Introduction:
Contrary to what you might think, bars and clubs are not the best places to meet women. In fact, they’re probably the worst possible place you can imagine.
Instead, you should make your dating life an extension of your social life. We’ll tell you exactly what this means and how to do it, giving you specific examples of things you should try so you can expand your social life and meet plenty of great women without ever having to talk to a stranger in a bar. Most importantly, we’ll explain to you how to think about finding activities, so that you don’t just have to repeat our suggestions, but can think of your own.
Podcast:
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Key takeaways:
Bars and clubs are not the best places for most guys to meet women. You’re meeting people you have nothing in common with, you’re drunk, it’s loud, the women are cautious of going home with strange guys, and the guys are afraid of rejection and humiliation. It’s horrible.
This is actually the reason that assholes can do well in bars – because they’re not afraid to go up and talk to the hot woman like a normal person, without being shy or defensive. But if that’s not you, and you don’t do well in a bar situation, then that’s totally fine. You can do great with women without ever having to pick up a girl in a bar.
Instead, what you should do is make a big list of things that you like doing, and then find a way to meet women by doing that thing. Make your dating life an extension of your social life.
The reason that joining social groups like CrossFit, or volunteering, is so powerful is that it instantly creates a tribe of people that you’re a part of, and so the other women there are less afraid, less likely to perceive you as creepy or a threat, because you’re accountable to the group, and you’re less anxious because there’s a lot less risk of humiliation – now you have a reason to talk to her. You have common ground.
By joining different groups, you’ll a) meet women through those activities that might be interested in you, or b) you’ll make female friends, who have other female friends that they’ll introduce you to.
Firstly, CrossFit is full of great women who are in great shape – and you’ll meet women while getting in shape yourself. Shop around for different CrossFit boxes to find one with good instructors and lots of women. In fact, any kind of intramural sports is good.
Conferences are a great place to meet women. You have a shared interest, shared values, both she and you have the opportunity to display attractive traits, you’ll likely have some common friends, and conferences tend to be multi-day events so you get to build a relationship with a woman over the course of a few different interactions. These can be professional events or something like Comic-Con where it’s a conference based on a shared interest.
Volunteering tends to be overwhelmingly female. Pick a cause that you’re interested in, and find out how to volunteer doing that. You’ll be one of very few guys, and you display traits like conscientiousness, you become part of a tribe, you have shared interests, etc. When you meet a woman volunteering she’s likely a caring and sweet person.
Political and religious groups are also useful. If you’re religious and looking for long-term partners, then get involved in all the different events that your church puts on – big churches tend to do this more than smaller churches.
Next is improvisational comedy classes. These again tend to have more women than men, and you can not only meet women but you also learn how to talk to people, how to be funny and how to be spontaneous in the moment.
Another fitness suggestion: Tough Mudder or Spartan Race-type events tend to have a lot of women, all of whom are fun and in good shape, and there’s always some sort of party afterwards. And already you have something in common that you can easily talk to them about.
If you’re in any kind of big city then the university there will have continuing education classes that you can go to where you can meet women learning the same sort of skill as you. Something like a first aid class, a cooking class, a psychology class, whatever. A good class to take is wine tasting. Women love wine, and even having a little bit of knowledge about wine is really powerful, since most guys don’t have a clue.
If you meet older women through these classes, that’s good as well. If she’s a few years older than you then great, go for it. If the women are way older, then you can still practice talking to them in a completely non-sexual, low stress way, and if you’re cool and a nice guy, they might introduce you to other women they know that are right for you.
Links from this episode
Find a CrossFit gym near you – there are over 6000 in North America. It really does turn sevens into tens.
If you’re into that sort of thing, check out Comic-con
.
Austin Pets Alive, where there are no single men.
Here’s a good place to start if you want to volunteer.
Political campaigns or events lead to a lot of romances, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Here is a list of Tough Mudder and Spartan Race events
.
Women are always interested in psychology – try reading Psychology Today magazine
.
Podcast Audio Transcription:
Tucker:
Alright. So, on this episode of The Mating Grounds podcast, we are gonna talk about where to meet women. So, we already did online dating – or that’s the next episode, one or the other. This episode is gonna be meeting women in real life, okay? Now, here’s the first thing that Dr. Miller and I are gonna tell you, and I know it’s gonna sound weird because you’ve heard the opposite your whole life, but listen to us. Bars and clubs are probably the worst places for most guys to find and meet new women that they do not know. I know your entire life, you’re taught bar pickup scene, right? In fact, if you’ve read my books, you’d think that’s all I’ve ever done. And I kind of have. I am not the example that you should be looking at, okay? I’m extremely outgoing, extremely gregarious. I have very high risk tolerance, etc. I’m the perfect type of person who really thrives in bar environments, ‘cause I’m very outgoing, very funny, a lot of verbal courtship ability. Here’s the reality, though: most guys are either…I bet a third to a half of guys are introverted, and if you’re not introverted, you’re at least not an extrovert. Extroverts are…not super rare, but they’re only about 20-30% of guys, and verbal courtship, being good with words is not common for guys. Being funny in the moment with people you don’t know is not common. This is hard, right? Also, let’s think about how bars and clubs work. Here’s why they’re the worst place on Earth for you to meet women. Actually, Dr. Miller, why don’t you explain? What is a woman’s deepest, unconscious biological fear?
Geoff:
Well, she’s worried – as we’ve emphasized again and again – worried about sexual coercion, stalking, harassment, rape, having her power of female choice undermined, and then physical damage like being beaten up or murdered or whatever. And she’s also worried about emotional damage, heartbreak, and then social reputational damage.
Tucker:
Right. Those are the secondary, though. When she meets a new guy, what’s the first thing in her deep, mammalian brain, every woman is thinking?
