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What even is the LGBT+ community?
No, seriously, take a second and answer this for me.
What exactly is the LGBT+ community? Is it a physical thing? A metaphorical thing? Is it a place to go? Is it a discussion board? Is it something with a membership card? Is it something you have a badge for? Is it a center to hang out?
What are people trying to “protect”? Trying to keep “ pure”? What “resources” are being “used up” by those “dirty cishet aces/aros” that make you so angry that you gotta make side blogs and long posts and hateful messages?
And why are suddenly sga and trans people so similar in the ace discourse? Why is it “their problems”? What are “their” problems as a collective? What does a cis sga person know about transphobia? Does being in the LGBT+ community give them a stage in that discussion? No? Then the LGBT+ community isn’t fighting transphobia - the transgender community is. So why aren’t cishet aces/aros allowed if they don’t experience homophobia or transphobia? Because you want to disregard one of their identities because you don’t like the others? Do we disregard homophobic transgender people and transphobic sga people too? Why are y’all so obsessed with dividing the grey community? Why can’t you just see asexuals and aromantics? Why do they have to be the “right” kind for you to even have problems? Why do you spend so much time telling asexuals and aromantics that they’ re problems mean nothing? Why do you do the exact thing that society does to us, then turn around and say that we mean shit to you?
Is it systematic oppression? Basing an entire community on the level of oppression one can have enacted on them? And what about if they’re closeted? Passing? Do you exclude those people or have it in the back of your minds - their minds - that one day, one day they’ll be open and oppressed? Is that the kind of mentality you based the LGBT+ community on? That, yes, we’ re oppressed, but at least we’re oppressed together?
I thought the LGBT+ community was for finding a place to have pride in an orientation and identity that is not normalized in society. I thought it was a safe community to talk about problems that cisheteronormativity pushed on us.
What is it then, if not that?
The LGBT community is a loose network of organizations, events, spaces, and groups, both online and off, in which LGBT people both take part in and are the main focus. Ex. LGBT charities, scholarship organizations, pride parades, college groups, community centers, bars, homeless shelters, forums, Facebook groups, tumblr tags, etc.
Some of the resources the community provides include:
scholarships
homeless shelters
free or low-cost STD testing/treatment
legal representation for cases of discrimination
suicide hotlines
LGBT-friendly counseling/psychological services
research grants for LGBT issues
low-cost hormones, srs, binders, etc. for trans people who need it
political lobbying against anti-LGBT bills
sex ed & free condoms
funds for LGBT events (panels, pride parades, etc.)
real-life support groups
I know there’s more that I’m surely forgetting, but i think 11 is still a pretty decent number to illustrate that there are material, concrete services provided by the LGBT community.
It’s important to realize that all of the resources listed cost time and money, both of which are limited commodities. When cishet aces and aros demand to be included and have access to hotlines that have very few volunteers and too many calls, support groups that pay to rent out a tiny room in a building that can only fit seven people, event funds that are extremely limited, etc. they are taking away time, money, and places that could have be spent on sga and trans people. When sga and trans people talk about resources, we don’t mean understanding and pride, we mean concrete services that abide by the rules of scarcity.
You are correct that cis sga people and straight trans people do not face the same types of oppression and are capable of oppressing each other. However, the alliance between sga and trans people is based on history and mutual agreement, something that cannot be said about the connection between sga/trans people and ace/aro people. Back when the LGBT rights movement began, the clear-cut distinction between sga and trans people that we have today didn’t exist; the line between gay, bi, trans, etc. was very blurry, to the point where homophobia and transphobia were pretty much indistinguishable from one another. The first wave of the LGBT rights movement was started by bi trans women of color in response to police brutality against BOTH sga and trans people. The police at the time would raid “gay” bars (gay in parenthesis because these bars were also hubs for bi, trans, etc. people, because once again, there was no clear-cut distinction) because they were places where sga and trans people gathered. The police didn’t make any distinction between them; they were seen and attacked as one.
The LGBT rights movement and community includes both sga and trans people because, at the time, their problems WERE largely the same. The line between transphobia and homophobia wasn’t drawn until the 90′s. And the reason why sga and trans people continue to share a community despite facing different isses and oppressions is because both sga and trans people agree to. It’s based on mutual agreement. There are tons of all-around general LGBT organizations that contribute resources to fighting both homophobia and transphobia. And honestly, as a nb lesbian, I’d argue that the line between homophobia and transphobia can still be pretty foggy at times despite being more defined now than it was in the 70′s.
When it comes to cishet aces and aros, the story is nearly the opposite. Ace and aro communities first developed on the internet in the late 90′s completely independent of the LGBT community. David Jay, a cis heteromantic asexual man and founder of AVEN, was the first to assert that cishet ace and aro people are apart of the LGBT community in the early 2000′s and the assertion caught on among AVEN’s userbase, which at the time was both the largest ace community on the internet and primary dominated by cishet aces and aros (which it still is, actually).
There was zero basis for adding cishet ace and aro people to the LGBT community. Asexuality and aromanticism were never intertwined with other LGBT identities the way that sga and trans were. And more importantly, it was done without the consent of sga and trans people.
