Three candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination met to debate for the third time Saturday night.
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley debated at Saint Anselm College in New Hampshire. The moderators were David Muir and Martha Raddatz of ABC News.
Here is a complete transcript of the debate.
ANNOUNCER: The race is tight, couldn’t be closer, between Hillary and Bernie right here in New Hampshire. And now, in just moments, with so much on the line, they face each other and the country, live from Saint Anselm College in Manchester, New Hampshire, the Democratic debate.
Here again, David Muir and Martha Raddatz.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: And we do say good evening to you from New Hampshire tonight. Over the next two hours, we’re going to have a chance to take a measure of the candidates vying to be the Democratic nominee for president.
It, of course, is the most important thing we do as a democracy: Choosing a president, the individual who will lead us through peace and prosperity, through war and conflict.
RADDATZ: They have all answered many questions in the past few months, but much has changed in the world since they last debated five weeks ago. And this is the last debate of the year. In less than two months, voters in this state will go to the polls.
MUIR: So please welcome the candidates for the Democratic nomination for president, Secretary Hillary Clinton…
(APPLAUSE)
RADDATZ: Governor Martin O’Malley…
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: … and Senator Bernie Sanders.
(APPLAUSE)
RADDATZ: And good evening to you all. The rules for tonight are very basic and have been agreed to by all three campaigns in advance. Candidates can take up to a minute-and-a-half to respond directly to a question. For a rebuttal, for a follow-up, 45 seconds will be allowed. There are green, yellow, and red lights that each candidate will see to signal when time is running out and when they’re supposed to be finished with their answers.
MUIR: We will be tackling many critical issues right here tonight, and we begin with opening statements, in alphabetical order, and Secretary Clinton.
CLINTON: Well, thank you. And I’m delighted to be here in New Hampshire for this debate.
You know, the American president has to both keep our families safe and make the economy grow in a way that helps everyone, not just those at the top. That’s the job. I have a strategy to combat and defeat ISIS without getting us involved in another ground war, and I have plans to raise incomes and deal with a lot of the problems that keep families up at night.
I’m very clear that we have a distinct difference between those of us on this stage tonight and all of our Republican counterparts. From my perspective, we have to prevent the Republicans from rolling back the progress that we’ve made. They would repeal the Affordable Care Act, not improve it. They would give more tax breaks to the super-wealthy and corporations, not to the middle class. And they would, despite all their tough talk about terrorism, continue to let people who are on the no-fly list buy guns.
So we have a lot of work to do in this campaign to make it clear where we stand in the Democratic Party, what we will do for our country, and I look forward to this evening’s discussion of real issues that face the American people.
Thank you.
RADDATZ: Thank you, Secretary Clinton.
(APPLAUSE)
Governor O’Malley?
O’MALLEY: Martha, thank you. Tonight we have a different debate than the debates that we have been allowed to have so far, because tonight is different because of this reason, that in the course of this presidential campaign America has again been attacked by jihadi terrorists, American lives taken from us. So, yes, we must talk about our ideas to move our economy forward, but the first job of the president of the United States is to protect the people of the United States.
I visited with a number of our neighbors in Northern Virginia at a mosque last Friday. And as I looked out there at the eyes of our neighbors, I also looked in the eyes of veterans. I looked into the eyes of Boy Scouts. I looked into the eyes of moms and dads who would do anything in their power to protect our country’s values and our freedoms.
O’MALLEY: What our nation needs right now is to realize that, while we face a terrible danger, we also face a different sort of political danger. And that is the danger that democracies find themselves susceptible to when unscrupulous leaders try to turn us upon each other. What our country needs right now is new leadership that will bring us together around the values that unite us and the freedoms that we share as Americans.
We will rise to challenge of ISIL and we will rise together to the challenges that we face in our economy. But we will only do so if we hold true to the values and the freedoms that unite us, which means we must never surrender them to terrorists, must never surrender our Americans values to racist, must never surrender to the fascist pleas of billionaires with big mouths.
We are a better country than this. Our enduring symbol is not the barbed wire fence, it is the Statue of Liberty. And America’s best days are in front of us if we move forward together.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: Senator Sanders.
SANDERS: Good evening.
I am running for president of the United States because it is too late for establishment politics and establishment economics. I’m running for president because our economy is rigged because working people are working longer hours for lower wages and almost all of new wealth and income being created is going to the top one percent. I’m running for president because I’m going to create an economy that works for working families not just billionaires.
I’m running for president because we have a campaign finance system which is corrupt, where billionaires are spending hundreds of millionaires of dollars to buy candidates who will represent their interests rather than the middle class and working families. I’m running because we need to address the planetary crisis of climate change and take on the fossil fuel industry and transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy.
I’m running for president because I want a new foreign policy; one that takes on Isis, one that destroys ISIS, but one that does not get us involved in perpetual warfare in the quagmire of the Middle East but rather works around a major coalition of wealthy and powerful nations supporting Muslim troops on the ground. That’s the kind of coalition we need and that’s the kind of coalition I will put together.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: Senator Sanders thank you and thank you all.
We do have a lot of important issues to get here tonight and we want to address the controversy of the last 24 hours right off the top because we heard some of the most heated rhetoric of the campaign so far between two of the campaigns on this stage tonight.
Senator Sanders, you fired a campaign staffer you have sued the Democratic National Committee; all of this after your campaign acknowledge that some of your staffers quote, “irresponsibly accessed data from another campaign.” The Clinton campaign called this a very egregious breech of data of ethics and said, quote, “our data was stolen.”
Did they overstate this or were your staffers essentially stealing part of the Clinton playbook?
SANDERS: David, let me give you a little bit of background here.
The DNC has hired vendors. On two occasions, there were breeches in information two months ago. Our staff found information on our computers from the Clinton campaign. And when our staffers said, “whoa, what’s going here?” They went to the DNC quietly.
They went to the vendor and said, “hey, something is wrong,” and that was quietly dealt with. None of that information was looked at. Our staffer at that point did exactly the right thing.
A few days ago a similar incident happened. There was a breach because the DNC vendor screwed up, information came to our campaign. In this case, our staff did the wrong thing — they looked a that information. As soon as we learned that they looked at that information – we fired that person. We are now doing an independent internal investigation to see who else was involved.