Geoff:
“Is he gonna be a creepy weirdo who tries to rape me?”
Tucker:
Okay. Or—
Geoff:
“Or hurt me.”
Tucker:
In some way.
Geoff:
We differ about this. I’m more on the—
Tucker:
Right. Well, ‘cause you’re thinking more on a biological sort of perspective. I’m thinking more actual social interactions, right? But the underlying assumption is the same, guys. And we’ve talked about this over and over. And by the way, a bunch of women – I didn’t realize this – listen to our podcast and they’ve all written in and they’re like, “Yeah. We’re totally afraid of all guys on a deep, underlying, unconscious way, and no guy ever understands that this is a big part of our experience.” So, on one side of the bar, you have the women who, even if they’re not afraid-afraid – I’m not saying they’re all a bunch of cowards, it’s not like that at all – but this is a legitimate thing. Guys are bigger than they are. They are strangers. They don’t know them. So, they’re afraid of some sort of physical assault, right? Now, on the other side of the bar, you have the guys. What are guys’ deepest fears?
Geoff:
Sexual humiliation and rejection.
Tucker:
Where does that come from? Guys, you’re gonna think it’s society. It’s actually not.
Geoff:
Well, it’s the primordial expectation that, “Oh, I’m in a tribe and everybody who matters to me can see what I’m doing, and if a woman in the tribe rejects me, then that reduces my status and my reputation and it’ll have consequences.” So, guys worry, even in modern society, even among strangers, that that’s gonna happen, that that’s gonna be a cost of getting rejected.
Tucker:
Are there any examples in prehistory or even history where men would have evolved the ability or skills to interact with women they don’t know? Not in a sort of…like, we’re stealing a woman from another tribe or something awful like that, right? Something where there wasn’t violence. Where a guy and a girl who didn’t know each other and didn’t know anything about each other interacted?
Geoff:
It was just really rare. It might have happened once in a while, but with extreme caution and defensiveness and anxiety on both sides.
Tucker:
So, there’s basically nothing in our minds that have evolved to deal with that sort of situation.
Geoff:
Only in the last few thousand years would we have started to evolve kind of amazing new traits, like some of us evolved to be extroverts. But if you look at hunter-gatherers, it’s kind of surprising. There were really very few extroverts, ‘cause they don’t need to be because what’s the key social and mating advantage of extroverts? They go up to strangers and talk to them. If you never meet strangers, you don’t get that benefit, so there’s no reason to evolve extroversion until the last few thousand years with high population densities.
Tucker:
Exactly. So, guys, here’s why so many of you guys get so anxious when you think about meeting new women. It’s because you picture yourself in a bar, having to approach a woman that you don’t know. She’s anxious – and you can pick this up unconsciously, even if you don’t realize it consciously – she’s anxious about you being a potential criminal, or whatever, assault perpetrator. Again, unconsciously. Even if you’re the nicest guy on Earth, it doesn’t matter. You’re still a stranger to her. And you’re anxious that she’s gonna reject you and socially humiliate you, even though on a sort of rational, conscious level, you know it doesn’t matter at all? Guys, you all know, rationally, if a woman doesn’t like you, it’s no big deal. But it still creates an emotional response in you, right? This is where it comes from.
Geoff:
Yeah. Approach anxiety is not a sign that you’re a deficient male. On the contrary, it’s a sign that your male brain is working adaptively and properly, and the implication is prehistoric males who did not have approach anxiety died out. They were called out of the species because it had such massive social costs being rejected all the time by women in the tribe that the other guys just beat them up, ostracized them, killed them.
Tucker:
Or the women did!
Geoff:
Or the women did, yeah.
Tucker:
Women ostracized them.
Geoff:
That’s why we have approach anxiety. Don’t beat yourself up about it.
Tucker:
Right. Which actually kind of brings up a point we’ve talked about before in some other podcasts. One of the critical mistakes that pickup artists make is that the only arena they really talk about for the most part are bars and clubs, right? The way that they structure their material is like, “Oh, here’s how you get over your anxiety. You just approach everybody!” And it’s like…no. That’s cripplingly terrible. Listen, that can work for some guys, no doubt. Okay, fine. But that’s sort of like…I can make food by cramming everything in my refrigerator in my oven and turning it on full-blast. It doesn’t mean that’s something you wanna eat. You know? This is not the solution. You feel awful in that situation because your body has evolved to feel awful. Women feel awful in that situation for the same reason. That’s why women basically always go out in groups. Always. And dudes, too. Not just because you wanna have friends and it’s fun, but also because you feel like a fucking weirdo alone in a bar, and you should. Women feel unsafe. Men feel humiliated and socially exposed. So, let’s talk about what this means. Actually, one of the social implications we should talk about – ‘cause it’s not just pickup artists. I mean, culture says this a lot, right? Pickup artists are just responding to culture, to give them a little bit of credit. I think what this means is we have a culture that has, for forty years, told men and women that they should be meeting in this place that makes both of them feel awful. It’s literally almost the worst…I don’t know what would be worse. Like, a prison or something. Actually, no, ‘cause then you know who people are. This is almost the exact worst designed way for young people to meet. Am I right?
Geoff:
Yeah. And it’s also very alcohol-centered, so if you know how to drink just the right amount to be just optimally extroverted, then maybe it’ll work. But bear in mind, the women are surrounded by drunken fools, right? So, their defenses are up because not only are they with strange men, they’re with strange men who are disinhibited, right?
Tucker:
Right. I didn’t even think about that.
Geoff:
Which is, like…their worst nightmare. Being surrounded by strange men with no prefrontal cortex inhibiting their sexual desires or approaches.
