Not everything Wenatchee The Hatchet has been able to compile has been in a handy visual format. Sometimes all that remains is raw text of material that was originally available on the old unmoderated Midrash. In "Pussified Nation" allusions cropped up to the positive alternative to the negatives discussed in that thread. The positives, perhaps, were discussed a bit in the thread below.
Author Topic: Headship
William Wallace II
Member posted 02-01-2001 04:12 PM
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Now, let's get back to the topic.
Listening to the recent posts brings a verse to mind "...warriors have stopped fighting; they remain in the strongholds. Their strength is exhausted; they have become like women..." - Jeremiah 51:30
This thread is devoted to solutions. Real solutions. Not the ethereal out of touch impractical psychological feel your way through life like a blind man driving on the freeway kind of New Age noise that has been so prominent as of late on this site.
Men, here is the bottom line. Ephesians 5 says that you are to love your wife like Christ loves the church.
This means more than you feeling really really happy and gushy and mushy inside every time you think of her like some bad Valentine card propaganda bought by a junior high boy to give to his first crush in hopes that she'll kiss him. It also means more than you being in charge of every woman and that they should all bow down to you because you are a guy and they are not and you are therefore smarter, superior, and some sort of king ding.
Many women are smarter than you, and godlier, and more gifted, and doing more for the gospel. Each woman should submit to her husband. That means that you do not govern over women in general, but just your wife. Therefore, you had better get a woman who you can lead and govern as her head.
If you are a weak and cowardly half-a-man you will try and find a shortcut to being the head of your home. You will be harsh with your wife to keep her in her place. You will stunt her growth in Christ to make sure she stays behind you. You will demand that she respect you even when you live a slacked jacked life that embarrases her to be called your wife. You will tell her to shut up, stay in her place, and stay behind you.
If you were a manly man, you would encourage her strength, growth, maturity and the like. And you would begin by being so devoted to God that you outran her and she could easily follow because you ran fast and hard and encouraged her to try and keep up.
This is not competition. This is leadership. You lovingly sprint out ahead and coach her to run with you hand in hand as you serve Christ together with your home being your base of ministry out of which influence extended to all nations of the earth beginning with your wife and children.
All of this to say that you are the head. By that, God means that you are responsible.
Simply, if your wife is an incessant gossip, nag, flirt or the like it is your responsibility. She is responsible for her sin, and so are you. If she manipulates you, you are not a victim. If she rules over you, you are not a victim. If she disrespects you, you are not a victim. If she drives you nuts, you are not a victim. If she is bad in bed, you are not a victim.
Why?
Because you let her.
So, if this sounds familiar get on your knees and apologize to her for being such a coward and letting her run free like some uncaged animal. Get your family together and repent of the sins of your family. Then, lead them out of their mess and take responsibility as the head of your home.
How much of our sin does Jesus Christ own? That's right, all of it. Jesus died on the cross not because of anything He had done, but because of we had done. He was our head, so He took upon Himself our sin. So, to love a woman as Jesus loves His church calls a man to die to himself, pick up his cross and suffer for the sins of his wife and lead her into repentant change.
You are a head. You are responsible. If your car rolls down a hill into a home the owner of that home does not sue the car. Why? Because you are the head of that car, you are responsible for it, and you must govern it to ensure it does not get out of control. So it is with your family. If it rolls downhill you are the owner and you should repent, make resitution, and ensure that things change.
This is the heavy part of headship. Each man wants a wife who is topless and sinless. What the get is a woman with three shirts and a stubborn sinful will. To be the head means to be strong enough to govern her, kind enough to melt her heart, and godly enough to lead her.
Yes, like Christ.
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 02-01-2001).]
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William Wallace II
Member posted 02-01-2001 04:38 PM
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"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love." - I Corinthians 16:14
Today it would not be called the Church of Corinth, but the Church of Springer.
A Christian guy was having sex with his mom. Christians were getting drunk at communion. Christians were suing each other. Christians were speaking in tongues like the freaks we see on tv. Christians were having homo sex and picking up prostitutes with God's money. Christians were getting divorced. Christians were not tithing to their church. Christian women were interrupting the pastor and acting like feminists by disrespecting their fathers and husbands. Christians were marrying unbelievers. Christians were listening to false teachers.
And, they thought they were just fine and really had their stuff together. Yes, they were the first American Evangelicals way before their time. Today, some publishing house would lift up their apolgists to misquote Scripture and defend the entire mess and God's will. With any luck they'd eventually get stadiums filled with men and lame pastel t-shirts out of the gig.
And they really needed to pull their mess of a church together. And so Paul wrote them a couple of letters, the first of which was particulalry scathing. And he answered their questions and told them to suck it up and by God's grace stop sinning and being such well read bickering proud imbeciles.
And, at the end of his letter he lays out both the problem and the solution which are always one and the same. Paul speaks directly to the men because they are supposed to govern the church and by God's grace fix the mess. How does God work? Through His people. And first, through His men.
All of this to say that if you are a man you also have headship over your church. Headship begins with Christ, comes down through the elders, and continues down through each man. This does not mean that every man should be listened to or that the women should pretend that the male knuckleheads are holier than the godly women.
It means that the men are responsible for the church. If your church sucks, it is your fault. If the Bible is not taught, it is your fault. If single guys are putting their hands down the pants of God's daughters, it is your fault. If guys are not giving their monies first to the Lord, it is your fault.
Have they sinned? Yes. And who is responsible? You.
Do not complain about your church. Do not whine that your needs are not met. Do not stop going to church because they are all bad. If you know Christ then first repent of your sin, then repent of the sin of your church, then get to work.
What should you do?
