rolling old talk into archive
New page
These are comments about the front page or the wiki in general made during 2011.
For recent comments, see [[Talk:/v/'s Recommended Games Wiki]]
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==Mozai's Interesting MMO Format==
I've noticed Mozai's interesing MMO edits and HOLY SHIT. I'm impressed on how neat the MMO page looks now. I'm considering using that same format with the rest of the pages instead of just using a table that looks fucked up and condensed. Your opinions? [[User:Haipayazoo|Haipayazoo]] 02:23, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
Also nice job on the new format, Mozai.
If you're talking about changing every single other page to be like that, then NO. I think it works well on pages with minimal entries, but the thing about the tables is that the entries can be sorted by title and genre, which is to the advantage of those searching for a quick entry based on genre. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 23:27, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
You're proabably right, but I feel there should a better solution then just leaving them in table format, but I guess it makes it convenient for others to search for specific games. [[User:Haipayazoo|Haipayazoo]] 02:23, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
P.S. Forgot to put my sig. Haven't been on in a while.
No please, the tables are much better and let you sort things in different orders. Don't fuck them up. It's fine for the MMO list, but not for console games. My opinion, anyway. [[User:Rapi2|Rapi2]] 04:16, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
It works for the MMO page because the MMO games have very little criteria - name, payment method, alive/dead. When each item has more than two criteria (genre, platform, metacritic rating, ...) it's better to use a sortable table. The best solution would be finding a sortable-table format that can live with the new "look" of wikia. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 15:05, February 8, 2011 (UTC)
:Also, if the list of items on the page gets too long, you'll need to put a <nowiki>__NOTOC__</nowiki> on the page to kill the footlong table of contents. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]]
== Frontpage needs a face-lift ==
Anyone agrees that the frontpage needs to be seriously redesigned? Right now it's a complete clusterfuck, partially because of wikia's redesign I figure.
I've been working on a new frontpage here: [[Frontpage_test]], currently work in progress as I type this. Please drop by the talk page for any suggestions or critiques.
Sorry if I seem to come out of the blue and demand to change shit around, but I've been following this wiki for quite a while but only now decided to join. I made the sega saturn recommended games image, so I'm not a complete stranger to these parts. [[User:Jkyn|Jkyn]] 15:44, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
I'll take a crack at [[User:Mozai/FrontPage|reorganizing the frontpage]]. The '1st gen / 2nd gen' design is getting too bulky (even when using the not-suck old skin for Wikia), and there's no way to fit in other gaming platforms like handhelds and home computers. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 15:24, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
: I got the [[User_talk:Mozai#Hmmm_Well|thumbs-up]] from Kejiko. Please be enjoying page of new front. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 16:15, May 27, 2011 (UTC)
== Some cleanup? ==
Maybe I'm just being OCD but the site is kinda messy.<br />
*Front page needs to be reorginized. Especially in terms of the special pages. Maybe top row 8th/7th/6th/Computer/Other, middle row 5th-1st, and bottom row focused on special pages.
*Some pages just need to be deleted. I submitted a few for deletion like the Michael Jackson page since it had pretty much no content, but other ones like the Tingle page seems a little pointless since it's basically listing Zelda games found elsewhere in the wiki, but I don't want to delete that much content on my opinion alone.
*Other pages such as the FFCC: Echoes of Time and FFIV: After Years one are good and all, but I don't think they really fit this websites agenda. Reccomended Games Wiki, not Walkthrough wiki. But hey if others feel this site should be open to stuff like that then so be it I guess.
*Too many different layouts. I think we should stick with one. And preferable the Box Art/Title/Genre/Decription/Screenshot layout since it gives the most info. With the extra "platform" collumn for the special games sections. The color coded titles based off of reception should be enforced too. I think. Green being 100-86, yellow 85-70, and red for everything under. On the other hand though maybe it would be best to eliminate it completely because it can cause people to form opinions of the games based off that alone. I dunno.
*Descriptions sould just be a brief gameplay description, pros and cons. Like for Portal 2: "Solve puzzles with a portal gun. Wonderful story, fun gameplay and voice acting but considered too short for some." (I know that's an incomplete description but just an example.) Addition info would be welcomed to like the link for the solar patches for Boktai games in the GBA section.
If you can think of anything else post it. I'm trying to work on much of this as I can when I have the spare time.