Tucker:
At least some of the guys. Most guys are fine, but right. There’s always a few guys either…they have to many to drink and it’s like, “Hey, baby. Why don’t you…” Whatever, and it’s like, “Ugh. Get away from me.”
Geoff:
And those are the guys that are salient to the women and that they remember.
Tucker:
Well, okay. Let’s actually bring up a good point. A lot of guys are like, “Why do boorish assholes do so well?” They see boorish assholes doing well. Do you wanna know why, guys? Because they’re the only ones with the courage to go up and talk to women in bars. Guys, do you wanna know why I fucked so many more women than you and most guys? Because I actually thrived in a bar environment, ‘cause I’m very outgoing. I’m not even that charismatic, to be honest. I’m just very extroverted. I can’t tell you how many hot girls I got because I was the dude who not only went up and talked to them, but wasn’t afraid and wasn’t defensive. Which, by the way, is what most guys do. They’ll go up and talk to a girl, but they’ll be very defensive. “Oh, hey…” They’ll do some stupid shit, some ridiculous thing that unconsciously, in their mind, is about reducing their approach anxiety or defending them against a rejection. They’ll either insult her or they’ll just come up really weird and slow. Almost like a predator and creepy. They’ll do something like that. I just walk up to women and start talking to them like a normal person, right? So, we’re gonna have a whole separate podcast where we talk about what to do in bars and clubs, because that is a very specific type of environment and there are a lot of best practices that we’re gonna talk about. We’re not gonna talk about bars and clubs in this podcast. I’m really good in that environment and I’ll walk you through exactly how to do it if you’re good in that environment. But before we do that, I wanna tell the 70% of our listeners or more who don’t like those environments, who have failed in those environments, that you’re not wrong. You’re right. It’s okay to feel that way, and there is another option for you.
Geoff:
Yeah. So, the key point is if you’re unusually extroverted and you have very low anxiety and high tolerance for risk and you don’t mind being socially rejected, fine. Go to bars and clubs. But if you’re statistically normal, like 80-90% of guys, don’t take mating advice from anybody who basically offers you some product that says “to be successful with women, you have to change your fundamental personality traits so that you can become a completely different person who has the right personality, the Tucker Max personality, to do well in bars and clubs.” That just doesn’t work and it’s stupid and it’s counter-productive.
Tucker:
Exactly. So, now, imagine instead of a bar and club where everyone’s anxious and drinking to try and relieve the anxiety, imagine a different situation. Imagine a situation where all of you – maybe you don’t know each other, but there’s men and women who are all there for a specific purpose, right? Now, let’s say you’re volunteering to clean up a park, right? What happens – literally, the way it codes in the human mind – is you are all now part of the same tribe, right? So, now, if you show up to this volunteer event and there’s twenty of you, ten men and ten women, and there’s one volunteer coordinator, whatever, and they do the little intro: “Hey, everyone. We’ll go around and say everyone’s name and blah blah blah. We’re gonna clean up this park for two hours and then we’re gonna have a lunch,” right? Immediately, the way the human brain works – literally, I’m not exaggerating much at all – is that you immediately become part of the tribe and you think of those twenty people as your in-group and everyone else, for that hour, sort of as your out-group, right? Like, the people walking down the street. They’re not cleaning the park like me, right? So, now, imagine meeting one of those ten girls. Now everything changes. She’s not afraid of you anymore. I mean, granted, she doesn’t know you, so there’s still a little bit of a risk in her mind of a physical issue, but the fear has gone from high fear to very low fear, right? Because you’re in a group and now you’re accountable to the group. And I’m not talking about rationally or logically. I’m talking about the way the human mind works, okay? So, she’s not afraid of you anymore. Also, you have no risk of humiliation anymore because now you have a reason to talk to her. Why? ‘Cause you’re in the same tribe! And three, there’s a million ways for you to display attractive traits to her. You’re conscientious – well, first off, you believe the same things she believes, which is always attractive. You can be conscientious. Whatever makes sense with the group you’ve joined, right?
Geoff:
Yeah. This is basic social psychology. We code almost everybody we meet as either in-group – they’re in my tribe – or out-group – they’re not in my tribe. They’re not trustworthy. They’re strangers. How do you get an in-group mentality with somebody? You do some collective action together, some shared goal, or you self-select based on values. Like, it’s a political group, a religious group, a church, whatever. Shared interests or you wanna learn the same knowledge or skills together. Any of those provide that sense of common purpose, common values and interests that automatically codes you as in-group. And this is not about manipulating her psychology. It’s about discovering a valid reason why you have something in common with her other than you happened to stumble into the same bar together.
Tucker:
We’re gonna have a separate podcast about conversation. One of the experts we’re gonna bring on and interview later on – not today, but in the podcast – is the guy who basically wrote the manual for the FBI on how to talk to people. He basically just popularized all the research, but rule number one in any conversation is find common ground. Why do you think when you meet someone new, it’s almost a cliché to talk about the weather or talk about sports teams? Because weather affects everybody, right? Same way. Sports, same way. That’s exactly what Dr. Miller is saying. You’re not manipulating. You are not manipulating a woman. You are engineering situations to reduce her anxiety and your anxiety so you can talk to each other in a low-threat state and find out if you should be pursuing anything else. It’s super good for you, super good for her. So, here’s the big takeaway, guys. For most of you, you are not meeting women ‘cause you are not going to the right places and thinking about meeting women in the right way. Most guys should be doing two things – online dating and social groups. That’s what this podcast is about. How do I join or integrate into social groups that can then allow me to meet women in a natural, stress-free, and positive way? Okay? So, here’s the basic takeaway. This is gonna be the basic rule and then we’re gonna get into very specific groups that you should be joining. Figure out, what do I like doing? Make a list of the twenty or fifty things, whatever, that you really like doing, and then think what of those things can I do in a group with girls? And then go join those groups and do those things. In that process, you will do two things. You will meet women directly through those activities and you can talk to them and then, if they’re into you, you can start some sort of relationship, whether a friendship or a mating relationship, right? Oh, and by the way, don’t get pissed off when I say friendship. Why? Because females have female friends, and if you are awesome and she likes you but doesn’t like you romantically, she can introduce you to her female friends.
