Meet the Press – February 7, 2016
CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, the critical New Hampshire primary, now just two days away. Last night, the most bitter Republican debate yet. SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
It’s just not true–
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:There it is–
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
He knows exactly what he’s doing–
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:
There it is, the memorized 25 second speech! CHUCK TODD:
At stake, can Donald Trump rebound from his disappointing Iowa finish? Can Marco Rubio keep his momentum going and surge in New Hampshire? Can Bush, Kasich or Christie survive beyond Tuesday? Donald Trump joins me, face-to-face
Plus, the Democrats are going after each other too.
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Artful smear, innuendo and insinuation. CHUCK TODD:Can Hillary Clinton have her own comeback kid style New Hampshire moment? Can Bernie Sanders turn a New Hampshire blowout into a national movement? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
What leadership is about is not just swimming with the current.
CHUCK TODD:
Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are with us this morning. And “Bern Your Enthusiasm.” Was that Bernie Sanders on SNL last night? Or Larry David? Or both? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:It’s pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty, good. CHUCK TODD:I’m Chuck Todd in Manchester, New Hampshire. Joining me for insight and analysis this special Sunday morning are: MSNBC’s Chris Matthews, NBC’s Andrea Mitchell, Hallie Jackson also of NBC News, and radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt. Trump, Sanders, Clinton and the latest numbers. Welcome to Sunday, and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From Manchester, New Hampshire, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Chuck Todd. CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Here we are right here in New Hampshire, the site of Tuesday’s primary. We’re right here in NBC News’ fabulous New Hampshire headquarters two days before what may be one of the most important days in American politics this year. At last night’s Republican debate as our Washington Post colleague Dan Balz put it, Marco Rubio hit a wall named Chris Christie.
(BEGIN TAPE)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
This notion that Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing is just not true–
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:
There it is–
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
He knows exactly what he’s doing–
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE
There it is, the memorized 25 second speech!
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
And it only got worse from there with Rubio. We’ll have much more on the debate later this morning. Joining us today are three candidates who are all counting on Tuesday to help send them to the nomination and perhaps onto the White House. Republican Donald Trump and the two candidates vying for the Democratic nod, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. But before we get to the interviews, let’s take a look at the very latest tracking polls out this morning. CNN/WMUR has Trump with a big lead still. He’s at 33 percent, followed by Rubio, Cruz, Kasich, and Bush in that order. For what it’s worth, Rubio’s momentum appears to have stopped in this poll and that’s before the debate is factored in.
For the Democrats, this poll has Sanders up big, 58-35 over Clinton, though it is worth noting, Clinton has picked up seven points in the last few days. And this morning’s UMass/7News tracking poll, they have Trump still with a big lead, sitting at 36 percent, and the order below him: Rubio, Cruz, Bush, and Kasich. The Democratic side, they have this race a bit closer, Sanders with a 17-point lead, 57-40, that is up slightly from yesterday’s poll. But one thing to remember about New Hampshire, it’s the graveyard of pollsters. We’ll have my interview this morning with Donald Trump in just a few minutes. But we’re going to begin with the Democrats and former secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. You liked that graveyard of pollsters, didn’t you? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, I’ve been through this twice–
CHUCK TODD:
You’ve lived through this. Yes.
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
–in ’92 and 2008. And look, I know I’m behind and I’m going to keep fighting until the very last vote is counted because I care about this primary. CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think you started with such a big deficit this time, considering, look, this has been a big state to both your husband and yourself. Very important. They always help you. SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, look. I can’t sit here and analyze all the reasons. Obviously one is that, you know, the senator has been in public life next door for 25 years. So there’s a familiarity with him. I totally respect that. And I just think that what’s great about this primary is New Hampshire voters take a first, second, third, fourth, fifth look. I mean, yesterday as I was crisscrossing from one side of the state to the other, talking to voters, I literally had people come up, say, “You changed my mind.” You know, who knows.
I mean, this is what’s so exciting about the primary, Chuck. I came in in 2008, as I recall, like, 16 points behind. I remember the night before the primary in ’92, Bill’s pollster saying, you know, “You’re in single digits, it’s over.” Who knows? I love this excitement. And, you know, I’m going to fight as hard as I can. But I’m having a great time, whatever happens. CHUCK TODD:
All right, let’s talk, I want to go to the debate a little bit. Because I would say the foreign policy section is one that you guys wanted to highlight because you felt as if he didn’t do so well. You brought up Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to talk about it, but some of the thing that you said about Senator Obama’s readiness on foreign policy, they are very similar to what you’ve said about Bernie Sanders. In ’08, you said, “I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House. Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002.” It sounds very similar to what you said when you were like, okay, you had one vote on the Iraq War.
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, you know what–
CHUCK TODD:
What’s the difference between what you said about then Senator Obama and what you’re saying about Senator Sanders? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
There’s a very big difference. In 2008, Senator Obama had really done his homework in the Senate. He’d been there, by that time, a few years. He had developed a network of advisors on national security and foreign policy issues. They were very diligent and focused on making sure he was ready, that he had as broad a set of views as possible. And they really went toe-to-toe with all the people supporting me. That’s not happening in this campaign. There really isn’t any kind of foreign policy network that is supporting and advising Senator Sanders. I’ll let him speak for himself. I think that what’s important is this job requires you to be ready on all aspects of it on the first day. And we know we’ve got a particularly complex world right now. And the President’s not going to have the time.
Maybe previous presidents in past years could have a little more leeway because of the, you know, way the world functioned. But now it’s North Korea with its missile tests, it’s Russian aggression, it’s enforcing the Iran agreement. You have to do it all at once. CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the Iraq vote should still matter to voters? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Look, I think that voters are perfectly free to take into account anything they want to take. But I also hope they’ll take the rest of the record. You know, I was involved in the biggest counterterrorism decision in the Obama administration, to determine whether or not to go after bin Laden. I did put the sanctions on Iran to get them to the negotiating table. I think that this is a debate that the voters really have to pay attention to, because it is choosing both a president and a commander-in-chief.