Thirdly, what I have a really problem, and as you mentioned – this is a problem, I recognize it as a problem. But what the DNC did arbitrarily without discussing it with us is shut off our access to our information crippling our campaign. That is an egregious act. I’m glad that late last night, that was resolved.
SANDERS: Fourthly, I work — look forward to working with Secretary Clinton for an investigation, an independent investigation, about all of the breaches that have occurred from day one in this campaign, because I am not convinced that information from our campaign may not have ended up in her campaign. Don’t know that.
But we need an independent investigation, and I hope Secretary Clinton will agree with me for the need of that.
Last point. When we saw the breach two months, we didn’t go running to the media and make a big deal about it. And it bothers me very much that, rather than working on this issue to resolve it, it has become many press releases from the Clinton campaign later.
MUIR: But Senator, you do mention the DNC — the vender. But you said of your staff that they did the wrong thing.
SANDERS: Absolutely.
MUIR: So, does Secretary Clinton deserve an apology tonight?
SANDERS: Yes, I apologize.
MUIR: Secretary Clinton…
(APPLAUSE)
SANDERS: Not only — not only do I apologize to Secretary Clinton — and I hope we can work together on an independent investigation from day one — I want to apologize to my supporters. This is not the type of campaign that we run.
And if I find anybody else involved in this, they will also be fired.
MUIR: Secretary Clinton, he has apologized. How do your react?
CLINTON: I very much appreciate that comment, Bernie. It really is important that we go forward on this.
I know that you now have your data back, and that there has been an agreement for an independent inquiry into what did happen.
Obviously, we were distressed when we learned of it, because we have worked very hard — I said in the beginning of this campaign, we want to reach as many voters as possible, and we have tens of thousands of volunteers doing that, and entering data all the time to keep up with what people are telling us.
And so, now that, I think, you know, we have resolved your data, we have agreed on an independent inquiry, we should move on. Because I don’t think the American people are all that interested in this.
(APPLAUSE)
I think they’re more interested in what we have to say about all the big issues facing us.
O’MALLEY: Yeah, David, look, for crying out loud, our country has been attacked, we have pressing issues involving how we’re going to adapt to this changing era of warfare.
Our economy — people are working harder and being left behind. You want to know why things don’t get done in Washington? Because for the last 24 hours, with those issues being so urgent to people as they tune in tonight, wondering how they’re even be able to buy presents for their kids.
Instead, we’re listening to the bickering back and forth. Maybe that is normal politics in Washington, but that is not the politics of higher purpose that people expect from our party.
We need to address our security issues, we need to address the economic issues around the kitchen table. And if people want a more high-minded politics and want to move our country forward, go on to martinomalley.com and help my campaign move our country forward.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR (?): All three candidates are weighing in.
SANDERS: Let me agree with Governor O’Malley and let me agree with Secretary Clinton. You know, we had this incident before, Secretary, with your famous e-mails. Right?
And what I said and I think what Governor O’Malley is saying, and I hope you say, is when the middle class of this country is disappearing, when we have massive income and wealth inequality, when we’re the only major country on earth not guaranteeing health care to all people, all the issues that the governor talked about, the secretary talked about, those are the issues. Media notwithstanding.
Those are the issues that the American people want discussed. I hope those are the issues we’ll discuss.
MUIR: Good let’s move on — Senator Sanders, let’s move on right to some of those issues.
(APPLAUSE)
It is just six days before Christmas, as we all know in this country. It’s typically a joyful time, as it is this year, as well. But it’s also an anxious time. President Obama has acknowledged that what we saw in San Bernardino was an act of terrorism. But we remember the president said, right before Thanksgiving, there is no known specific and credible intelligence indicating a plot on the homeland.
We now know that this couple had assembled an arsenal. They were not on law enforcement’s radar. They were completely undetected. So as we approach another holiday, with the president again saying, late this week, no credible threat, Secretary Clinton, how confident should the American people be, that there aren’t others like that couple right now in the U.S. going undetected?
And what would you do as president to find them?
CLINTON: Well, first, the most important job of being president is obviously to keep our country safe and to keep the families of America safe.
I have a plan that I’ve put forward to go after ISIS. Not to contain them, but to defeat them. And it has three parts. First, to go after them and deprive them of the territory they occupy now in both Syria and Iraq.
CLINTON: Secondly, to go after and dismantle their global network of terrorism. And thirdly, to do more to keep us safe. Under each of those three parts of my plan, I have very specific recommendations about what to do.
Obviously, in the first, we do have to have a — an American-led air campaign, we have to have Arab and Kurdish troops on the ground. Secondly, we’ve got to go after everything from North Africa to South Asia and beyond.
And then, most importantly, here at home, I think there are three things that we have to get right. We have to do the best possible job of sharing intelligence and information. That now includes the internet, because we have seen that ISIS is a very effective recruiter, propagandist and inciter and celebrator of violence.
That means we have to work more closely with our great tech companies. They can’t see the government as an adversary, we can’t see them as obstructionists. We’ve got to figure out how we can do more to understand who is saying what and what they’re planning.
And we must work more closely with Muslim-American communities. Just like Martin, I met with a group of Muslim-Americans this past week to hear from them about what they’re doing to try to stop radicalization. They will be our early warning signal. That’s why we need to work with them, not demonize them, as the Republicans have been doing.
O’MALLEY: David, I am the very first…
MUIR: (inaudible) thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
I am the very first post-9/11 mayor and the very first post-9/11 governor. I understand, from the ground up, that when attacks like San Bernardino happen, when attacks like the attacks of 9/11 happen, that when people call 911, the first people to show up are the local first responders.
Many of the things Secretary Clinton said are absolutely true, but they underscore a lack of investment that we have, as a nation, failed to make over these last 15 years in intelligence gathering, intelligence analysis, intelligence sharing. Not only in theater, in Syria and Iraq and other places where we embalk (ph) ourselves in toppling dictators without having any idea what comes next, but here in the homeland, as we protect people from this threat of the lone wolves and these changing tactics and strategies.
I believe that what’s happened here is that the president had us on the right course, but it’s a lack of battle tempo. We have to increase the battle tempo, we have to bring a modern way of getting things done and forcing the sharing of information and do a much better job of acting on it in order to prevent these sorts of attacks in the future.