Geoff:
One of the biggest favors a woman can do to a female friend is introduce them to a great guy.
Tucker:
Yes. And the hottest girls ever always…almost as a general rule, the hottest girls I’ve met have at least five or six friends who are not hot and have no luck with guys and always wanna meet guys, right? So even if, in your mind, you’re totally pathetic and no girls wanna meet you, which you probably aren’t, but whatever. Even if that’s who you think you are, being friends with a super hot girl is gonna be great. If you’re a good dude, she’s gonna have friends that she’ll introduce you to most of the time. Let’s get into really granular specifics. Let me go through my list and then let’s you go through your list. We have specific lists. So, what we’re gonna do is – or we’ll go back and forth. We’re gonna tell you very specific activities that we have done in our lives that have really been great in terms of they were rewarding to us as activities and we met women through them. Now, do not sit here and say our list is gospel because it is not. Our lists worked for us. They may work for you, or maybe you’re a person who’s totally different than either of us and you have different interests, so you should do different activities. You’ve gotta think a little bit, guys. You gotta hold your own dick when you piss, okay? I can’t do it for you. I’m just gonna give you ideas. Dr. Miller, too. So, I’m gonna start with how I met my current girlfriend, which was CrossFit. CrossFit kills, really, three birds with one stone. You’re gonna get in great shape; you’re gonna learn how to interact with people if that’s something you need practice on, ‘cause you work out in a group. Almost always great people. There are very few people who do CrossFit who are shit birds. Very few. And then, by the way, there’s some really fucking hot girls who do CrossFit. Really hot. Some of the hottest women I know – in fact, most of them now, CrossFit’s become a huge thing with young women. One of the slogans or unofficial mottos of CrossFit is – and women say this, not actually guys – “Turning sevens into tens.” So, even girls who maybe aren’t the most physically attractive become far more physically attractive after six months in CrossFit, ‘cause now they’re in amazing shape! They look amazing, and by the way, they’re also active. They do cool shit. It’s hard to do CrossFit and not kind of be a cool person, right?
Geoff:
I mean, fit is the new skinny, as they say, and the key thing about CrossFit is you can’t be intimidated by women who have a little bit of muscle on them.
Tucker:
I think it’s sexy.
Geoff:
I think it’s awesome. So, you have to let go of kind of your media programming that says anorexic runway models are hot or doughy porno actresses are hot. No. You have to rediscover your kind of primal attraction to women who are capable and can do things with their bodies.
Tucker:
In my opinion, it’s very sexy. But it’s not like every woman who does CrossFit is some amazing Amazon. Lots of normal women do CrossFit. In fact, most of them are normal. You’re gonna meet a ton of women doing CrossFit – and in fact, if you’re like, “Alright. I need to get in shape. I’m gonna do this,” I would actually shop for different…they call them boxes, whatever, which is a very sexual term, actually, if you think about it, which I just thought about. I would shop around. Not only to a box that has a good instructor, but what class has the most women? It’s totally cool to do that, guys. It’s not creepy. ‘Cause you’re gonna go and you’re gonna work out. You’re gonna meet them, whatever. By the way, a lot of the women, when you show up, will be stronger than you. They will be more fit than you. Don’t think that this is a bad thing. They’re not gonna judge you. They’re not gonna look down on you. They’re not gonna shame you. In fact, they’re gonna think it’s really fucking cool that you have the courage and the fortitude to show up and put in the work and they’re gonna root for you. That is the whole ethic of CrossFit, is that everyone’s behind everyone else and everyone’s helping everyone else. I’ve never seen a group of people who are more helpful to each other than CrossFitters. Go watch the CrossFit Games on ESPN! This is, like, the national championships of CrossFit. Like, the winner gets $300k. The dude who finishes first – in the middle of the fucking competitions – the men and women who finish first go back and cheer on their competitors! You don’t see this shit in baseball! Right? I can’t think of an activity that’s better for guys. And, by the way, most CrossFit is mostly women. I was at regionals in San Antonio this year, and it was like…I was looking around and I was like, my god, why didn’t I discover this sooner?
Geoff:
More generally, any kind of club sports, intramural sports in college…Just anything that’s mixed sex athletic activities.
Tucker:
Yes. Because, generally speaking, you’re gonna be better at sports than the girl is. That’s gonna be attractive to her. It’s cool. And if you’re not, no big deal. Some women are better at sports than you are. It’s not the end of the world. Be like, “Oh, yeah. That’s cool. You’re really good.” I mean, my girlfriend’s better at CrossFit than I am. I’m physically stronger than she is, but women have scaled weights so they lift a little bit less. On scaled weights, she beats me in a lot of exercises. It doesn’t bother me! I think it’s actually fucking cool. She’s in really good shape.
Geoff:
Yeah. Also with sports, on advantage is…Okay, why do people go to bars to meet people? ‘Cause they can drink and that kind of disinhibits them a little bit. Well, actually, exercise has almost exactly the same disinhibiting effect. If you’re frightened to meet a woman before you work out, if you do an intense 45-minute workout, your prefrontal cortex and all your inhibitions and anxieties, that’s not gonna be at the forefront of your mind and you’ll end up being able to talk to women as if you’d had two or three drinks, but it’s a hell of a lot healthier.
