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Simulator User Group/Transcripts/2013.08.27

2013-08-28

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| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.08.20|Prev 2013.08.20]]

| [[Simulator_User_Group/Transcripts/2013.09.03|Next 2013.09.03]]

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== List of Speakers ==

{|

|Adamburp Adamczyk

|Andrew Linden

|Baker Linden

|-

|Hexapoda

|Jonathan Yap

|Kallista Destiny

|-

|Kelly Linden

|Kennylex Luckless

|lightenedshadow

|-

|Lucia Nightfire

|MartinRJ Fayray

|Mona Eberhardt

|-

|Motor Loon

|Petr Topaz

|Qie Niangao

|-

|Rex Cronon

|RodneyCaston

|Simon Linden

|-

|TankMaster Finesmith

|Tray Guisse

|Yuzuru Jewell

|-

|}

== Transcript ==

[12:02] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And hell-oooooo Andrew!</nowiki>

[12:02] Yuzuru Jewell<nowiki>: Hello, Andrew.</nowiki>

[12:02] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hi everyone.</nowiki>

[12:02] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We had a rollout this morning to the main release channel, which went smoothly as far as I know</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: There was some feedback about the grid status blog being out of date, and that's been passed around but I'm not sure what may or may not change with it</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u r late, can't stay and for those that can't come. u can follow chat live here: </nowiki>http://rcds.nfshost.com/ques_view_chatLog.php?queOwner=llsl:Rex<nowiki>+Cronon&queName=chatLog&pg=1</nowiki>

[12:03] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: hi andrew</nowiki>

[12:03] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Tomorrow the RC channels will all get the same update, which is another maintenance release with a few bug fixes</nowiki>

[12:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Thanks Rex</nowiki>

[12:04] Simon Linden<nowiki>: The forum post is here: </nowiki>http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2013-08-26/td-p/2163873

[12:04] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: access stuffs</nowiki>

[12:04] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: :)</nowiki>

[12:04] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Ave Andrew</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I can't get into details on the access change but it's not a huge one, so don't get too excited about it</nowiki>

[12:05] Simon Linden<nowiki>: We hope to have a project viewer out in a few weeks or so that will have the new code and we can discuss it then</nowiki>

[12:05] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I won't be excited until I see resource restriction options for land owners at teh parcel level</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: yep, that would be nice</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: What does that mean exactly? Estate owners can set per-owner limits on parcel owners?</nowiki>

[12:06] Tray Guisse<nowiki>: is there a request out for that?</nowiki>

[12:06] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That's it for my news ... Andrew, Baker or Kelly, do you guys have anything to report?</nowiki>

[12:06] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I'll be excited when kelly linden makes us all bacon butties</nowiki>

[12:06] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: That, or something eXperience Permissions related (like: can't enter without accepting perms)</nowiki>

[12:06] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: or does it mean per-resource-type restrictions? (physics, rendering, scripts)</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Andrew its a few things, I'm actually compiling a list for presentation in a feature request jira</nowiki>

[12:07] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok</nowiki>

[12:07] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: most of it uses existing checks the server makes with said resources, but soem of them are unique</nowiki>

[12:08] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I have a couple minor topics for the agenda, but no news.</nowiki>

[12:08] Simon Linden<nowiki>: It may be best to also think of it as information access, and not the actual parcel rules. It's sometimes better if we made data available to LSL, and then you can program your own response to someone with too many attachments or scripts or such</nowiki>

[12:08] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I've still been hooking up the viewer to the server, and can now add people to the ban list. I'm currently working on getting the ban list, which will allow me to get deleting from the ban list working. After that, it's code cleanup, reviews, and adding server-side verification checks!</nowiki>

[12:09] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Baker banned me from some groups on the beta grid. I can attest that there is progress there.</nowiki>

[12:09] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Simon, many things are abel to be handled that way, many aren't though, which is what I'm working on presenting later</nowiki>

[12:09] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: u can ban even lindens from groups?</nowiki>

[12:09] Baker Linden<nowiki>: that will be a verification step, and no, you won't be able to MWA HA HA</nowiki>

[12:10] Simon Linden<nowiki>: Sorry Rex</nowiki>

[12:10] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: afaik, you can't manually even ban or eject a Linden through the viewer, so doing it through a group is weird</nowiki>

