Aired January 17, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, upscale Texas suburbs. Police race to the scene after a hysterical 911 call, 4:40 AM. What`s inside the huge Tudor $4.5 million home? Cops find Daddy shot dead in his own bed after an armed intruder dressed in all black breaks in, beats Mommy in the face with a wrench and opens fire on Daddy. All the while, their 4-year-old little girl asleep on the family sofa nearby.
Bombshell tonight. Neighbors` grainy video surveillance reveals no such intruder, no prints on the murder weapon, and neither robbery nor sex attack as motive. But now Mommy changes the story, revealing there was no intruder, no beating, no late-night attack, that, in fact, it was her own husband who pulls the trigger on himself. That`s right, she claims he committed suicide. But are the cops buying it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody was in my house!
This is a truthful statement. "Somebody" was in her house. This is not to reveal gender.
911 OPERATOR: Somebody what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance! Please! (INAUDIBLE)
Note that "I need" and not "my husband needs..." This can sometimes be the language of guilt, where the guilty party, herself, is in need of some kind of help.
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, I can`t understand you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband was just shot. He was shot in the head!
Not to say that "somebody just show my husband" which now indicates passivity. He was not "just shot"; somebody had to shoot him.
Note that "just" indicates immediate time.
911 OPERATOR: Your husband was shot in the head?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance!
Again, "I need" is a request for assistance for the caller, not the victim. This is the 2nd time.
911 OPERATOR: We`ve got an ambulance coming to you, as well, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Did this happen in the house (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it happened in the room, in the bed!
Note "it happened" is also passive language. Passivity is sometimes used to conceal identity or responsibility.
Note "the room" and not "my bedroom"
911 OPERATOR: It happened in a bed? Did he do it to himself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!
911 OPERATOR: No?
The operator may not have heard, or the operator may be surprised at the lack of information being given.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door is open. My little girl`s on the couch.
Doors open/closing can sometimes indicate childhood sexual abuse in the caller's history.
911 OPERATOR: Who did it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard.
Passive language, again. Not, "he hit me really hard" which, if "he" did not do it, would be a direct lie. Most people do not lie directly, but will edit out information.
Interesting footnote:
Being assaulted is a very "up close and personal" thing is a person's life. Passivity would be expected, for example, if a rock fell from a truck, or wind blew down a branch, or an injury was not deliberately inflicted, making it not only of unknown precise origin, but unintentional, which is far less personal. This is not lost on the operator, who cannot help but ask:
911 OPERATOR: You were hit in the head?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: You don`t know who it was that hit you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
If the subject is lying, she is smart to say "no" and say nothing else. Already, however, we see that she appears to be concealing the identity of the assailant. A good example of this is with Darlie Routier. Deceptive people will appear to do linguistic backflips just to avoid a direct lie.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know what they looked like, if they were male or female?
This is a question that should not have even had to been asked!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
Note that the gender is sensitive: the subject calls to Divinity rather than answer.
Even in this short clip, there is enough to consider deception.
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Police race to the scene after a hysterical 911 call. Cops find Daddy shot to death in his own bed after an armed intruder dressed in all black breaks in, beats Mommy in the face with a wrench and opens fire.
We are taking your calls. Ellie Jostad, when police get there -- this is 4:40 AM -- what do they find?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Well, they find the victim, Gregory Williams, lying on his back in bed. He is bleeding from the mouth, nose and one of his ears. He`s got a gunshot wound, just one gunshot wound to his right temple. They say that his right arm was sort of underneath the covers, his left arm dangling off the bed.
His wife tells them, you know, this intruder broke in, hit her on her head. She`s got a small little bruise on her forehead. She said she barely got a look at the guy before he made it out the door.
GRACE: So she says 4:40 AM, a guy dressed in all black breaks in -- police find no forced entry -- comes in. Nothing`s stolen. There`s no sex attack. Why did she change her story to reveal he actually committed suicide, Ellie?
JOSTAD: Well, apparently, police brought in scent dogs. They were checking out this intruder theory, trying to find the scent of an intruder in the home, were unsuccessful at that. We later learned that the neighbor`s surveillance video didn`t show anybody approaching the home.
When they confronted her with that evidence, they say she changed her story, said, Actually, I was asleep in the other room with my daughter. I heard the gunshot. My husband committed suicide. I didn`t want the little girl to find out. I didn`t want the shame of a suicide. So I staged this whole thing to cover.
GRACE: To Domingo Ramirez, Jr., senior reporter with "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Domingo, what did we learn? Had the father, had the husband had depression? Had he had prior suicide attempts? Were there money problems so devastating, he thought he was better off dead than alive?
DOMINGO RAMIREZ, JR., "FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM" (via telephone): There was no indication from police that Gregory Williams suffered any of those at all. Everything seemed to be going fine. Police had not even made any calls to that house, like domestic problems or anything like that.
GRACE: Interesting. I want to go back to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, I want to go talk about the evidence at the scene. Daddy was lying in his own bed, correct?
JOSTAD: That`s correct.
GRACE: I assume he was right-handed?
JOSTAD: Yes. According to family, he was right-handed.
GRACE: OK, so yes. What side of the bed was he lying on?
JOSTAD: He`s on the left side of the bed.
GRACE: Right-handed -- and what side -- it was a shot to the head. What side of the head sustained the shot?
JOSTAD: Right temple.
GRACE: Right temple. Important. If he`s on the left side of the bed and he`s shot on the right side of the head -- - was there stippling, was there stippling gunshot burn around the wound?
JOSTAD: Don`t know.
GRACE: Don`t know. OK, unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Holly Hughes, former prosecutor turned defense attorney out of Atlanta, John Manuelian, defense attorney joining us out of L.A.
Holly, before you became a defense attorney, you were a prosecutor of violent crimes. