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OT: "The mike was very bad... - 3 Updates
Trump--Iraq war - 2 Updates
Donald Trump is a petulant child - 1 Update
OT: 'there was no contest: Donald Trump was by far more dishonest than Hillary Clinton.' - 2 Updates
Do any of you have a fucking life - 1 Update
OT: What Trump has lied about in the last 24 hours - 1 Update
OT: "The mike was very bad...
Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>: Sep 28 10:25PM -0700
...but maybe it was good enough to year breathing"
Seriously: this guy isn't bright enough to lie convincingly.
Dene <gdstrue@aol.com>: Sep 28 11:44PM -0700
...but maybe it was good enough to year breathing"
Seriously: this guy isn't bright enough to lie convincingly.
---------------
And your accomplishments are????
Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>: Sep 29 01:12AM -0700
On 2016-09-28 11:44 PM, Dene wrote:
> Seriously: this guy isn't bright enough to lie convincingly.
> ---------------
> And your accomplishments are????
Am I running for high office?
But that seems to be an accession to the point I was making.
:-)
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Trump--Iraq war
BobbyK <bknight@Conramp.net>: Sep 28 09:26PM -0500
We need to end this argument. Whether or not he actually supported
going into the Iraqi war is just a matter of opinion.
Either side has an argument about what "yeah, I guess so" actually
means and neither side can honestly refute the other. There are many
more important lies and gaffes that are definite.
Then there are arguments and opinions that we should bring up that can
make a point. Here's a really important one, and scary as hell.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-does-donald-trump-really-think-about-using-nuclear-weapons-n655536
Carbon <nobrac@nospam.tampabay.rr.com>: Sep 29 02:47AM
On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 21:26:54 -0500, BobbyK wrote:
> argument about what "yeah, I guess so" actually means and neither side
> can honestly refute the other. There are many more important lies and
> gaffes that are definite.
I do think Trump's lie about not supporting the invasion is important. The
man is an inveterate liar and this is as good an example as any.
> Then there are arguments and opinions that we should bring up that can
> make a point. Here's a really important one, and scary as hell.
> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-does-donald-trump-really-think-
about-using-nuclear-weapons-n655536
In addition to being a liar, Trump is as clueless about foreign policy as
Sarah Palin. The poor fool literally knows nothing.
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Donald Trump is a petulant child
Carbon <nobrac@nospam.tampabay.rr.com>: Sep 28 10:14PM
On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 13:32:10 -0500, Moderate wrote:
> Idiot. Holt accused Trump of lying twice. Holt was wrong both times.
You only think that because you're a half-wit.
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OT: 'there was no contest: Donald Trump was by far more dishonest than Hillary Clinton.'
Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>: Sep 28 10:52AM -0700
<https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/27/donald-trump-said-34-false-things-at-first-presidential-debate.html>
Donald Trump, Republican:
1) Falsely said "you're wrong" when the moderator told him a judge ruled
New York City's "stop and frisk" program unconstitutional. (That
happened in 2013.)
2) Falsely said he had four business bankruptcies. (Clinton was correct
— it's six.)
3) Falsely said he "never said" that pregnancy is an inconvenience to
employers. (In 2004, he said precisely that: pregnancy is "a wonderful
thing for the woman, it's a wonderful thing for the husband, it's
certainly an inconvenience for a business. And whether people want to
say that or not, the fact is it is an inconvenience for a person that is
running a business.")
4) Falsely said "I did not. I did not" to Clinton's charge that he
thinks Climate change is a "hoax perpetrated by the Chinese." (He wrote
on Twitter in 2012: "The concept of global warming was created by and
for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive." In
2014, he tweeted, "Snowing in Texas and Louisiana, record setting
freezing temperatures throughout the country and beyond. Global warming
is an expensive hoax!")
5) Falsely said, "Wrong, wrong" when Clinton said he supported the
invasion of Iraq. (He publicly supported the war; there is no evidence
he changed his mind until after the war.)
6) Falsely said, "They did an article in a major magazine, shortly after
the war started. I think in '04. But they did an article which had me
totally against the war in Iraq." (The article, in Esquire, was not
"shortly after the war started"— it was 17 months into the war.)
7) Falsely characterized interviews about Iraq with Howard Stern and
Neil Cavuto: "The record shows that I'm right. When I did an interview
with Howard Stern, very lightly, first time anyone's asked me that, I
said, very lightly, I don't know, maybe, who knows? Essentially. I then
did an interview with Neil Cavuto." (Trump did not say "I don't know,
maybe, who knows" to Stern in 2002; in fact, he said, "Yeah, I guess so.
I wish the first time it was done correctly." In the interview with
Cavuto, he did not take an actual position, saying: "Well, he has either
got to do something or not do something."
8) Falsely asserted that Clinton has "been fighting ISIS (her) entire
adult life." (ISIS was founded after Clinton turned 50.)