Tucker:
Exactly. So, alright. What’s one of the big things you think, for you? What’s worked for you in the past? You just got done talking about conferences. You wanna talk about those?
Geoff:
Yeah. I mean, I’ve had dozens of girlfriends. I’ve met exactly zero of them ever in bars or clubs, and most of them, I’ve met either in school or at conferences or somehow, some professional group. Usually, it’s not somebody exactly in the area that I’m working in, but I’ll go a little bit outside my specific profession or my school and I’ll enter into a new social context, but one that’s structured, like a conference, an event, consulting for a company, giving a talk.
Tucker:
Let’s talk about conferences. Conferences are really good. So, you go to a ton of conferences, and obviously, you’re a very famous, very well-respected researcher, so you’re talking a lot, right? So, that puts you in a great position. But just conferences overall, I think, are a great place to meet women, right? Because first off, you’re part of a tribe now. Everyone’s interested in the thing the conference is about, right? You have a reason to talk to people, a reason to approach them. You’re sort of “on vacation”, so you feel a lot looser. The status hierarchy is very fluid. What other things do you think are really good about conferences?
Geoff:
Well, they usually happen in hotels, so there’s an easy transition from conference event to your bedroom. They’re usually multi-day events, so that you see people repeated times over the course of a couple days, and they get a sense of safety and familiarity. You can talk to them multiple times. Just in passing, in the elevator, meeting them. You’re literally wearing a nametag, so it’s easy to meet them. As you said, you have shared interests, values, goals. You want to learn the same stuff. You have overlapping social circles. You probably know some of the same people. And often, either you or she or both of you are literally giving talks or presenting posters or doing something where you can assess her in terms of her intelligence and all of that, and she can assess you, and then you automatically have a lot of common ground to talk about. So, it’s almost an effortless way to meet people. I know not all young guys are in careers or situations where they can go to exactly that type of conference, but there’s a lot of events of that sort that have a very similar structure.
Tucker:
You know how much awkward, fumbling nerd sex happens at Comic-Con?
Geoff:
Exactly! Comic-Con’s a great example.
Tucker:
That’s a conference! Comic-Con is a conference, right? That’s why cosplay developed, I think, is so nerds could hide behind a mask and meet each other, like the really socially awkward types. I don’t say nerds disparagingly. I mean, like, people who have a lot of problems interacting socially. Maybe nerd’s not the right description, but—
Geoff:
Whatever works. If you wanna dress up in a fur suit to meet people, good for you.
Tucker:
I mean, I’m gonna laugh at you. It’s gonna be a little bit ridiculous. But if you like it and it makes you happy, fuck it. Do it, man. To hell with what other people think. If you’re not hurting anyone else and you’re meeting people like you that you interact with, whatever. Fuck those other people. You should totally do that. Alright, so the next thing I would talk about…this thing should actually probably go with, if my only goal was meeting lots of women, this would be number one. My goal more recently was meeting a certain type of woman, which is why I love CrossFit, but meeting lots of different women. I cannot emphasize how important it is to volunteer. Volunteering for charities or social causes, especially ones you like – don’t pretend you’re into crack babies if you’re not or whatever. Pick something you care about and then go volunteer. I don’t know of many volunteering things that are not overwhelmingly female. In fact, I’ve never heard of one, actually. So, I could be wrong. I’ve literally never heard of a volunteer organization that wasn’t like, “We’re desperate for more guys. We have plenty of women,” or, “We’ll take more people, but we’d love to have more guys.” So, I’ll tell you, me specifically. I live in Austin, Texas. I volunteer at Austin Pets Alive all the time. I didn’t really volunteer. I just cut them a big check because my time’s too valuable and I don’t need to meet women this way anymore, but what I basically do is I tell all my friends – young guys, especially. Go volunteer at APA. Every single one that I’ve told that has come back to me in, like, two months and had a girlfriend. I mean, it’s almost like a joke at APA, there are no single male volunteers at APA. Even if you come in single, you have a girlfriend super fast. It’s about 80/20, women to men. I would say at least half those women are beautiful and the other half are at least pretty decent looking and cool. All of them are cool. And by the way, if you like dogs, they all love dogs, too, and it’s really cool ‘cause you get to work with dogs. Oh, my goodness. I cannot tell you how amazing APA events are for dudes, for young guys full of women who love dogs and love any dude who loves dogs and you’re immediately part of the tribe, and it’s like…it doesn’t matter who you are. You’re gonna find a woman who likes you at APA.
Geoff:
Yeah. And you tend to meet women with big hearts whereas at bars, you tend to meet women who are alcoholics, right? So, think about what’s being screened for in the places you go to meet women.
Tucker:
Yep. Alright, so is there another thing that you’ve used, group-wise, that really helps you?
Geoff:
I think political and religious groups would be really useful for a lot of guys. People are passionate about their political beliefs, it doesn’t matter where you are on the political spectrum. If you do political volunteering for democrats, republicans, whatever. A libertarian like me is a little bit handicapped by the fact that—
Tucker:
There are no libertarian groups.
Geoff:
Maybe 75% of libertarians are male, right? So it’s an adverse sex-ratio, and there aren’t that many of us. The ones that there are, like libertarian women, are really pretty cool.
Tucker:
Almost all my friends who volunteered for Obama were like, “Dude, there were so many girls there.”
Geoff:
Yeah. The Obama campaign in particular was probably America’s best mating market in the last ten years.
Tucker:
For young guys.
Geoff:
For guys. Republicans, it’s a little different, ‘cause on average, there’s not…
Tucker:
Extreme republican chicks tend to be crazy. What’s the fucking…I washed her name out of my head ‘cause she’s so awful. Ann…Ann Coulter. The worst.