[[User:Thedvillain|Thedvillain]] 04:28, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
:'''On layouts''': certain ones are warranted, others aren't too necessary and would only bloat the page. People can visualize most games on the 7th/8th generation list due to media exposure. PS3 is a good example: PS3 box art, PSN screenshots - just the essentials. I'm not opposed to it, however. mite b cool
:'''Metascore''': yeah it's shitty. Gamerankings has way more coverage, but not complete (no imports, no really old shit, no arcades). Should be abolished altogether.
:'''On descriptions''': I quite like the informed overview and opinions. It shows confidence in recommendations and gives me an idea of what the game is about. If every description were "you're a space marine, shoot shit, better than Marine Guy 1" this wouldn't be a very interesting site and I'd find myself trawling the web more often. - [[User:Kierke|Kierke]] 03:48, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
:
:'''On layouts''': True. Maybe it's a little much to have both then. Just Box Art or Screenshot. Do you people like it more on the left or right? On the left it matches because it's right next to the title but at the same it's a little redundant. Text first or image first I guess is the debate.
:'''Metascore''': Alright yeah.
:'''On descriptions''': Oh no no I don't mean that bland. But just when there's that wall of text.
:[[User:Thedvillain|Thedvillain]] 04:28, May 14, 2011 (UTC
:
:Fixed the front page. The tables make it look weird and unaligned but if I don't put them in shit goes haywire. Good? Yes/No And if I fucked something up we can always undo it.
:
:Btw: I tried adding the weapons list thing under other but it kept popping up as a broken link.
:[[User:Thedvillain|Thedvillain]] 06:46, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
Hell no I ain't deleting those FAQ/Help pages. I put too much work into those and others are encouraged to do their own as well. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 07:15, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll squeeze in some room for them somewhere. Maybe give them a hub page or something. I dunno.
[[User:Thedvillain|Thedvillain]] 07:40, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
Seems like a good idear. A little table or something might be nice. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 07:43, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
How about [[User:Mozai/FrontPage|re-laying out the front page altogether]]? --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 17:57, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
Personally speaking, I'd like to see a fusion of Mozai and Jykn's tables (Mozai's layout with Jykn's imagery). --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 21:23, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
:I'd gladly incorporate it... if you could show me where <strike>Jykn's stuff is.</strike> D'oh, you meant to say [[User:Jkyn|Jkyn]] --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 00:01, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
:Okay, updated my go at [[User:Mozai/FrontPage|a new '''front page''']]. Is there an Editor-in-Chief to run this by? And we need new 32px icons for the list items that don't currently have icons. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 01:52, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
== Just a small idea to get less lost in the front page ==
I personally experienced getting lost in that endless console list so I'd like to display every platform of the seventh and eighth gen in bold letters for easier navigation since those are arguably the most important to date. That is all. --[[User:Turbobutts|Turbobutts]]
:I dropped the 'generations' categories because it's subjective and arguments break out. Manufacture dates are objective, and can be verified... although they can be confusing too, since some consoles live very long, and others were only made for a year. I made a draft of the front page with [[User:Mozai/FrontPage|a sortable table]] for the console list; would this be better? --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 15:33, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
The sort-ability factor wouldn't take much trouble to import would it?
That said, if you don't mind, I'd like to move Upcoming Games up at the top with "what we're playing" and that other good stuff when you're done with the fixin's. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 23:38, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
==Links' Section==
I think that we should either add a ''Useful Links'' section in every console page, or dedicate a whole new page to these. Release lists, cover databases, homebrew guides, <s>piracy guides</s>, trackers and other useful things, you get the drill.
[[User:BlackVega|BlackVega]] 08:13, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
*Mite b cool - [[User:MFGreth1|MFGreth1]] 12:15, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
I had thought of making a full links page, but a section in each page also has merits. If anything, we could do a section in pages, and copy+paste them in a main "links" page.
In other news, Sega-16 is back! Hooray!
:Links in-page is better; someone who is looking for Atari 2600 games doesn't need to know all the Colecovision websites there are. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 11:59, July 12, 2011 (UTC)
== Massive cleanup: Halloween Games ==
The Halloween games page has been, more or less, been untouched since 2009. I believe it's time to start messing with it again, for when it gets spammed on /v/ later this year. We need to remove games, add games, clean up the page... what do you guys think? - [[User:MFGreth1|MFGreth1]] 12:54, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
This is good idea.