"Be on guard". By this, you have to keep your eyes open and see what the heck is going on in your church and the people's lives. This should not be taken as a license for legalistic voyeurism into people's lives. But, you should know what's going on. You are a soldier and you are supposed to be on duty at all times and not napping on your watch.
"Stand firm in your faith". By this, you must learn to not be a silent coward who backs down at the first sign of conflict or reistance. If you do not like conflict, then simply expect to lose for the rest of your life.
"Be men of courage". By this, you must be masculine, a manly man. This does not mean that because you drink beer, drive a big truck, can beat up your sister and have a fifteen inch long personality that you are a man. A man is a noble soldier who is on guard to protect, governing as a responsible head, and has courage like his King, Jesus Christ.
"Be strong". By this he does not mean that you should be a legalistic jerk who likes to bully other men around. To be strong is to seek God's glory and push others away from their sin and toward their repentance. If you are a weak man you have likely convinced yourself with the help of James Dobson, Promise Keepers, and the legion of male lesbians claiming Christ that your weakness makes you like Jesus. Jesus was meek, not weak. What that means is that I can kill you with my bare hands and eat your heart raw as a snack, but I have decided not to because I have control.
"Do everything in love". And here is the last word. Once you are on gaurd, standing firm, courageous, and strong, then you should remember to be loving. If you start with a desire to be loving you will act and think like a male lesbian. If you begin like a soldier you must end as a loving soldier.
This does not mean that you can be neglectful of your watch because you didn't want to be mean. This does not mean that you can dance around your convictions because you want people to think you are nice. This does not mean that you can back down from a confrontation when another man is in sin because that would not be loving as the psychologists define it. And it does not mean that you should be effeminate like a woman so that you can be loving. You must love. And you must love in a masculine way as a manly man.
This also means that you will show your love to men and women differently because a soldier speaks differently to a fellow soldier than he does a female civilian he is called to protect and honor.
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William Wallace II
Member posted 02-01-2001 05:25 PM
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"...Early in the morning he (Job) would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them (his children), thinking, 'Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.' This was Job's regular custom." - Job 1:5b
Now, a manly man and headship over his family.
If your children are wild and rebellious, it is your fault. If your kids scream at you, it is your fault. If your kids hit you, it is your fault. If your kids are so bad that you hate to take them in public, hate to have other people watch them, and hate to go to church because they continually embarass you, it is your fault.
Have your kids sinned? Of course. And, they should repent of their sin to God and those they offend.
But, so should the father. He should repent also. Why? Because he is the head of the home. Men, these are your children and their sin is also your sin.
It is pitiful to hear the whining of the age. Poor guy is such a good father and has such rotten kids. Maybe this does happen upon occasion. But, shouldn't the test of a good father be his kids?
After all, we never say, poor guy he's such a good painter but he just has such poor paintings. Or, poor guy, he's such a good driver but he keeps getting in head on collisions.
Get the point?
Look at your children. If their hearts are tender toward Christ and you, and that tenderness is demonstrated in practical loving obedience, then you are a good father. If their hearts are hard toward you and Christ, you are not a good father.
You may have naively thought that if you loved them they would be loving in return. While this does work, that love should include discipline that is loving for the purpose of not mere angry punishment, but correction for the purpose of repentance and tender honor of God and mom and dad.
Now, this does not mean that to be a good father you should become a mother. Paul is clear that a woman should have her desires directed homeward (Titus 2:3-5). Since it is your duty to feed said wife and child/ren (I Timothy 5:8) you should not have your attention directed soley homeward like your wife. This is the error of much of the overreactive thinking in our day that is encouraging men to focus on their families when they should be focusing on their savior.
You should be actively involved in your child's life. Especially in their evangelization, theological instruction, discipline, etc. all with loving headship and tender authority. As the head of your home, much of your work will be done through the delegation of authority to your wife. Therefore, it is important to work closely with your wife and ensure you are teaching her Scripture and praying over her as a pastor to ensure she is well ready to be in headship over the children and under your headship. But, you must continue to remember that you are ultimately responsible for the decisions she makes and you cannot dump your duties on her and then blame her when things fall apart.
Lastly, having children will do marvelous things for your wife. Many a single woman, or married women without children seem to believe all this talk about lines of authority and responsibility related to headship are now culturally dated and out of step with our oh so virtuous and admirable evolved present age. And, all of that changes when she becomes a mother. So, I would encourage young couples to have children sooner rather than later.
A mother discovers that she must have headship over her children if she is to maintain any order and reign in the collective sinful flesh of her children. So, she soon appreciates headship and authority and learns to submit to her husband because if she does not then the children follow her poor example and make her life a hell as she does in kind to her husband.
Any man who does not own this headship will have a wife who, like Eve, steps forward to run the family with sincere intentions and tragic consequences. She thought she was the head of the home, but with his passivity and her boldness Satan actually became the head of that home. And so it is. Men, you are either the head of your home, or Satan is. If your wife thinks it can be her then she, like Eve, is deceived.
Since the order of headship is then destroyed, the children rise up and demand to be treated as equal to the parents and the parents end up negotiating, bartering, and arguing with their children rather than lovingly disciplining and leading them. The result is self-focused children who become impossible adults because they simply do not repent but instead want to negotiate and barter with authority at every turn. The father is then tempted to yell at his wife to keep the kids under control, or justify it by saying it's just because "he's a boy" or "she's a girl", or "my parents raised me that way and I turned out great." Oh really, then why are you such a mess and why do your wife and kids act like they would kill you if they knew they'd get away with it?
All of this to say, it's an old mess that modern times have forgotten because we are biblically illiterate and the Christian leaders have often resorted to psychology over Scripture for remedies.
"Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path." - Isaiah 3:12
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William Wallace II
Member posted 02-01-2001 05:39 PM
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"If one part suffers, every part suffers with it..." - I Corinthians 12:26
All of this to say much of the nonsense (paricularly on the Dickification string which is seemingly for men who want to use big words and do things in general ways) on this site is insane.
