle between ALL cubes being solid red or ALL cubes being transparent. If any cubes do not change state, you are seeing the bug</nowiki>

[12:48] Oz Linden<nowiki>: ah... I have been seeing a large red cube appearing and disappearing</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: same</nowiki>

[12:48] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: and everytime diferent constellations</nowiki>

[12:48] Oz Linden<nowiki>: so perhaps I'm not seeing the probem?</nowiki>

[12:48] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: OK! so yeah, you're seeing it how it should be</nowiki>

[12:48] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It is magic.</nowiki>

[12:48] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Yes, some do and some don't it seems.</nowiki>

[12:48] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: The cube is actually made up of several smalls cubes</nowiki>

[12:48] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Some don't disappear</nowiki>

[12:48] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i see large cube dissapear but i also see smaller ones inside it that don't dissapear</nowiki>

[12:48] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Yeah, that's the bug, Rex</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: are the people seeing the bug on wifi or on low bandwidth ISP's or have low bandwidth settings in the viewer?</nowiki>

[12:49] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Hello, Talarus.</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Oz - crank your bandwidth down to about 500k</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: as I'm not seeing the bug yet</nowiki>

[12:49] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: 1500 here</nowiki>

[12:49] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: I'm hard wired.</nowiki>

[12:49] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Hard wired</nowiki>

[12:49] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: As am I</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm seeing it fine at 3M, and I see the bug at 500k</nowiki>

[12:49] Oz Linden<nowiki>: (hint - configuring the demo so that it has an easily described shape/configuration when correct would be good)</nowiki>

[12:49] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It may just be packet loss</nowiki>

[12:49] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: bandwith is set to 500kbps.</nowiki>

[12:49] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Oooh, I never thought of that, My bandwidth is cranked higher usually</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: I do know what you mean though I see it on linksets sometimes even at just a few dozen, just not seeing it here atm</nowiki>

[12:49] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Yeah, now I see some left behind</nowiki>

[12:50] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: so everybody is getting same packet loss?</nowiki>

[12:50] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: 0.1% here</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I made it stop occurring for me by turning it up</nowiki>

[12:50] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: I'm probably making it worse with my tail and little soldier guy.</nowiki>

[12:50] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: Packets Lost: 266/127556 (0.2%)</nowiki>

[12:50] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Yeah, can't seem to get it to fail on this av right now, but I've trimmed it down a bit, too</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: Packets Lost: 1/151,173 (0.0%)</nowiki>

[12:50] Simon Linden<nowiki>: probably, those are all helping to fill up the pipeline</nowiki>

[12:50] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Yeah, when I turned my bandwidth down to 300 it left behind some cubes</nowiki>

[12:51] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: When I crank mine back up to 5000, everything disappears</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: and packet loss shouldn't cause that problem if it is going over TCP.</nowiki>

[12:51] Jenna Felton<nowiki>: that example guy is not an avatar, cool :)</nowiki>

[12:51] CmdrCupcake (sovereign.engineer)<nowiki>: I wish there was a better way to do prim animation that wasn't so object update heavy.</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: you don't want to raise it over 1500</nowiki>

[12:51] Simon Linden<nowiki>: some updates are udp</nowiki>

[12:51] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: mine says "0/1, (0.0%)" and I'm still seeing missing cube updates</nowiki>

[12:51] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: I just cranked it up to 1500kbps and it is toggling reliably.</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Updates should always eventuallt get through</nowiki>

[12:51] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Huh, I actually had my max BW on 500, forgot I didn't change it after wiping settings earlier. I put BW up to 1500 and now Im not seeing the bug o.O</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Prim updates going over UDP? O.o</nowiki>

[12:51] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Why not, Lucy?</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: ask teh devs</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: Position I can see</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucy daughter of the Devil (lucia.nightfire)<nowiki>: its what I've been told for years</nowiki>

[12:51] Talarus Luan<nowiki>: but appearance would be problematic</nowiki>

[12:52] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)<nowiki>: Oh just saw it then, but its behaving better</nowiki>

[12:52] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: That's the first time I've heard of it, but yeah, thanks for the heads up, Lucy. :)</nowiki>

[12:52] Callak Skytower<nowiki>: It's perfectly reliable for me now that I turned up the bandwith.</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: ooo! but yeah: upping bandwidth setting makes it all better for me! So... more like a race condition in the viewer, I think!</nowiki>

[12:52] Simon Linden<nowiki>: fwiw 3 mbps is the secret dont-bother-to-go-higher number. But that assumes the pipe between you and our servers is better than that end-to-end</nowiki>

[12:52] The Dragoness Ardor (becky.nosferatu)<nowiki>: Yeah.</nowiki>

[12:53] MISSING STRING (whirly.fizzle)&#60