9) Falsely said, "And now you want to approve Trans-Pacific
Partnership." (Clinton made a significant false claim on this subject
too; see below. But it is false that she "now" wants to approve it.
Though she supported it as secretary of state, she is campaigning in
opposition to it.)
10) Falsely said murder has increased in New York City under the current
mayor who opposes stop and frisk: "Murders are up. All right. You check
it." (In Bill de Blasio's first year, 2014, the number of murders hit
another historic low: 328. The city is still near that pace; there have
been 246 so far this year, down from last year.)
11) Falsely said, "As far as my tax returns, you don't learn that much
from tax returns. That I can tell you. You learn a lot from financial
disclosure." (Tax returns provide several additional kinds of detailed
information.)
12) Falsely said of his tax returns, "I don't mind releasing. I'm under
a routine audit. And it'll be released. And as soon as the audit's
finished, it will be released." (Trump is also refusing to release tax
returns from 2002 to 2008, years his lawyer says are no longer under
audit. One of his sons has acknowledged that he is not releasing the
returns because it would hurt his political "narrative.")
13) Falsely said, "ISIS formed in this vacuum created by Barack Obama
and Secretary Clinton." (ISIS was created before Obama became president
and Clinton became secretary of state. While it gained strength during
their tenures, it is false to say it "formed" then.)
14) Falsely said he "just got today" the endorsement of the Fraternal
Order of Police. (The endorsement was delivered 10 days ago.)
15) Falsely said, "We have a Fed that's doing political things. This
Janet Yellen of the Fed. The Fed is doing political — by keeping the
interest rates at this level." (There is no evidence that Yellen has
kept rates low to help Obama or Clinton, as Trump is suggesting. In
fact, he himself endorsed her strategy on CNBC in May.)
16) Falsely said Clinton was uttering "lies" when she said he had said
nuclear war in East Asia would be "fine," and that he had said "have a
good time, folks." (In Wisconsin in April, Trump said he was fine with
Japan obtaining nuclear weapons for a war against North Korea, and
added: "It would be a terrible thing but if they do, they do . . . Good
luck. Enjoy yourself, folks.")
17) Falsely said, "My father gave me a very small loan in 1975, and I
built it into a company that's worth many, many billions of dollars."
(Trump is greatly understating his father's help. The loan, he has
previously said, was $1 million. Journalists have discovered that he
actually received $14 million in loans from his father as he started his
career.)
18) Falsely claimed, on the "birther" conspiracy, that "nobody was
pressing it" after 2011. (Trump repeatedly tweeted and spoke about the
subject in the following years. In 2013, for example, he tweeted, "How
amazing, the State Health Director who verified copies of Obama's "birth
certificate" died in plane crash today. All others lived.")
19) Falsely said the U.S. trade deficit "with all of the countries that
we do business with" is "almost $800 billion a year." (The trade deficit
last year was $532 billion. It rises to $746 billion when only goods are
counted, not the services at which the U.S. excels, but Trump did not
specify he was excluding the U.S.'s strength.)
20) Falsely said "wrong, wrong" when Clinton told him, "You even at one
time suggested that you would try to negotiate down the national debt of
the United States." (While he quickly backtracked from this May
suggestion, he did make it at one time.)
21) Falsely said, "In addition, I was just endorsed by ICE. They've
never endorsed anybody before on immigration. I was just endorsed by
ICE." (Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a government agency that
does not endorse candidates. Trump was actually endorsed by a union of
some of its employees, the National Immigration and Customs Enforcement
(ICE) Council.)
22) Falsely denied that he has been "praiseworthy of Vladimir Putin."
(Trump has praised Putin repeatedly, even calling him a superior leader
to Obama.)
23) Falsely said, "They're using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild
China." (This makes no sense — the U.S. is a net borrower from China,
not the other way around, as Trump himself frequently notes.)
24) Falsely claimed Clinton has "no plan" on the economy. (He can
reasonably allege that it is a bad plan, but it exists in great detail.)
25) Falsely said NATO had not "focus(ed) on terror" before he urged it
to do so. (From Politifact: "NATO involvement in counter-terrorism
issued its first formal declaration on terrorism in 1980, and it became
a significant issue for the alliance on Sept. 11, 2001, said Lisa Sawyer
Samp, a senior fellow in the international security program of the
Center for Strategic and International Studies.")
26) Falsely said of China, "They're devaluing their currency, and
there's nobody in our government to fight them." (The International
Monetary Fund declared last year that China's currency is "no longer
devalued." Binyamin Applebaum of the New York Times wrote: "There is no
evidence that China is presently engaging in currency devaluation.")