MUIR: And we’re going to break down these issues tonight, but I do want to go to Senator Sanders because the concern going into Christmas is significant, as you know. A new ABC News poll shows 77 percent of Americans have little or no confidence in the government’s ability to prevent a lone wolf attack. How would you specifically find would-be terrorist who are going undetected?
SANDERS: I’m one of the 77 percent. I think this is a very difficult issue. Let me agree with much of what the secretary and the governor have said. Let me tell you what I think we have got to do. I think it’s a two-pronged issue.
Number one, our goal is to crush and destroy ISIS. What is the best way to do it? Well, I think there are some differences of opinion here, perhaps between the secretary and myself. I voted against the war in Iraq because I thought unilateral military action would not produce the results that were necessary and would lead to the kind of unraveling and instability that we saw in the Middle East.
I do not believe in unilateral American action. I believe in action in which we put together a strong coalition of forces, major powers and the Muslim nations. I think one of the heroes in a real quagmire out there, in a dangerous and difficult world, one of the heroes who we should recognize in the Middle East is King Abdullah II of Jordan. This small country has welcomed in many refugees.
And Abdullah said something recently, very important. He said, “Yes, international terrorism is by definition an international issue, but it is primarily an issue of the Muslim nations who are fighting for the soul of Islam. We the Muslims should lead the effort on the ground.” And I believe he is absolutely right.
MUIR: Senator, thank you.
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, in the wake of the San Bernardino attack, you all emphasized gun control. But our latest poll shows that more Americans believe arming people, not stricter gun laws, is the best defense against terrorism. Are they wrong?
CLINTON: Well, I think you have to look at both the terrorism challenge that we face abroad and certainly at home and the role that guns play in delivering the violence that stalks us. Clearly, we have to have a very specific set of actions to take. You know, when Senator Sanders talks about a coalition, I agree with him about that. We’ve got to build a coalition abroad. We also have to build a coalition at home. Abroad, we need a coalition that is going to take on ISIS. I know how hard that is. I know it isn’t something you just hope people will do and I’ve worked on that…
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, can we stick to gun control?
CLINTON: Yes, I’m getting…
RADDATZ: Are they wrong?
CLINTON: … I’m getting to that. Because I think if you only think about the coalition abroad you’re missing the main point, which is we need a coalition here at home. Guns, in and of themselves, in my opinion, will not make Americans safer. We lose 33,000 people a year already to gun violence, arming more people to do what I think is not the appropriate response to terrorism.
I think what is…
(APPLAUSE)
Is creating much deeper, closer relations and, yes, coalitions within our own country. The first line of defense against radicalization is in Muslim-American community. People who we should be welcoming and working with.
I worry greatly that the rhetoric coming from the Republicans, particularly Donald Trump, is sending a message to Muslims here in the United States and literally around the world that there is a “clash of civilizations,” that there is some kind of Western plot or even “war against Islam,” which then I believe fans the flames of radicalization.
So guns have to be looked at as its own problem, but we also have to figure out how we’re going to deal with the radicalization here in the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: Senator Sanders — wait just a moment, please, Governor O’Malley.
Senator Sanders, we’ve seen those long lines of people buying guns in record numbers after the Paris attacks. Would you discourage people from buying a gun?
SANDERS: It’s a country in which people choose to buy guns. I think half of the — more than half of the people in my own state of Vermont, my guess here in New Hampshire, are gun owners. That’s the right of people.
But this is what I do believe. I believe that when we have some 300 million guns in this country, I believe that when we have seen these horrific mass killings, not only in San Bernardino, but in Colorado and movie theaters in Colorado, I think we have got to bring together the vast majority of the people who do in fact believe in sensible gun safety regulations.
For example, talking about polls, a poll recently came out, overwhelming majority of the American people say we should strengthen the instant background check. Who denies that it is crazy…
(APPLAUSE)
Who denies that it is crazy to allow people to own guns who are criminals or are mentally unstable? We’ve got to eliminate the gun show loophole. In my view, we have got to see that weapons designed by the military to kill people are not in the hands of civilians.
I think there is a consensus.
(APPLAUSE)
I think — I’m not going to say that everybody is in agreement. It’s a divided country on guns. But there is a broad consensus on sensible gun safety regulations that I, coming from a state that has virtually no gun control, will do my best to bring together.
O’MALLEY: Martha, if I may…
RADDATZ: Thank you, Senator Sanders.
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: I think we’re going to go on…
O’MALLEY: Excuse me, no.
MUIR: Governor, we have to abide the rules here, we’ll call on you here shortly, but…
O’MALLEY: I am the only person on this stage who has actually…
MUIR: But I do want pick up on something…
O’MALLEY: … passed comprehensive gun safety legislation with a ban on combat assault weapons, David.
And, look, there are profound differences…
(APPLAUSE)
O’MALLEY: Senator Sanders voted against the Brady Bill. Senator Sanders voted to give immunity to gun dealers. And Senator Sanders voted against even research dollars to look into this public health issue.
Secretary Clinton changes her position on this every election year, it seems, having one position in 2000 and then campaigning against President Obama and saying we don’t need federal standards.
Look, what we need on this issue is not more polls. We need more principle. When ISIL does training videos that say the easiest way to get a combat assault weapon in the United States of America is at a gun show, then we should all be waking up. We need comprehensive gun safety legislation and a ban on assault weapons.
RADDATZ: Governor, now — and let me stay with gun control for a minute, then. You talk about assault weapons. Even if you were able to ban the purchase of assault weapons tomorrow, Americans already own an estimated 7 to 10 million semi-automatic rifles.
Would you make it illegal to own those weapons, force people to turn them in? And if not, how would banning the sales really make a difference?
O’MALLEY: Because, Martha, it would prevent people like the guy that just got charged yesterday perhaps from being able to buy combat assault weapons. You know, we are the only nation, only developed nation on the planet…
RADDATZ: But, again, I’m not talking about buying. Would you have them confiscated? The ones that are already here?
O’MALLEY: No, Martha, I would not. And that’s not what we did in Maryland. But you know what we did in Maryland? We overcame the NRA’s objections. We overcame all of the crowds that were coming down there.