Geoff:
And Bachmann.
Tucker:
Oh, Bachmann! God. Those are, like…look, I’m being a little bit ridiculous, but in my mind – and I’m not even a democrat! I hate both parties. Those two seem like the iconic republican chicks – or women, are Ann Coulter and Michelle Bachmann. Look, I’m sure I’m totally wrong and there’s probably a lot of dudes who are like, “You’re way off base.” But it’s mostly men in republican-type stuff, right?
Geoff:
Yeah.
Tucker:
Not mostly, but it’s 60/40, guys to girls.
Geoff:
Right. This is also important to realize, that the Democratic Party is mostly women. The Republican Party is mostly men. There’s a big sex difference. There’s also a difference in mating strategies, right? Democrats tend, on average, political liberals in general, to be into short-term mating. Republicans are a little more into long-term dating. You can tell this by literally looking at their party platforms and what their sexual politics are. So, if you’re more into long-term mating, go to conservative events.
Tucker:
Right. If you’re looking for a girlfriend and you want…like, “I’m a Christian.” That’s totally fine. No problem. You’re gonna do great at those events.
Geoff:
Yeah. And also, religion. I’m an atheist. Tucker’s an atheist. I wouldn’t go to church to meet a woman myself, but most American guys believe in God, have a religion, and probably don’t go to church, particularly if they’re young men. Well, if you wanna meet women who are interested in anything other than one-night stands, church is a great place to meet women. Not so much sitting passively in the pew on Sunday morning, but the events, the activities the volunteering, whatever. The Wednesday evening Bible study groups. That kind of stuff.
Tucker:
Yeah. So, especially in southern states and a lot of Midwestern states, there are a lot of these mega-churches, right? Like Joel Osteen has a big one in Houston. Those mega-churches tend to have a lot of social activities for young people. So, if that’s what you’re into, again, I don’t necessarily agree with you, but who cares what I think? This is your life. Not mine. And you should absolutely go to those events ‘cause you will meet people who are like you, and that’s fantastic. That’s the whole point of this fucking podcast, is to help you pair up with women who want the same things you want so you guys can have a great relationship, short, medium, or long, and if you’re into that? If you really want a wife or a long-term girlfriend and that’s what you believe, that’s totally cool. I would highly recommend church socials, church youth group type things, church weekday events. Those sorts of things. Lots of women at those, no doubt.
Geoff:
Yeah. I mean, from my perspective as an evolutionary psychologist, churches literally function…one of their important functions is they’re a mating market. You may have been raised in a particular religion, but you don’t need, necessarily, to feel bound only to go to churches in that particular religion. You can kind of try them out. Wherever you happen to be living, there might be a big, cool church with a lot of young people that’s a little outside what you grew up in, but try it. Go there.
Tucker:
Yeah. As I understand it, most of the mega-churches tend to be…I don’t wanna say Unitarian, but they tend to be broadly Christian. I’m sure I’m using the wrong words, but they don’t tend to be, like, “Oh, you have to be a Pentecostal and handle snakes or you can’t come in,” or something. They tend to be more inclusive, I think, which is probably why they’re a mega-church. The more inclusive you are, the more people you have, right?
Geoff:
And there’s certain churches, like the Unitarian church, where there’s a lot of polyamorous people there.
Tucker:
Really?
Geoff:
Yeah. Seriously. So, if you’re polyamorous, go to a Unitarian church.
Tucker:
Okay. Yeah. If you want someone to fuck your wife, go to a Unitarian church. Alright. So, improv. That’s the next thing I wanna talk about because I have never been to an improv class, but every friend of mine who’s a dude that has gone has been like, “Why did I not do this sooner?” You can take acting classes. I would actually recommend improv. This might be harder if you’re in a small city. If you’re in a big city, it’s easy. There’s probably a ton of improv schools. Improv is improvisation. It basically teaches you not just comedy, but it teaches you how to talk to people, how to be funny, how to excel in spontaneous interactions. It’s generally designed around performances. You never have to perform. Don’t let that freak you out. But it’s usually, from what I understand, 60/40 to 70/30, girl to guy, so more girls than guys and it tends to be young people and it tends to be people who are really fun and love to have a good time. I don’t mean party, get drunk at a bar, good time. Just more generally fun, cool people, although they can overlap, of course. But here’s what’s also cool about it. Sort of like CrossFit kills two birds with one stone, improv kills two birds with one stone. Actually, three maybe. It teaches you how to be funny. It teaches you how to talk to people and be spontaneous in the moment, which a lot of guys really need help with, conversation and humor. It forces you to interact with women, right? But in a good way. In a natural, normal way. You show up at improv class, everyone’s new, everyone’s anxious, everyone’s insecure. If you have the smallest bit of confidence, you’re now the high status guy in the class, right? You’re all in the same tribe and it’s like, you get up there and even do something half-funny, every girl’s like, “Oh, wow. This guy’s great. All of a sudden, now, you’re in a situation where you’re able to display good things about yourself to a small group of women and you’re in a super good situation and you’re learning a lot of stuff.
Geoff:
Probably dance classes have a lot of the same impact.