[12:10] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Can a linder plese note this: [12:09:14] HACKED BY THE GOVERNOR (carter.giacobini): (FS 4.2.2) </nowiki>http://secondlifedox.blogspot.co.uk/<nowiki> FREE SL + ACCOUNTS FOR ALL NEW UPDATES EVERYDAY FUCK THE SYSTEM</nowiki>

[12:10] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:10] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, I think that will work. However, a Linden should probably be able to admin the banlist. Or maybe not.</nowiki>

[12:10] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: you can add a linden to a parcel banlist</nowiki>

[12:11] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: but in God Mode has no efect</nowiki>

[12:11] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Lot of good that does...</nowiki>

[12:11] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: not sure about estate banning mind you</nowiki>

[12:11] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Will it be posible to set a ban time, like banned for a week or so?</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Not yet, but I have the code stubbed in there</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Is there room in the database schema for a ban expiry?</nowiki>

[12:12] Baker Linden<nowiki>: I'm going to create the table with that feature in mind, but it may not be implemented until after it's been released</nowiki>

[12:12] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ah good</nowiki>

[12:13] Baker Linden<nowiki>: same with ban reason -- whether or not I want to allow a sentence or two for a ban entry so the banner can write something about why the resident is banned</nowiki>

[12:13] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: excelent, always put extra spaces in a BD, just in case...</nowiki>

[12:14] Baker Linden<nowiki>: it probably won't be implemented in the first release, but I want to add that as well</nowiki>

[12:14] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: To be honest, Baker, I've always wondered why banning and ejecting people from groups hasn't been working in the same manner as banning and kicking people from IRC channels.</nowiki>

[12:15] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if u do that for every group memeber its going to be a pain to set the text</nowiki>

[12:15] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Baker, perhaps a checklist of reasons? Should not be all that many reasons.</nowiki>

[12:15] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: especally if you add other.</nowiki>

[12:16] Baker Linden<nowiki>: What do you mean, Mona?</nowiki>

[12:16] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: is it really necessary? a reason feidld?</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, but there are local reasons for bans too</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Well, in IRC channels, banning someone automatically shuts them up.</nowiki>

[12:16] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: eg wehn i ban somebody from m land, i use teh "other info" bit in theor profile</nowiki>

[12:16] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: which may not exist on a TOS based list</nowiki>

[12:16] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And you can kick them later.</nowiki>

[12:16] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I could see how a "reason" field would help collaborative group management</nowiki>

[12:16] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: Yo Can Rat join the party?</nowiki>

[12:17] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: it could help one manager "remember" why another manager banned someone else</nowiki>

[12:17] Baker Linden<nowiki>: No, a reason field isn't necessary -- I thought it might be nice, or at least if it had some pre-written selections so you'd remember in 3 months why that resident was banned</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And you can also set for how long they'll be banned, if I remember well.</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: 63 bytes, heh</nowiki>

[12:17] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Baker, on the IRC, we can optionally declare a reason for kicking and/or banning someone.</nowiki>

[12:17] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: not a party. a meeting. usually eerybody is welcome rodney</nowiki>

[12:17] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: don't use his display name in teh reason, heh</nowiki>

[12:18] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: RATCLONER IN HOUSE :)</nowiki>

[12:18] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: 64 chars should be plenty</nowiki>

[12:18] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> has kicked mona for being to cool</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Yeah, that's what I mean. It won't be required, but if you wanted to note to "Never unban this resident!", you'd be able to</nowiki>

[12:18] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: "64 characters should be enough for everybody"</nowiki>

[12:18] Baker Linden<nowiki>: haha</nowiki>

[12:18] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Great minds think alike</nowiki>

[12:19] Motor Loon<nowiki>: I'd be a nice feature baker.... but espicially if it was also available on parcel bans and estate bans</nowiki>

[12:19] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Mona, temporal bans will be after the first version is released.</nowiki>

[12:19] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:19] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Motor, yes it would. :)</nowiki>

[12:19] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: I wiah they unbanned Ratcloner Stoop this rat problem has over too many altz :)</nowiki>

[12:20] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: at an opt in manner, click on a i for reason</nowiki>

[12:20] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: temporal bans? you can ban someone in the future and have ti take affect now?</nowiki>

[12:20] Baker Linden<nowiki>: well, time-based bans, where you can ban someone for two weeks</nowiki>

[12:20] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Banned for 3 days or 3 weeks etc</nowiki>

