Introduction:
Tucker interviews Dr. Christopher Ryan, the bestselling author of Sex at Dawn, the seminal text on the evolution of monogamy in human mating. Over the course of the hour, Tucker and Dr. Ryan touch on a number of fascinating subjects, but none more so than trust. Specifically, the idea that if a woman trusts you, she is more likely to feel comfortable exploring the limits of her sexuality with you. What does this mean in plain English? Provide a safe, comfortable space where she can trust you, and she’ll let her freak flag fly.
Podcast:
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Key takeaways:
Biologically and evolutionarily speaking, it’s normal and natural to want to have sex with a lot of different women.
In the standard narrative of sexuality, women have sex with men so that men will give them resources like food, shelter, etc. That’s not the case – women have sex because they like it, just as much as men do. Women are every bit as sexual as men.
The key is that a woman feels protected and respected, and is confident that you’re not going to go and talk about it to everyone afterwards, which could damage her reputation (especially among other females).
There is absolutely no contradiction between being a strong man and being respectful and empathetic for women at the same time. For example, if you see a really hot women, you can just go up to her and casually say “You look great today”, and then walk off without asking her out.
We’ve said this before: when you go out, don’t go out with the intention of trying to get laid. Go out with the intention to have fun and meet new people. That gets you out talking to people and talking to girls who might be attracted to you, but there is no hookup in mind so there’s nothing to fail at. And if you do meet a girl that you have a fun conversation with, then great, she probably feels safer with you, and it doesn’t feel creepy and transactional.
So it’s not that you don’t care about hooking up – of course you care. But you’re not actively pursuing it until an opportunity presents itself with a girl that you like and who seems into you. Then you pursue it.
If you’re not good and comfortable in a bar or club environment, then don’t go to bars and clubs to meet women. Go to the place where you can do the thing that you’re good at and where women can notice you because of it. For example, if you’re a smart guy, go to hear an author speak and ask some interesting questions.
Don’t waste time chasing things you don’t really want. Don’t chase girls you have nothing in common with, or who want different things to you. Dr. Ryan was open and honest about his research and what he thought – so all the girls that weren’t into that quickly left, and it filtered out those women, leaving just the women who were still interested.
If you get your shit together and can become attractive to women, there will be no shortage of opportunities for you.
High school is shitty and awful for most people. Dr. Ryan was not attractive and did not do well in high school, but in the years since he’s done great with women. It gets better.
Rather than trying to get laid tonight, put your energy towards setting up your life in a way that you can meet women who like guys like you. For example, finding things that you like doing and joining groups that do those things. Rather than working out alone at home or at the gym, join a Crossfit gym where there are tons of women there.
Don’t think of relationships as transactional, like “I have to talk to this woman and convince her to have sex with me.” Become attractive to women, and then go and be around women in a natural way and build relationships with them (short-term or long-term).
Don’t talk to all your buddies about getting your dick sucked. Be respectful, and don’t go into the details. If you tell your friends about it, you’ll get a short-term status bump but in the long-term it will be bad for you because the girl will eventually find out you were talking about her. Plus you get more status with your friends in the long-term by letting them work it out for themselves.
You can pursue women and be confident without being pushy. For example, if you go home from a bar with a woman, but you’re not sure if she wants to sleep with you, then try non-sexual touching, like her hair or something. If she doesn’t like it she’ll move away. If she does like it, great. If you go a bit further and she says “Not tonight”, then fine, leave it there. And don’t be pouty and moody about it – it will happen a few days later or next week, just not that night. You don’t need to apologize, just respect what she says.
Likewise in bed, women want guys who are assertive, even dominant, but they also want to trust the guy and feel safe and protected up front, so they know that when it comes to being assertive in bed she feels comfortable with it.
Get a Waterpik and brush your teeth properly. Bad breath is a huge turnoff to women.
Links from this episode
Dr. Ryan’s book Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships
For more on sperm competition, check out Robin Baker’s book Sperm Wars: Infidelity, Sexual Conflict, and Other Bedroom Battles
Alain de Botton’s book The Romantic Movement: Sex, Shopping, and the Novel
The novels of Joseph Conrad and Herman Melville – no one reads this in high school apart from Dr. Ryan.
The Waterpik Ultra Water Flosser
Dr. Christopher Ryan’s Bio:
Co-author of Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships with his wife, Cacilda Jethá.
BA in English and American Literature in 1984, MA and PhD in psychology 20 years later, from Saybrook University (in San Francisco).
In those 20 years he worked a number of odd jobs including “gutting salmon in Alaska, teaching English to prostitutes in Bangkok and self-defense to land-reform activists in Mexico, managing commercial real-estate in New York’s Diamond District, helping Spanish physicians publish their research” (from his official bio), and decided to study psychology further.
Has his own podcast called Tangentially Speaking with Christopher Ryan.
Dr. Christopher Ryan’s Major Works:
Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships
Key thesis is that humans haven’t evolved to be sexually monogamous – we enjoy sexual novelty, and so long-term relationships are inherently difficult.
Great quote: “we argue that women aren’t whores by nature, they’re sluts – and we mean that as a compliment.” (source)
Book is NOT arguing in favour of polygamy – rather, it argues that the standard narrative (which he says is “about as scientifically valid as Adam and Eve” – source) of sexuality isn’t the only way of looking at it, and that we should be open and honest and advance the discussion.
Argues that up until now, modern day academics have projected their assumptions, views and ideas onto hunter-gatherer society (aka Flintstonization)
This was also a mistake that Darwin made – Ryan describes Darwin as “a gentleman and a genius” but who was “a bit clueless with women” and had “little to go on other than conjecture”. (source)
Ryan distinguishes between sexual monogamy and social monogamy – e.g., birds “form pairs that cooperatively care for that season’s brood of young, but the male may well not be the biological father.”