Tucker:
Salsa and dance classes also, I know, have a lot of the same disparities. We talked about intramural sports leagues. We’ve talked about yoga a little bit. I forget who it was we talked to on one of the podcasts…Rachel Grazioplene. A lot of women don’t wanna meet guys in yoga, right? So…I do know of a couple yoga studios that do singles’ events, where it’s, like, singles yoga. So, afterwards, you all have a couple glasses of wine there. If you’re into that, I would absolutely recommend that, but yoga kind of works like…this is why CrossFit is so much better than the gym, right? Yoga works like the gym. When a woman’s at the gym on the elliptical, she doesn’t wanna fucking talk to you. Leave her alone. If she’s at CrossFit, she has to talk to you. That’s the way it works. It’s normal to talk to a girl, right? So, understand, I didn’t say working out. I said CrossFit, right? There are other activities that are just like CrossFit. You can do…oh, man. Here’s a good one. All those sort of Mud Run type things? So, Spartan Race or Tough Mudder…those sort of things when you run through obstacle courses, those are fantastic. I know one of the guys who runs one of the big ones, and he’s like, “Dude. I haven’t had a girlfriend in three years ‘cause every weekend, we do a different one in a different city and I hook up with a hot girl every weekend,” because these things are chock full of really attractive, really in shape, really fun girls, and they always have events afterwards. That’s why people do them! It’s not to run in the fucking mud. I mean, that’s part of it, but it’s because they have a big fucking twenty-keg social afterwards and everyone talks to each other and you’re all friends and it’s fucking amazing. It’s sort of like going…why do people go to Coachella and Bonnaroo and those outdoor festivals? Same thing, except it’s not three days in this awful, bumfuck Tennessee town where you’re sweating everywhere and on drugs. You’re actually around fun, healthy people.
Geoff:
And after a Tough Mudder or whatever, you’re too tired to be nervous.
Tucker:
Right. Exactly. Exactly, you’re not nervous. You’re just like, “Hey, what’s up? Did you have a good time? What’d you do? That’s a great time. Oh, I had a problem on this obstacle.” You have twenty things to talk about before you ever are like, “So, what do you do? Where do you go to school?” or whatever. Right?
Geoff:
Another thing I would suggest is any kind of continuing education class. If you’re in any kind of city of any size, there will be a university and they will have continuing education classes, and you’re allowed to take them even if you’re still in college there. Right? That means you can learn, maybe, an interesting skill. Mostly, it’s women taking those classes. You are seeing the same people, typically, week after week for a few times, so you build up a sense that it’s an in-group, you trust each other. There’s lots of opportunities for informal interaction, before and after class, you have shared values and interests, you can demonstrate excellence and skills and talents in various ways. It just broadens your social circle, but it’s just much more natural, easy, low-risk, low-stress way to meet people than just going up to a stranger.
Tucker:
I would actually recommend, if you’re a really young guy, let’s say, below twenty-five, you just left college, whatever city you go into, I know you can take extension courses at colleges. I would actually recommend taking some of those, maybe. Look, don’t be one of those weirdos where you take a nursing course and you don’t care about nursing and the girls are like, “Why are you here?” They’re gonna think you’re creepy and they’re gonna be right. But if there’s something you actually care about, like, let’s say you wanna learn to…computer programming’s a bad example, ‘cause that’s generally gonna be a lot of guys, although if you care about computer programming, maybe don’t do that in your house. It’s very cool to learn to code. You can make $100k a year as even a mediocre coder. Maybe take that as a course at a college, an extension. It might cost you a little more, but there are gonna be girls there and if you have any social ability, you’re gonna be better than the other autistic weirdos that are in there and you’ll do great, right?
Geoff:
Take a psychology class. Take a human sexuality class, for god’s sake.
Tucker:
Exactly. If you live in Albuquerque, take Dr. Miller’s human psych class at the University of New Mexico. That’ll be a lot of fun. Check with your school. Don’t just walk in like some creep off the street. Check with your school. Look around. There might be things or skills to learn. Another great place, community colleges. You can just pay for one course and learn one thing. Let’s say you really care about, I don’t know, CPR or something like that. Skills that can actually matter in your life? Maybe take one of those courses. I’ll tell you guys, when I first moved to Austin, I took a bunch of cooking courses. Not cooking. I didn’t really know how to really butcher a hog and I kind of wanted to learn how to butcher, right? It turned out, I actually met a girl in the class, and of course, I knew this girl is fucking. She’s cutting pig, while boars open, she’s definitely fucking…she was cool as hell. We had a great time. Cooking classes also tend to be a lot of women. They usually tend to be older women, though, so I don’t wanna really recommend cooking classes, but I learned. There was a lot of sous-vide stuff, like making sauces and cooking things in a low temperature water, which is what sous-vide is. I didn’t know about it. Instead of learning it online, I just took a course about it, right? It was fun. I learned a bunch. I met new people. Guys, there are so many things you can learn about or do. Here’s the thing. Oh, my goodness. Wine tastings. You get drunk and there are usually women there.
Geoff:
And you learn about wine.
Tucker:
And you learn about wine, so the next time you go to a restaurant with a woman, you’re not like, “What’s this cabernet sauvignon?” You’re like, “Oh, we should have this Jarvis. I had it the other day. It’s really good. It’s got this earthy, rich raspberry flavor.” And the girl will look at you like, “How do you know this?” You’re like, “Oh, well, I took this course.” All of a sudden, you’re not just another fucking swinging-dick doofus. You’re at least a swinging-dick doofus who has the smallest bit of intelligence and aesthetics and conscientiousness, right?
Geoff:
You sound positively European and sophisticated compared to most guys.
Tucker:
Right. I’ll tell you guys, as a side note, I know a lot of wine ‘cause I grew up in the restaurant business. My family owns restaurants, so I just kind of learned about it naturally or through them. I don’t know in the last three years if any piece of knowledge has helped me get laid more than knowing about wine. Like, I’m not gonna sit here and say go learn about wine ‘cause if you’re young and you don’t have money, it’s really shitty. But if you have money…We should do this as sort of a…’cause we’ll probably end up doing a whole module about if you get divorced later in life, what do you do when you’re back on the market? That’s sort of a different thing. I think one of the big things for guys is to learn about wine. Women love wine, and having that knowledge, it’s really easy to become proficient. It’s actually fun and it’s really, really helpful.