This doesn’t mean that cishet aces and aros face zero problems or don’t deserve a community. What it does mean is that it’s not the sga and trans people’s responsibility to focus what little time and money the LGBT community has, resources that sga and trans people spent decades creating, on cishet aces and aros who never contributed to the building of those resources in the first place. That would be the responsibility of aces and aros, who actually did have an independent, thriving community in the early 2000′s capable of laying the groundwork for it’s own resources and services, but all of that got thrown aside when David Jay thought they’d be better off taking resources and services from the LGBT community instead.
I’m having a hard time comprehending your third paragraph, but yes the LGBT community is absolutely based on systematic oppression? Which I’m assuming you have very little grasp of considering you seem to think that closeted or “passing” people don’t experience it. Closeted and “passing” (whatever you mean by that?) sga and trans people DO experience systematic oppression. All sga and trans people do, period.
“At least we’re oppressed together” is probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read in a while. You realize that a GROUP of oppressed people have much more leverage than an individual, right? So yes, absolutely I’d rather be a part of a community that focuses on my oppression than face it alone, like fuck, who wouldn’t?
The LGBT community is not for pride and acceptance, although those things can be a biproduct of it’s main purpose; the LGBT community has been and always will be for fighting against the systematic oppression of sga and trans people, whether it takes the form of police brutality like it did in the 70′s, the AIDS crisis like it did in the 80′s, the ban on same-sex marriage like it did in the 00′s, or other discriminating legislation like it is right now, as well as providing concrete, tangible resources like the ones I listed about for sga and trans people. It’s not all rainbows and glitter like the ace and aro community seems to believe.
Signed,
an aro non-binary lesbian.
So now the LGBT+ community is cutting out the +, what’s next? Are they going to cut out the Bi people because they can be in het relationships? No. That’s bullshit. The cishet ace and aros community is part of the LGBT+ community. If you don’t like it then shut your damn mouth. They deserve the same respect and help that gay, trans, lesbian, and bisexual people get. It obviously is not “rainbows and glitter” if these people are trying to get the help you are complaining about. Get over yourself and respect the other people in your community.
-Signed,
A Bisexual
hashem pls kill me now
since you clearly didn’t read the post, let me summarize for you:
the community was founded by bi women of color so no bi people aren’t gonna get cut out they’ve always been there
cishet aces and aros, lead by massive homophobe David Jay, forced themselves into the community in the early 2000′s without the consent of sga and trans people already in the community, DESPITE the fact that the ace community had already been around for almost a decade at the point and was completely independent from the LGBT community up until then
and no, i’m not gonna shut my mouth about oppressors overtaking my community. they can go make their own.
you know who would also benefit from our resources? pretty much any other group that faces some sort of prejudice. i mean, cishet disabled people can totally use legal rep, psychological services, homeless shelters, and research grants, so why don’t we let them in too? (speaking as a disabled person). or I know! let’s give all the money ment to go towards sga and trans people to cishet women! they could benefit from sexual health services and shelters too!
literally why the fuck are sga and trans people expected to give up the resources we spent decades fighting for and establishing to anyone who demands them? like, if cishet non-ace women woke up and decided they needed a place in the lgbt community one day because they’re oppressed for their gender, would you let them in?
if your answer is no then you’re a hypocrite because that’s exactly what cishet ace and aro people did. woke up one morning and demanded to be included in a group they had made no previous contributions to nor had any connection to despite having their own community to address their own problems.
You know, I’ve been trying to wrap my head around why your post touched me the wrong way for a while. A long while that included a complete rethought on my entire stance on life that fucked me over nice and well, but I think I finally get it.
You’re entire argument is: It’s new and I don’t like it.
Quite literally, that’s all it is.
You took an entire hour to gather all the information on LGBT history and why asexuals and aromantics weren’t in the community from the start and how that means they can never be because the entire community would collapse into itself, but I’d like to ask why you look to the past so much to determine the future.
To clarify what I’m asking: why can’t asexuals and aromantics be in the community now?
It troubles me the examples you use. Specifically: suicide hotlines, counseling/psychological services, and real-life support group. That says to me that you do not believe that asexuals and aromantics that suffer from distress linked to their sexuality and romanticism deserve people to help them, even if their problem leads to suicide and depression. Why are there services like these directed at LGBT people specifically? Because they can not be understood and can even be mocked completely by non-LGBT hotlines and therapists. Which is one of the biggest problems asexuals and aromantics face; their sexuality and romanticism being considered strange and wrong by society, specifically the medical field which has repeatedly told us that our orientation is a disorder. I understand that there may be a scarcity of resources, but…where are we supposed to turn to? There are far less Grey people than LGBT people, we have even less resources.
I don’t even use AVEN after I signed up and in the first chat groups I was in, I had to explain to someone what asexuality was. On AVEN. The asexual website. If you know as much about asexual discourse as you seem to think you do, then you would know of the asexual flight from AVEN of hard-line and antisexual asexuals and the sub sequential hole that those (though not very good minded) asexual-orientated aces created and the numerous asexual websites that were built and were dismantled afterwards. Why am I telling you this? Because asexuality and aromanticism is widely a spectrum and as such, no one can come to agreements because of it. No asexual wants to use a asexual hotline where they could get a hard-line ace on the other end telling them that they’re not a real ace. Asexuals are too different to form a well organized community. We have no resources. We can not form resources from anywhere when we are not even recognized. You are literally telling asexuals that you would rather them die then have them use a LGBT resource, because they will not get it anywhere else.