This implies that a less constricting view of human sexuality would help long-term relationships – instead of the current “marriage-industrial complex” of couples therapy and sex aids that aim to help those in long-term monogamous relationships.
Argues that humans are “the most sexual species” due to the ways we have sex when it can’t lead to reproduction e.g. oral, anal, when the woman is pregnant etc., which most other animals don’t do.
This theory means that sperm competition is much more important than sexual competition between men, as a female could have sex with several males, and the healthiest sperm will lead to reproduction.
Further reading on Dr. Christopher Ryan:
Official website
TED talk: Are we designed to be sexual omnivores?
Blog on Psychology Today
Twitter
Dr. Ryan answers FAQs about his book
Dr. Ryan addresses common criticisms about his work
Podcast Audio Transcription:
Tucker:
Alright, so we are on Mating Grounds Podcast with Dr. Christopher Ryan, author of Sex At Dawn. Very happy to have you.
Christopher:
Thank you. Great to be here.
Tucker:
Thank you for coming. So, imagine I’m, like, a 20-year-old guy. How would you describe your basic thesis of your book and your thoughts? What would I…I’m not an academic. I don’t understand, you know, mating markets or evolution or whatever. I mean, I get it, but who cares? It’s monkeys and trees. Whatever. Right? So, how would you describe your book to me?
Christopher:
The basic argument in the book is that human beings are not, by nature, monogamous species. We are closely associated with chimps and bonobos, those are our two closest primate relatives, both of which are promiscuous…
Tucker:
Bonobos are just small chimps, basically. For all intents and purposes.
Christopher:
No. No, no, no. Bonobos are very different from chimps. Genetically, very similar. Behaviorally, very different. Completely different. The way their society is, the way they have sex, the way they share food…
Tucker:
Most people have no idea what a bonobo is.
Christopher:
They need to. They need to. That’s the important thing.
Tucker:
It’s a pygmy chimp. That’s one of those slang terms.
Christopher:
That used to be what it was called. Used to be called pygmy chimps.
Tucker:
But if you picture a chimp, it’s a chimp. A small, little chimp. A little cuter, too.
Christopher:
Yeah. Their hair’s parted in the middle and yeah. But anyway, the point of the book is, humans are not by nature a monogamous species, which is why long-term sexual monogamy is difficult for us. The takeaway from it is that if you’ve got a good relationship with someone, but the sexual energy starts to dissipate over a while, that doesn’t mean that your marriage is fucked up. That doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with your partner, wrong with you. You’re attracted to other people, she’s attracted to other people. That’s the way we’re designed.
Tucker:
So, I’m a young guy, and there’s a lot of people in my life telling me, “Oh, you have to have a girlfriend, you have to do this, you have to do that,” and you’re saying that it’s…moral issues are a little bit of a different question, but it’s a very evolutionary, biologically normal thing for me to want to mate with a lot of women, to be with a lot of women.
Christopher:
Right. That’s why nobody looks at, like, the same porn star every time. Nobody’s got one porn magazine with their favorite – well, nobody’s got porn magazines at all anymore, but nobody looks at just one porn star. It’s all about variety. We’re attracted to variety in our erotic appetites just as much as in our artistic appetites. Nobody is like, “I only like the Rolling Stones.” You know? Come on. You like rock and roll. You like jazz. You like lots of music. “I only like Picasso.” No, you like lots of art. That’s the way we are, and it’s the same thing in our erotic appetite.
Tucker:
I know you’ve talked a lot in the past that the standard narrative of sexuality is not right. What do you see as the standard narrative?
Christopher:
The standard narrative is that, since the beginning of time, women have traded sexual fidelity to men for goods and services.
Tucker:
Meaning, men are monogamous. Like, men are just with them.
Christopher:
Well, meaning that women are monogamous. That the woman will only have sex with the one man in exchange for meat, protection, status, shelter, whatever. The reason, in the standard narrative, is that men are concerned with paternity certainty. That a man doesn’t want to invest…
Tucker:
You want to know your kids are yours.
Christopher:
Because you’re investing all this meat, status, etc., you want to make sure they’re your kids. So, that’s the standard narrative. Seems to make a lot of sense. The problem is that when you look at hunter-gatherer societies who live the way our ancestors did or you look at primates that are closely related to us or you look at the anatomy of human genitalia, the shape of the penis, the fact that we have external testicles, the fact that women have multiple orgasms…You look at all these different factors. What they all suggest is that no, our ancestors, actually, were promiscuous, meaning that the women weren’t only mating with one man. They were mating with several men. Sperm competition is really clear in our genetic history and in the design of our anatomy in that our ancestors shared resources the same way that hunter-gatherers do today. Sharing was the primary social motivation in prehistory.
Tucker:
So, let’s talk about the design of our genitalia. I know this is super interesting, and most people don’t know this. You said that the way that our penis is shaped actually is proof that humans have been non-monogamous for a lot of our evolutionary history. What are you talking about? What do you mean?
Christopher:
Look, I don’t like to say proof.
Tucker:
Indicates.
Christopher:
Yeah, because math is the only place where anything gets proven, ‘cause I could be wrong. But it certainly indicates, it strongly suggests it. Okay, the shape of the penis. First of all, the human penis is the thickest of any primates’, compared to overall body size, and more or less tied for longest with the bonobo. Okay? The bonobo penis and the chimp is like a long, thin cone that sort of comes to a point. What they do is they insert the penis, ejaculate, pull it out. Eight seconds, maybe fifteen seconds on a good day. Human sex, this repeated thrusting action with this thick penis with the flared head. So, what that does, that repeated thrusting action creates a vacuum in the woman’s vaginal tract that pulls preexisting sperm back from her ovum, which is also why women often complain that, when they have sex with a circumcised guy, where the flared head is more accentuated, because there’s not the loose skin to go back over it, it dries them out because it’s pulling all of the moisture out of her pussy.