CHUCK TODD:
I’m curious. Do you believe if it wasn’t for the Iraq War, we wouldn’t have ISIS today? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, I think that’s a hard conclusion to draw, because remember, we had Al Qaeda before we had ISIS. Al Qaeda attacked us in New York, Al Qaeda attacked our embassies in Africa. CHUCK TODD:
But the argument is that the instability in Iraq is what has created this. And that if Saddam Hussein were still there, we wouldn’t have ISIS.
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, I think that’s a lot of jumps in logic that to me doesn’t really add up. The Iraq War, there’s no doubt contributed to instability. I’m not going to in any way deny that. But you cannot draw a direct line. What you can do is to say that jihadist terrorism, starting with Al Qaeda, and moving onto its latest incarnations, most particularly ISIS, is in response to a number of forces in factors that are roiling up the Middle East and certainly fighting for what Islam means and how it’s going to be presented and what people are going to mean when they talk about it. So yeah, we’ve got a much bigger set of problems. CHUCK TODD:
All right, another thing I wanted to follow up on the debate, Senator Sanders called the entire business model of Wall Street a fraud. We didn’t get a chance to ask you to respond directly to that critique. I’d like to ask you to respond to it now. SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, I think it’s the kind of extreme statement that once you really take a hard look at it, it’s hard to understand. You know, when you talk about Wall Street, are we talking about every bank or are we talking about a particular part of New York? That’s never really clarified. What I believe is that there are good actors and bad actors in every part of our economy.
The job of the president is to weed out and prevent the bad actors from disrupting economic activity from amassing too much power and influence. But we live in a complex, global economy where we’ve got to have a good banking system that is able to service the American economy. And it needs to be more than just looking at the five banks that are the big banks. We have to have a much more robust community banking system, regional banking system, other forms of credit access. And that’s what I am advocating for. And I still do not understand why I’m having this problem getting Senator Sanders to join me in going after what are the potential problems that are out there, the shadow banking sector, and the investment and hedge fund sector. CHUCK TODD:
Can you have a Treasury secretary who isn’t familiar with how Wall Street works? And I say this because I think there’s so much distrust right now of Wall Street.
HILLARY CLINTON:
Yes, there is, there is. CHUCK TODD:
Six of the last Treasury secretaries either came from Wall Street or went to Wall Street after. I think there certainly right now isn’t an appetite for somebody from Wall Street to be the next Treasury secretary. And yet, can you have a Treasury secretary if they don’t understand Wall Street? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, you have to have a Treasury secretary who understands the economy, the American economy and the global economy. I think there are a lot more places where one can and should look for such a Treasury secretary.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think you can pick one without having them have a Wall Street background? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well, you know, I want somebody who can make a good commitment to work with me to get the economy moving, to get more good jobs created, to get incomes rising, to look out over the horizon at some of the economic problems that are out there. We’ve got to figure out what we’re going to do with China. You know, China is finally having to come to grips with the fact that a lot of its growth may have not been as on a firm foundation as we would hope. So we need people in government who have that kind of commitment and understanding. But we’ve got to put the needs of the American economy first. And that’s going to be my commitment.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, I want to ask you about a comment. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said a comment that I’ve heard her say before. But it sort of rang differently to a lot of people. She said, “There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help women.” The implication is that somehow, if you’re a Democratic woman and you’re not supporting you, what’s wrong with you? Do you want the vote to be decided on gender lines? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Oh look, you know, as you remember, Madeleine has been saying this for many, many years. CHUCK TODD:
Right, Starbucks cups I think had it on there. I get that.
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
She believes it firmly. And in part, because she knows what a struggle it has been. And she understands the struggle is not over. So I don’t want people to be offended by what she is expressing as her very–
CHUCK TODD:
Do you understand why some might have been offended by it? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Well good grief, we’re getting offended by everything these days. Honest to goodness, I mean, people can’t say anything without offending somebody. She has a life experience that I respect. I admire her greatly. And I think what she was trying to do, what she’s done in every setting I’ve ever seen her in going back 20 plus years, was to remind young women, particularly, that you know, this struggle, which many of us have been part of, is not over. And don’t be in any way lulled by the progress we’ve made. And I think it was a light-hearted, but very pointed remark, which people can take however they choose. CHUCK TODD:
All right, what have you got in the Super Bowl?
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
I don’t have anybody right now–
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t have anybody? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
I’m going to Flint, Michigan. I’m worrying about the kids in Flint, Michigan right now, trying to figure out what we’re going to do to make sure they’re not damaged irreparably by this lead poisoning–
CHUCK TODD:
Well, you’re going today, you could have gone Wednesday. That says something about how you feel about New Hampshire? SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
I love New Hampshire. And, you know, the mayor asked me to come, this was the earliest we could get it done. I want to lend my support. I’m very hopeful that Congress, which is trying to work in a bipartisan way, will come up with some funding to deal with these problems that have afflicted the community and I’m going to keep doing everything I can to help them.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Clinton, I know you have a plane to catch. SEC.HILLARY CLINTON:
Thanks. CHUCK TODD:
All right.
SEC. HILLARY CLINTON:
Great to talk to you. CHUCK TODD:
Last night, I spoke with Senator Bernie Sanders from New York, where he was preparing to appear on Saturday Night Live. Here it is.
(BEGIN TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with some reviews from the debate. First half of the debate on Wall Street, you got some good reviews, but on foreign policy, I want to put up some headlines here, sir. Not so good.Boston Globe, “Sanders Flunks on Foreign Policy.”Washington Post, “Bernie Sanders Trips up on Foreign Policy During Dem Debate.” New Republic, “Bernie Sanders Could do Better on Foreign Policy Than Bringing up Hillary Clinton’s Iraq Vote.” How do you respond to that? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, you know, time after time when we have had these debates, the pundits keep thinking that Hillary Clinton wins the debates, but somehow, the people do not. And we did very well in Iowa. I think we’re doing well in New Hampshire and I think we’re doing well nationally.