Also, I do not appreciate you pushing David Jay and using him against us. You outright said that he was a homophobic transphobic man and that asexuals can not separate them from our identity. Which I will concede partly because he was the REASON the driving force that many asexuals found themselves and others like them. But I’d also like for you to realize that you are telling sga and trans aces that their asexual and aromantic identity is tied to a homophobic and transphobic man and that that will never change. You are pushing a man that hates them on them flippantly to push cishet aces away. You are shaming their grey identity. Please do not do that.
You have repeatedly stated that asexuals and aromantics “woke up” one day and decided to be a part of the LGBT community an ignoring the fact that for the majority of asexuals and aromantics, they found out about their orientation THROUGH the LGBT community. To most of us, it was already a part of it. To many of us, we didn’t choose to be a part of the LGBT community one day but already were a part of it. Our asexuality and aromanticism were shown to us as an LGBT+ identity and, as such, you telling us that it isn’t is the same to many of us as telling us that our asexuality doesn’t exist, or at the very least doesn’t matter. Which is why, in case you were wondering, everyone is fighting what you’re saying.
And to your numerous examples of, “why doesn’t the LGBT community let women and disabled people into the community since it’s obvious that they are oppressed to.” Well, for one, they are not oppressed or discriminated against for being outside of societal norms because of their sexuality or gender identity (yes, there is a difference between discrimination of women and discrimination of transgender people). And for two, those groups have their own resources. There are resources for women. There are resources for disabled people. There are specific shelters and charities for them. There are none for asexuals and aromantics, nor will there ever probably be from my experience with non-aces reactions to “Asexual Revolution” (if you don’t know, it’s them saying, “why would we need that” and “why would we care” and that’s not even resources, that’s just spreading the existence of asexuality and aromanticism to the public, they literally say that it doesn’t matter that ace and aro people find themselves).
But I guess if you just don’t want to listen, then I’m sorry that asexuality and aromanticism was not considered real and true orientations when the LGBT community was created, and as such, could not be a part of it on your eyes.
I’m against cishet asexual and aromantic people being in the community now, because as cis people who only experience hetero attraction, they are a part of the oppressive class that the lgbt community is trying to combat. I don’t think it’s fair to to expect sga and trans people to do emotional labor and give up resources for their oppressors.
Saying that I don’t think aces deserve resources is putting words in my mouth and I really do not appreciate that. They deserve resources. Part of the issue is that lgbt resources are scarce as it is. There are sga and trans people sleeping on the streets despite the presence of lgbt homeless shelters; trans people who are still struggling to afford hormones and surgery despite the presence of transition funds and sliding-scale clinics; sga and trans people who can’t find a lgbt-friendly therapist within driving distance.
I want to bring back my point that cishet disabled people and cishet women could also benefit from these resources—you pointed out that the disabled community and the feminist community already offer resources for them, so in theory, they should’t need ours. That is correct. But would you still hold that stance if those communities were were struggling to scrap together ways to help their members?
The thing about resources is that they don’t come out of thin air. Believe it or not, sga and trans people didn’t have anywhere to turn to at one point either. Neither did disabled people or cishet women. All of the resources that exist for the lgbt community, the disabled community, the feminist community, etc. only exist because the members of those communities put immense effort into creating them. That effort isn’t limited to time or money either; it includes emotional labor and even body counts. It is the responsibility of ace and aro people to create resources for their community. It’s not fair to take away resources from sga and trans people who need them and give them a group that partakes in their oppression and didn’t contribute to the building of those resources in the first place.
You are putting words in my mouth AGAIN by insisting that I’m in favor of aces dying, not to mention that this is a shit down and dirty guilt tripping tactic. Full stop. It’s especially ridiculous considering that I can take that same argument and turn it right around back on you: when a cishet ace person gets an lgbt resource, whether it be time with a counselor or a place at a homeless shelter, that means that there is an sga or trans person who did NOT get that resource. Multiply this and you’ve got several sga or trans people who now cannot access resources they otherwise would have had if they didn’t gone to a cishet ace or aro. Some of those sga and trans people might wind up dead due to not getting those resources. So by your own logic, you are “literally” saying that you want the sga and trans death count to rise. Sorry if I’m starting to get a little uncivil here, but trying to guilt me for prioritizing sga and trans people is manipulative and it is complete and utter bullshit.
And now you’re putting words in my mouth AGAIN. Where did I say that aces and aros can’t separate their identity from David Jay? By brining up the fact that his is cishet and homophobic and therefore did not have the authority to declare cishet aces, which you know, is kind of important to point out in this context since the history of the ace and lgbt communities is a huge part of what were talking about? Also bullshit I believe that the ace and aro communities could never distance themselves from him! They could do that by de-centering his ideas and discontinuing his misguided effort to shoehorn cishet aces and aros into the lgbt community. Stop! Putting! Words! In! My! Mouth! Btw, did you forget that I AM a trans sga aro? Sweet Moses.