Tucker:
Yeah, that’s what it’s designed for, right?
Christopher:
Yeah. That’s what it’s designed for. But it’s not designed to make her dry. It’s designed to pull, you know…
Tucker:
Pull the sperm out.
Christopher:
Right. If you’re, you know, sloppy seconds.
Tucker:
So, does this mean that humans evolved having orgies all the time? Or it just means that enough women were promiscuous enough that it made sense to evolve defenses against other men’s sperm? Or make compensations for it?
Christopher:
Yeah. Somewhere between those two extremes, I think. From the data we’ve got, you can’t conclude that orgies were happening with a given frequency. But, there are lots of indications, like, for example, the fact that gangbang porn is super popular among straight dudes. Why would a straight dude want to watch four men and one woman? That doesn’t make sense, right? You’d want to see four women and one guy, ‘cause you’re more into the women. Turns out, most heterosexual men are into sex scenes in which there are more men than women in the scene. To me, that’s a pretty strong indication that there’s an evolved appetite for group sexual situations that involve more than one man. As is the fact that women have this capacity for multiple orgasms and to keep going for a long time whereas guys tend to, well, two minutes and you’re done and you want to go watch the game. There’s nothing you’re less interested in after an orgasm than having more sex, right? Which makes perfect sense. Get the hell out of the way, right?
Tucker:
Alright, now, to clarify the argument. You’re not arguing that women are evolved to be whores. Actually, you have a great quote about this. “We argue that women aren’t whores by nature. They’re sluts, and we mean slut in the best way possible. It’s a compliment.” So, what exactly do you mean by that?
Christopher:
What that means is, you know, we say Darwin says your mother’s a whore. We say your mother’s a slut. Because, in the Darwinian or the standard narrative as its understood in mainstream science now, women are trading sex for stuff.
Tucker:
For resources, right.
Christopher:
Right. That’s a whore. Right? So, what we’re saying is no. Women aren’t having sex because they want to get something. Women aren’t evolved to be golddiggers, right? Women are evolved to have sex because it feels good, the same reason men have sex. What’s happened is that, since agriculture, we’ve put women in a position where the only way they could get resources was through a man. The only thing they had to barter with was their sexuality, so they did, ‘cause they wanted to survive and they wanted the children to survive. That’s not biological evolution; that’s culture. So, that’s the subversive aspect of the book that makes some people uncomfortable.
Tucker:
Well, people have issues with sexuality. That’s their problem, right?
Christopher:
And with politics and with economics.
Tucker:
Of course, and religion and all that. Of course. We’re just looking at the evidence, or trying to. So, this is all very interesting, but who cares about chimps? At the end of the day…Some people do, but I don’t really care about chimps. Or, if I’m a 20-year-old, I don’t care about chimps. I care about this hot girl in my class, right? What do these ideas mean to me as a young guy in the modern world What are some things that I don’t understand about women that, if I understood this, would help enlighten me? What are ideas that I need to know that I don’t have that your book and your ideas would make clear to me? Understand what I’m saying?
Christopher:
Yeah. One of the things I say when I give public talks, especially in universities and stuff where there are a lot of young people in the audience, one of the things I really try to accentuate is women are every bit as sexual as men are. Now, the fact that men are much more frustrated sexually and have a harder time getting laid, sorry. That’s part of the deal. But, women are potentially every bit as sexual or more than any man. The key is that a woman feels respected, protected, you’re not gonna fuck her and go tell all her buddies…Because women are extremely sensitive to reputation. More than men are.
Tucker:
Because of other women, which we’ll get to later.
Christopher:
Yeah. Exactly. That’s exactly why. The point is, if you’re a guy, you want to be doing two things. On the one side, you want to be working on yourself so that you’re someone that she wants to be with, that she’s interested in, so you’ve got your shit together as much as you possibly can at twenty or whatever age you are. And you’ve got the strength of character to be sincere. You’re not wimpy. You’re strong, but you’re very respectful of women and protective of women and you’re not exploiting women. ‘Cause that opens up the sexuality.
Tucker:
No, I got you. So, I want to hammer this point, because this is something I think most guys miss. In your mind, there is no contradiction between being a strong sort of man and being respectful and empathetic for women, right?
Christopher:
Not at all. In fact, you can’t be one without the other, in my mind.
Tucker:
Right, ‘cause if you’re strong and assertive without that, you’re just an asshole or a sociopath or a rapist or something worse. If you are empathetic and respectful without strength and assertiveness, you’re just a pussy. Right. Exactly.
Christopher:
And women don’t like pussies.
Tucker:
No, absolutely not. In most young guys’ minds, they see those two things as opposites, as mutually exclusive, and you can be one or the other, so you have the frustrated nice guy who gets no girls ‘cause he’s a pussy, and you get the asshole who gets girls but sort of doesn’t do as well as he could and doesn’t really have good relationships.
Christopher:
Nothing lasts, ‘cause eventually a woman finds out what a dick he is and she moves on.
Tucker:
Or, it frustrates his ability to get more girls, ‘cause he’s a dick to one, she tells her friends, right? Okay. So, then in your mind, what does the balance look like? This is where most young guys can’t figure out, what does it look like to be both? From your perspective. From the perspective of a man who’s successful, especially with women, what does that look like to you?
Christopher:
Yeah. I mean, it’s funny to be in a position of talking about this stuff because I certainly didn’t understand it at twenty. You know?
Tucker:
No one does. Right? That’s why we’re doing this. No one does.