You and your family are not an island cut off from the history of God's people from Adam forward. You are not an autonomous individual. Your messed up life and messed up family are really jacking up the whole universe in varying degrees, especially your local church. If you are not even in a local church, then you are double jacked and helping no one but addicted to your personal relationship with Jesus and your island of a family with it's own ways private interpretation of God's word on family matters. Enough already about yourself. I'm calling men to headship that is Christ-like in practical ways that benefit their homes and churches in such a way as to send the fragrance of Christ across the earth. Right now the odor is not fragrant, but flatulent.
Lastly, no swearing on this thread. Some guys will end up arguing about that and remaining jacked by ducking the issues.
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davidvik
Junior Member posted 02-01-2001 09:43 PM
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Willy...In terms of headship, what provision is there for single women? (As you know, I'm in an area of predominantly college-age students.) The general response to this has been either to plug them in as the leaders of the campus parachurches &/or local churches themselves or basically avoid the issue altogether. If I understand this issue of headship right, the church, especially where I'm working, is in no way prepared to answer this question.
So first of all, where do single "independent" women fit into the headship model?
Secondly, how does this shake out practically?
Keep on dealin', buddy...
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ReformUrAss
Member posted 02-02-2001 01:31 AM
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I have never seen a pastor who makes me really believe that he takes serious his own headship over his church before God. I thank you and honor you for being accountable for my sins and the sins of those who I love deeper than words can say.
I hope every other man is as serious about learning the meaning of the word "Headship" as I am. To tell you the truth the word "Headship" scares the living crap out of me. Especially since I desire being the head of so much.
Keep it coming!
I suppose I am breaking the no cussing rule just by posting here. But keep reforming my ass. I desprately need it.
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zugbot
Member posted 02-02-2001 08:41 AM
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"Look at your children. If their hearts are tender toward Christ and you, and that tenderness is demonstrated in practical loving obedience, then you are a good father. If their hearts are hard toward you and Christ, you are not a good father."
Could you clarify this?
If taken to an analogous conclusion re. God the Father and the people He has created, it would seem to say that God is not a good father because we, his creation, are exceedingly wicked.
Yet we know that God is a good father.
My experience (which is admittedly skewed) has left me preoccupied with the wickedness/rebellion of myself and the people/world around me to the point where I really am not shocked by the absence of “practical loving obedience” anywhere except through the rare miracle of God’s grace.
As I prepare for the possibility of eventual fatherhood, I find myself putting my house in order, growing in strong headship, and bracing myself for the likely rebellion of those I may lead.
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sniff
Member posted 02-02-2001 09:21 AM
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Zugbot's point is interesting. Is he married? I know that you are, Senor Dos, but I have the distinct feeling that you are leading some of the single guys here down a garden path. You paint this picture of husband and wife running through the fields of Elysium ("draw me after you and we will run together" as SOS states), and because of the husband's buffness in the Lord and the wife's quiet submissiveness, it is this fluid, smooth ballet through thigh-high wheat of Paradise.
Whatever.
I married a intelligent, kind, observant wife. And, boy, does she tell me what she thinks. And I wouldn't have it any other way. We don't think the same way, we don't communicate the same way, we don't even appreciate all of the same things (take 20 extra dollars at the end of the month - she'd spend it on dinner somewhere, I'd spend it at a movie). What happens when two godly adults don't see eye-to-eye on something? Just take a look at the 1600 posts to this bb.
Sure, there is nice model summed up by Paul - written, as pointed out by Le Deux, to one very screwed up church. But then I ask, "Would I give the same instructions to Johnny, who is a veritable idiot in everything he does, as I would to Jimmy, who does pretty well?" Will, sharpen your blade, but is it possible that Paul went to extremes because the situations in those churches warranted it?
Regardless of how you answer that (and I already know what II's answer is) the formulaic over-simplification that is stated on some of these posts are naive and misleading. Marriage is hard (but awesome, don't get me wrong) work. It is hard work because being a man is hard work. It is hard work because relationships are hard work. When it comes down to it, even if you are being all that you can be and your wife is doing the same thing, some days are going to suck. Some arguments are going to be lost, some fights are just going to happen. And in those times, as much as the golden sunrise, all is perfect, I'm in heaven times, our relationship with each other, with God, and with the church is whittled, formed, perfected.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-02-2001 09:33 AM
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For single women, it would be ideal if they had a good father who loved God and loved them. Too many a Christian woman does not have a dad who is on duty looking out for her best interests. If a young woman does not have a loving and godly father in her life, then she should seek out an older man for that role (i.e. an uncle, elder of the church, godly man in the church etc.). He should be there to help fend off the parade of men who would want to manipulate her, use her for their own lusts, and then drop her without regard. Some women balk at this, but you must look at the number of young women who have been mistreated and know that their trust and optimism for men is often abused by those young men and she should have a defender and protector.
This is not legalism, it is deep love. It is sad when a single young woman has to toughen up and fight off men just to keep her purity. Also, an older man should be sure that the younger woman is learning, growing, and encouraged in Christ.I have a three year old daughter and we have had many a conversation already about this. She has a very brilliant theological mind that I am pouring Scripture into and it is my prayer that if she has the gift of teaching and leadership, as she seems to be developing, that God would use her mightily for his gospel as He has already begun to. Yesterday as I was getting ready in the morning she came in and kissed me and sat down to visit. She told me that she was going to go to school and be very smart so that one day she could get married and be a mother and teach people about Jesus and help them. My headship is intended not to stunt her, but to love and encourage her in a safe place where she can have the core of her theology and relationship with Christ sorted out and in practice before age four.