Especially since some new horror/horror-esque games have come out since then.
== Multiplayer Recommendations ==
Well, it's been "about a week". Should I leave the "MPRs" on the tl;dr bar or not? --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 13:27, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
== Current / Last / Next Generation ==
Nintendo DS is current and 3DS is next generation, lrn to generations. [[Special:Contributions/83.1.81.242|83.1.81.242]]
:The 'current' generation is what is 'currently' here. The 'next' generation is the 'next' one to arrive. Once the 'next' generation arrives, it becomes 'current', because it is 'currently' here. Will the 3DS still be the 'next' generation when it's successor arrives? No.
:I know there is confusion with naming game hardware by which "generation" it belongs to, and arguments break out over whether something is or was N-th generation, and where do generations start or end. i.e.: When a manufacturer makes their first console, is it their 1st gen, or do you insert it alongside the Nth-gen of the current models of their competitors, and what if competitors have multiple generations currently being manufactured? Does the new console belong to the Nth, or the N+1th generation?
:Easier to just use 'current' and 'previous', for each manufacturer and each of the following formats: handheld game-purpose device, appliance-sized game-purpose device "console", handheld general-purpose computer "smartphone", desktop general-purpose computer. A notable exception is: if a company stops manufacturing a device, but does not have a successor device in the same format, it will be the 'previous' generation despite no 'current' generation to replace it. This is why the WonderSwan is marked as 'previous generation.' --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 20:24, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
3DS is first console of new generation. Next generation is 3DS, PSV, Wii U DS is not previous gen, it's current. lrn to generations --[[Special:Contributions/83.1.81.242|83.1.81.242]]
:Are you a bot or something? I already answered you. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 20:20, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
:*'''Next Generation''' - the "next" to arrive, so they aren't here yet.
:*'''Current Generation''' - the models "current"-ly being sold.
:*'''Last Generation''' - the models for each manufacturer+format that were the latest ("last"-est) to be sold before the most recent for each manufacturer+format generation.
Hey, but I remember that generations used to be labelled "Fifth Generation", "Fourth Generation" and so on. Why can't we return to that style? [[Special:Contributions/213.192.64.78|213.192.64.78]] 18:33, September 10, 2011 (UTC)
:Because arguments will break out at to whether something is Thirteenth Generation, or actually Fourteenth Generation, especially as handheld devices start to duplicate the power of consoles (ie.: if you can run SNES games on a Gameboy Advance, does that mean the GBA is actually Fourth Generation, or is it Sixth Generation because it was sold at the same time as the Nintendo Gamecube?)
:There is no objective way to determine whether a product belongs in any "generation" besides manufacture date, or the sequence of models produced by a manufacturer, but that has problems of it's own when a new manufacturer enters the field: is their first model the same generation as their competitor's current models, even if it is significantly more/less powerful?
:Furthermore, the "Nth Generation" paradigm will go out the window as soon as some marketing blob decides they can sell more units by calling something "Second Generation" again. Also, there's no objective measure of which "generation" a new manufacturer's first model should enter at (same as it's competitors's current models? what if the new model is significantly superiour/inferiour to similar models currently sold?). Examples of marketing bullshit:
:* 80386 -> 80486 -> 80586/Pentium -> Pentium II -> Pentium III -> Pentium M -> Celeron -> Pentium 4 -> ???
:* Windows 3 -> Windows 3.1 -> Windows 3.11 -> Windows NT -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98 -> Windows XP -> Windows Vista -> Windows 7
:* Try figuring out what the lineage or "generations" of video cards are. I got as far as GeForce4 MX 420 -> GeForce2 GTS -> GeForce4 MX 440 -> GeForce3 TI200 -> GeForce4 MX460 and that's just generations of one manufacturer; sense this makes none.
:So instead, "generation" is being used on the front page as per the dictionary definition: "all the people living at the same time or of approximately the same age." We transpose "living" to "what is being manufactured and sold right now," and we have objective criteria that won't be fucked with the next time marketing experts want to get a raise. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 20:37, September 10, 2011 (UTC)
:Also, having 12+ generation groupings on the page makes for damn messy layout, and sortable tables make it easier to find things.