Christopher:
In a way, it’s really tough, because at that age, you’re so testosterone-poisoned that it’s hard to think straight, especially in the presence of attractive women. But I think a big key is, you and I were talking earlier about the power of not giving a damn. Even when you really do give a damn, there is a fake it till you make it element to some of this. I think it’s really important for women to perceive you as someone who can do without. So, jerking off is a great tool. Before you go out, maybe toss one, so you’re not, like, so fixated…
Tucker:
Amped up, right.
Christopher:
Right. Because women get scared by that. It goes back to what I was saying before, that women’s sexuality flourishes in a safe space, in a secure environment where they feel protected and loved and all that. And then they can open up and get sexual. I think it was Jerry Seinfeld that said that male sexuality is like we’re like firemen, you know? It’s like, we’re ready to go, man. Ring the bell and we’re out the door. Whereas women’s sexuality is like fire. It can be hard to get it started, but once you get it going, it can be hard to stop.
Tucker:
Better watch out. Right. This is such a good subject and there are so few people who are knowledgeable and open about this. What, behaviorally, on a minute-to-minute, hour-to-hour basis, interaction basis, what does that look like from a guy? Like, what is assertiveness paired with respect? What does that look like behaviorally?
Christopher:
I think that, especially in America, there’s a lot of confusion and difficulty around how to approach women that you’re interested in. I’ve been living in Spain for twenty-something years, so I’m more oriented toward the Spanish approach, which—
Tucker:
Which is very aggressive.
Christopher:
Well…
Tucker:
Very forward.
Christopher:
Yeah. Well, it’s shameless and it’s open, but this is an interesting thing because if it’s done directly, women don’t experience it as aggressive. They experience it as complimentary. Because flirting in Spain is disassociated from getting laid. In America, it’s the same. In America, it’s all very gold-driven.
Tucker:
Transactional. Right. Gold-driven and transactional.
Christopher:
Right. So I think, from my perspective and in my own experience, when those things get disassociated and the woman senses that. In other words, if you’re around someone, you’re on campus, you’re in college, whatever, and you see a woman and you know her and she’s great and she’s hot, whatever…maybe a really good thing to do is to let her know that you appreciate her beauty, but don’t ask her out. “You look great today,” and then just let it go. Drop it. Move on.
Tucker:
Trust me, I know what’s gonna happen. This is great advice, and I can fill in the gaps, but we’re gonna get an email from dudes who are like, “But what exactly does he mean, just say something?” Like, literally, you would go up to her and say, “You look great today,” and then just walk off?
Christopher:
Yeah.
Tucker:
I’m with you. I know exactly what you’re talking about.
Christopher:
Yeah. Because what you’re doing….you’re sending a message. The message is, “I appreciate you. You give me energy. You make my life happier. But I’m not asking for anything.” Exactly. And, “I’m the kind of guy who doesn’t need anything from you.”
Tucker:
Here’s the important part. How do you say it? Tone of voice, posture, etc.
Christopher:
As casually as possible, but that’s the conundrum because if you’re 20-years-old and you see this super hot woman, you’re like, shaking…So, we haven’t talked about Neil Strauss and that, but one of the things that I agree with about what he talked about is practicing rejection. Go get rejected. You were talking about jujitsu. You get knocked on your ass enough times, it stops being a big deal. This gets back to Spain and the Mediterranean approach to flirting. The thing about Spain…At dinner last night, I was talking about this. I think you were at the other end of the table, but there’s a book called The Romantic Movement. Alain de Botton is a philosopher…
Tucker:
Oh, of course! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christopher:
In that book, he talks about how northern European flirting and southern European flirting are so different. The northern European thing, which is the American style, at least white American, is you get sort of obsessed and you’re thinking about her all the time and maybe you write a poem. I could think of all the stupid shit I did.
Tucker:
You’re devout, almost.
Christopher:
Yeah. It becomes this really intense focus thing. Then, when you finally approach her, you’re really nervous and she senses, “Wow. This dude is kind of dangerous. This is too much for me.” There’s no easy way into it for her, because you’re already so deeply…you’ve already had so much Koolaid that you’re in. Whereas the southern European thing is rejection is expected. You’re like, “Oh, you’re beautiful. You want to go to dinner?” “No, I wouldn’t go to dinner with you.” And everyone laughs. It’s a game. It’s no big deal. You have to go into these things very lightly. You have to make it easy for her to say yes.
Tucker:
Let me throw out something else. I actually fundamentally disagree…southern European style works in southern Europe, no doubt, ‘cause that’s the cultural expectation. Right? I think if you bring that style, it doesn’t work in America for a lot of reasons, and also it’s very…I call it Spray and Pray. Like, I’m gonna ask every girl out and just hope one says yes. That’s tedious and creepy to women, and it’s humiliating to the guy. I don’t actually believe in the sort of endure yourself to failure route. I’m gonna tell you what I like to tell guys to do. Tell me what you think. What I tell guys to do is don’t go out thinking about sex. Go out thinking about meeting people and having fun. That your goal is I want to meet new people. Not even necessarily make friends, ‘cause maybe you don’t meet anyone you don’t want to be friends with. I want to meet new people, ‘cause you can always meet new people, and I want to have as much fun as I can in these conversations and meeting new people. If you have those two goals, what that does is it gets you out, it gets you talking to people, it puts you in front of girls that you might be attracted to who might be attracted to you, but there is no hookup, even date in mind, so there’s almost nothing to fail at. You can’t fail at meeting people and having fun if you make even a minimal effort, right?