[12:20] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: A couple questions for you guys...</nowiki>

[12:21] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Uh Oh</nowiki>

[12:21] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: ah, temporary bans :P</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: temp ban or what I call tban, lol</nowiki>

[12:21] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: who knew there'd be a quiz?</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (1) When a parcel transitions to another owner the "allow public to build on this land" is set to True by default, is that correct</nowiki>

[12:21] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ?</nowiki>

[12:21] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, except for abandon</nowiki>

[12:21] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: yeas</nowiki>

[12:22] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: think so</nowiki>

[12:22] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I beleive that is the case</nowiki>

[12:22] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Can we get "Ban *.Linden" and "Ban Torley*.*"?</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So we were thinking we would change it to be False by default. I was wondering if anyone here would complain.</nowiki>

[12:22] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not me</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: andrew, it would be a huge plus</nowiki>

[12:22] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Ok cool.</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: given the amount of noobie landowners</nowiki>

[12:22] Motor Loon<nowiki>: that should be fine yeah</nowiki>

[12:22] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: who don;t understand permissions at first</nowiki>

[12:22] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: I see the advantage of setting everything off by default</nowiki>

[12:22] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: It would prevent some modes of Griefing.</nowiki>

[12:22] Baker Linden<nowiki>: Sure Kenny, just don't expect it to work :P</nowiki>

[12:22] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I would complain, probably</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I want SL to be more noob-friendly</nowiki>

[12:23] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: :D</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: which would require them alot of free places to rez stuff</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: (2) This has probably been asked for (I can't remember) but: Estate owners should probably be able to admin parcel properties without having to take ownership of them (ban lists, object options, etc).</nowiki>

[12:23] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Would you all agree with that?</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: *for them there to be alot of free parcels where they could rezz stuff</nowiki>

[12:23] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: martin, that's why there are sandboxes, adn rezz zones all over the mainlabnd</nowiki>

[12:23] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: yes but for noobs they are often hard to find</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I've met alot of noobs who don't ever heard of the term 'sandbox'</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: *haven't ever</nowiki>

[12:24] Motor Loon<nowiki>: Oh andrew, that'd be an awesome thing for us with larger estates</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and thats what public sandboxes are for</nowiki>

[12:24] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: region should override parcel you mean?</nowiki>

[12:24] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Speaking of rez zones, will anything be done about AnnMarie OToole's spammy "vehicles"?</nowiki>

[12:24] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I agree with 2, but not with 1</nowiki>

[12:24] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: not random parcel owners whereever they go</nowiki>

[12:24] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: No, I mean Estate Managers should be able to change the per-parcel parameters.</nowiki>

[12:24] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew some things might be better on by default. just make it so it can be changed easily from on to off</nowiki>

[12:24] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: Some Lindens seem to only know how to banned but seem not to undo mistake or send one to an location like the corn field</nowiki>

[12:24] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: ect</nowiki>

[12:24] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Honestly, Martin, if they don't know about Sandboxes, *that's* the problem, not that they can't build anywhere they see spare prims.</nowiki>

[12:24] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: The EM would have to be within the parcel to do that, right?</nowiki>

[12:25] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats iffy Andrew, some would say EO only, some would say, EO&EM</nowiki>

[12:25] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: They litter everything and, despite numerous ARs, she keeps gaming the system to keep spamming mainland with her trash.</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: For (1) land owners could always choose to allow everyone to build. But the default state would be False.</nowiki>

[12:25] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: alot of friends of mine don't have money to spend to build in SL but still build alot of content which they sell on marketplace, and they usually do it on some almost-abandoned parcels</nowiki>

[12:25] Motor Loon<nowiki>: an estatemanager should have access to anything in the About land, regardless who's the owner of the parcel</nowiki>

[12:25] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: please don't change that, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:25] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok so no arguments about (2)</nowiki>

[12:25] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: allow terraform, create and object entry should be off by default after a transfer</nowiki>

[12:26] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: no arguments about (2)</nowiki>

[12:26] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Martin, make them stop doing that, please, and go to sandboxes or other parcels set to auto-return, so they don't keep scattering crap all over the Mainland.</nowiki>

[12:26] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And I'm talking about problems like the one blogged here: </nowiki>http://poultryreport.blogspot.it/2013/08/rolling-eyesores.html