We did our own rallies. And at least if we enact these laws in a prospective way, we can address a major vulnerability in our country. ISIL videos, ISIL training videos are telling lone wolves the easiest way to buy a combat assault weapon in America is at a gun show.
And it’s because of the flip-flopping, political approach of Washington that both of my two colleagues on this stage have represented there for the last forty years.
SANDERS: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s calm down a little bit, Martin.
CLINTON: Yes, let’s tell the truth, Martin.
O’MALLEY: I am telling the truth.
SANDERS: First of all, let’s have some rules here, commentators.
MUIR: We will.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: All right.
MUIR: But let me just establish that for you, senator. Really quickly governor, we are going to call on you tonight and it’s very clear you have a lot to say but please wait until you’re called upon. And senator, he invoked your record and I’ll let you respond.
SANDERS: He sure did.
MUIR: I’ll let you respond.
CLINTON: He invoked mine as well.
MUIR: And you will get some to as well.
SANDERS: Sure did. All right. First off, we can do all the great speeches we want but you’re not going to succeed unless there is a consensus. In 1988, just to set the record straight governor, I ran for the U.S. House. We have one House member from Vermont, three candidates in the race. One candidate said, you know what, I don’t think it’s a great idea that we sell automatic weapons in this country that are used by the military to kill people very rapidly.
Gun people said, there were three candidates in the race, you vote for one of the others, but not Bernie Sanders. I lost that election by three percentage points. Quite likely, for that reason. So please, do not explain to me, coming from a state where democratic governors and republican governors have supported virtually no gun control.
(CROSSTALK)
Excuse me. Do not tell me that I have not shown courage in standing up to the gun people, in voting to ban assault weapons, voting for instant background checks, voting to end the gun show loop hole and now we’re in a position to create a consensus in America on gun safety.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: Senator, thank you. I want to move on here. Secretary Clinton, you brought up Donald Trump a short time ago.
CLINTON: I do and this is an important issue and I know we’ll get to a lot of other critical ones as well. I actually agree with Governor O’Malley about the need for common sense gun safety measures. And I applaud his record in Maryland. I just wish he wouldn’t misrepresent mine. I have been for the Brady bill, I have been against assault weapons.
I have voted not to give gun makers and sellers immunity. And I also know that — and I’m glad to see this — Senator Sanders has really moved in face of the facts about what we’re confronting in our country. I know that he has said in the two previous that he wants to take on this immunity issue because we need to send a strong message to the gun manufacturers, to the sellers, to the gun lobby.
And I would hope, Senator Sanders, that you would join the Democrats who are trying to close the Charleston loophole, that you would sponsor or co-sponsor legislation to remove the absolute immunity. We need to move on this consensus that exists in the country. It’s no longer enough just to say the vast majority of Americans want common sense gun safety measures including gun owners.
We need, and only the three of us will do this, nobody on the Republican side will even admit there’s a problem. And in whatever way the three of us can we need to move this agenda forward and begin to deal with the gun lobby and the intimidation that they present.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: Secretary Clinton, thank you. We’re going to move on from guns here and go back to something you mentioned a short time ago. You brought up Donald Trump first here this evening. We’ve now seen the polling done well after his proposed ban on Muslims coming to America. Thirty-six percent of Americans, more than a third, agree with him.
You have weighed in already on Donald Trump. You’ve weighed in on the proposed ban. But what would you say to the millions of Americans watching tonight who agree with him? Are they wrong?
CLINTON: Well I think a lot of people are understandably reacting out of fear and anxiety about what they’re seeing. First what they saw in Paris, now what they have seen in San Bernardino. And Mr. Trump has a great capacity to use bluster and bigotry to inflame people and to make think there are easy answers to very complex questions.
So what I would say is, number one, we need to be united against the threats that we face. We need to have everybody in our country focused on watching what happens and reporting it if it’s suspicious, reporting what you hear. Making sure that Muslim Americans don’t feel left out or marginalized at the very moment when we need their help.
CLINTON: You know, I was a senator from New York after 9/11, and we spent countless hours trying to figure out how to protect the city and the state from perhaps additional attacks. One of the best things that was done, and George W. Bush did this and I give him credit, was to reach out to Muslim Americans and say, we’re in this together. You are not our adversary, you are our partner.
And we also need to make sure that the really discriminatory messages that Trump is sending around the world don’t fall on receptive ears. He is becoming ISIS’s best recruiter. They are going to people showing videos of Donald Trump insulting Islam and Muslims in order to recruit more radical jihadists. So I want to explain why this is not in America’s interest to react with this kind of fear and respond to this sort of bigotry.
MUIR: Secretary, thank you.
Senator Sanders, I did want to ask you about a neighbor in San Bernardino who reportedly witnessed packages being delivered to that couple’s home, that it set off red flags, but they didn’t report it because they were afraid to profile. What would you say to Americans afraid to profile? Is it ever acceptable?
SANDERS: Well, the answer is, obviously, if you see suspicious activity, you report it. That’s kind of a no-brainer. You know, somebody is loading guns and ammunition into a house, I think it’s a good idea to call 911. Do it.
(LAUGHTER)
MUIR: But I’m asking about — I’m asking about profiling. Because a lot of people are afraid of that.
SANDERS: But I want to talk — I want to talk about something else, because Secretary Clinton I think made some interesting and good points. What you have now is a very dangerous moment in American history.
The secretary is right: Our people are fearful. They are anxious on a number of levels. They are anxious about international terrorism and the possibility of another attack on America. We all understand that.
But you know what else they’re anxious about? They’re anxious about the fact that they are working incredibly long hours, they’re worried about their kids, and they’re seeing all the new income and wealth — virtually all of it — going to the top 1 percent. And they’re looking around them, and they’re looking at Washington, and they’re saying the rich are getting much richer, I’m getting poorer, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do for my kids?
And somebody like a Trump comes along and says, “I know the answers. The answer is that all of the Mexicans, they’re criminals and rapists, we’ve got to hate the Mexicans. Those are your enemies. We hate all the Muslims, because all of the Muslims are terrorists. We’ve got to hate the Muslims.” Meanwhile, the rich get richer.
So what I say to those people who go to Donald Trump’s rallies, understand: He thinks a low minimum wage in America is a good idea. He thinks low wages are a good idea.