Look, there’s no question that Hillary Clinton has a great deal of experience regarding foreign policy. She was our Secretary of State for four years, that gives her a lot of experience. But it is not just experience that matters, it is judgment. And I think that we have the judgment in terms of what we should do with ISIS right now that we should learn the lesson of the Iraq War, which I vigorously opposed, which means that we cannot, Chuck, do it alone. I will do everything that I can to make sure that our young men and women in the military do not get sucked into a perpetual warfare in the quagmire of the Middle East. CHUCK TODD:
But the concern I think is not about your policy on ISIS. Let me play for you something Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said on Saturday. Take a listen.
(BEGIN TAPE)
SEC. MADELEINE ALBRIGHT:
And I’ve been very concerned about his lack of knowledge. Most people know how many dictators North Korea has. I have spent an awful lot of time on the Hill in a variety of ways. I’ve gone up and done briefings and all kinds of things. Unless he looked totally different at the time, he has never been to any briefings.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
And let me stipulate, Madeleine Albright is a supporter of Clinton, okay? And she was brought up here by the Hillary Clinton campaign to talk about this. But her concern is about the level of interest you have on foreign policy. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Chuck, Chuck, it goes without saying. Number one, I have been to briefing after briefing after briefing. You know, in fact, just a couple of weeks ago when I visited with the President, one of the things that we talked about was Iran and foreign policy. It is obviously an enormously important part of what being a President is about. Now I don’t really know this, so maybe the answer is different, tell me what Madeleine Albright’s position was on the War in Iraq.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Well, I don’t know. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I wouldn’t be surprised if she supported that war. So you know, the issue here is not just experience, the issue is judgment. I voted against the first Gulf War, which history will record as the “right vote.” I led the opposition against the War in Iraq, which history will also record as being the right thing. Clearly, clearly, foreign policy is enormously important. And I will tell you this also, Chuck, if you go back to 2008, this is exactly what the Clinton people were doing to Senator Barack Obama. They were attacking him, he didn’t have the experience, et cetera, et cetera. I am absolutely confident that if elected President, we will have a very strong foreign policy for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
I think to alleviate some of these concerns, I know you didn’t tell me the other night when I asked you about who your foreign policy advisors are. Give me a few names of people you would end up considering as a Secretary of State or a Secretary of Defense. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I think it’s a little bit premature to talk about who your Secretary of Defense is going to be. I will tell you that we have met recently with people like Larry Korb, who actually worked in the Reagan Administration, we talked to people like Jim Zogby, talked to the people on J Street, to get a broad perspective of the Middle East. And I’ve been meeting with a whole lot of people. But let me reassure the American people, despite what they’re hearing from Madeleine Albright, that it goes without saying that a President must be well-versed in foreign policy, must have a strong foreign policy position and I will, of course, do that.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move onto something else that you said from the debate, it was a tough charge. And you yourself said this was going to be a tough charge when you said it. “The business model of Wall Street is fraud.” Boy, that was a broad brush. And I was thinking about the fact that there was a lot of union pension funds that are invested in Wall Street, 30 percent in many of them, when you look, I was looking up some of these things. A lot of 401Ks, a lot of retirement is based on investments in Wall Street. It seems to me if you believe it’s a fraud, you would not like to see money invested in something based on a fraud. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, Chuck, what I said I believe to be true. A few weeks ago, as you know, Goldman Sachs reached a settlement with the United States Government for £5 billion. £5 billion. Why? And the answer is obviously they were defrauding investors in terms of selling sub prime mortgage packages that were worthless.
Now that’s my definition of fraud. And other major banks also have paid huge settlement fines to the federal government. And what really burns the American people up is after paying £5 billion in a settlement agreement, none of these people, none of these executives on Wall Street get charged with anything. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
A kid gets caught with some marijuana, gets a police record. Fraudulent activity on Wall Street destroys the economy, no police record for any executives. So do I believe that the business model of Wall Street is fraud? I think the answer obviously is of course it is. CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, Super Bowl Sunday, who you got, sir?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Maybe the Broncos. CHUCK TODD:
All right, that’s who you’re rooting for or that’s who you think are going to win? SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Now I’m rooting for New England Patriots, but I’m afraid that that’s not going to happen.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
We’ll be back in a moment with the Republican race and my sit-down a few minutes ago with Donald Trump. And as we go to break, we’re going to give you some memorable moments from New Hampshire. Here’s one, Ronald Reagan showing the world what a formidable candidate he would become.
(BEGIN TAPE)
RONALD REAGAN:
Mr. Green, if you ask me, I am paying for this microphone, Mr. Green.
(END TAPE)
***COMMERCIAL BREAK***
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. By the way, we’re going to get snow on Tuesday on voting day. We’re broadcasting from the NBC News headquarters here in New Hampshire, an unbelievable setting that we have here. And just about anybody who is in politics, reports on politics, or just cares about politics, has decided to spend the last days before the primary just outside our doors. It was easy to grab four of the best, though, journalists for our panel this morning. We got my buddy Chris Matthews, who of course is host of Hardball, been here for many New Hampshire primaries. Our chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell, who is covering the Hillary Clinton campaign. Hallie Jackson, also with NBC, she’s been covering the Cruz campaign, and radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt, host of The Hugh HewittShow. All right. Let’s focus on last night’s Republican debate. Wow. Marco Rubio, look at these headlines in The New York Times, “GOP rivals jab at Rubio to try to slow his rise,” Washington Post, “Rubio endures an assault in a rollicking GOP debate,” Breitbart “Rubio rattled,” The Boston Herald this morning. I don’t have that out, I wish I could hold it up, “Choke” with Rubio. Hugh, this race got reshuffled on us last night, didn’t it?