[12:26] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: (2) Yes good Idea</nowiki>

[12:26] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: they always clean up after themself</nowiki>

[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: mona, 1 thing in herdefence?</nowiki>

[12:26] Motor Loon<nowiki>: please dont make obj. entry false by default... that'd be a nightmare</nowiki>

[12:26] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: absolutely. it would be a nightmare</nowiki>

[12:26] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki>: I exploe the mainaldn a LOT (just ask the ldpw) and she always picks up her stuff if yu tell her about it</nowiki>

[12:26] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: but not everybody does -- *especially* not the ones who don't know about sandboxes at all.</nowiki>

[12:27] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: Yeah not to brag uh which Linden is running the code for The Corn Field Region these days?</nowiki>

[12:27] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Not object entry, but allowing people to build new objects on the parcel.</nowiki>

[12:27] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: or Beta side?</nowiki>

[12:27] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: free bus transit system. now with self-replicating bus stops:)</nowiki>

[12:27] Motor Loon<nowiki>: build is fine with me</nowiki>

[12:27] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: right, unfortunately can't set auto-return ON by default, either.</nowiki>

[12:27] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: auto return by default to .01 sec :P</nowiki>

[12:28] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Folk that has disabled auto return should get a notice about that every month, if they do not response on that the autoreturn should be say to 5 to 10 min.</nowiki>

[12:28] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Why not Qie? A default auto-return could be set on parcel transition.</nowiki>

[12:28] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: if some residents want to have more restrictive rules on their land, they still can turn object entry or creation off manually.</nowiki>

[12:28] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Autoreturn with a time of 5 sec whould be nice</nowiki>

[12:28] Motor Loon<nowiki>: autoreturn would be very bad and cause lots of problems</nowiki>

[12:28] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: peeps in SL are so paranoid, often. you should not support that.</nowiki>

[12:29] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Andrew, I wish, but lots of stuff that stayed on the land at sale would go poof... and people need time to re-set that stuff's group settings, at least.</nowiki>

[12:29] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think that's what keeps making things worse.</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: need auto return on attachments...</nowiki>

[12:29] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lols</nowiki>

[12:29] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Yes, the reason we were thinking about making the change, MartinRJ, was that there seem to be a lot of open parcels which makes it really easy for griefers to build+hide malicious objects in regions.</nowiki>

[12:29] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: You mean autoeject?</nowiki>

[12:29] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: that to</nowiki>

[12:30] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Many parcel owners may be clueless about the malicious objects on their land, and maybe clueless that they can change that option. That's the theory, anyway.</nowiki>

[12:30] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is half over</nowiki>

[12:30] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: clearly some people have not been majorly griefed...</nowiki>

[12:30] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: do a poll andrew:)</nowiki>

[12:30] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: If you want to change the behaviour, then at least the option should keep it's previous state.</nowiki>

[12:30] lightenedshadow<nowiki>: Bloody hells bells that was quick half over already :c</nowiki>

[12:30] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: It *would* be nice to somehow *encourage* more use of auto-return. (Like... TIER-BONUS ! :p)</nowiki>

[12:30] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: so if it was open for building before, you should not set it to false.</nowiki>

[12:31] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: would that be an option, Andrew?</nowiki>

[12:31] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... that is a possibility MartinRJ.</nowiki>

[12:31] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: lol @ Qie</nowiki>

[12:31] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: We has parcel beside a lifetime user that seldom is online and has no auto return, after some month t can have old grief there that lags the whole area.</nowiki>

[12:31] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats a common problem, heh</nowiki>

[12:32] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: well the requested change wouldn't help with your special situation, Kennylex</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Kennylex, that is on a mainland region?</nowiki>

[12:32] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: if somebody decides to use sel-replicators autoretun wouldn't be that usefull</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: It is in Main lan.</nowiki>

[12:32] Kennylex Luckless<nowiki>: Maniland, Minna</nowiki>

[12:32] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, another thing...</nowiki>

[12:33] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: self-replicators*</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It turns out you can bypass autoreturn by making a recursive-rezzing object.</nowiki>

[12:33] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Rex, that's true. Any of the parcel settings can be got-round, but they each help, some.</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: one of the resource restriction options I was going to include my list addresses an issue with rezzing by owner's not present on the parcel "Allow object rezzing from owners not on this parcel." Everyone Y/n Group Y/N</nowiki>