For the single women, it would be to your benefit to have a godly older man function as a loving father to you for your encouragement and protection. It will in practical ways get you close enough to a good family to also learn from their modelling, have a good wife to speak with about things you are curious of, and help you learn to relate to men in a safe and healthy context.
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Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-02-2001 09:38 AM
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God is a good Father. We are often bad children. But, I would say that God's reputation is maligned by many who claim to be His children when in fact they may not be. Are God's true children perfect? No. But do God's children have a tender and obedient heart toward Him? Yes. If they do not, they are either in rebellion for which He disciplines them to correct their error, or they may not be His children at all. If many in the church are not His children then that would explain the way they treat the Father, because He may not be their Father. As Jesus said, some have the devil for their Father. And, the crowd He was speaking to thought that God was their Father. Just something to consider.
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Viv
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 10:07 AM
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To the question of a single woman's role within the church, I can only speak from experience. I am a strong, stubborn, independant, and capable woman (single). Before I understood my role as it relates to headship, I carried the full weight of the ministry I run. When it began to creep into my personal life and run me over, my pastor stepped in and offered headship over me. Nothing much has changed in the way everything looks, but the huge weight I had been carrying has now been lifted off my shoulders, and I am working at changing the way in which I minister to these women. I am still a leader within the church, but I am made stronger by the headship placed over me.
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Brother Jim
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 10:23 AM
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Excellent thread WWII.
So here I am.
My family is out of order, I want to be a Man of God.
I want to repent.
I want to make a difference.
I want to show my wife and kids I am a man of God.
I have failed in the past.
Once things are out of wack, where do I begin?
What is my next step after repentence?
How do I build that trust back up with my family who has lived with me for this long not being a real man?
How much do I let them in on what I am trying to do and be?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-02-2001 10:57 AM
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"If we claim we have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk by the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son, purifies us from all sin." - I John 6-7
Brother Jim. I appreciate the forthright honesty. This is why, gentlemen, we need to avoid legalism while still providing practical solutions to teachable people.
Not knowing you or what you've done, I'll give you some general guidelines.
Begin with a day set aside for fasting and prayer. Get off somewhere where you can be alone and ask God to convict you of the specific sins you have committed against your wife, children, and Lord. Write each of them down. This may take some time and your flesh will want to distract itself by thinking about other things. Submit yourself to the Spirit of God and yield to His ministry of conviction that includes both the outer things you have done and the condition of your mind and heart with such things as lust, bitterness, etc.
When you have your pages of items, go through each one in the following process:
Conviction - yield yourself to the conviction the Spirit of God brings to you
Confession - agree with God that each of those things He convicts you of is a sin without trying to lessen or justify your actions
Repentance - ask God to forgive you and thank Him that Jesus Christ has died for each of those things that you have done. Also ask God to give you the grace to put to death those things (not just try to manage and cope with them) and have the Holy Spirit take over each of those areas (i.e. financial, sexual, bitterness, lying, etc.) and come and renew and rebuild those areas you have given over to the enemy and your own flesh.
Restitution - you must then go to everyone you have wronged and apologize to them and ask their forgiveness. With your children, if they are young you will need to use discretion on how much you tell them since some details may be too much for young ears. Your wife, however, should be told specifically what you have done and see you humbly repentant and sincerely broken. You will need to pray with her and your children and repent of how your failures have caused further sins to enter your home and family.
Maturity - once you have cleaned up the junk in your life you will then have to fill it with profitable and worthwhile things that honor God. You should be in a good Bible teaching church with male elders. You should meet with one of those godly men and seek his counsel on what to read and how to proceed in an accountable relationship with a more faithful man who can encourage, discipline, and teach you. You will want to encourage the same thing for your wife with another woman. If your sins are fairly simple (i.e. you've been lazy in your work) then a few brothers would be of good counsel and admonition. However, if your sins are faily complex (i.e. you have committed adultery on your wife) then you will need a strong and wise man that you can submit yourself to, to help God restore all that you have broken.
In all of this, what will fight you is your pride. Each man is arrogant and so we fail to confess entirely, or we partially confess, or we confess fully to God and do not disclose our sins to our wives and men of God. Or, we begin the process and then flee before we have fully been restored. All of this leads to further bondage, shame, and death.
On reading, I would recommend the following: spend some considerable time in Proverbs and commit many of them to memory. This is a tremendous book filled with practical insight. Read and memorize Scipture that relates to your particular issues so that you can begin the renewing of your mind. If your issues surround foolish living Ecclesiastes is tremendous. If your issues are sexual, the Song of Songs are wonderful. If you are unclear about the gospel go to Romans. If you are a young man, spend time in I Timothy, II Timothy, and Titus.
On books, I have been the most blessed by the works of Douglas Wilson. You can find his works on Amazon.com or at Canon Press. His is a man I first met in college shortly after coming to Christ and God is raising him up to speak frankly and biblically on some very important issues related to men and family.
May God's grace be with you. May you receive it.
[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 02-02-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Pastor Mark (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Brother Jim
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 11:05 AM
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Lots of details. Lots of work!
I accept the challenge
Thank you Pastor Mark
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Squatting Bear
Member posted 02-02-2001 12:19 PM
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Pastor Mark,
I've been wrestling with this whole masculinity issue long before MH existed -let alone these Midrash posts, searching for answers for years; and I just wanted to say that after reading this thread I feel like I've just had my first meal in a long time.
Thank you, and thank God who is the way, the truth, and the life. There is hope.
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William Wallace II
Member posted 02-02-2001 12:47 PM
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"A good man leaves an inheritance for his children's childrens, but a sinners wealth is stored up for the righteous." - Proverbs 13:22
Today, practical theology on male headship as related to finances.