Do you think that sga and trans people are unified 100% of the time? Were you not here for the whole “monosexual privilege” bs that was pretty much last year’s ace discourse? Have you never seen a TERF before? Saying that aces and aros are too ~different~ and are incapable of forming their own resources is an absolute SHIT excuse. Holy fuck. Pretty sure that sga and trans people had it harder in the 70′s and 80′s when the police were beating them in the streets and millions were dropping dead from AIDS. And yet, somehow, in the year 2016, there are now resources for sga and trans people created by sga and trans people. And with your hotline example, I don’t even see how merging the ace community with the lgbt community would solve that. If grey aces become a part of the lgbt community, so do hardline aces. Like, they don’t magically disappear? You could still get a hardline ace on the other end who doesn’t think grey aces are a thing even if it’s considered an “lgbt” hotline. You could also get someone who isn’t ace and has zero grasp on ace problems if it’s not specifically targeted towards aces, or you might get someone like me who doesn’t think cishet aces and aros are lgbt.
A lot of aces and aros found their identity through the lgbt community. Okay. I will partially concede that point. The “A is for Asexual” stuff that really popularized the idea that cishet aces and aros peaked around 2012 ish, so that’s true for a lot of younger aces and aros especially. So what happened between 2003-ish and now? If cishet aces aren’t lgbt, then why was this idea perpetrated for a decade before most of the backlash started?
Because fighting against that idea takes resources. Shock! Mostly time, to be specific. Back in the early 2000′s, the LGBT community had less resources than it did now, and one can even argue that it also had more problems to fight against since LGBT politics weren’t mainstream at the time, same-sex marriage was still illegal in the US and most western countries, and barely anyone knew trans people existed. The ace community’s demand for inclusion wasn’t having that big of an negative impact, so the LGBT community just ignored it and basically went “sure, whatever” not realizing what would happen in 2010 in beyond. They had more pressing matters to attend to. Social media was also pretty limited, so low-effort ways to combat cishet aces and aros trying to squeeze into the lgbt community were pratically non-existent.
To say that “well, aces and aros have been here for some time now!” is placing the blame on sga people for not having the resources to solve this problem when it arose. Blaming us for our own lack of privilege instead of saying that cishet aces and aros shouldn’t have used their power to invade our community in the first place. It’s a shitty argument and it borders on victim blaming.
not oppressed or discriminated against for being outside of societal norms because of their sexuality or gender identity
I’ll repeat part of my last paragraph from my original reply: the lgbt community was created to combat systematic homophobia and transphobia, not coddle anyone who gets shit for being outside of societal norms when it comes to their sexuality and gender identity. That opens up the flood gates to kinksters and furries. No thanks.
here is a difference between discrimination of women and discrimination of transgender people
This is extremely condescending thing to say to a trans person. Like, you really think I don’t understand the difference between misogyny and transphobia?
I’ll leave something here for you then: there is a difference between the discrimination of ace and aro people and the discrimination of sga and trans people. Good Day.
I’m sorry, but I’ve noticed a trend of yours: you keep insisting that cishet aro and aces are just swarming hotlines and homeless shelters in droves. Where does that even come from? Where are the insistences in which these occur? I have never once heard of that happening. You’re basing this entirely on the assumption that cishet aces and aros are trying to use LGBT hotlines and shelters, which if you consider them your oppressors and them as transphobic and homophobic individuals, I highly doubt they’re jumping at the chance of talking to LGBT hotlines and staying in shelters that are primarily sga and transgender people.
But I’m not being purposefully condescending, though it very much seems like you are doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of; the way I write can seem that way, but if I’m not straight up insulting you, then chances are I’m not trying to be mean. So, sorry if you think I am, but I can not change your perception of my writing. And I’m not meaning to put words in your mouth, either I thought you were the one who said it in another post to someone else as I’ve been trying to monitor every argument on this post or something you said made me think that was what you mean. Personally, I find it kind of hypocritical that you accuse me of trying to emotionally manipulate you when your argument stands entirely on, “letting cishet aro and aces into the community is taking resources away from sga and trans people” (which, again, I am confused by because I do not know of anything of the sort occurring).
And, yes, asexuals and aromantics can not form those resources. That is a fact. Do you know how many instances there were and are of websites and blogs being run by hard-line and antisexual aces that ridiculed and harassed other asexuals? That were established under the name of “helping” only to make matters worse. If there were asexuals and aromantics working with and in an already established LGBT hotline where a hardline ace couldn’t weasel in because there were other people that could tell that, hey, telling someone calling a suicide hotline that if they feel romantic attraction and arousal then they aren’t asexual is not a good idea, then we wouldn’t have that problem.
Why do you act like having asexuals and aromantics in the community is JUST a depletion of resources and not an ADDITION of resources? You’re adding manpower, adding people. I don’t understand why you think we’re just burdens that are here to suck the community dry instead of wanting it to succeed as well.