Now, if you meet a great girl and you’ve talked to her for two hours and had a bunch of fun, then it gives her an easy, quick way in. You’re not looking at her like a piece of meat. Even if you release your desire, it’s still in the back of your head that you’re hoping to get inside of her. But, if you change your perspective and make it about having fun and meeting people, what’s going to happen at the end of the night is…Girls go out, they’ve already decided if they’re going home with someone or not for the most part. They’re just picking who. So, your goal isn’t to convince her to get laid. Your goal is to show her that you’re an awesome guy she wants to spend time with. And, if you have no end goal – I don’t care about asking you out, I don’t care about hooking up, these aren’t my goals – then the girl is looking at you like, “Oh, wow. Here’s a guy who maybe wants me but doesn’t need me. Obviously he’s attracted to me, but he’s not pursuing me. This is not transactional. He’s not creeping on me. This is a guy that I actually think I like, I want to get to know better, I feel safe with.” You’ve given her time and distance to feel safe with you, to feel respected by you, but also to be impressed by you. “Oh, he’s a funny dude, oh, he’s so nice.” Whatever. What do you think about that?
Christopher:
No, I agree. I agree 100%. What I was getting at with the lightness of the Spanish approach is it’s about letting her know that it’s not gonna ruin my night if I don’t have sex with you tonight. Right? I’d like to. That would be great. But it’s not a big deal. I’ve got a lot going on in my life. I’m an interesting guy. I’ve got interesting friends. There are other women who are interested in me. I read. I travel. Whatever it is that you’re into. Not that you would say this explicitly, but it’s all implied in the fact that, “hey, the sun doesn’t rise or set based upon whether you want to have sex with me.” It would be nice, but…
Tucker:
I’m totally on board with you. I don’t frame that as releasing desire or not giving a fuck. Because, look. The reality is, I give a fuck. Even at 38, I give a fuck about what women think. I mean, mostly my girlfriend, but I haven’t been dating her for that long. Before her, it was whatever girl I was into. So, I’d be lying to myself and having to fool myself to say I don’t care. If I didn’t care what women thought, I wouldn’t leave my house. I would jack off and play video games. I wouldn’t do any of this shit! Even though this is all geared toward men, I’m doing this because I care what women think about me.
Christopher:
You’re talking to me because you think it’s gonna lead to you getting laid.
Tucker:
In a very indirect way, yes.
Christopher:
You want me to hook you up with the woman I was talking about earlier.
Tucker:
No, it’s true. You know what I’m talking about, though. That’s why men do anything. But the point is, what I care about when I go out…If you care about meeting people and having fun, that’s your goal. Those are the goals. The other things you care about, but you’re not pursuing it. If I like a girl and an opportunity presents itself and she likes me, I will absolutely pursue it. You don’t have to pretend you don’t care, and then all of a sudden shift. If you pretend like you don’t, pretend like you don’t, and then you meet a girl that you really like and all of a sudden the floodgates are gonna open and you’re gonna be like, “Oh, I love you. You’re amazing. The sun rises and sets with you.” And she’ll be freaked out.
Christopher:
You don’t pretend about anything. That’s the thing. You don’t want to be full of shit, ‘cause women are pretty good at picking up guys who are full of shit.
Tucker:
Hold on. Here’s a really good point. I want to talk about it, ‘cause a lot of guys ask me this. I think you have a lot to say on this. A lot of guys are like, “I’m on board with being honest and straight with women about all things, but I’m really depressed ‘cause it seems like women don’t like the real me,” or something like that. What would you say to a guy who comes to you with that problem?
Christopher:
Alright. That’s a really good issue, and I think it’s an important issue. It’s something I can speak to because for a lot of time, I was in that position, I think. I was really into being honest and being myself and having everything on the table and it often completely fucked up the situation. But, I was really intense about it in a way that I think was kind of intimidating and freaky for people. There’s several different things I would say. First of all, the way women respond to you will change over time. 20-year-old women, no disrespect, don’t know what the fuck they’re doing.
Tucker:
Neither do 20-year-old guys. Exactly. No one does at twenty.
Christopher:
So, the rejection of a 20-year-old. At this age, I’m 52 now. If I was chatting with a 20-year-old girl, I don’t expect her to like me. I don’t even expect her to know who the fuck…I expect her to say, “Yeah, fucking creepy old man.” Fine. That’s what’s to be expected. But even when I was twenty, a lot of them were like, “Meh.” So, what I would say is if you are working on yourself, have faith that as you get older and the women you’re dealing with get older, the things that you’ve got that are valuable and substantial will become really valuable. So, that’s one thing. The other thing I would say, which is sort of questioning the premise of some of what we’re talking about here is that I’m the kind of person who, unlike you, has never been the cool guy in the bar. I’m not good-looking enough. I don’t have that kind of player vibe. I can be charismatic and gregarious, but…
Tucker:
Not in a social, drinking, bar way.
Christopher:
It’s too fucking loud!
Tucker:
I don’t like going to clubs either. I like places where you can hear people.
Christopher:
Right! Exactly. I used to hang out with all these models, I told you, in Barcelona. I’d go to clubs with these guys, and they’d walk in and there’d be, like, five women who would just come up. That doesn’t happen to me, right? Unless I’m with them, and even then, it’s like, “Hey…forget it.” You know, so what I’m saying is know yourself. Know what your strong suits are. If your strong suit is you’re smart. Not that you’re so good-looking. You’re smart, then go to places where women can hear you.
Tucker:
And women value intelligence.
Christopher:
And women value intelligence. Right. So, you’re gonna do better in your history class or going to hear an author speak and you ask an intelligent question. A place where you’re gonna distinguish yourself, women are gonna notice you because of the thing you’re really good at. That’s what’s important. The problem is, everybody goes to bars to try to get laid. And a guy like me, that’s not gonna work. And figure that out early. I think part of what you’re trying to do with helping guys is, how can I say this? For me, a really important thing was to stop wasting time on projects that weren’t ever gonna make me happy anyway.
Tucker:
Like what? I know exactly what you’re talking about, but what specifically?