HUGH HEWITT:
Well, Donald Trump won Tuesday night because he did not lose Saturday night. And I think John Kasich pole-vaulted over Marco Rubio into second place by being winsome and completely affable and being very New Hampshire. But I’m a contrarian on Rubio. He won all of that debate, except those three minutes. That will push him back. But he had a terrific second half. And I think he’ll get the bronze come Tuesday night. CHUCK TODD:
Wow, Chris? CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Well, that’s good, except the only problem you have is the videotape. And it exists.
HUGH HEWITT:
The three minutes? CHUCK TODD:
All right. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
And it’s a strange moment.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me pause. Let’s play the videotape–
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
It’s a strange thing to see on television. CHUCK TODD:
Look at this thing. It is rough, take a listen.
(BEGIN TAPE)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
And let’s dispel once and for all with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing. Let’s dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows exactly what he’s doing. This notion that Barack Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing is just not true. He knows exactly what he’s doing. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:
There it is, there it is. The memorized 25-second speech!
MARCO RUBIO:
We are not facing a president that doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows what he is doing. Anyone who believes that Barack Obama isn’t doing what he’s doing on purpose doesn’t understand what we’re dealing with here.
(END TAPE)
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
That was innumerable times repeating this thing, where it reminded me of the science fiction film Blade Runner, where someone, in this case, Chris Christie, set out to prove that that there was a replicant standing there, not a human being. It was strange, because he was reading these pre-recorded statements, which are, like, implanted memory tracks. They were not a human response. And I think he’s got the answer for it. And I think it was so strange, I have no idea why he did it. HALLIE JACKSON:
Here’s the thing. Every candidate has lines that they repeat. We’ve all been to a million stump speeches. We see every candidate do that again and again. Marco Rubio’s mistake here was getting up on that stage when his rivals are leveling that attack against him and doing it nonetheless. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Four times.
HALLIE JACKSON:
To play devil’s advocate–
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Same line. HALLIE JACKSON:
–the campaign, I mean, listen. This morning, people in Marco Robato costumes showed up at an event. CHUCK TODD:
Oh my gosh.
HALLIE JACKSON:
But the campaign would also point out that some 500 people also showed up 45 minutes before the doors opened. They were furiously trying to spin to a positive. I will say short term, we’re talking about this. Super Bowl tonight. Do people care into Tuesday? ANDREA MITCHELL:
But this is the Super Bowl of politics. And to repeat over and over again your one-liners in front of your rivals, and the audience–
HALLIE JACKSON:
Who are already pouncing. ANDREA MITCHELL:
–who are already calling him the boy in the bubble” and diminishing him, trying to diminish him, it really hits him right in his most vulnerable point.
CHUCK TODD:
Hugh, this is what’s perplexing to me. Christie telegraphed this for three days. HUGH HEWITT:
Yeah. CHUCK TODD:
This was obvious that it was coming. And this is how they prepared?
HUGH HEWITT:
Because he’s running a general election campaign before he’s secured the nomination. I’ll tell you what amused me last night on the Twitter feed. Is every Democrat out there is eager to bury Marco Rubio because they are afraid of Marco Rubio. They are desperately afraid of him. Therefore, I think what we’ve got is a South Carolina brouhaha that will follow this mix up. And it will go to the convention. It’s going to be an open convention because Rubio’s not going away. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Okay, just let me ask a one question, with the logic to doing it four times in a row, why did he do it four times in a row? HUGH HEWITT:
Because he’s talking to me. He’s talking to Republicans about Barack Obama. And he is going to run that–
CHRIS MATTHEWS:The same words over and over again?
HUGH HEWITT:
–general election campaign. “Barack Obama knew what he was doing to this country.” Now the Democrats hate that because it’s–
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
You mean if he could do it over again, he would repeat the line four times in a row–
HUGH HEWITT:
No, I do not mean that. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
What do you mean? HUGH HEWITT:
He ought to have folded it back on Christie a second time and say you’re missing–
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Why did he repeat himself?
HUGH HEWITT:
Because his staff had trained him and he learned to be disciplined and–
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That’s the problem. HALLIE JACKSON:
They’re playing to the base hitters. ANDREA MITCHELL:
Being staff-trained is not what these candidates need to show on that stage Hugh. They need to show that they have a functioning brain. This is a very smart man who could be president–
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, you know who we’re not talking about, we’re not talking about Donald Trump or Ted Cruz.
HUGH HEWITT:
Right. CHUCK TODD:
And that was what was– let me play a quick little, look, I thought Jeb Bush had one of his best moments with Donald Trump on the issue of eminent domain. Here’s a quick highlight.
(BEGIN TAPE)
JEB BUSH:
But what Donald Trump did was use eminent domain to try to take the property of an elderly woman on the strip in Atlantic City. That is not public purpose. That is downright wrong. DONALD TRUMP:
He wants to be a tough guy. A lot of times, you’ll have, and it doesn’t work very well–
JEB BUSH:
How tough is it to take–
DONALD TRUMP:
A lot of times–
JEB BUSH:
–property from an elderly woman?
DONALD TRUMP:
Let me talk, let me talk. Quiet. JEB BUSH:
How tough is it? DONALD TRUMP:
(BOOING) A lot of times, that’s all of his donors and special interests out there.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
It was a fascinating moment because, I mean, the issue is bad for Trump here. But I thought his retort there was probably good for him. ANDREA MITCHELL:
And the physical, the body language, you know, “Shh,” I mean, he was so patronizing. CHUCK TODD:
Very.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
It was very, it’s very effective–
CHUCK TODD:
But Jeb stood up to him. It was a different Jeb. That wasn’t the Jeb of three months ago who melted in that moment. HALLIE JACKSON:
Right, his mom is out here telling him that he needs to interrupt a little more and be a little bit less polite. And that’s what you’re seeing. For Trump though, he doesn’t like to be booed. He got booed four times within about two minutes during that exchange. And I asked him, “Do you think you came off as a bully?” And he even said last night in the spin room, “Well, Bush tries to be tough, but he’s not a tough guy.”