I really don’t get either why you keep insisting that if you let one group in, then what’s to stop adding other groups? But, I highly doubt that your hypothetical instance of women and disable people suddenly having a decrease in resources will ever happen. If anything, those kinds of services will only increase with time. And, really? Furries? They literally have their own community? A very large community that even hosts charities for other organizations. I…really don’ t know where you’re going with that. Frankly, it’s kinda of disrespectful and hurtful that you would liken letting aces and aros into the LGBT community to letting “kinkster” and sexually deviant people in. That’s…just not cool?
No one’s “blaming” the LGBT community for not having privilege? We’re just saying that kicking a group out, even if not everyone was on board with their emittance in the first place, because they weren’t there in the beginning is just kind of…a weak excuse? Saying that there is no room to expand and that you’d rather the LGBT community stay as it was in the beginning just doesn’t sit well in my mind.
I’m not “assuming” cishet aces and aros are taking resources. I’ve seen it with my own two eyes. I’ve seen my own university LGBT center deny funding for lesbian events and groups while hosting and promoting tons of events based around asexuality. I’ve read posts by fellow lesbians on tumblr about how their real life support groups have been overtaken by cishet asexuals who won’t allow them to talk about any issues pertaining to sex and always redirect the conversation to acephobia. I’ve seen lesbian post after lesbian post here on tumblr derailed by aces. I’ve had lesbian friends who lost scholarships to ace people, I’ve had gay male friends have their conversations about safe sex and AIDs shut down by aces. And let us not forget when the Student Union voted to abolish their gay male rep while adding an ace one. Which, you know, was publicized all over the ace discourse tag.
As for shelters and hotlines: I continued with that because that was the example that you picked out.
It’s not your “style” of writing. It’s the fact that you literally felt the need to tell me, a trans person who experiences misogyny, that transphobia and misogyny are different. That entire point was unnecessary. Also, there is a huge difference between stating facts (if cishet aces and aros get an lgbt resource, then that means that an sga or trans person did not get that resource x however many times it happens = sga and trans people are loosing resources they built for themselves) vs “you’re supporting x group’s deaths, it’s your fault they’re dying.” But sure, let’s water down the meaning of emotional manipulation and guilt-tripping to avoid owning up to what we said and accuse the other person of, just by the act of speaking out and explaining their side using facts to someone who asked in the first place, being a manipulator. Sure Jan.
You just repeated your point without addressing zero of the objections I raised to it. How do you think sga and trans people formed resources despite the fact that people who believe in monosexual privilege, or people who believe in straight-passing privilege, or sga people who are terfs, or trans people who are truscum and don’t believe in non-binary identities, exist? This is literally a problem that EVERY community faces. The hardline vs. grey issue is not unique at all to the ace community. This isn’t even unique to minority hotlines. The last time I called a general suicide hotline, I got an invalidating shithole who thought my depression wasn’t serious enough and told me to get over it. I didn’t bring up shit about being a lesbian, or trans, or disabled, or jewish either. I literally talked about my depression to a hotline that was suppose to be for depression and other mental illnesses that cause suicidal thoughts and got invalidated. It happens. To everyone. But guess what? If other communities can deal with the fact that they aren’t a hivemind and pull together resources, so can aces and aros. And BTW, lgbt hotlines aren’t magical places where assholes don’t manage to slip through. Not hotline is.
I’d also like to point out that places like AVEN (which has a very extensive wiki with information on asexuality and aromanticism) and tumblr blogs based around asexuality, especially those that answer questions and give advice (kind of like a support group would?! it’s almost like you could call them…online support groups…hmmm), are also resources. But I guess I must be hallucinating their existence if aces and aros are apparently incapable of forming any kind of resource for their own community.
You literally just said it yourself that aces and aros are incapable of forming resources—why are you suddenly changing your argument and saying that they’d add resources to the lgbt community? Why did all of these hardline aces that were blocking the way to ace resources magically become a non-issue? Do you think that sga and trans people have the power and knowledge to police that kind of shit? That it’s our responsibility to do so and not the responsibility of aces and aros?
I’ll emphasize again: the community is for fighting homophobia and transphobia. Cishet aces and aros are not trans. They do not experience homophobia. They’re is nothing they can add to the community that would accomplish those two goals that non ace and aro allies couldn’t. Sga and trans people have nothing to gain by letting in cishet aces and aros, and going back to my first paragraph, they have a lot to loose. I’m basing this on by own observations and how systems of power and privilege work.
You’re avoiding the question by pointing out that the situation is hypothetical, which is a huge coop-out, so I’ll ask again and maybe this time you’ll come up with an actual answer: would you still hold that stance if those communities were struggling to scrap together ways to help their members?
I brought up kinksters and furries because your definition of the lgbt community could easily be stretched to include them. It was not a comparison.
Your last paragraph is strawmaning by cutting off essential parts of the argument: cishet aces and aros hold power and privlege over sga and trans people and sga/trans people have nothing to gain from doing so, but a lot to loose, and that community took DECADES of hard work to create. Your insistence that sga and trans people should share their (very scarce) resources with a group that holds privilege over them and didn’t contribute to the building of those resources doesn’t sit right with me.