Your money belongs to God. Every nickel is God's. You are to give firstfruits (that means your first and best) to your God through your church as an act of worship and faith.
What is left still belongs to God and is a resource to be invested for His glory and your joy. As a man you should not consume all of your resources and thereby rob God and the generations to come after you. You should also avoid debt because Scripture declares it is a form of slavery that robs you of your freedom (Proverbs 22:7b).
Yes, even the finances of your children's children is your responsibility as the head of your home. You should be seeking to invest and save your money wisely so that one day if you should die you've got a sound investment portfolio and life insurance plan that ensures your wife will not have to take a job, throw the kids in daycare and provide for your family. You should also teach your family on financial matters so that you are leaving wisdom in addition to money.
And, you should be saving so that one day when your children are in need for such things as an education or a home you can kiss them, tell them you love them and were thinking of them before they were born, and write them a check and quote Proverbs to show you embraced the wisdom of God.
And, when you are old and gray you should not get one of those foolish bumper stickers that says "We are spending our children's inheritance" because you are not a foolish pagan. Instead, you should also rejoice in the opportunity to financially bless your children's children.
As a newly married man I began a retirement account and large whole life insurance policy to ensure that should something happen to me my children and my children's children would be blessed. I recently also purchased my first home and am now refinancing to lower my interest rate. This home is an investment both in and for my family and future generations. I have been very clear with my daughter that I am saving for her future. I told her that one day she and her brother would get our home as a gift. Being a good three year-old investor she immediately told me that she would sell it for the money.
I also have no plan of retiring because I do not see it in Scripture. My goal is not to take Viagra, buy a boat, golf and get a really big tv. But, I do long for the day when I can serve Christ without collecting any salary and giving my money to my grandsons so that they can plant their churches. Right now I'm thinking about sitting in a pew and hearing my grandson preach the gospel and it makes me cry.
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sniff
Member posted 02-02-2001 01:57 PM
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Sure got quiet around here. I know you are still out there. I know you don't all feel "called" to give. It isn't your ministry. If God intended you to give he'd have made you a millionaire, right?
All righty, then. Let's start going through a couple of scriptures.
Leviticus 27:30 - A tenth of everything that comes from the land belongs to the Lord. Feel a little uncomfortable about whether this is a law we are held to?
Malachi - old testament - God does two things. He calls you a robber if you don't give, and he promises to open treasures to you if you do. He calls for us to throw down - "Test me in this" He says. Check it out - Malachi 3:6-12.
New Testament - Jesus validates the idea of tithing and giving over and over again in the gospels - can't find them? Post and I'll point them out.
And finally, in Paul's instructions to the church in Corinthians (1 Cor 9:1-14) he clearly speaks about giving as being a global function of the church. That we are to support our ministers and missionaries. Yet our pastors are dirt poor, have second jobs, scrape by, itinerate from other churches. Here we are in Seattle, one of the wealthiest cities in the wealthiest country in the world, and our pastors - at your church and mine - are scratching out a living. And I'd really like to know why I feel so all alone in this.
Sure, once in a while they get a "special gift" from the congregation. Yeah, I've seen those - 1 person give 90% of everything that is raised.
I would LOVE to hear why you don't give. I would love to hear why you don't "tithe on the increase." So, if you are scared, make up a new handle, log on and tell us about it.
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William Wallace II
Member posted 02-02-2001 02:16 PM
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It does tend to get real quiet when we walk away from the world of ideas and finger pointing and bottom line things in some practical ways. That is another sign of a male lesbian. Men love to talk about other men and the ideas of other men, but they resist becoming a man, reconsidering their ideas, and living them out practically.
How about this. If you are a young single man working dead end jobs, barely making ends meet, and trying to slack as long as possible what in the world are you thinking? Why haven't you pursued a career? And don't tell me it's because you are in school. Some of you are pursuing real degrees, but many of you are on the seven year I haven't declared my major and am prolonging high school as long as I can plan by taking classes that don't relate to anything but tickle my little fancy and make me feel like a really well well educated male lesbian circular track.
Why is your checkbook never balanced, your mailbox filled with bounced check statements, and your friends upset that you are always late with the rent and bumming money from them? Do you think one day you will wake up with lots of money and a good mind for sound investment? Do you think one day you'll write a fat check and repay to God everything you stole?
Do you think that maybe you are still single because you are a joke?
[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 02-02-2001).]
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sniff
Member posted 02-02-2001 02:39 PM
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Ouch, Will.
I don't stand to make anything from this. I am pretty sure that there's nobody from my church reading this, tho' I am pretty sure that there are people not from MH reading this.
There is, in other words, nothing in this for me. So quit telling yourself that there is a couple of pastors looking to hit the big time. I ain't a pastor, but I do have a job, support my family, tithe to my church, give to missionaries around the world, give to charities, and give when the special gift buckets get passed around - and love the opportunity for every check that I write, and every dollar I drop in. And no, I am not rich.
I'll bet though, that if you have a legitimate relationship with your pastor, he would sit down with you, and tell you all about the finances in the church. When that group from Illinois is scheduled to stop supporting. How many people on average there are in the services, how many people are "members", how much rent, lights, phones, computers, and that cute little projector machine costs, and finally, how much money he takes home and then tithes - that's right, tithes, out of. And when you are going through this, you'll notice that when you add up the single men, the married men, and the single women (not widows or orphans); you'll find that the average income of the 175 regulars must be something like $2/hour. And this in a city where rent for a 1000 sq. ft. apartment in the swank Capitol Hill district is $2000/month.
What's up, guys? I'm still waiting for a response.
[This message has been edited by sniff (edited 02-02-2001).]