I believe we stand together to address the real issues facing this country, not allow them to divide us by race or where we come from. Let’s create an America that works for all of us, not the handful on top.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: Senator, thank you.
RADDATZ: I want to move to another…
O’MALLEY: Martha, may I — Martha, may I…
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: No, no, not yet, Governor O’Malley.
O’MALLEY: Can I share this quick story?
RADDATZ: No, not yet, Governor O’Malley.
O’MALLEY: Oh. All right.
RADDATZ: I’ll come to you when we call on you. Thank you very much.
O’MALLEY: When you come back to me, I’ll share that story.
RADDATZ: You’ll be happy. I’ll let — I’ll let you talk then.
Secretary Clinton, I want to talk about a new terrorist tool used in the Paris attacks, encryption. FBI Director James Comey says terrorists can hold secret communications which law enforcement cannot get to, even with a court order.
You’ve talked a lot about bringing tech leaders and government officials together, but Apple CEO Tim Cook said removing encryption tools from our products altogether would only hurt law-abiding citizens who rely on us to protect their data. So would you force him to give law enforcement a key to encrypted technology by making it law? CLINTON: I would not want to go to that point. I would hope that, given the extraordinary capacities that the tech community has and the legitimate needs and questions from law enforcement, that there could be a Manhattan-like project, something that would bring the government and the tech communities together to see they’re not adversaries, they’ve got to be partners.
It doesn’t do anybody any good if terrorists can move toward encrypted communication that no law enforcement agency can break into before or after. There must be some way. I don’t know enough about the technology, Martha, to be able to say what it is, but I have a lot of confidence in our tech experts.
And maybe the back door is the wrong door, and I understand what Apple and others are saying about that. But I also understand, when a law enforcement official charged with the responsibility of preventing attacks — to go back to our early questions, how do we prevent attacks — well, if we can’t know what someone is planning, we are going to have to rely on the neighbor or, you know, the member of the mosque or the teacher, somebody to see something.
CLINTON: I just think there’s got to be a way, and I would hope that our tech companies would work with government to figure that out. Otherwise, law enforcement is blind — blind before, blind during, and, unfortunately, in many instances, blind after.
So we always have to balance liberty and security, privacy and safety, but I know that law enforcement needs the tools to keep us safe. And that’s what i hope, there can be some understanding and cooperation to achieve.
RADDATZ: And Governor O’Malley, where do you draw the line between national security and personal security?
O’MALLEY: I believe that we should never give up our privacy; never should give up our freedoms in exchange for a promise of security. We need to figure this out together. We need a collaborative approach. We need new leadership.
The way that things work in the modern era is actually to gather people around the table and figure these things out. The federal government should have to get warrants. That’s not some sort of passe you know, antique sort of principle that safeguards our freedoms.
But at the same time with new technologies I believe that the people creating these projects — I mean these products also have an obligation to come together with law enforcement to figure these things out; true to our American principles and values.
My friend Kashif, who is a doctor in Maryland; back to this issue of our danger as a democracy of turning against ourselves. He was putting his 10 and 12-year-old boys to bed the other night. And he is a proud American Muslim. And one of his little boys said to him, “Dad, what happens if Donald Trump wins and we have to move out of our homes?” These are very, very real issues. this is a clear and present danger in our politics within.
We need to speak to what unites us as a people; freedom of worship, freedom of religion, freedom of expression. And we should never be convinced to give up those freedoms in exchange for a promise of greater security; especially from someone as untried and as incompetent as Donald Trump.
RADDATZ: Thank you, Governor O’Malley.
MUIR: Martha, we’re going to turn now to refugees coming to America. And on the subject of refugees, more than half of all Americans now say they oppose taking in refugees from Syria and across the Middle East.
Secretary Clinton, you have said that it would undermine who we are as Americans, shutting our doors. But New Hampshire’s governor, where we are right here tonight, a democrat and a supporter of yours, is among more than 30 governors who are now concerned. Governor Maggie Hassan says, “we should halt acceptance of Syrian refugees until U.S. authorities can assure the vetting process, halt Syrian refugees.” Is she wrong?
CLINTON: Well, I agree that we have to have the toughest screening and vetting…
MUIR: But a halt?
CLINTON: I don’t think a halt is necessary. What we have to do is put all of our resources through the Department of Homeland Security, through the State Department, through our intelligence agencies, and we have to have an increased vetting and screening. Now, this takes, David, 18 months to 24 months, two years.
So I know it’s not going to happen overnight and everything that can be done should be done. But the process should move forward while we are also taking on ISIS, putting together the kind of strategy that I’ve advocated for, and making sure that the vetting and the screening is as tough as possible. Because I do believe that we have a history and a tradition, that is part of our values system and we don’t want to sacrifice our values.
We don’t want to make it seem as though we are turning into a nation of fear instead of a nation of resolve. So I want us to have a very tough screening process but I want that process to go forward. And if at the end of 18 months, 24 months there are people who have been cleared, and I would prioritize widows, and orphans, and the elderly, people who may have relatives, families, or have nowhere else to go. I would prioritize them.
And that would I think give the American public a bit more of a sense of security about who is being processed and who might end up coming as refugees.
MUIR: Governor O’Malley, obviously you were governor yourself at one time. What would you say to New Hampshire’s governor tonight? Is she wrong on this?
O’MALLEY: No, what I would say is this is look, I was the first of the three of us to call for America to accept the 65,000 refugees we were asked to accept. And if this humanitarian crisis increases, we should accept more.
MUIR: So the idea of a halt or a pause?
(APPLAUSE)
O’MALLEY: David, there are wider vulnerabilities than when it comes to refugees. I met recently with some members of the Chaldean Christian communities and the wait times are a year, 18 months, 24 months. There is a pretty excruciating process that refugees go through. We need to invest more in terms of the other sort of visas and the other sort of waivers.
O’MALLEY: What these Chaldean families told me was that their families in Syria, when ISIS moves into their town, they actually paint a red cross across the door and mark their homes for demolition, and that tells the family you’d better get out now. The sort of genocide and brutality that the victims are suffering, these are not the perpetrators.
We need to be the nation whose enduring symbol is the Statue of Liberty, and we need to act like the great country we are, according to our values.
MUIR: Governor, thank you.
RADDATZ: Senator Sanders — Senator Sanders, we’re going to move on. We’re going to move on.