27) Falsely said, of nuclear weapons, "Russia has been expanding their —
they have a much newer capability than we do. We have not been updating
from the new standpoint." (In fact, the U.S. is currently in the midst
of a trillion-dollar effort the New York Times has called a "nationwide
wave of atomic revitalization that includes plans for a new generation
of weapon carriers.")
28) Falsely claimed that Daesh (also known as the Islamic State) has "a
lot of the oil in Libya." (Independent experts say this is false. "They
wanted to disrupt it, destroy it, not to run it," energy analyst Matthew
Bey told CNBC earlier this month. "They had control of fields around
(the city of) Sirte for a while, but they have since been mostly pushed
from that area, and never had control of any upstream activity.")
29) Falsely alleged that the Clinton campaign played a high-level role
in the birther conspiracy theory: "Patti Solis Doyle was on Wolf Blitzer
saying that this happened." (Trump completely mischaracterized her CNN
remarks; she had said that a campaign volunteer who forwarded a birther
email was fired.)
30) Falsely described Mexico's value-added tax as a kind of trade
barrier: "When we sell into Mexico, there's a tax. When they sell in —
automatic, 16 percent, approximately. When they sell into us, there's no
tax. It's a defective agreement." (This is a gross misunderstanding of
how a VAT works.)
31) Falsely said, "She spent hundreds of millions of dollars on negative
ads on me." (Clinton has spent about $100 million in total advertising,
CBS reports.)
32) Falsely said of U.S. companies hoarding cash overseas: "They can't
bring their money back into our country because of bureaucratic red tape
because they can't get together." (The issue is the high U.S. corporate
tax rate, not bureaucracy; Trump did note the tax rate a little earlier.)
33) Falsely suggested that Ford's outsourcing of small car production to
Mexico will mean "thousands of jobs leaving Michigan." (Ford is shifting
the production of new products to the affected plants and not cutting
any jobs.)
34) Falsely called Palm Beach, Florida "probably the wealthiest
community there is in the world." (Palm Beach is not even the wealthiest
community in America, let alone the world. The Palm Beach Post put it at
number three in the country; other rankings, with different measures of
wealth, have it lower.)
35) Misleadingly said to Clinton, "You are going to approve one of the
biggest tax increases in history." (Clinton's increases are large, but
they are only on wealthy people.)
36) Misleadingly said, "In New York City, stop and frisk, we had 2,200
murders, and stop and frisk brought it down to 500 murders." (It is a
great exaggeration to attribute the entire decline to stop and frisk.
Crime declined massively around the country during this period,
including in cities that did not use the practice.)
Hillary Clinton, Democrat
1) Falsely denied that she called the Trans-Pacific Partnership "the
gold standard" or that she had backed the deal before she opposed it.
(She praised TPP at length as secretary of state.)
2) Falsely said the "only years" of Trump's tax returns that have been
publicly released "showed that he didn't pay any federal income tax."
(The documents show Trump did pay taxes in three years in the 1970s.)
3) Falsely said, "When I became secretary of state, Iran was weeks away
from having enough nuclear material to form a bomb." (Independent
experts say Iran was not that close.)
4) Falsely said her tax plan "would not add a penny to the debt, and
(Trump's) plans would add $5 trillion to the debt." (The Committee for a
Responsible Federal Budget, the group that estimated Trump's plan would
add $5 trillion to the debt, also estimated that Clinton's would add
$200 billion.)
5) Misleadingly said Trump said "women don't deserve equal pay unless
they do as good a job as men." (This is an exaggeration. When asked in
2015, "If you become president will a woman make the same as a man," he
responded, "You're gonna make the same if you do as good a job." He did
not go so far as to say women "don't deserve" equal pay.)
6) Misleadingly claimed, "I was so shocked when Donald publicly invited
Putin to hack into Americans. That is just unacceptable." (This is a
highly plausible interpretation of Trump's words about her own deleted
emails — "Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the
30,000 emails that are missing" — but Clinton is wrong to suggest he had
invited Russia to hack into "Americans" in general.)
Carbon <nobrac@nospam.tampabay.rr.com>: Sep 28 10:09PM
On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 10:52:40 -0700, Alan Baker wrote:
> <https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/09/27/donald-trump-said-34-
> false-things-at-first-presidential-debate.html>
OTOH many of his fans are too stunned to care.
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Do any of you have a fucking life
Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org>: Sep 28 08:55PM
YOU LIVE HERE!
ESPECIALLY THAT JOHN JO AND CARBON JO
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OT: What Trump has lied about in the last 24 hours
Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>: Sep 28 10:45AM -0700
On 2016-09-28 10:26 AM, BobbyK wrote:
>>> <http://chartlikecharts.tumblr.com/post/151014150805/what-trump-lied-about-at-the-debate-monday-nighta>
>> <http://chartlikecharts.tumblr.com/post/151056511570/what-trump-has-lied-about-in-the-last-24-hours>
> These charts are too busy to be of any use.
Perhaps...
:-)
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