This will be my last reply. This entire conversation has taken a toll on me both physically and mentally. I’m not interested with continuing this argument given the direction that it’s going and I would appreciate it if you ceased interacting with me. Thank you.
Don’t worry, you don’t have to reply.
But! I’ve finally figured out why your posts piss me off in such a confusing way. You worry that allowing aces and aros into the LGBT+ community will mean they will receive the same things everyone else in the community gets. But you make it sound like asexuals and aromantics are these sneaky little things that are swooping down and robbing LGBT people blind and not just saying, hey, we’re a part of this community too so it’d be nice if we were, you know, more a part of it than just name. And to do this, you make them out to be villains that are snatching away LGBT chances to live yet all the examples from real life you provided are, “They’re too loud and think that being a part of the community means they need things from said community.” So glad you’ve put me back on the path of asexuals and aromantics belong in the LGBT with an even stronger belief.
So, what I’m getting is that your entire point of not allowing aces and aros into the LGBT community is because then they would steal resources. Which, from my understanding of how communities work, would just mean that if, hypothetically speaking, asexuals and aromantics were a part of the of the LGBT+ community they would not technically be stealing, they’d just be another group in the same community using resources for that group.
Your point of not allowing them into the community is that they would require the same things everyone else in the community has.
That’s…it. You don’t want aces and aros in the community because it’s too hard. That’s your reasoning. It’s too difficult so you just don’t want to integrate them into the LGBT community. The entire argument is that they shouldn’t be here because then they would have to be treated the same.
Fuck it, they’re just problems that can be fixed yet your treating like they’re unconquerable. Yeah, if there is a new part of the LGBT community, they’re going to need funding and yes that funding is going to come from somewhere but it’s not like trading one or two LGBT events for a Grey event is going to wipe out LGBT events completely. And if you feel like there are an excessive amount of asexual to lesbian events occurring, then go and fucking do something, go fucking talk to your LGBT center, but if your complaint is literally that asexual events are occurring where lesbian events could be, and not even outnumbering or taking over, then by fuck that’s low. If asexuals are taking over discussion, just remind them that it’s a LGBT discussion, not an asexual-only discussion. And if they don’t listen, kick them out just the same as I’d hope you do if another group tried to take over a discussion. Posts are derailed all the time. That’s not new nor is it surprising. That’s not a LGBT issue that’ll be fixed by kicking aces out of the community and you know it. And what do you MEAN they “lost scholarships”? You mean, you literally saw someone say, “we’re giving this scholarship to an ace rather than a lesbian”? Or what? I’m very confused as to how you know this. Also, are you really blaming asexuals for the Student Unions decision? I’m not saying that they should have disregarded cis gay white men but are you going to sit there and just blame it on us because we got a rep instead? That’s honestly shit.
Your arguments of: “They weren’t here!” “WE worked hard for this!” “They’ve done nothing!” keeps cycling back to the point you’ve repeatedly made of the grey community being “strong” of 10 years. 10 years. That’s how long we’ve practically existed. The ace discourse loves to use the fact that asexuals have no history, the denial of grey identities likes to use that asexuality and aromanticism boomed on the internet, practically all arguments against us is that we’re too young of a group to matter. So no, it’s not just hardline vs grey, it’s that we’re too young to get a footing, too young to form a community, too young to get over basic differences. We don’t have years of political strife to tie us to each other. It isn’t the fucking same. It’s not, “some sga don’t like trans people”, or “some trans people don’t like sga”, it’s “some asexuals hate other asexuals,” “some asexuals believe that only certain kinds of people can be asexual.” There isn’t enough asexuals to form a community where it’s as divided as the ace community is. For fucks sake, do you know how many discourse blogs I’ve seen make fun of that fact? That, “oh, the asexual community one minute can be all, ‘some aces have sex!’ then the next demonize sex!” Like, yes, because there are fucking huge ass rifs, but like you said, all communities are like that, but in the LGBT community, there is less discussion over who counts as trans and who counts as bi, because those arguments are for the transgender community and the bisexual community individually and away from the full LGBT community that focuses on the whole problem not the individual.
What do you want asexuals and aromantics to do? They can’t go back in time and form a community in the past so that they could be there for the formation of the LGBT community. You keep acting like history isn’t linear and that there isn’t time NOW for asexuals and aromantics to become a part of the community.
Through your entire posts, I’ve thought that you were just really good at arguing, but you’re not. You’re just good at making everything long and complicating but using simple words that people get the idea that you’re right because it’s so easy to miss all the ways you’re just grossly wrong with all your pretty paragraphs and strong statements where you make it seem like “well of course I’m right”.
But I should have seen the faults when you’re point is that you’ll have nothing to gain from aces and aros into the LGBT community, so just fuck them. They don’t deserve shit. They should have thought twice before they wanted representation without full consent from everyone .