SANDERS: Excuse me. May I have a chance to respond to this issue?
RADDATZ: We’re going to move on to the fight against ISIS. You’re the one who told us we have to follow the rules and break it off.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Yeah, but the rule includes equal — got it. All right.
(LAUGHTER)
RADDATZ: OK. Let’s keep going. Thank you.
SANDERS: All right. Let’s keep going. OK.
RADDATZ: Thank you. I do want to move to the fight against ISIS.
SANDERS: Yeah.
RADDATZ: For the people of New Hampshire, the brutality of ISIS is personal. James Foley grew up here. The first hostage, a journalist, brutally executed last year. You’ve all said ISIS is a ruthless enemy and must be stopped. Al Qaida as well.
Senator Sanders, you voted to send U.S. ground forces to fight in the coalition to help destroy Al Qaida in Afghanistan. Can you then explain you why don’t support sending U.S. combat troops to join a coalition to fight ISIS?
SANDERS: And I also voted and helped lead the effort against the war in Iraq, which will go down in history as one of the worst foreign blunders — foreign policy blunders in the history of our country.
I voted against the first Gulf War, which set the stage, I believe, for the second Iraq war. And what I believe right now, and I believe this is terribly important, is the United States of America cannot succeed, or be thought of as the policeman of the world, that when there’s an international crisis all over the world, in France and in the U.K. Or — hey, just call up the American military and the American taxpayers, they’re going to send the troops.
And if they have to be in the Middle East for 20 or 30 years no problem.
RADDATZ: But why Al Qaida, why not ISIS?
SANDERS: I have a problem with that, Martha. What I believe has got to happen is there must be an international coalition, including Russia, a well-coordinated effort.
But I agree, as I mentioned a moment ago, with King Abdullah. This is a war for the soul of Islam. The troops on the ground should not be American troops. They should be Muslim troops. I believe that countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar have got to step up to the plate, have got to contribute the money that we need, and the troops that we need, to destroy ISIS with American support.
RADDATZ: The administration has tried that over and over again. If it doesn’t work and this threat is so great, what’s your plan B?
SANDERS: My plan is to make it work, to tell Saudi Arabia that instead of going to war in Yemen, they, one of the wealthiest countries on Earth, are going to have to go to war against ISIS.
To tell Qatar, that instead of spending $200 billion on the World Cup, maybe they should pay attention to ISIS, which is at their doorstep.
(APPLAUSE)
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, you too have ruled out a large U.S. combat force, yet you support sending in special operations forces to Syria, and sending those 100 to 200 troops to Iraq to do exploitation kill raids.
We’ve already lost one Delta Force member in a raid. It has looked very much to me like we’re already in ground combat on frequent trips I’ve made there.
So, are you fooling Americans when you say, we’re not putting American combat troops back into Syria or Iraq?
CLINTON: No. Not at all. I think that what we’re facing with ISIS is especially complicated. It was a different situation in Afghanistan. We were attacked from Afghanistan. Al Qaida was based in Afghanistan. We went after those who had attacked us.
What’s happening in Syria and Iraq is that, because of the failures in the region, including the failure of the prior government in Baghdad, led by Maliki, there has been a resurgence of Sunni activities, as exemplified by ISIS. And we have to support Sunni-Arab and Kurdish forces against ISIS, because I believe it would be not only a strategic mistake for the United States to put ground combat troops in, as opposed to special operators, as opposed to trainers, because that is exactly what ISIS wants.
They’ve advertised that. They want American troops back in the Middle East. They want American soldiers on the ground fighting them, giving them many more targets, and giving them a great recruiting opportunity.
CLINTON: So, I think it’s absolutely wrong policy for us to be even imagining we’re going end up putting tens of thousands of American troops into Syria and Iraq to fight ISIS.
And we do have to form a coalition. I know how hard that is. I have formed them. I put together a coalition, including Arabs, with respect to Libya and a coalition to put sanctions onto Iran. And you have to really work hard at it.
And the final thing I would say, bringing Donald Trump back into it, if you’re going to put together a coalition in the region to take on the threat of ISIS you don’t want to alienate the very countries and people you need to be part of the coalition. And so that is part of the reason why this is so difficult.
(APPLAUSE)
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I want — I want to follow up on that. You do support sending special operations forces there. You support what the president has done already. One of the lessons people draw from Vietnam and war since is that a little force can turn into a little more and a little more. President Obama certainly didn’t expect to be sending 30,000 additional troops into Afghanistan the first year of his presidency.
Are you prepared to run the risk of a bigger war to achieve your goals to destroy ISIS, or are you prepared to give up on those goals if it requires a larger force?
CLINTON: Well, I just think you’re asking a question with a false choice. I believe if we lead an air coalition, which we are now in the position of doing and intensify it, if we continue to build back up the Iraqi army, which has had some recent success in Ramadi, as you know, if we get back talking to the tribal sheiks in Anbar to try to rebuild those relationships, which were very successful, in going after Al Qaida in Iraq, if we get the Turks to pay more attention to ISIS than they’re paying to the Kurds, if we do put together the kind of coalition with the specific tasks that I am outlining, I think we can be successful in destroying ISIS.
So that’s what I’m focused on, that’s what I’ve outlined and that’s what I would do as president.
RADDATZ: Governor O’Malley.
(APPLAUSE) You’ve emphasized the need for more human intelligence on the ground. What is it our intelligence community is not doing now that needs to be done?
O’MALLEY: Well, we have invested nowhere near what we should be investing in human intelligence on the ground. And what I’m talking about is not only the covert CIA intelligence, I’m also talking about diplomatic intelligence. I mean, we’ve seen time and time again, especially in this very troubled region of nation-state failures, and then we have no idea who the next generation of leaders are that are coming forward.
So what I would say is not only do we need to be thinking in military terms, but we do our military a disservice when we don’t greatly dial up the investment that we are making in diplomacy and human intelligence and when we fail to dial up properly, the role of sustainable development in all of this. As president, I would make the administrator of USAID an actual cabinet member. We have to act in a much more whole of government approach, as General Dempsey said.