[12:33] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and that covers 5 different grief vectors</nowiki>

[12:33] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It rezzes a copy of itself and give a copy to the rezzed object. The original object gets autoreturned and the new one can live for another autoreturn period.</nowiki>

[12:33] Motor Loon<nowiki>: recursive-rezzing?</nowiki>

[12:33] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Yes. AnnMarie Otoole is using this extensively to spam mainland with her zombie vehicles.</nowiki>

[12:34] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Right. Old trick.</nowiki>

[12:34] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and theres 5 or more ways to make stuff defeat autoreturn too...</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: So, I'm planning on nerfing that misfeature.</nowiki>

[12:34] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: They been issue with these JLU & Reddit groups both ani-griefer & Griefer/trolls which seem to be issue fileing too many Ageplay reports in G rated seem which states Teen has to actional be on sex poseball to be ageplaying</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: And I'm wondering how much "legit" content will break</nowiki>

[12:34] Motor Loon<nowiki>: ah plug that hole then has it any useful "legal" uses?</nowiki>

[12:34] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: where "legit" means: content that is cool and most people like</nowiki>

[12:34] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: @Lucy great idea!</nowiki>

[12:35] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Seems a win to nerf it, but I'm sure somebody is gonna whine</nowiki>

[12:35] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: yeah that trick has been around for many years</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: you'll get a biased answer from content creators that use that means Andrew, esp in the combat HUD dept</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Andrew, the solution is simple: permaban the ones that systematically abuse the system and have caused people to AR them a lot of time.</nowiki>

[12:35] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: Lucy's idea would really help with that</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Instead of removing functionality, we can remove the ones that abuse it.</nowiki>

[12:35] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew. don't nerf it.</nowiki>

[12:35] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: After all, these people are bad for business.</nowiki>

[12:35] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: thats a unique check though as there isn't a check to check for presence of owner to begin with, so it'll be something new</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its one of the few checks that aren't already being done by the server</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can list what that setting will deter too</nowiki>

[12:36] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: Legit: cool and some (perhaps as few as 1% of active non bot residents), not most, people like</nowiki>

[12:36] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: Currently, an agent is capable of rezzing from inventory on a parcel without being on the parcel or even in the region.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Objects are capable of scripted rezzing and self-replication without the owner being present on the parcel or in the region.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Rezzed/worn megaprims larger than a region can rez objects into a region from several regions away.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Bots are capable of connecting to a region from anywhere on the grid, becoming a child agent of the region and rezzing inventory objects on any public rez parcels.</nowiki>

<nowiki>Illegal tpv's with a "sim fill" feature can send hundreds of rez requests a second over the entire region without the user explicitly looking for land to rez on.</nowiki>

[12:36] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: banning accounts doesnt really help cus the user can just come back on a different account</nowiki>

[12:36] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: And kicking them out doesn't require code to be written... Just a C&D that has a PS like "... And don't let the door hit ya on the butt on your way out."</nowiki>

[12:37] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: Tank, then perhaps the time has come for master accounts to be implemented.</nowiki>

[12:37] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Lucy, honestly, I'd never use that setting on any of my land... and can't imagine it being that popular. I mean, who doesn't have a rezzer they want others to be able to operate in their absence?</nowiki>

[12:37] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Hrm... so what if the recursive scripted rez was allowed if the avatar were present. Are most of the "legit" uses for stuff that orbits the avatar? Or is there a lot of "legit" autonomous content in the world?</nowiki>

[12:37] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I agree with Mona</nowiki>

[12:37] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: its mainly for public rez land</nowiki>

[12:37] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: maybe limitting self-replication at least a little. but no nerfin</nowiki>

[12:38] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there surely is legit content, but it looks like the best solution to me</nowiki>

[12:38] Jonathan Yap<nowiki>: how about nerf it if autoreturn applies to you--this would not affect objects owned by the parcel owner (or group, if that is set up)</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: people will adapt!</nowiki>

[12:38] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I can't think of a ethically legit self-replication app</nowiki>

[12:38] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: :P</nowiki>

[12:39] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: there r things that replicate at intervals of less than 1 seconds. that is usually bad</nowiki>

[12:39] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Jonathan, yes that would be how it would work: this is an autoreturn exploit that would be closed.</nowiki>

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i can.. tribbles!</nowiki>

[12:39] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki> snickers</nowiki>