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William Wallace II
Member posted 02-02-2001 02:47 PM
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Sniff. I appreciate the attempts to pull some folks out for a chat. It is an important one. Jesus says where our cash goes is a healthy indicator of who/what we love most. If worship is sacrifice, then whatever we sacrifice the most for is likely our object of worship. Somehow many young men have disconnected the practical dimensions of their faith from their God. It is a form of gnosticism whereby as long as I really love God deeply in my spiritual heart then my money, body, time, food, drink and the like are not really spiritual things connected to my worship because I have a personal invisible and immaterial relationship with God.
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Jason Hickner
Member posted 02-02-2001 03:35 PM
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uh, i'll chime in.
i don't think i've ever been part of a conversation about tithing. in churches i've been in it's always something you're not supposed to talk about.
i do freelance work, so my paycheck comes 2 or three times a year, when a project completes. the first time i figured out what i should tithe from 6 months pay, it was pretty tough. now, though, tithing is something i look forward to. i guess for me, it's all part of a system. i make decisions in my business based on prayer and what i feel lead to do, not so much on what makes sense to me. so, at the end of the day, when somehow things have turned out not only ok, but better than i would have hoped, there's no way i can make myself believe that it's any of my doing. some would say this has caused a lot of problems for me. business partners have left because of it, and so on. well, that's why you shouldn't have non-christian business partners. the way we christians live is wacko. there's a verse, i forget where, that says "take no thought for your body, nor your life." that verse changed my life. being able to tithe is very closely linked to pride. if you are not letting god lead your life, than you'll have a hard time justifying to yourself why god "deserves" your money. let him lead you, though, and it's a different story. it's like this, if you are trusting god for the way in which you make money, than it's going to make a lot more sense why you need to give it back. it becomes a lot clearer that it's not yours to keep.
wow, this is a very uncomfortable subject to talk about. i feel like i'm talking about my paycheck with my coworkers.
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sniff
Member posted 02-02-2001 03:38 PM
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I seem to remember that there is some discussion going on about what to look for in a godly woman - haven't been following the string because I already have mine. But...Ladies, one of the things you should look for in your godly man is regular tithing.
1) If this guy really believes God's word, but isn't generous with God, what makes you think he is going to be generous with you when he is done wooing you?
2) More to the point, if God promises to open His treasure-store if we tithe, but the man in question doesn't tithe - what does this tell us about how God is going to bless him?
3) And finally, if God calls him a mere robber, what is it that you see in him?
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Zippity Doo Dah
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 04:43 PM
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So, questions, questions, questions for the Brave Heart or the Runny Nose. or anyoneelse that feels qualified (please state qual's truthfully) to answer these questions, questions, questions of quantification. Like:
Do you tithe on the gross or the net?
Should I tithe before or after taxes?
Is it ethical to take tax deductions for my tithes?
Is 5% still a tithe?
I'm a student, poor, say, no income for the heck of it? Should I tithe?
What is the difference between that oft-quoted phrase "tithes and offerings"?
Why should I tithe to the local church - or are you not implying that?
Should I give monies to local charities or ministries - for example, street ministries - or direct them through the body, local body, the community church in which I am involved...?
If I am a woman should I tithe - after all, I am not a "head"?
What about my friends whose husbands don't believe?
And why did Mr. Snuffles indicate (not widows and orphans)?
And Billy, if you ain't got the cash, you ain't got the cash. So I might have to write the big check later - what's wrong with that?
It makes me feel so creepy and judged to know that my pastor and elders know how much I do or do not give. So, do you, would you judge or look down on me for not?
What would the church do with all the extra CASH that it recieved if everybody by some vast and overwhelming miracle from the LORD on high started giving like they "should"?
Finally, the church is just a business anyway, right? So aren't you kind of making it look like people give to the church to make themselves feel better? Kind of like, "We sell feel-good!"?
Is it that important to give, REALLY, or are you just looking out for your own neck?
Can't I just feed and clothe apart from the church?
AND FINALLY - the huffer quoted 1 Cor 9:1-14 - very clever, BUT, right after that Paul talks about how HE didn't take that. He was after all, a tent-maker, right? hmmmmmmm?
And shouldn't we all - especially pastors and missionaries - strive to be like Paul????
Looking forward to your answers, answers, answers to my questions, questions, questions of quantification. ciao
:P
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solar
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 04:45 PM
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Many apologies for taking us off the topic of tithing, but I am intrigued by the first few posts.
This string is music to my ears after laboring through the pussified nation string. Finally, some practical questions/answers!
I am a young married man just learning how to be the head of my household. I would like to tell you a story about keys, and ask for the advice of my married brothers.
My wife does not like keychains. Her preferred method of key storage is to keep individual keys in the coin section of her purse (or in a pocket, on the dresser, in a gym bag, etc). I counseled her against this, but respected her difference of opinion.
A year ago her soccer bag was stolen off our back porch. That soccer bag had our car key in it. A few hours later the car was gone.
We recovered our car a few weeks later (flat tires, ditched a few blocks from our house, full of heroin paraphenalia), but we had to sell the car because someone out there still had the key. I told her that she needed to start using a keychain. A small, practical step that I felt needed to happen.
She resisted (she is a VERY strong woman) but eventually resigned herself to keychain usage.
A few months later, back to individual keys. I admit, this annoyed me, but I was silent. Often, she would misplace one key or another and ask to borrow my keys. I would glare at her and tell her she needed to keep her keys on a chain. She would glare back and thank me for my concern, but assure me that it was her business what she did with her keys.
After reading through said pussified nation string, much has changed in my life. I realize that I have no idea how to be a man and lead my wife. I realize I have no idea how to interact with women in general, be they mother, sister, or wife. I have tried harder to serve her, I have repented from sin, and I have prayed earnestly for wisdom in leading.
I have also felt convicted about the keys. A small matter, I know.