And I do believe, and I would disagree somewhat with one of my colleagues, this is a genocidal threat. They have now created a safe haven in the vacuum that we allowed to be partly and because of our blunders, to be created to be created in the areas of Syria and Iraq. We cannot allow safe havens, and as a leader of moral nations around this Earth, we need to come up with new alliances and new ways to prepare for these new sorts of threats, because Martha, this will not be the last region where nation-states fail.
And you’ve seen a little bit of this emerging in the — in the African Union and the things that they have done to better stabilize Somalia. We need to pay attention here in Central America as well. So this is the new type of threats that we’re facing and we need to lead as a nation in confronting it and putting together new alliances and new coalitions.
CLINTON: Well, I just want to quickly add…
RADDATZ: Thank you.
CLINTON: Martha, that — you know, one of the reasons why I have advocated for a no-fly zone is in order to create those safe refuges within Syria, to try to protect people on the ground both from Assad’s forces, who are continuing to drop barrel bombs, and from ISIS. And of course, it has to be de-conflicted with the Russians, who are also flying in that space.
I’m hoping that because of the very recent announcement of the agreement at the Security Council, which embodies actually an agreement that I negotiated back in Geneva in June of 2012, we’re going to get a diplomatic effort in Syria to begin to try to make a transition. A no-fly zone would prevent the outflow of refugees and give us a chance to have some safe spaces.
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I’d like to go back to that if I could. ISIS doesn’t have aircraft, Al Qaida doesn’t have aircraft. So would you shoot down a Syrian military aircraft or a Russian airplane?
CLINTON: I do not think it would come to that. We are already de-conflicting air space. We know…
RADDATZ: But isn’t that a decision you should make now, whether…
CLINTON: No, I don’t think so. I am advocating…
RADDATZ: … if you’re advocating this?
CLINTON: I am advocating the no-fly zone both because I think it would help us on the ground to protect Syrians; I’m also advocating it because I think it gives us some leverage in our conversations with Russia.
Now that Russia has joined us in the Security Council, has adopted an agreement that we hashed out a long day in Geneva three years ago, now I think we can have those conversations. The no-fly zone, I would hope, would be also shared by Russia. If they will begin to turn their military attention away from going after the adversaries of Assad toward ISIS and put the Assad future on the political and diplomatic track, where it belongs.
(CROSSTALK)
MUIR: I want to take this to Senator — I’m going to take this to Senator Sanders next, because I think there…
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: I have a difference of opinion with Secretary Clinton on this. Our differences are fairly deep on this issue. We disagreed on the war in Iraq. We both listened to the information from Bush and Cheney. I voted against the war.
But I think — and I say this with due respect — that I worry too much that Secretary Clinton is too much into regime change and a little bit too aggressive without knowing what the unintended consequences might be.
Yes, we could get rid of Saddam Hussein, but that destabilized the entire region. Yes, we could get rid of Gadhafi, a terrible dictator, but that created a vacuum for ISIS. Yes, we could get rid of Assad tomorrow, but that would create another political vacuum that would benefit ISIS. So I think, yeah, regime change is easy, getting rid of dictators is easy. But before you do that, you’ve got to think about what happens the day after. And in my view, what we need to do is put together broad coalitions to understand that we’re not going to have a political vacuum filled by terrorists, that, in fact, we are going to move steadily — and maybe slowly — toward democratic societies, in terms of Assad, a terrible dictator. But I think in Syria the primary focus now must be on destroying ISIS and working over the years to get rid of Assad. That’s the secondary issue.
CLINTON: That is exactly…
MUIR: Senator, thank you.
CLINTON: That is exactly what I just said and what I just described.
MUIR: Yeah, but, Secretary Clinton — Secretary Clinton…
CLINTON: And that is important, because now we have a U.N. Security Council that will enable us to do that. And, you know, with all due respect, Senator, you voted for regime change with respect to Libya. You joined the Senate in voting to get rid of Gadhafi, and you asked that there be a Security Council validation of that with a resolution.
All of these are very difficult issues. I know that; I’ve been dealing with them for a long time. And, of course, we have to continue to do what is necessary when someone like Gadhafi, a despot with American blood on his hands, is overturned. But I’ll tell you what would have happened, if we had not joined with our European partners and our Arab partners to assist the people in Libya, you would be looking at Syria. Now the Libyans are turning their attention to try to dislodge ISIS from its foothold and begin to try to move together to have a unified nation.
SANDERS: I was not the secretary of state…
MUIR: Senator Sanders, Senator Sanders, hold on. One moment, please. I’m going to ask the secretary here, because there does appear to be some daylight here between the policies, at least in respect to when you take out Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Right now or do you wait? Do you tackle ISIS first?
You have said, Secretary Clinton, that you come to the conclusion that we have to proceed on both fronts at once. We heard from the senator just this week that we must put aside the issue of how quickly we get rid of Assad and come together with countries, including Russia and Iran, to destroy ISIS first. Is he wrong?
CLINTON: I think we’re missing the point here. We are doing both at the same time.
MUIR: But that’s what he’s saying, we should put that aside for now and go after ISIS. CLINTON: Well, I don’t agree with that, because we will not get the support on the ground in Syria to dislodge ISIS if the fighters there who are not associated with ISIS, but whose principal goal is getting rid of Assad, don’t believe there is a political, diplomatic channel that is ongoing. We now have that. We have the U.N. Security Council adopting a resolution that lays out a transition path. It’s very important we operate on both at the same time.
And let me just say a word about coalition-building, because I’ve heard Senator Sanders say this. I know how hard it is to build coalitions. I think it would be a grave mistake to ask for any more Iranian troops inside Syria. That is like asking the arsonist to come and pour more gas on the fire.
The Iranians getting more of a presence in Syria, linking with Hezbollah, their proxy in Lebanon, would threaten Israel and would make it more difficult for us to move on a path to have a transition that at some point would deal with Assad’s future.
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: I happen to think…
O’MALLEY: I’d like to offer a…
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: She says we have to proceed on both fronts at once.
SANDERS: Secretary Clinton is right. This is a complicated issue. I don’t think anyone has a magical solution.
But this is what I do believe. Yes, of course Assad is a terrible dictator. But I think we have got to get our foreign policies and priorities right. The immediate — it is not Assad who is attacking the United States. It is ISIS. And ISIS is attacking France and attacking Russian airliners.
The major priority, right now, in terms of our foreign and military policy should be the destruction of ISIS.