== Extremely difficult games ==
Does anyone else think this would be a good idea for a page? It would probably include stuff like Jet Set Willy, Nethack, QWOP, I Wanna Be the Guy, Battletoads etc.. [[User:AlcoholicMOM|AlcoholicMOM]] 05:33, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
Mitebcool. If Japan can classify them ("Masoge", masochist's game), I'm sure we can. Is Masochist Games a better title or just Extremely Difficult Games? Up to you.
I think the key issue is trying to keep a balance between games that are difficult but still fun.
My personal entries would be: Demon's Souls, Dai-Senryaku series (Only a few are translated though. Essentially, think Advance Wars, but covered in spikes and crammed up one's ass), Advance Wars: Dual Strike (without Eagle+Sami combo or fucking Colin), Contra: Hard Corps, Mushihime Futari, F-Zero GX (maybe?), Sonic 2 Game Gear (maybe, maybe not), Ghosts n' Goblins series, Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels (maybe?), Doom on Nightmare (maybe), Ninja Gaiden 1 on NES, Ninja Gaiden on Master System (pretty tough after the first few areas), Star Soldier series, Neutopia 1 (turbografx), certain Classic-styled Castlevanias (but also Portait of Ruin and (IIRC) Order of Ecclesia on Hard Mode), and some others I guess. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 06:22, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
:Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels isn't all that hard, though. It's harder than your average Mario game, yes, but I think its status as an "extremely difficult game" is just a myth, coming from Nintendo not wanting to sell it in America due to its difficulty.--[[User:Alex IDV|Alex IDV]] 05:30, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
I think it's more memorization than difficulty, sure, but if you go in fresh and without any help it can be pretty brutal. There's a lot of tricks and carefully considered enemy placements to screw one over, and some of the later levels are just dastardly, especially the one where you have to actually find a vine on a hard to hit block or else the stage loops forever. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 16:54, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
== Mobile Phone Games ==
What about a page for games for mobile phones? And I don't mean iPhones and Androids, I mean older mobiles. -- [[Special:Contributions/213.192.64.78|213.192.64.78]]
:If you can write a useful article about it, go for it. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 20:37, September 10, 2011 (UTC)
== Doujin games? ==
So, doujin games. Most aren't big enough to list in the PC section, technically not free, and not artsy fartsy enough to be grouped with indie games. So I believe it needs its own special section. How about it? --[[User:TheJohns|TheJohns]] 07:51, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
"Most aren't big enough to list in the PC section" isn't necessarily true. It depends on the game. Now, a vast majority of them aren't going to be as huge as say Morrowind, Fallout, Dwarf Fortress, and so forth, but that's not what most of them go for anyways. They are what they are to provide variety, not necessarily compete with "The Big Guys" and the AAA profit-pullers. I think that, for now, it might be best to leave them as is. If we ever find enough that we have a hefty list of them that actually need paying for (I'd say 25+, just to be fair, since there are a lot out there), perhaps we could make a page and link it from the main PC page. However, as is, thanks to the recent split of PC into 3 pages, it's not too bad an idea to just put them there for now. If there is something of an outcry against it, or rather, a potential fear of outcry, then possibly just prep a table/list in a PC talk page. That way, when there is a nice healthy number that can be added, we'll have ample justification to add it. There's a few I've thought of adding myself, but wasn't too sure of doing so or not. I'll be glad to help when the time comes --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 12:19, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
Addendum: The Touhou games and its fangames alone should give you a lot of backing.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Portal/Games
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Other_Games
--[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 12:51, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
== A page for recommended DLC ==
I think we should have a list of must have DLC addons. Maybe we could prevent another Horse Armor purchase. --[[User:AntonImaus|AntonImaus]] 22:10, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
Except that DLC are related to the game itself. Maybe add on the description "Download X DLC for the game too, its worth it" We cant have simply a list of DLC for all games. It would be too chaotic. --[[User:Rubyus|Rubyus]] 04:33, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
* How about an additional cell underneath the game title listing worthwhile addons? --[[Special:Contributions/69.224.41.155|69.224.41.155]] 03:39, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
== DS. Current generation or Last Generation? ==
I think the DS, with a 7 year span and with games STILL coming out, should be put in the Current Generation spot.
It came out in 2004, one year before the Xbox 360, The 3DS just came out. And the gamecube and the GBA were linked together. For all those reasons, the 3DS should be a Next Gen console, the DS a Current one and the GBA a Last generation console.