Christopher:
Okay. A woman’s really hot. I look at her. She’s super hot. I want that woman.
Tucker:
She’s not into you.
Christopher:
She’s not into me or she’s not smart. Or she’s super religious. She’s looking to get married soon and have kids. She doesn’t like to travel. She doesn’t like spicy food.
Tucker:
She has nothing in common with you.
Christopher:
So, even if I win, I lose. ‘Cause I invest all this time and energy getting to be with this woman and then after a month, I’m like, “What the fuck am I doing here? I spent six months trying to get in this woman’s pants. I’m here, and I don’t even want to be here anymore!” So, I think it’s really important, before you invest all this time and energy trying to seduce somebody, is that really somebody you even want to be with? In my case, a lot of it was, I realized I was not sexually monogamous, and that’s a deal breaker for a lot of women. But because of the way I was and I was doing my PhD research on this, I’d meet a woman in a bar, and there was a period in my life where I was a bit of a player in Barcelona. We can talk about Spanish women….
Tucker:
Oh, we could swap stories, I’m sure.
Christopher:
Interesting stuff. But, anyway, I had a motorcycle, I was living in this mansion with all the models. If I got a woman on the back of my bike, forget it. It was a done deal. But the other way that I maximized success was I got shit on the table right away. So, meet a woman. First thing, “What do you do?” “I’m working on a PhD in Psychology.” “Oh, really? What’s your research?” “I’m focused on how monogamy is not natural for human beings.” “Oh…really?” At that point, they’re either like, “see you later,” or “that’s interesting. What’s that mean?” “Well, it means women are as sexual as men. It means blah blah blah,” and I can see it in her eyes, like, “Ooh. Here’s a guy who gets it. Here’s a guy I can have fun with. Here’s a guy I can probably have sex with him and someone else and he wouldn’t freak out about it. Here’s a guy my married friend could have sex with. Here’s a guy who’s not judgmental about women’s sexuality.” So, what have I done? Yeah, I’ve lost half the women immediately, but I didn’t waste any fucking time with them.
Tucker:
Exactly. Do you know how many questions I get from guys that will lay out some scenario where it’s clear as day to me and everyone else involved that they should not be in a relationship with this girl they’re pursuing. And then the question is, “How do I get this girl?” It’s like, dude. You shouldn’t be going after the girl. Like short guys who really want to play basketball. Hey, guess what, it’s not a sport designed for you. Go wrestle. Wrestling rewards short because the weight to strength ratio whereas basketball rewards height. Here’s the thing. There are a few short guys who play basketball, but they know immediately the odds are stacked against them and they know immediately there’s one position they can play, point guard, and they’ve got to play it a certain way and they’re gonna have to do a certain amount of things. If you just decide, “You know what? I’m gonna fight an uphill battle,” at least fucking know it. Know exactly how to fight that battle. But most people don’t know. You’re totally right.
Christopher:
Look. I don’t mean to break anyone’s romantic bubbles, but the whole notion of a soul mate, I think is bullshit.
Tucker:
Probably. But definitely the notion of one soul mate.
Christopher:
That’s what I mean. That there’s that one woman, there’s that one person who’s gonna make you happy, blah blah blah blah blah. No. There are lots of them. So, I think one of the curses of youth is that when things happen for the first time, you think it’s the only time.
Tucker:
Yeah.
Christopher:
And you’ve got to live a while before you…When my first girlfriend went to college, I was a year younger than her. I was still in high school. She went off to college.
Tucker:
You felt like the world was ending.
Christopher:
Dude. I wore sunglasses, like, at night for two months.
Tucker:
Because you never thought you were gonna get laid again.
Christopher:
Exactly. That was, like, love. I called her mother and begged her mother to convince her to come back to me. I showed up in the middle of the night. I was a pathetic fucking loser.
Tucker:
I’m laughing. I’ve done the same thing, Chris. We all have.
Christopher:
Right. But then you know what happened, right? Then, I moved to a new town, and I walk into this new school, nothing to lose, and the hottest chick in that high school, Alicia Suarez – if you’re out there, I still love you, Alicia – got into the new guy. I was like, the best thing that ever happened to me was that ugly, not attractive, right-wing weirdo that I had been going out with dumped my ass. It’s like what you were saying earlier about getting fired from a job. It can be a really good thing. So, if I could say something to young guys that, to me, has been a really important lesson to learn, it’s…And when I was really depressed and walking around with sunglasses in school and all this, I remember a teacher put his arm around me and he said, “Listen. Women are like buses. You miss one, there’s another one coming. Trust me.”
Tucker:
You know what cracks me up about that? That statement is, like…I don’t know anyone can make an argument that you were not…maybe they can. But you’re about as progressive and pro-woman and whatever as anyone in the EvPsych field, whatever related field, and I know so many people who would go up in arms about that statement. That it’s anti-woman. But it doesn’t have to be.
Christopher:
What?
Tucker:
Women are like buses. If you don’t catch one, you’ll get the next one. I guess you can say it in a very misogynistic way? You can say the same thing and mean two totally different things. You can say that in a way that’s, like, women are fungible. Each one is the same as the next, etc. But that’s not what you mean at all.
Christopher:
That’s not what I mean. No. What I mean is that if you get your shit together, the world is full of people who will love you. That’s what I mean.
Tucker:
Exactly. For who you are.
Christopher:
And there’s a limit to how many of them you’ll have time to know or to have sex with or to be in relationships and all that. But there’s not a limit to how many opportunities there are.
Tucker:
My guess is you probably won’t have a problem answering the question, but…Let me set the question up. Describe yourself in high school. In honest terms. Not flattering and not making misery where it wasn’t. What were you really like in high school? What archetype did you fit closest into?