Geoff:
Yeah. There’s certain kinds of knowledge that are like catnip to women that is almost irresistible. Knowing about wine is one. Knowing about psychology. Women are absolutely fascinated by psychology.
Tucker:
Mhmm. Understanding things.
Geoff:
Subscribe to Psychology Today or whatever. You know, figure out what those interests that women have are. I did want to pick up a point about, “Oh, don’t go to a class ‘cause there’s a bunch of older women.” Yeah. If they’re, like, 70+ and you’re 20, then fine. But a lot of young guys have this attitude that, “Well, I went through an educational system that was like, chronologically age-segregated and therefore, I’m not allowed to date any woman older than me.” No. You should…Older women can teach you a lot. A lot about life, about sex, about women. They know themselves better. They know their bodies. They’ve been with a bunch of men. They can see your strengths and weaknesses more clearly. So, if you’re one of these 23-year-old guys and you’re in a cooking class—
Tucker:
If a cougar comes hunting for you, don’t be upset.
Geoff:
Not even a cougar, but a 30-year-old. Most 23-year-olds are like, “Oh, she’s in a different category than me.” They don’t know what to do with that. Well, she’ll know what to do with you, so just let it happen.
Tucker:
Yes. Absolutely. I was thinking – so, I live in Austin, so I took cooking classes at the Whole Foods. They have an academy, and these are all 50-year-old, frumpy housewives. That’s what I was thinking. There’s nothing those women can teach me except maybe about baking or something or how to have an unsatisfying husband or whatever.
Geoff:
Even the frumpy housewives, though! If you talk to them, man.
Tucker:
Yes, you’re right. So, listen. You guys are in a different spot than I am. If you’re 26, I’ll tell you what. Here’s what you can learn. Let’s say you’re 26. You take a cooking class and it’s you and four 50-year-old women and you’re like, “Oh, what the fuck?” I’ll tell you what to do. Get to know these women. Talk to them. Interact with them. Two things are gonna happen. One, you’re gonna learn how to talk to women. So, unless you’re already really good at talking to women, you’re gonna get way better. You’re gonna be comfortable. You can laugh. You can make friends with them. Whatever. It’s kind of ‘cause it’s so low-stress. They don’t see you as sexual. You don’t see them as sexual. So, there’s basically no pressure. You can really be good. You can practice your verbal courtship, and then all of a sudden, when you’re talking to girls, you just think…if your goal is having fun, like we’ve said over and over, then you’re talking to this 22-year-old you’re trying to sleep with the same as a 52-year-old in cooking class. You’re gonna do great. That’s one. Number two is if you are not a shit bird, if you’re a good dude, these women have daughters and nieces and women they work with and they’re tied into social groups. If they like you, they often will – especially these women – will introduce you to the young women they know, or say, “Hey. I run a PR firm and we have a cocktail hour every Thursday. You should come to it and meet my secretary.”
Geoff:
Even the middle-aged guys have daughters. This is how my dad met my mother.
Tucker:
I don’t know about this shit.
Geoff:
Okay.
Tucker:
I don’t know about – I’ve never had a dude introduce me to a woman, or an older guy.
Geoff:
Well, maybe this is kind of old-school, but my dad was in a law firm, recently graduated law school, playing trombone in a local brass band, right? And the trombonist next to him was like, “Hey, I think you’re interesting. Why don’t you come home and meet my seven daughters?” One of whom turned out to be my mom. So, even…it’s even worth talking to the guys, because if they think you’ve got some mate value and that you’re not just doing short-term mating, then they might introduce you to female relatives.
Tucker:
Yes. I would not bank too much on that strategy, younger guys. For older guys, I can totally see that, though. Like, especially if you’re divorced, whatever, you’ve got a lot of male friends. Those dudes know you. It’s a very different situation. Younger guys, if you’re early twenties, you’re not gonna find a lot of older guys introducing you to anyone. I think that dynamic might have shifted in our society a little bit. Look, if it happens, that’s great. At church organizations, I could see that happening a lot.
Geoff:
The overriding point is almost everybody you meet knows an attractive, interesting woman in their social circle somewhere, and if you get to talk to them and they think you’re cool and interesting, that can extend your mating reach.
Tucker:
Yes. I cannot, I cannot emphasize that enough. So, big takeaways. If you don’t like bars and clubs, guess what? That’s natural and you’re in the majority. No problem, okay? What you should do is – big takeaway, make your dating life an extension of your social life. Now, that means expanding your social life. Everything that you like doing that you can do in a group, do in a group with women. Volunteer, workout, conferences, classes, improv. All that stuff. There’s literally hundreds of things, okay? We’ll link a bunch of ideas on the podcast page for this and you can also think of shit in your own life, guys. You can actually think for yourself, some of you.
Geoff:
Yeah. Make your mating life overlap with your social life, but also with your educational life, the stuff you learn, with your professional life, your career, your aspirations, and your extended family life. And your church and your political beliefs.
Tucker:
Also, this is not mutually exclusive with going out to bars. If you like going out to bars and meeting women, that’s awesome. I do, too. Guess what? Most of the best women I’ve met were not that way. Some of the best women I’ve met were. There’s an idea you can’t meet great women at bars. That’s bullshit. We’ll talk about that in the bar and club podcast. But it is much harder to meet great women that way. It really is. Socially, the vast majority of great women I’ve met in my life I’ve met through friends or through social groups, right? Mainly through friends I’ve met in social groups, which is actually the key thing. So, remember. You don’t volunteer to get laid. You volunteer to meet women, and from meeting women, you expand your social network and some of those women are gonna be women who are attracted to you as well, and then you can do whatever you two wanna do together.