HUGH HEWITT:
ut Governor Bush had his best night. And I want to put the Republican spin on this because it’s true. It has the additional advantage of being true. Republicans hate eminent domain. They hate it. It’s abused in the west. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
I think it’s a real question about bullying–
CHUCK TODD:
All right, last comment.
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
–and there’s no doubt that was a bullying moment. Everybody saw a bully there. You have to decide, and is the bully on your side? And if the bully’s on your side, if he’s in a foxhole next to you facing the bad guys, you don’t mind it. I thought last night it didn’t look that way. He was taking down a guy who’s not a scary guy. Nobody dislikes Jeb Bush. I thought he didn’t look good. CHUCK TODD:
All right. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
It wasn’t good for Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I’m going to have a little bit. I actually spoke with Jeb earlier. We’ll have some Jeb stuff later in the show. We’ll be back right after the break with the man who probably needs a New Hampshire win more than anybody else. My sit-down with Donald Trump.
***COMMERCIAL BREAK*
CHUCK TODD
Welcome back. Well it’s quite a debate last night. As Ron Burgundy might have said, that escalated quickly. My next guest Donald Trump, he wants to rebound from the Iowa loss and take New Hampshire to hang on to his frontrunner status. Mr. Trump joins me now. Welcome back to Meet the Press, sir. DONALD TRUMP:
Was coming in second, and maybe first, a loss? CHUCK TODD
You tell me. Let me ask you this — how much do you need in a New Hampshire win?
DONALD TRUMP
I don’t think I need it. I hope that I get it. I’m doing well. I have a great relationship with the people of New Hampshire. I’ve been here long before politics. I have many friends that live up here. It’s an incredible area, beautiful area. I would say that I would like to win, but I don’t know that if this is necessary. When you say, you know, the Iowa, I came in second out of, you know, originally 17 people. There are those that actually came in first, depending on how you want to count the votes. To be honest, because that was a horrible thing that took place. But I was very proud of Iowa, and I’ve never done it before. CHUCK TODD
So you don’t accept Do you not accept the Iowa results?
DONALD TRUMP
I think what happened –
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think they’re illegitimate? DONALD TRUMP:
Unfortunately, I think was very unfair to Ben, and in a certain way was unfair to me. It affected me the same way that it affected Ben because a lot of votes were added on — I mean, a tremendous number of votes were added on. I was a strong second. But I’m not thinking about Iowa, I’m thinking about New Hampshire. I don’t care about it anymore.
CHUCK TODD
I can’t help but notice, that you are a little humble, a little humbled by what happened in Iowa. Is that fair to say? DONALD TRUMP
Well, I don’t think in terms of it. You know, I worked hard there. I really liked Iowa. I liked the people of Iowa. The caucus system is a very complex system, and a lot of things can go off with a caucus system. I like the system much better in New Hampshire, where you go out, you like somebody, you vote. And you can have a ground game and all, but the ground game in Iowa is very important whereas the ground game here is different. CHUCK TODD
Are you looking in your campaign saying, “you know what, maybe I need to do some more traditional things in addition to the nontraditional stuff that’s been successful?”
DONALD TRUMP
That is true. And I think that you’ll see it here. Very important was that we get through the debate because I didn’t want to have a bad debate or even a modest debate and I think we did very well on the debate according to all.
CHUCK TODD
‘Cause you know some of your Iowa staff have said, “boy, we could’ve used a lot more resources here. We could use a lot more there.” Are they right? DONALD TRUMP
No, they are totally wrong. I gave them unlimited money. I said, “do what you have to do.” I gave them unlimited money. Hey look, I’m 50 million dollars under budget. I thought by this time I’d have 40 to 50 million dollars spent and I’ve spent very little because I haven’t had to, because people like you put me out all the time, what do we take commercial for? CHUCK TODD
Here you go.
DONALD TRUMP
But I really thought that I’d be up to 45 or 50 million dollars and, you know, I’m not. I looked at somebody like Jeb Bush who has spent 100 million dollars and he’s nowhere and I say, “Can’t let that happen.”
CHUCK TODD
Let’s talk about last night’s debate, I want to play something you said that raise a lot of eyebrows. It was about waterboarding. Here it is:
(BEGIN TAPE)
I would bring back waterboarding and I’d bring back a hell of alot worse than waterboarding.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD
Okay. What’s the worse? DONALD TRUMP
Well you didn’t see what I said before that. What I said before that was in the Middle East you have people chopping off other people’s heads. This hasn’t happened since Medieval times. There’s never been anything like this. And I talked about that. And then I said, “And by the way, waterboarding is peanuts compared to what we’re talking about happening there.” So I said, “I would absolutely approve waterboarding and I’d go a lot further than waterboarding.”
CHUCK TODD
What does that mean? What is a lot further? I mean–
DONALD TRUMP
I’m not going to define it to you on this program. But I would be very much in favor of going beyond waterboarding. And believe me, in terms of getting information, it works. CHUCK TODD
Don’t you worry though, that look — we’re the United States. We set an example. We’re supposed to be better than that. We’re supposed to be — as much as — look, look at the Medieval, we don’t do those things.
DONALD TRUMP
Medieval times. CHUCK TODDWe don’t want to be barbaric. They want to be barbaric. We’re not barbaric. DONALD TRUMP
OK. They can do it, but we can’t. Look, when they fly planes into the World Trade Center, kill thousands of people and many many other things, you see what’s happening all over the world — whether it’s Paris or here or anywhere else — you can do waterboarding and you can go a step beyond waterboarding. It wouldn’t bother me even a little bit.
CHUCK TODD
Uh, another part of the debate had to do with health care. Look, you’ve been hit on this. It is unclear to me, though. You want more government — you want some sort of government system on health care? DONALD TRUMP
Yeah. CHUCK TODD
You don’t like the system that’s in there now. That I understand, but describe the —
DONALD TRUMP
Not single-payer.