(APPLAUSE)
And I think — and I think we bring together that broad coalition, including Russia, to help us destroy ISIS. And work on a timetable to get rid of Assad, hopefully through Democratic elections. First priority, destroy ISIS.
MUIR: Senator sanders, thank you.
O’MALLEY: May I offer a different generation’s perspective on this?
MUIR: Governor O’Malley?
O’MALLEY: During the Cold War — during the Cold War, we got into a bad habit of always looking to see who was wearing the jersey of the communists, and who was wearing the U.S. jersey. We got into a bad habit of creating big bureaucracies, old methodologies, to undermine regimes that were not friendly to the United States. Look what we did in Iran with Mosaddegh. And look at the results that we’re still dealing with because of that. I would suggest to you that we need to leave the Cold War behind us, and we need to put together new alliances and new approaches to dealing with this, and we need to restrain ourselves.
I mean, I know Secretary Clinton was gleeful when Gadhafi was torn apart. And the world, no doubt is a better place without him. But look, we didn’t know what was happening next. And we fell into the same trap with Assad, saying — as if it’s our job to say, Assad must go.
We have a role to play in this world. But we need to leave the Cold War and that sort of antiquated thinking behind.
MUIR: But — you criticized — you criticized Secretary Clinton for what came next. What’s your proposal for what comes after Assad?
O’MALLEY: I believe that we need to focus on destroying ISIL. That is the clear and present danger. And I believe that we can springboard off of this new U.N. resolution, and we should create, as Secretary Clinton indicated, and I agree with that, that there should be a political process.
But we shouldn’t be the ones declaring that Assad must go. Where did it ever say in the Constitution, where is it written that it’s the job of the United States of America or its secretary of State to determine when dictators have to go?
We have a role to play in this world. But it is not the world — the role of traveling the world looking for new monsters to destroy.
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: David…
CLINTON: Since he has been making all kinds of comments.
(LAUGHTER)
I think it’s fair to say, Assad has killed, by last count, about 250,000 Syrians. The reason we are in the mess we’re in, that ISIS has the territory it has, is because of Assad.
I advocated arming the moderate opposition back in the day when I was still secretary of State, because I worried we would end up exactly where we are now.
And so, when we look at these complex problems, I wish it could be either/or. I wish we could say yes, let’s go destroy ISIS and let’s let Assad continue to destroy Syria, which creates more terrorists, more extremists by the minute.
No. We now finally are where we need to be. We have a strategy and a commitment to go after ISIS, which is a danger to us as well as the region… SANDERS (?): Secretary…
CLINTON: And we finally have a U.N. Security Council Resolution bringing the world together to go after a political transition in Syria.
SANDERS: Could I just say — just say this…
CLINTON: If the United States does not lead, there is not another leader. There is a vacuum.
SANDERS: Can I just say this…
CLINTON: And we have to lead, if we’re going to be successful.
(APPLAUSE)
MUIR: Senator Sanders, please. Go ahead.
Senator Sanders, a last word on this.
SANDERS: Of course the United States must lead. But the United States is not the policeman of the world. The United States must not be involved in perpetual warfare in the Middle East. The United States, at the same time, cannot successfully fight Assad and ISIS.
ISIS, now, is the major priority. Let’s get rid of Assad later. Let’s have a Democratic Syria. But the first task is to bring countries together to destroy ISIS.
MUIR: Senator Sanders, thank you. When we come back here tonight, the other major issues of this election: jobs, the economy, health care.
Which candidates will make the best case for the middle class, as our coverage of the Democratic debate, here in New Hampshire, continues right after this on ABC.
ANNOUNCER: ABC News coverage of the New Hampshire Democratic debate will continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MUIR: Welcome back tonight. As you can see, we have a packed audience here in New Hampshire and we’re going to continue. We’ve already had a spirited conversation here at the top of the broadcast about ISIS, about the concerns of terror here on the homefront and as we await Secretary Clinton backstage, we’re going to begin on the economy.
We want to turn to the American jobs, wages and raises in this country. And we believe Secretary Clinton will be coming around the corner any minute. But in the mean time we want to start with this eye-opening number. And Senator Sanders, this question goes to you first, anyway.
In 1995, the median American household income was $52,600 in today’s money. This year, it’s $53,600. That’s 20 more years on the job with just a 2 percent raise. In a similar time-frame, raises for CEOs went up more than 200 percent.
(APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: Sorry.
MUIR: We’re going to continue here, and Secretary, you’ll get a chance on this too.
But as I pointed out the CEO pay, 200 percent of their time — for that family of just 2 percent. You’ve all said, “you would raise the minimum wage.” But Senator Sanders what else – speak to that household tonight. 20 years, just a 2 percent raise, how as president would you get them a raise right away?
SANDERS: First of all, we recognize that we have a rigged economy, as you’ve indicated. Middle class in this country for the last 40 years has been disappearing; are we better of today then we were when Bush left office? Absolutely. But as you’ve indicated for millions of American workers, people in New Hampshire — all over America, they’re working longer hours for lower wages deeply worried about their kids. So what do we do?
First statement is, we tell the billionaire class, “they cannot have it all.” For a start, they’re going to start to pay their fair share of taxes. Second of all what we do, is you raise the minimum wage to living wage, 15 bucks an hour over the next several years. Next thing we do, pay equity for women workers. Women should not be making 79 cents on the dollar compared to that.
Next thing that we do, real unemployment — official unemployment, 5 percent, real employment 10 percent, youth unemployment, off the charts. We rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, our roads our bridges, our rail systems, we create 13 million jobs with a trillion-dollar investment.
Furthermore, in a competitive global economy, it is imperative that we have the best educated workforce in the world. That is why I’m going to have a tax on Wall Street speculation to make certain that public colleges and universities in America are tuition free.
MUIR: Senator Sanders, thank you.
Governor O’Malley, what would propose that would be different, how would you get the middle class a raise and without waiting another 20 years for another 2 percent.
O’MALLEY: Look these are the things that we did in own state through the recession. We actually passed a living wage. We raised the minimum wage. We actually raised it to the highest goals of any state in the nation also in minority and women participant goals because we understood that the way you reinvigorate and make fair market American capitalism work, is to make the choices and the investments that include more people more full