Christopher:
Well, I told you I went to three different high schools. I was the constant new kid. I was not an athlete. I was in the smart kids, depending on which school. ‘Cause the first school was in western Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh, so I was probably the top two or three students in terms of testing, etc.
Tucker:
Intelligence, whatever. High school kids don’t give a shit. That doesn’t give you any status.
Christopher:
No. That’s 9th grade, too. Then, I moved to Fairfield, Connecticut, the best public high school in the country in those years. Teachers with PhD’s and a lot of kids, their fathers were in Wall Street or Manhattan, whatever. So, it’s a lot of really smart kids. So, I was toward the bottom of that group, but I was accepted into the group of the brain kids. There was some cool associated with that, but not a lot, really. Then, I moved to Cazenovia, after this girl dumped me and all that, and then I was in this little rural school where I was, like, the stand-out genius. That status changed depending on the context I was in, which has interesting implications for the fact that I traveled the rest of my life. I’ve been the new kid everywhere. I liked being the outsider.
Tucker:
So, you were sort of usually a loner. Not always.
Christopher:
A loner and the way I dealt with the pain and dislocation was by reading a lot, by focusing on what I was good at.
Tucker:
Smart. Reader. Loner. What were you into? What were some things? Were you into Dungeons & Dragons?
Christopher:
No. I was into literature, man. I went through phases where for six months, I’d read nothing but Russian literature, and then I discovered Joseph Conrad, and it was like I’ll read every fucking Joseph Conrad and Herman Melville and whatever. And the literature I gravitated toward was, like, intellectual travel stuff, like Joseph Conrad.
Tucker:
The shit that no one else is reading in high school.
Christopher:
In Connecticut, because there was a lot going on, there were a lot of…Here’s the thing, I was hyper-sexual, as I think most adolescent boys are. I didn’t figure out how to jerk off till I was fifteen.
Tucker:
I actually learned at seventeen. Isn’t that fucked up?
Christopher:
Are you circumcised?
Tucker:
Yeah.
Christopher:
So am I. And the reason I didn’t figure it out was—
Tucker:
No one tells you.
Christopher:
Well, no one tells you you need lube. You see everyone just going jerk, jerk, jerk, and if you’re circumcised, you go jerk, jerk, jerk, and it fucking hurts. If you’re uncircumcised, it doesn’t hurt, ‘cause you’ve got all the loose skin. Nobody tells you that. I was reading National Lampoon, and there was some story in there…
Tucker:
A joke about lube, and you try it and it’s like, yeah.
Christopher:
About mayonnaise, bro.
Tucker:
Fucking a jar of mayonnaise?
Christopher:
No, you use mayonnaise. And I was like, “Huh?” Nobody was home. I went downstairs, got mayonnaise, and I was like…it was like I saw Jesus. I’ll tell you what, a fucking egg salad sandwich still gets me…So, I was with this woman, my first girlfriend, and she had…this is my first long-term sexual relationship.
Tucker:
How old were you?
Christopher:
Fifteen. I had had sex with my babysitter when I was eleven. That was interesting. Then, from eleven to fifteen…
Tucker:
That’s terrible, man. That dry spell must have driven you crazy.
Christopher:
‘Cause I knew what I was missing. Yeah. so, I was simultaneously ahead of my age ‘cause I knew. But I intellectualized sex. I was really interested in figuring it out. This woman would orgasm if I went down on her, but not from intercourse. I was like, “How? What is going on?” So, I bought all these books and would read and I got this lockbox and I had all these vibrators and Ben Wa Balls and French ticklers and all this. it was an intellectual exercise for me.
Tucker:
So, here’s the point I’m trying to make, though. The reason I asked the question is, like…so, in high school, you’re a loner. Super intellectual, super smart, very bookish, not into sports, not into popular shit.
Christopher:
Zits. Braces.
Tucker:
Zits. Braces. Right. So, you were not doing well in a lot of social categories, right? So, now you’re fifty, you’re a best-selling author, you’ve got a wonderful beautiful wife who, by the way, exists. When I was doing research, it was the funniest thing ever. She had a lot of stake for a woman who he made up at dinner. Just so the listeners know, one of the critiques of Chris’s book was that he made up his wife’s black – she’s not even actually black, she’s Indian. Whatever. She’s dark-colored and she’s as multicultural as a human can be, and the argument was that he made her up to justify all the stuff in his book, which is preposterous. But anyway, best-selling author, beautiful amazing wife. You graduated high school at 18, so in the forty, thirty years since, how many women do you think you’ve been with? Just a range, a decent range.
Christopher:
Sexually?
Tucker:
Yeah. What other way can I talk about?
Christopher:
Maybe…80-120?
Tucker:
Right. So, you’re in triple digits. And this was a dude who…you maybe weren’t the worst nerd or outcast in high school, but basically totally miserable, probably thought you had no future with women. You might have been a little different ‘cause of certain things that happened, but a dude who was just utterly frustrated and miserable has now not just done well, but done great. Tons of women, tons of situations that are great, tons of fulfillment. All different types of fulfillment, right? Sexual, intellectual, whatever. You actually made the point, most guys can only see the misery directly in front of them and can’t see any actual path or way they’re gonna be anything other than a miserable loser, in their mind. Know what I’m saying? High school is not designed to help guys either do well in the moment or figure out how to do well later. It’s a fucked up system.
Christopher:
And that was the point I was making earlier. Try to have faith that the things about you that are great are going to get their time on stage later.
Tucker:
Right. You can do some things to make high school better, but for a lot of guys, high school’s just gonna be fucking awful and there’s just kind of nothing you can do about it.