CHUCK TODD
Describe the system that you want. DONALD TRUMP
OK. Let me speak. CHUCK TODD
OK.
DONALD TRUMP
First of all, what I do, I have a massive company. I have thousands and thousands of employees and I have in many different states. You have artificial lines around each state. You know why? Because the insurance company takes care of the politicians, so they don’t want to get rid of the lines. If you got rid of those lines, you would have great private insurance, and it would take care of most people. It’d be an unbelievable thing. In addition to that, you could have a savings, you know, you could do the savings — uh — situation where you would have health care savings accounts and it would be fantastic. There’s so many things you could do. The problem is the insurance companies don’t want to do these things and they don’t want to specifically get rid of the lines because they’d rather have a monopoly, in New York is an example, than let 50 companies come in and bid. Companies from Iowa. Companies from New Hampshire–
CHUCK TODD
But you’re going to have to structure a government program to deal with this. DONALD TRUMP
No. No. No. Here’s– here’s– no. Here’s what you do. So you’re going to have a great system, but there will be people left that don’t have any money and what I said last night is that I don’t want people dying in the middle of a street. It’s not going to happen if I’m president, okay? This isn’t single-payer. This is using our hospitals to take care of people, you work them out, you reimburse the hospital because we will get–
CHUCK TODD
You’d expand Medicaid?
DONALD TRUMP
You can do it through Medicaid. You can do it through some other way, but I’m just saying very simply and this has nothing to do with single– this has to do with humanity.This has to do with having a heart. We can have unbelievable insurance at a much lower cost. You know, I don’t know if you know– Obamacare is going up 35, 45, 55 percent. The premiums are through the roof. In ’17, it collapses. You’re going to have people, you’re going to have great plans. You’re going to have people that aren’t even able to afford 10 cents. We cannot let them die in the streets, Chuck, and we’re going to take care of them. Now, we’ll take care whether it’s Medicaid or you’re going to work out some kind of a deal with hospitals to take care of these people. But if I’m president, people are not going to be dying in the streets. CHUCK TODD
Let me go, there was a tough piece in The Washington Post implying that your campaign and that you individually are tougher on women correspondents, women anchors, women reporters than men, uh–
DONALD TRUMP
Really? I haven’t seem them. CHUCK TODDIt was Paul Farhi in the Post. “Trump’s penchant for insulting people and organizations that displease him is well known. Less remarked upon, however, has been the special comments that Trump pours out for the women who chronicle his campaign.” Uh– there’s a perception there.
DONALD TRUMP
I think I’ve been tougher on you than any other human being on earth in terms of reporter. CHUCK TODD
So, I think my wife believes that too. DONALD TRUMP
OK. Oh, I-I–
CHUCK TODDBut in all fairness–
DONALD TRUMP
I’m tougher on you than anybody.
CHUCK TODD
I’ve heard these whispers before. There’s a perception out there. How do you get rid of the perception? Perhaps it’s a Megyn Kelly situation. DONALD TRUMP
Hey, look, she gave me a really phony question. It was a set-up question. It wasn’t even a question it was a statement. It was inappropriate, and I hit her hard, and I think that’s fine. But if you gave me that question, I’d hit you the same way. I mean, you are the perfect one to ask that question– you have been, you know, under fire from me for a long time and you are far from a woman. CHUCK TODDWell–
DONALD TRUMP
That I can tell you.
CHUCK TODD
Well, that is a fact. Look–
DONALD TRUMP
You know–
CHUCK TODD
We all have to fix–
DONALD TRUMP
I never even heard this. I haven’t seen the report. CHUCK TODD
You haven’t seen it? DONALD TRUMP
I haven’t seen it. I get so much publicity, I don’t get to read everything unfortunately, but uh this was in The Washington Post?
CHUCK TODD
It was in The Washington Post a couple of days ago. DONALD TRUMP
It’s totally– look, I think there are some women– there’s one sitting right over there in the beautiful red dress. You see that woman over there? I have great respect for that woman over there. CHUCK TODDWell, she’s–
DONALD TRUMP
I have great respect for that woman. And I don’t know that she knows I’m talking about her. I’m talking about you. I would never do that to you.
CHUCK TODD
All right, I believe he is referring to Andrea Mitchell. DONALD TRUMP
I am referring to Andrea. CHUCK TODD
I want to ask about one final thing here. I know we’re running out of time, in 1999 when you talked about running for president you hinted that it may be easier to pledge being a one-term president ’cause you take the politics out of the second term. Do you still feel that way?
DONALD TRUMP
Well, I think there are certain advantages but if you’re doing a great job– I’ve seen people do that and then want to go further and do more and good people and they never win because people say they said one term and it’s a real negative. So I don’t want to say that, but there are certain advantages to it, but if we’re doing great and the people like me, if I was lucky enough to win– you know, my whole theme is make America great again. We’re going to make America great again. We’re going to make our military stronger. We’re going to take care of our vets. We’re going to have strong borders, we will have the wall. You know, so many different things. Health care, we’re going to take of. We’re going to get rid of Obamacare. We’re going to have great plans for much less money. We’re going to make America great again. I will tell you, if we’re doing a great job, we’ll keep going and if we’re not, you know we have automatic termination. It’s called the voters will terminate.
CHUCK TODDRight. DONALD TRUMP
But that won’t happen. CHUCK TODD
So you’re not doing a one-term pledge?
DONALD TRUMP
No, I’m not going to do a one-term pledge. No. CHUCK TODD
All right. DONALD TRUMP
If I’m doing a good job, I’ll keep going.
CHUCK TODDDonald Trump, I have to leave it there. DONALD TRUMP
OK. Thank you. CHUCK TODDWe’ll see you in South Carolina.
DONALD TRUMPThank you very much. CHUCK TODDWhen we come back, what do the Iowa results tell us about what may happen in New Hampshire? Well, it’s a lot, but it may be not what you think.