Until the Wii U, 720 and Ps4 are out, the 3DS and Vita are "Next Generation" handheld. Or if you prefer, a 8th generation console. --[[User:Rubyus|Rubyus]] 04:26, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
If anything, you can put next in quotes. Like "Next" generation. That makes sense and people know it's still current gen to an extent. --[[User:Dejiko|Dejiko]] 04:52, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
:We don't use 'Nth generation' here. I said look to the discussion page because there's already been paragraphs written about the flaws of using these descriptors: TL;DR they are inconsistent, non-objective, and used as a marketing ploy more than a measurement tool.
:Since you used the term "8th generation," I can assume you didn't bother reading.
:Does the 8th (or 5th, or 6th, depending on how you count) become the current generation when all three of those begin manufacture? So the Xbox720 and Wii U are still "next gen" for a almost a year if the PS4 is delayed even more? And why do those three console have to be out to make the handheld devices 'current' if consoles and handhelds use completely different hardware? Using the same "generation" markers for handhelds and consoles never made sense, outside of trying to confuse the shopper into keeping up with the Joneses.
:'''The current devices are what are <u>current</u>ly manufactured and sold.''' Simple, objective, and useful since the "current" list means stuff you can still buy new. The Nintendo 3DS is being manufactured and sold; thus it is "currently" being made and "currently" available for purchase. If Nintendo DS devices are still being made and sold, then I made a mistake moving them to the list of old formats. By this definition, Nintendo will have two "current" handhelds for a while, a fact I'm sure Nintendo is painfully aware of already and will change as soon as they can do it without losing money.
:--[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 05:11, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
::So we are going to move one by one each console to Next, To current to Last everytime? So when the Wii U come in play, the Current will be 360,Ps3, Wii, Wii U, Ds, 3DS, PSP, Vita? It make no sence. Putting the "next" generation of console as a generation thing make more sence and show what console can connect with X or Y. Like the GBA connect to the Gamecube. Do you want to put DS and GBA on the same Last Generation? I think we should not put the 3DS in current for that very reason. You cant deny that there is a 6ish year break with major console releasing and no console releasing. The Current Generation started in 2006 and the "next" generation is beginning now in 2011.And if we use the "manufacturing" rule, then the Ps2 is still a current Generation console with units still being made and sold. --[[User:Rubyus|Rubyus]] 05:24, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
:::Yes, we move them. Yes it makes sense, but your example does not because you're still thinking in terms of "Nth generation." Devices in "next" are "next to be manufactured," not being made yet. Devices in current are "currently" being manufactured and available for purchase. Devices in "last" are no longer being made nor available for purchase other than used. (need a better name that "last"). The alternative is to rejigger the whole page when a new generation comes out, and having to seperate the generations of consoles from the generations of handhelds, and having arguments break out when some salesman decides to skip a generation to make their product look better.
::: If you actually '''''read''''' what I said, you wouldn't ask if I wanted to put DS and GBA in the last generation list; I already admitted that I made a mistake when I moved the DS. Please pay attention.
::: Yeah I was going to say something about the PS2 still being manufactured, but this page is being edited too fast and eats my responses. :P Saying the "next" generation started now in 2011 is confusing, since 2011 already started 11 1/2 months ago and is almost over, so in a couple weeks the "next" generation will be anything made in the "previous" year? This is the sort of confusion I'm trying to prevent.
:::--[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 05:36, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
:::: I dont think that saying "Every console made from 2011 to after the point where there is no console to be foreseen" is really confusing. Because now we have the Xbox 360, PS2, Ps3, Wii, DS, PSP, 3DS in current if we follow those rules. Games and System may still be made, but the future is here. Sure salesman use this system to sell more new console. I just dont want a system where we have to search and investigate if a game will come out for a system, and if the system is not out. The Ps2 is 10 year old and is still being made and NBA 2K12 came out in October for the Ps2. I dont think it should be in Current any more than the DS should be a Last one since its still being made and games are coming out. And if the Wii become a new Ps2, then we will see the Wii in the current section up to the 4DS release? That is confusing. I love this website and just want to clear all those nuances and set rules that do not allow those exception to happen.--[[User:Rubyus|Rubyus]] 05:59, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
I was thinking of maybe putting "8th Generation" "7th Generation" "6th Generation" in place of Next, Current and Last. Any comment on that? --[[User:Rubyus|Rubyus]] 04:58, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
:No. We've already been through this. --[[User:Mozai|Mozai]] 05:11, December 15, 2011 (UTC)