[12:39] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: ethically meaning designed to defeat autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:39] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: would it be possible to add a checkbox so that the parcel owner / manager can choose whether or not to allow self-replication?</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: : D</nowiki>

[12:40] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Ah, with Jonathan's condition, it does seem pretty safe. Do combat folks need to go beyond that condition, too?</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: although I don't think it would be used much, at all...</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: nevermind</nowiki>

[12:40] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I kind-of agree with Lucy</nowiki>

[12:41] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: lucy. i use it in a platform that doesn't die as long i am in the sim. i use it in sims that have autoreturn, otherwise i can't work somewhere high in the sky</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: self-replication is jsut one problem, recurrsive rezzing is more common</nowiki>

[12:41] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: pets use recursive rezzing</nowiki>

[12:41] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: It turns out there is a similar exploit available for temp-on-rez objects: recursive rez appears to work for a long time, but maybe not indefinitely.</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and yes, self-replicating platforms are the most common "legit" self-rep apps I know</nowiki>

[12:41] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but I've onyl seen two models</nowiki>

[12:41] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: there was a jira about the kittycats, when the anti-grey-goo mechanism was too restrictive last year</nowiki>

[12:42] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: well, self replication is ok, as long as it doesn't happen too fast, and as long as it doesn't get around autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:42] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: metering it to not bypass autoreturn would be a problem, esp with simple 5 minute autoreturn</nowiki>

[12:42] Motor Loon<nowiki>: yeah</nowiki>

[12:42] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: andrew. it does need to get autoreturn. public sandboxes have become to restrictive due to griefing:(</nowiki>

[12:43] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Rex, you say you use a recursive rezzing box to avoid autoreturn when building sky boxen?</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: yes</nowiki>

[12:43] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the primary restriction you see atm in LL's sandboxe is no scripting at teh estate level</nowiki>

[12:43] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it dies if i don't return to sim fast enough</nowiki>

[12:44] Mona Eberhardt<nowiki>: All the more reason to implement master accounts: </nowiki>http://monaeberhardt.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/the-master-account-proposal-revisited/

[12:44] Motor Loon<nowiki>: I'd say go for making those changes - if it breaks anything legit, we'll hear about it and rethink it then...</nowiki>

[12:44] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: by its own behavior -- it only replicates if it detects your presence?</nowiki>

[12:44] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: sometimes building on the group it can get too crowded and people go to different heights to work</nowiki>

[12:45] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: it stops replicating if i am not present</nowiki>

[12:45] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: to tell the truth, I already implemented the nerf for the autoreturn exploit, but at Simon's suggestion I keyed it with a config option to disable it</nowiki>

[12:45] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the self-rep platofrm apps I know of do it w/o presence of owner</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok well the implementation in its current state would kill your jacob's ladder Rex</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: draw taht line</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I think it should really don't apply when the owner of the object is in the region</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: like when you sit on a vehicle</nowiki>

[12:46] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: SL is 10 years old, we need some definitive and ground breaking changes</nowiki>

[12:46] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: just the same way</nowiki>

[12:46] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I will consider that, and bounce the idea off some of my colleagues.</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: we need a new viewer and a new LSL, but not more restrictions</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: look above. this is a self-replicating platform</nowiki>

[12:47] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and I can agree to a degree taht it shouldn't be hindered if the owner is in the region or on the parcel</nowiki>

[12:47] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki> nods</nowiki>

[12:47] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i agree. as long i am in the sim it whould work</nowiki>

[12:47] RodneyCaston<nowiki>: AR system need to crossout Ageplayed because i seThis is bad post but who cares </nowiki>http://kinggoon.net/

[12:48] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: so it would open up a new use for bot accounts... stay in the region to keep the autoreturn exploiters going</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: but in all fairness, self-replication was primarily designed to defeat autoreturn, even if its the best of intentions, lol</nowiki>

[12:48] Motor Loon<nowiki>: rex could also just sit on his platform</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: I think self replication existing prior to auto return, though I'm not really sure.</nowiki>

[12:48] Kelly Linden<nowiki>: existed*</nowiki>

[12:48] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: then it would be gone when he crashes and he would fall 4000m after login</nowiki>

[12:48] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, Andrew I thought taht would occur myself if there was a change in that area, esp when Anne's bus stops, lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: hrm... maybe parcels should have have two autoreturn periods: one for objects whose owners in in the region, and one for those lacking owners</nowiki>