(BEGIN TAPE)
BILL CLINTON
I think we know enough with some certainty that New Hampshire tonight has made Bill Clinton the comeback kid.
(END TAPE)
***COMMERCIAL BREAK***
CHUCK TODD:
A lot of us have been studying what past results in Iowa mean for the New Hampshire primary. And it turns out each of the three leading Republican candidates out of Iowa have history on their side, it just depends on which history you choose. So if you’re Ted Cruz you want to be John Kerry in 2004, that year Kerry trailed Howard Dean everywhere, including in the New Hampshire polls. Well then came the caucuses in Iowa, Kerry won, Dean finished third, followed by the Dean scream a Kerry surge. Kerry wound up winning big in New Hampshire, Dean was soon out of the race. This is what you want if you’re Ted Cruz, turn your big Iowa win into New Hampshire gold.
Up next, the Marco Rubio as Gary Hart scenario. In ’84, Hart trailed Walter Mondale badly in New Hampshire in Democratic polling there. But Gary Hart, despite getting crushed in Iowa, still exceeded “expectations,” and he became the big national storyline. Sound familiar, Senator Rubio? Well it worked, Hart went on to a big victory in New Hampshire the following week and he became the chief competitor to Mondale for the rest of the season. That’s what Rubio hopes to be. And finally, we have Donald Trump. He wants to be the George H.W. Bush in history. Look at the 1988 Republican race, Bush was ahead in New Hampshire polls, he was up over Bob Dole by ten points. But like Trump on Monday, Bush had a disappointing showing in Iowa, he actually finished third to Dole. There was a lot of Bush campaign hand wringing with Bush slipping in the polls. But what happened in New Hampshire, he hung on in the end quite nicely, he won New Hampshire, in route to winning the entire Republican nomination and of course, the presidency itself. So three frontrunners each have some version of history on their side, but which version will play out Tuesday night? Who knows at this point, I smell a jumble coming. Anyway coming up, with Larry David hosting and Bernie Sanders running, how could Saturday Night Live resist? They didn’t.
(BEGIN TAPE)
Bernie Sanders:
Enough is enough, we need to unite and work together if we’re all going to get through this. Larry David:
Sounds like socialism to me.
(END TAPE)***COMMERCIAL BREAK***
CHUCK TODD
Welcome back, let’s bring back the panel. We’re going to talk about the democratic race and to set it up let’s put a little composition together of the really harsh attacks that they’ve been exchanging.
(BEGIN TAPE)
BERNIE SANDERS
What being part of the establishment is in the last quarter having a super PAC that raise £15 million from wall street. HILLARY CLINTON
I think it’s time to end the very artful smear that you and your campaign have been carrying out.
BERNIE SANDERS
I have been criticized for saying that i believe that all of our people are entitled to health care. yes i plead guilty. HILLARY CLINTON
If you look at a lot of what Senator Sanders is proposing the numbers just don’t add up. BERNIE SANDERS
What leadership is about is not just swimming with the current.
HILLARY CLINTON
This is a an effort by the Sanders campaign to basically say anybody who’s taken a donation, not just from Wall Street, if you take it the natural conclusion from anybody is bought and paid for.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD
I want to start this conversation on a larger topic Chris, that you and I were talking about off camera yesterday.. And what’s fascinating about this democratic race it is the first one in my lifetime that’s been a race to the left. We haven’t seen that in a long time. It used to be democratic presidential primary was about the most electable liberal who could hug the middle. And that’s still a campaign clinton wanted to run but that’s not what she has to now. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
And it’s very hard for her to fight him because of this elastic use of the term progressive. Progressive covered Teddy Roosevelt a moderate activist republican. It covered in Wisconsin. Then in ’48 it carried, it kind of takes a very hard left even pro Soviet Henry Wallace breaking in with Truman on that saying the Cold War was our fault. I don’t think he means that, but he can come out and get the furthest left voter, just like Cruz can get the furthest right voter and hug that rail. Now Hillary will surprise me as to why she wants to go chasing after him. Why doesn’t she draw the line, why didn’t she do it three months ago. I’m not a socialist, I don’t hate socialist but i’m not one. Here’s why, fundamentally I do believe in the free market free enterprise. That’s how our systems work, that’s how we became the greatest country in the world because of that freedom. I don’t want want the government to try to run everything.
CHUCK TODD:
But Andrea the party’s moved? ANDREA MITCHELL:
The party has moved. This reminds me of 1972 actually. She has lost the base. And she’s lost the women. And that is what is so stunning here in New Hampshire. And they are really, they can’t figure out how to combat that. So to try to attract young women whom she lost by such extraordinary numbers in Iowa and in the polling so far here, she brings in women senators, who by definition are part of the establishment, and there’s no female Marco Rubio. You have to be an older woman to become a senator, because the deck is so stacked against you. That’s just the reality. You’ve got women senators, you’ve got Madeleine Albright, who you know, you validate her foreign policy credentials and criticize his. But these people and the frustrations of Madeleine Albright and of Hillary Clinton is why don’t these young women realize what we went through and how we haven’t won the battle yet and how all of this can be taken back, and why aren’t they reacting to 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling?
CHUCK TODD:
Hallie you haven’t seen it on the trail, have you? HALLIE JACKSON:
No and what’s interesting to me, though, when you talk about Bernie Sanders that he has among a different kind of electorate. I spoke with a woman yesterday she’s been a registered Republican in New Hampshire for 15 years. She is going to primary for Jeb Bush and then switch her registration so she can vote for Bernie Sanders. She is out there working and volunteering and trying to sort of rally people around Sanders because of what he’s tapping into that speaks to something a little more broad than just the typical party lines. CHUCK TODD:
But Hugh, both parties are racing to their bases. Nobody’s thinking about the general election.