Last week when she asked me for my keys, I handed them over and told her she needed to get a keychain. She laughed and shrugged it off.
I told her the next day that I wanted her to get a keychain and keep her keys on it. She laughed and shrugged it off.
Last night I asked her for her keys. She gave them to me. I told her she could have them back when she promised she would keep them on a key chain. I told her I loved her, but I felt the security of our house was at risk in an individual key situation. I spent half an hour explaining myself and my reasoning. When it got circular, I gently told her it was not a request.
To say the least, she is unhappy with me. She will not speak with me unless I apologize for trying to overstep my boundaries as her husband. She insists I have no right to command her on such a trivial issue.
I encouraged her to speak with the elders.
I love my wife, and I am very far from domineering. I am also a bit of a pussy, but I want to be a good leader and a good husband to her.
Married men of God, kick my ass because I need it so bad. Am I overcompensating for my lack of manhood by squabbling over minutia?
Is she a contentious woman that needs to submit to her husband?
I await your prayerful responses.
-solar, man of the Adam.
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Rusty
Member posted 02-02-2001 04:59 PM
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Solar
Marriage is not a dictatorship (please feel free to check out my rant What's Rusty's Problem Anyway? and Mark's reply.) Marriage is like the present U.S. Senate were there is a 50/50 tie. Men are like the Republicans (almost always right but always getting bad press) and women are like the Democrats (wel-meaning but you know.) In order for anything to get done there should and has to be compromise. If there is a 50/50 tie the Republicans can whip out DICK Cheney to brake the tie and men can too. But if you use DICK too much the Democrats can filibuster everything and nothing is accomplished.
In this particular situation I would ask her if there is any particular pet peeve that she has with you (i.e leaving the toilet seat up, farting) and see if some quid pro quo can be arranged.
-Rusty
Edited for poor grammer and spelling
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02-02-2001).]
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sniff
Member posted 02-02-2001 05:04 PM
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Ah, mon ami. Such are the travails of love, no?
Your wife will undoubtedly be very displeased about this post, were she to find out about it, no? Your wife sounds a lot like mine. Honh, honh! (Zat vus French).
And in all seriousness, as a married man, I can relate. I must say you handled it well. You were gentle, you were concerned, you were reasonable, and finally you were strong. Directing her to the elders of your church, and I am assuming that they are good, thoughtful, "disinterested" elders, was an excellent move. After all, if you both submit to their decision, then it will be settled.
This is, however, the situation of which I was speaking earlier. That it isn't this cut and dry, I am a man of God who prays 5 hours a day, reads the Psalms in church, leads a small group, tithes regularly and am spiritually buff. Sometimes there are going to be conflicts. But ESPECIALLY in those conflicts your relationship is made.
Your response and concern and tenderness is downright studly if you ask me - which you kind of did. Though I am quite interested in what Wallace II, Will will say.
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Rusty
Member posted 02-02-2001 05:09 PM
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Solar,
Quick note. Do not compromise too much like, the Divorce guy Jeremy Q.
-Rusty
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SlimeFlux
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 05:19 PM
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If marriage is analogous to the legislative branch of the US government, I'm never getting married. When was the last time the Democrats willfully submitted to the republicans?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-02-2001 05:31 PM
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"The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double [financial] honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain.' and 'The worker deserves his wages." - I Timothy 5:17-18
I'll take the question straight up.
I do not believe the Old Testament tithe is binding upon believers today. The Old Testament tithe including a flat 10% of your gross income of the top. In addition to that were various offerings, festivals and the like that would require an additional portion of your income calculated to be as high as 17% for a total of 27% of your gross (hence the concept of giving first to the Lord).
As a practical matter, however, I've always thought that the 10% was a good place to start. In 2 Corinthians 8-9 Paul says the giving should be sacrificial, regular, and cheerful. This is a conscience issue for you. God is concerned about both the amount that you give, and the spirit with which you give it. If you are a broke college student it may not take much money for you to be sacrificial. The widows few cents were a generous act of worship according to Jesus. I would say, however, that you should do something financially to be faithful in this area, especially in your poverty as 2 Corinthians 8:1-4 indicates. It is a demonstration of your love for and faith in God.
As to pastors working for free, there are likely some circumstances whereby a man should. But, in a society such as ours where the people in the church make good money to expect others to work 80 hours a week for free seems rather unfair to those pastors and their families. Would you expect the same of your Christian mechanic, your Christian college professor, your Christian doctor, your Christian car dealer and the like? Work for free boys, and don't complain because you're doing it for Jesus. If you think churches are poorly lead today can you guess what kind of men would take such a job and what the churches would then look like?
For the first few years of my church I raised my salary entirely from the outside and did work for free thanks to the generous help of outside churches (notice that someone always has to pick up the tab). At present I have two part-time jobs in addition to my pastorate to allow me to make enough to live in the city near my church, keep my wife at home with our kids, tithe to our ministry, and open our home to about 60 people a week for Bibles studies, counseling, meals, and buy wedding and baby gifts for the masses etc. As a man, I was built to work and I do not mind working and never have. My father hung drywall for 25 years to feed our family and after watching him literally break his back and undergo surgery I'll never whine about my job. I love what I do and have no regrets.
Lastly, a lot of pastors duck this issue. But, my experience suggests it is only because they are proud and afraid of what people might think of them. What they end up doing is saving face with their people and losing face with their family as their wife and children get embittered against the church because their father doesn't make enough to pull things together and mom ends up taking a part-time job to make up for the sin of the men who failed to tithe and her husband who failed to teach and discipline them on the issue.
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Rusty
Member posted 02-02-2001 06:23 PM
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SlimeFlux,
No one said marraige was easy hence Mark bringing up what a real man is.