Christopher:
Yeah. And the thing is, because women develop sexually more rapidly than men do, nobody has the power of a hot 15- or 16-year-old girl. I mean, that is like…I studied German for three years because Judy Gumph took German, man. That’s how bad it was. And I suck at languages. I was always struggling to not fail out because Judy fucking Gumph was in that class. But, Judy Gumph was going out with a guy who was twenty-four, had a Camaro. So, that’s the other misery of being an adolescent guy. Adolescent girls don’t need to deal with you.
Tucker:
They don’t want to, either, ‘cause you’re usually awkward and gawky and stupid and annoying.
Christopher:
Right. Why should they? And now, if an older woman takes pity on you and wants to help you out, that’s considered sexual abuse these days in America. When I had my thing with the babysitter, she was sixteen. I’m eleven.
Tucker:
Something’s got to be wrong with that girl. Hooking up with an 11-year-old.
Christopher:
I mean. Who knows, dude? She had a boyfriend. His name was Chris. I knew him. I think she just thought I was cute. I was a dorky, gawky, ridiculous teenager, but I was a cute little kid.
Tucker:
Yeah. You’re not quite in the sort of awkward stage.
Christopher:
No zits yet. No big hair. No weird, seventies fashion. So, I think she was like, “This kid’s funny. He’s interesting. He keeps looking at my tits. I’ll let him…”
Tucker:
I fantasized all day about babysitters. I never hooked up with any of them before. We’ve got a few minutes left. What are things you see guys doing wrong that are really easily correctable? You see them and you’re just like, “Wow. What are you doing, man?” Two seconds, they could change or improve. The things that they could easily correct or make better, it can be young, old, anything like that.
Christopher:
Well, it’s repeating what we’ve been saying, but play the long game. Not the short game. Don’t try to get laid tonight. Try to set up your life in a way that you’re gonna meet women who like guys like you.
Tucker:
That’s actually a good point. We talk about that a ton on our site, the stuff we’re writing. But, what does that actually mean specifically?
Christopher:
You’re hungry. Are you gonna cut down that cherry tree to get the cherries on top or are you gonna water the tree and let that tree ripen so you’ll have buckets and buckets of berries?
Tucker:
Great metaphor. 18-year-olds are idiots, so specifically with action. A great example you used that we didn’t really hit on well enough was: figure out what you like doing and find the groups of people who do it that have women. So, like, working out is a great example. You can work out alone at a gym or you can join Cross fit where there are a ton of women. Or move to places where there are more women than men.
Christopher:
Yeah. Again, that’s not focusing on the immediate. Whether it’s your location, like, I’m gonna go to this bar. It’s Friday night. I’m gonna get laid. Maybe you’re just spinning your wheels and wasting your time.
Tucker:
Right. ‘Cause there’s fifty other dudes there and thirty girls.
Christopher:
Right. That’s not maximizing if you’re not good in a bar situation.
Tucker:
Right. If you’re not good in bars, don’t do that.
Christopher:
So, if you’re good at music, be in a band. Get on stage. One thing that I think women respond to is men who distinguish themselves in some way.
Tucker:
Men that are effective at something. Almost anything.
Christopher:
Almost anything, right. It can be building a brick wall, but you build a funky brick wall in your apartment and you have a party and they’re like, “Who built that wall? That’s funky.” “Well, I did.” “Really? You’re different from everyone else here now.”
Tucker:
It means you can actually do something. If you can actually do something, anything, there’s going to be a woman. Even if she doesn’t care about what it is you do, she’s gonna be attracted to the fact that you can do something.
Christopher:
Exactly. Demonstrate your talent, your difference, your distinction, however you can do it. And everybody’s got talents, right? Not everyone’s tall enough to play basketball, and even if you are tall, that doesn’t mean you need to play basketball, but you’re good at something. You’re funny. You’re smart. You’re good-looking. You’re athletic. You’re talented on some level somewhere. Focus on that. Don’t focus on trying to get laid. It’s a two-step process. It’s not a one-step process. I think that’s the mistake people make. They think, “Tonight, I’m gonna go out and pick someone up.”
Tucker:
Exactly. They think it’s directly transactional. Like, I have to talk to this girl to have sex with her instead of thinking I have to be attractive to women and then I have to go be around women in a natural way. Then build relationships with them, even if they’re short-term, obviously. You don’t have to date someone to sleep with them. Even if they’re super short-term so that then we can go and have sex.
Christopher:
Right. And then, when you’re successful, as you will be, be respectful of the women. Don’t talk about it. Don’t tell people. Be cool.
Tucker:
Let’s end on this. Tell me specifically, what does being respectful to women mean in the regards you’re talking about? What do those actions look like? You just said a few, but let’s hit those. So, obviously, if I hook up with a girl and then go tell all my friends, “Hey, man, this girl sucked my dick and it was amazing,” I will get more status with my friends but they’re probably gonna talk about it to her. She’s gonna be potentially embarrassed or hurt and gonna tell her friends. Then, I’m the asshole who kisses and tells.
Christopher:
Also, if that gets you more status with your friends, maybe those aren’t such great friends. Because I think a lot of guys, even at twenty, recognize that the dude who comes and tells everybody he got his dick sucked is kind of…that’s not so cool.
Tucker:
Yeah. Sort of, yeah.
Christopher:
I mean, I know it’s cool, but there are ways to say it. “Hey, did you have a good time with her last night?” “Yeah. We had a good time.” Just nod and shut up. You know? ‘Cause everyone knows that means you got your dick sucked. You don’t need to say it.
Tucker:
You’re making a really good point. You can get a little burst of status by saying, “Oh, she sucked my dick” or you can get a lot of status over a long term by being the guy who’s like, “Hm. Whatever.” And your friends razz you or whatever, and then they might find out two years later, “Man, he hooked up with all those girls.” Then, you’re a baller. The ballers don’t have to tell people they’re ballers.
Christopher:
And is it more important for you to get some status boost with your friends or to be the guy who becomes a leader amo