HUGH HEWITT:
I love what Andrea just said. They’re going 1972 I’m all for that from my perspective, way to go. CHUCK TODD:
But Hugh the Republicans are going ’64
HUGH HEWITT:
Well we have an ability to come back a lot more quickly. I must say I was stunned by your interview with Senator Sanders. I think it makes him not viable as a candidate to be that hard left on foreign policy. I did note that Donald Trump finished the debate by bringing up Mrs. Clinton’s server last night. And so you have a terribly unelectable candidate who wants to go full Sweden and you have a candidate who has flaws both in her record and on her honesty issue. So keep going to ’72, time back. CHUCK TODD:
Well I have to say everybody is going to get brutalized, the two nominees are going to be pretty battered and bruised are they not.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
There was a young woman just yesterday in Concord who came at Hillary Clinton saying I worked for you in 2008 but I’m troubled by Benghazi I’m troubled by the server. She is getting blowback from the very people she needs to bring back. CHUCK TODD:
I’m going to take a quick pause here, we’ll be back with our endgame segment. And I want to show you something Jeb Bush told me this morning about last night’s debate.
***COMMERCIAL BREAK***
(BEGIN TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
What did you make of Senator Rubio last night? JEB BUSH:
Um, this scripted – message discipline is important. And I envy candidates who can repeat the same thing over and over again. My brother was good at that. But, to be so scripted that you don’t have the agility to show the leadership skills you need to be president of the United States, I think is a – became clear last night.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Yes. Jeb Bush comparing Marco Rubio to his brother, I guess. Reflecting on last night’s debate a little earlier. I’m going to have a full length interview on that you’ll see tomorrow morning we have special coverage on MSNBC as everybody knows tomorrow. Panel is here, and end game time. Wow. Hugh? You know, Jeb is right, I mean message discipline. HUGH HEWITT:
I believe in open convention. I’ve always believed in open convention. I hope I get the good end of South Carolina because W is coming out to fight for his brother, Marco Rubio has got to get off of the floor because of this perceived loss last night, and it will be a fantastic race. CHUCK TODD:
Let me paint a scenario, Trump at 28 percent Tuesday night, let’s say 28 or 29, and then all of a sudden Kasich, Bush, Rubio, Cruz, 17 16 15 14 – nobody gets out. Why does anybody get out under that scenario, Chris?
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Big difference between here and Iowa is in Iowa passion drives you to go to the caucuses , get involved. Here you vote as a civic duty. Everybody votes in New Hampshire in the primaries. People are going to go out and vote, and when they see Rubio have a problem the other night they’re going to somebody else and it’s going to be Kasich. It’s because he sits there as an option. I think Kasich is going to do incredibly well because of civic duty. They’re not all passionaries over here, they’re regular voters. CHUCK TODD:
I thought he had his best – by the way, Kasich had his best debate that he’s ever had and he’s not been great at these debates. HALLIE JACKSON:
There are questions about his organizations and where he moves on from here, and his campaign feels they can do something in South Carolina. Not the whole state but they can go along the coast, Michigan. I mean, that’s a long time away.
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
He comes in second… CHUCK TODD:
Andrea, South Carolina is going to be – we thought this was – South Carolina is going to make 2000 look like patty cake, but I think –
ANDREA MITCHELL:
First of all, you’ve got Bernie Sanders now trying to compete for the African American vote, and he’s beginning to develop organization. He’s got the Ben Jealous endorsement. But you’ve got the veterans there, the military –
CHUCK TODD:
On the Republican side this has got to be about… ANDREA MITCHELL:
On the republican side, Donald Trump is playing to the veterans to the military. I’m not sure Kasich can do that.
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
I see a Trump Kasich ticket is what I see. CHUCK TODD:
I want to bring up a point here that has gotten lost that may feed into a perception that we don’t cover these things the same. The Iowa results. Three of the top four candidates on the republican side were two Hispanics, and an African American. A historic night for the republican party. HUGH HEWITT:
They’re generating a party that is old white men, is important. Another thing that got missed a little bit last night, Mary Katharine Ham who lost her husband last August and delivered their second child in November, did a terrific job last night. And I just want to take my hat off to her. She’s inspiring.
CHUCK TODD:
Absolutely. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
It was a good debate. CHUCK TODD:
It was a good debate. Look, let’s leave here on a little lighter note. If you were watching Saturday Night Live last night you would be excused for being a little bit confused, as we were, to why there were two Bernie Sanders on stage. After talking to me yesterday, Senator Sanders was live in studio 1H with Larry David on a Titanic-like boat. Here’s a clip.
(BEGIN TAPE)
BERNIE SANDERS:
I am so sick of this one percent getting this preferential treatment. Enough is enough! We need to unite and work together. If we’re all going to get through this. LARRY DAVID:
Sounds like socialism to me! BERNIE SANDERS:
Democratic socialism.
LARRY DAVID:
What’s the difference? BERNIE SANDERS:
Huge difference. LARRY DAVID:
Huge?
BERNIE SANDERS:
“Yuge”
CHUCK TODD:
There was one more punch line there, Andrea. He talked about– they land on Ellis Island, and it’s, he says, you know, “My name is Bernie Sanderswitsky.” And he says, “Yeah, but we’ll drop the witsky, it sounds like Jewish.”
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And first of all, it’s funny, we can laugh about that. But the other thing that could be history-making, and they’re talking about it, he’s the first Jewish–
CHUCK TODD:
But no, more importantly, he’s going to be the first Jewish candidate on the Democrat side to win delegates here in New Hampshire. It’s going to happen. And there’s been history all over the place, first, first, first. And I’ve been surprised at how little coverage there’s been. But anyway, we did it here right here on Meet the Press. CHRIS MATTHEWS:
You know, one year that people started to talk like this or think like this–
CHUCK TODD:
I know, I know, I know. Well–
CHRIS MATTHEWS:
Our kids don’t get it. HALLIE JACKSON:
I don’t know about that, Chris.
CHUCK TODD:
That’s it for today. We’ll be back next week. Because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
***END OF TRANSCRIPT***