[12:49] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: gread idea, Andrew</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: YES lol</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: that was another</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i can't just sit on it. sometimes i need to do things that require me to walk</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I'm actually doign that now</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: in one sandbox</nowiki>

[12:49] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: with a scripted object return setup</nowiki>

[12:49] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: that sounds better andrew</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the owner's return time is "built" in proportion to their in-sim time</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and ticks down when they leave</nowiki>

[12:50] Motor Loon<nowiki>: well, I'll rent you some land where you dont have to worry about all that Rex</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: and builds again when they return</nowiki>

[12:50] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: complicated Lucia... would require per-avatar data to be stored per parcel</nowiki>

[12:50] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yes, but its very handy</nowiki>

[12:51] Kallista Destiny<nowiki>: I see the potental for lag there</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: I've seen a definitive improvement, esp with those that come in to rez crap then leave...lol</nowiki>

[12:51] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: i appreciate that motor but sometimes i do go to public sangboxes and there might be others ave on it besides me</nowiki>

[12:51] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: only problem is, it takes a LO/GO/EO/EM to use the return funtion, but its nice</nowiki>

[12:52] Qie Niangao<nowiki>: Rex, all those "others" should rent from Motor, too!</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: ok, well that's all the items I had for the agenda</nowiki>

[12:52] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: the table is open</nowiki>

[12:52] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: i got one</nowiki>

[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: currently when your on a region with a landong point, you cannot TP within the region, like dbl click to TP</nowiki>

[12:53] Motor Loon<nowiki>: 2-autoreturn timers would be pretty awesome Andrew... I'd love for an instant autoreturn when someone leave and for example a 1 hours one if they're in sim</nowiki>

[12:53] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I like Lucy's suggestion. Maybe there could be a check when the regular auto-return kicks in, and wait for n minutes until the avatar is gone</nowiki>

[12:53] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: would it be possible to add an option to allow or dissallow TPing withing a reion/parcle that has a landing point?</nowiki>

[12:53] Rex Cronon<nowiki>: this self-replication is also used on guardians at combat sims. they protect u from attacks:)</nowiki>

[12:53] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: the agent's in-sim data exists if they own prims</nowiki>

[12:54] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: * if they have rezzed prims</nowiki>

[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: that way people who enter the region still go to a fixed point, but then can TP around afterwords</nowiki>

[12:54] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: oh god yeah, TankMaster</nowiki>

[12:54] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: but yet had it disabled for combat sims that dont want that feature</nowiki>

[12:54] Adamburp Adamczyk<nowiki> offers baker a piece of birthday cake "happy birthday baker"</nowiki>

[12:54] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Tankmaster, in theory it could be added... not too complicated on the server-side I think.</nowiki>

[12:55] Meeter<nowiki>: Timecheck : User Group is almost over</nowiki>

[12:55] TankMaster Finesmith<nowiki>: should I file a jira on it?</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, adding it to the UI and message system might be harder...</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: esp. for someone like me who uses SL-viewer's double-click teleport: it's really stupid that you go to the landing point everytime you accidentally double-click</nowiki>

[12:55] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I'd have to check the format of the message that gets sent when you set a parcel's properties.</nowiki>

[12:55] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: I'd love to have that feature</nowiki>

[12:55] Simon Linden<nowiki>: That would be a per-region setting?</nowiki>

[12:55] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: yeah, I'd like that to change too, lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: Per-parcel, I think.</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: per parcel</nowiki>

[12:56] Simon Linden<nowiki>: with no region / estate over-ride?</nowiki>

[12:56] Lucia Nightfire<nowiki>: althogh you can set a landing point outside a parcel if you know how, lol</nowiki>

[12:56] Baker Linden<nowiki>: thanks adam!</nowiki>

[12:57] MartinRJ Fayray<nowiki>: anyways: double-click-teleport shouldn't bring you to the landing-point either way.</nowiki>

[12:57] Simon Linden<nowiki>: I'm not arguing for or against it, just trying to get a clear understanding of what would be useful</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: I don't remember how the "telehub" (per-region landing points) feature interacts with per-parcel landing spots.</nowiki>

[12:57] Andrew Linden<nowiki>: However, the feature being proposed only overrides the per-parcel landing spots.</nowik