I wasn’t going to respond to this mess but honestly i can’t help myself because i;m frankly pretty appalled at a) how dismissive you’ve been of the problems faced by lgbt people, and b) how condescending and at times manipulative you’ve been towards lazuii, which you apparently have no problem with and won’t even acknowledge
imma go thorough and maybe quote relevant parts of your posts bc there are a few points i want to make. i apologise in advance for any typos and such, i’m not well rn and i have a injured finger which makes it hard to type
first of all, i’d just like to say that people providing some sort of resource or service have every right to limit it to a certain group or groups of people, especially a group like lgbt people that is disadvantaged and may have specific needs. and while there are (sadly) generally more people in need than there are services to help them, that doesn’t mean you can simply demand help and resources that are being provided to someone else and are not for you. i say this as someone who is in a position where they require a lot of help and support from services similar to the ones that have been talked about in this discussion. there are times where, while looking for services, i’ve found something that looked like it could help me, but then realised it was targeted at a specific group of people i didn’t belong to. and i didn’t demand that these people help me anyway, i just acknowledged that it wasn’t for me, it was for others who had problems that were somewhat different to mine, and moved on. it sucks when a particular person or service or support group or whathaveyou isn’t able to help you specifically, but it IS possible for people, even in dire situations, to realise not everything revolves around them and to not demand access to services they aren’t entilted to.
“You worry that allowing aces and aros into the LGBT+ community will mean they will receive the same things everyone else in the community gets.”
this part is killin me, because in your ideal scenario, cishet aces and aros would receive everything that the lgbt community gets… except for all the homophobia and transphobia, which are the reasons lgbt specific services are necessary in the first place. has it ever occurred to you that maybe the reason asexual specific services like hotlines, shelters, etc., don’t exist is because ace and aro people simply do not face the same heightened rates of mental illness, homelessness, abuse etc. that lgbt people do? that nobody’s fighting the epidemic of young asexuals being forced out onto the street for their asexuality because that problem simply doesn’t exist? i’m not saying that asexual specific resources shouldn’t exist. more resources means more people getting helped. more resources are good. but maybe part of the reason asexuals don’t have the same kind of resources and organisations as lgbt people is because they’re a different group that has different problems.
also, i feel your insistence that ace and aro people simply can’t make their own resources because *mumble mumble internal division something mumble* not only doesn’t make sense (it’s already been pointed out that there’s plenty of internal division within the lgbt community, too, yet somehow we’ve managed to build resources for ourselves!), it’s honestly kind of offensive to ace and aro people themselves. like do you think all ace people are poor helpless babies with no skills and no abilities to build spaces and things of their own? what about the ace and aro people who literally HAVE done that? your narrative presents ace and aro people as powerless, helpless beings lacking in agency who can’t do anything for themselves and so need lgbt people to do it all for them. which is rude, quite frankly, and i don’t see how talking about ace and aro people in this way in any way constitutes advocacy on their behalf.
“Why do you act like having asexuals and aromantics in the community is JUST a depletion of resources and not an ADDITION of resources? You’re adding manpower, adding people. I don’t understand why you think we’re just burdens that are here to suck the community dry instead of wanting it to succeed as well.”
i’d like to address this specifically as well. having more people in a community (as much as all lgbt people everywhere can be described as a “community”, but i digress) doesn’t necessarily mean more resources. i’ll use myself as an example: i’m lgbt but can contribute essentially nothing to the community by way of resources because i’m disadvantaged in various ways and so simply not able to do so. assuming that more people = more resources is a simplistic and shortsighted way of looking at things.
“Fuck it, they’re just problems that can be fixed yet your treating like they’re unconquerable. Yeah, if there is a new part of the LGBT community, they’re going to need funding and yes that funding is going to come from somewhere but it’s not like trading one or two LGBT events for a Grey event is going to wipe out LGBT events completely”
we’re not just talking about events here. we’re talking about services and resources in general, some of which can literally mean the difference between life and death. between an lgbt person having to somewhere to stay or being out on the street. we’re not just talking about a situation where some lgbt people might not be able to throw a party, and for you to reduce it down to that is quite frankly dismissive of the very real and serious problems that lgbt people face. it’s also pretty hypocritical on your part. when lazuii says that cishet aces shouldn’t be using lgbt resources she’s a MONSTER who wants vulnerable people to DIE, but when you’re insisting that cishet aces should have access to those things (thereby taking resources away from lgbt people), it’s suddenly only a matter of who gets to throw the most parties. i mean you’ve pretty much admitted right here in this paragraph that including cishet asexuals in lgbt would take resources away from actual lgbt people. why don’t you cut it out with the cognitive dissonance and admit to yourself what that would actually look like. what it DOES look like. because this is a thing that actually happens.