-Rusty
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Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-02-2001 06:34 PM
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Solar.
Now you know why the buck must stop somewhere. A man can certainly use his authority to be a jerk, but he can also use it to enforce wisdom and order in a firm yet loving way. Your example is a perfect illustration of why marriage and decision making cannot be a 50/50 deal. Why? Because upon occasion you will disagree and someone needs to make the decision and be responsible for it. You are not out of line. And, to your wife this is not about keys and chains, it is about headship and submission. Some men on this site would sneer at such an outlook, but they would also naively think that they and their wife will always agree about everything and that sin is not a part of their life and that they will be in complete harmony all the time.
And, they likely also wait up for the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, and Santa Claus to tuck them in bed every night.
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fakeout
Junior Member posted 02-02-2001 11:25 PM
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i am headship
[This message has been edited by fakeout (edited 02-03-2001).]
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for the love of god
Junior Member posted 02-03-2001 12:55 AM
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huh?
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zugbot
Member posted 02-03-2001 07:28 AM
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-- OFF TOPIC --
Fakeout --
Stay on topic. You did not post anything related to this thread that had not been addressed elsewhere.
Your distractions steal resources away from from the mentoring of Godly fathers and husbands.
If you seriously think that you have an issue you can 1) start another thread addressing it, or 2) go to the person directly.
Your time may not be valuable, but mine is.
-- OFF TOPIC --
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zugbot
Member posted 02-03-2001 07:50 AM
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Solar --
Thanks for the real world example/question. Anyone who calls it voyeuristic can stick a sock in it.
It is not.
Funny how there seemed to be a post up here last night at around 7 pm that said the question/background solar posted was a little too private, but now it, like other posts on this board, has been edited or deleted by it’s poster. Please people – if you’re gonna post something, make sure you to leave it up so that the flow of the thread stays linear. Your pride is not that important.
You displayed tact in your question and, from your description of events, it sounds like you walk it out in grace and authority.
--
Everybody else --
We as men (and yes women for that matter) need to tactfully chime in with encouragement/examples/wisdom/warnings from our own lives so that we can practically walk through this issue.
How else are we going to teach the skill of discernment so that men know they are not being violent or dishonoring by walking in the graceful authority God has called them to.
I’ll post specific examples from my life later that involve kittens and lesbians. I’d do it now, but I’m working on the tact part…
It’s hard to talk about kittens and lesbians in a real world experience without sounding voyeuristic.
-- zugbot
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olderthannoah
Member posted 02-03-2001 04:55 PM
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my two cents...as a husband & father, there is nothing more frightening to me than the idea that someday I might consider the authority that the Lord has given me and tell Him, "Thanks, I'll take it from here..."
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olderthannoah
Member posted 02-03-2001 04:57 PM
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by the way, my thoughts & fervent prayers are with you fellas right now...without being too melodramatic, this is no small duty that you are pledging yourselves to undertake.
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ReformUrAss
Member posted 02-03-2001 09:39 PM
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Question about headship pastor.
Does headship apply when there has been no clear covenant established? Like in my ministry. I teach kids in prison. They respect me and listen to my instruction. But they don't call me pastor or act like I am in a clear role of authority over them. I hold them accountable as a more mature believer but it doesn't go beyond that.
Will God hold me accountable for their sins? How much responsibility is on one in a role of leadership of this type. I know James 3 says I will be held to a higher standard by God because I teach, but does that mean "headship".
Does one who is in headship have responsibility to get his respect for that duty?
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Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-04-2001 08:59 AM
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Fakeout, thank you for editing your post. A few days ago I was going to post and request that you edit it to keep this thread clean and on topic. But, I prayed for you and asked that God would ask you to do so. Thank you for heeding your conscience. I tend to be a hot head and if I blow off a response I usually regret it about an hour later, and so I do relate. Thanks again.
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xrizxomiz
Member posted 02-05-2001 11:51 AM
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On the subject of headship, I want to throw
out a few questions/comments on the nature of Christ's headship and what effect this has on His bride, the church. I realize this is not the particular direction this thread is intended to take, but I think it bears directly on the issue of headship in all other relationships. As Van Til used to say, "Christ's headship is creativley constructive [archtypal], while all other headships are receptively reconstructive [echtypal]."
Does the church's missional mandate include, but is in no way exhausted by, headship over all things?
After reading and reflecting on Ephesians 1:18-23, it became apparent to me that the Church is called to a position of headship that is the direct result of Christ's headship over all things. The difficulty in these verses is discerning what is meant by "22And He [the Father of glory, v.17b] put all things in subjection under His feet [our Lord Jesus Christ, v.17a], and gave Him as head over all things *to the church*,23which is *His body*, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." It seems that Paul is describing a relationship wherein the body of Christ [the church] is called and ordained by the Father to participate in the Headship of Christ over all things. This participation (for the lack of a better word) necessarily involves becoming "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (v.23b, cf. 3:9-11).
This view of the church and its status/role in the history of God's redemptive plan(s) from Genesis to Revelation, is what is known as a "High Ecclesiology". I believe this view of the church was held by Augustine, many of the Reformers, and most of the Puritans. In today's theological conundrum, this view of the Church is associated with Postmillennialism.
So whithout straying too far off the subject of this thread, are we being faithful to the biblical testimony concerning headship when we teach such a weak and ineffectual view of the church's role and responsibility to participate in Christ's headship over all things?
BTW, I think Mars Hill teaches a High Christology but is inconsistent when it teaches the final defeat/apostasy of the church. I guess in this case we can thank God for the good of our inconsistencies while we blame ourselves for the bad of our inconsistencies
"Ecclesia Reformata, Semper Reformanda Est"
Author Topic: Headship
Pastor Mark
Administrator posted 02-05-2001 09:37 PM
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