“ And if you feel like there are an excessive amount of asexual to lesbian events occurring, then go and fucking do something, go fucking talk to your LGBT center, but if your complaint is literally that asexual events are occurring where lesbian events could be, and not even outnumbering or taking over, then by fuck that’s low”
it’s a bit rich for you to tell lazuii to go and “fucking do something” if she feels there’s not enough lesbian events when throughout this whole discussion you’ve been insisting that aces and aros simply can’t do things for themselves and need the lgbt people to do everything for them. if you want there to be more ace specific spaces and resources, why don’t you go out and “fucking do something”, as you so politely put it, instead of insisting that lgbt people do it all for you? why don’t ace and aro people as a whole go out and “fucking do something”? also, have you considered that some people are not in a position to do anything about cishet aces taking over lgbt spaces and resources? have you considered that maybe they already have tried to do something and been unsuccessful, because that often is the case when lgbt people try to confront or stand up to people who are privileged over them…?
also this: “ but if your complaint is literally that asexual events are occurring where lesbian events could be, and not even outnumbering or taking over, then by fuck that’s low” really? if there was an asexual event planned, and i took away your space and all your resources and etc and said, “sorry, your ace party is cancelled so i can throw an lgbt party, you can have an ace party some other time”, wouldn’t you be just a little upset? and you’d be right to be, because if i did do that it would be a dick move. you can’t take things away from people and justify it with, “well, you still have some OTHER things, so it’s okay for me to take this from you.” it doesn’t work that way.
“if asexuals are taking over discussion, just remind them that it’s a LGBT discussion, not an asexual-only discussion. And if they don’t listen, kick them out just the same as I’d hope you do if another group tried to take over a discussion.”
i literally have tried to do this, multiple times, and guess what, it didn’t work.
“And what do you MEAN they “lost scholarships”? You mean, you literally saw someone say, “we’re giving this scholarship to an ace rather than a lesbian”? Or what? I’m very confused as to how you know this.”
she literally said it was friends of hers who lost scholarships like… i’d assume she knows this from talking to her friends????? ???? ? ??? ??
“Also, are you really blaming asexuals for the Student Unions decision? I’m not saying that they should have disregarded cis gay white men but are you going to sit there and just blame it on us because we got a rep instead? That’s honestly shit.”
i don’t much about this particular situation but… i’m pretty sure this isn’t a thing that would have happened if it hadn’t been for all the people who insist that cishets aces are lgbt too and just as oppressed as trans and sga people. like.
“It’s not, “some sga don’t like trans people”, or “some trans people don’t like sga”, it’s “some asexuals hate other asexuals,” “some asexuals believe that only certain kinds of people can be asexual.” “
“Like, yes, because there are fucking huge ass rifs, but like you said, all communities are like that, but in the LGBT community, there is less discussion over who counts as trans and who counts as bi, because those arguments are for the transgender community and the bisexual community individually and away from the full LGBT community that focuses on the whole problem not the individual.”
this is just plain… not true. like, if you thing that differences within the lgbt community are just people “not liking” each other, then you’ve been living with your head in the sand.
for example, a remember a news story some time ago in my country about a trans guy getting beaten for trying to use the bathroom in an lgbt club. is that people just not liking each other? and what about the hatred perpetuated by terfs against trans women? is that just people not liking each other?
the fact that you think people not accepting demis and greys as real asexuals is somehow worse than this is just wrong. like, i don’t know what else to say about it. you are wrong.
“What do you want asexuals and aromantics to do? They can’t go back in time and form a community in the past so that they could be there for the formation of the LGBT community. You keep acting like history isn’t linear and that there isn’t time NOW for asexuals and aromantics to become a part of the community.”
i think it’s been pretty obvious from the start of this discussion what people want aces and aros to do. they want them to build their own resources instead of taking lgbt resources they’re not entitled to. that’s it.
bless you for calling this person out on their shit ^
and op, for the scholarship thing. i’ll assume that you’re ~genuinely~ confused and not low-key trying to discredit me by implying that I’m lying: my friends TOLD me they applied + scholarship winners are usually announced publicly, with information about them that is relevant to the scholarship. i would know, i’ve won a small scholarship myself (not lgbt related fyi) and i was one of the last people to find out about it because i lived under a rock in high school and didn’t have a fucking facebook. also:
Through your entire posts, I’ve thought that you were just really good at arguing, but you’re not. You’re just good at making everything long and complicating but using simple words that people get the idea that you’re right because it’s so easy to miss all the ways you’re just grossly wrong with all your pretty paragraphs and strong statements where you make it seem like “well of course I’m right”.
Funny how you say that I’m the one who’s bad at arguing, when you’re the one who’s been dodging questions (still wait’n to know your answer about cishet women, or why hardline aces magically disappear if aces become lgbt, or how AVEN or asexuality advice blogs exist if the ace community is incapable of helping itself), repeating points that have already been torn down, and relying on manipulation instead of letting your points speak for themselves.
Several people in the tags have commented on how simple and easy to understand my points were, and someone has even messaged me personally to tell me about how well I explained everything (check my #ask tag). Just because YOU suck at refuting and can’t find a way to counter my arguments without showing your hypocrisy doesn’t make it “complicated.” Backing up my position with historical fact and logical reasoning doesn’t make it “complicated”.
“Pretty paragraphs, strong statements, and ~i’m right~” really? You realize that’s how a debate WORKS right? This + trying to call the very act of me debating you “emotionally manipulative” is just silencing tactic. You’re trying to make me feel guilty so I’ll just shut up because if I keep going people might notice that you’re dodging half my arguments and strawmaning the rest, not to mention your blatant entitlement (which becomes more painfully obvious with each of your replies). Seriously, do you go around yelling at homeless people on the streets for not donating what little money they have to causes that would in no way benefit them but benefit you?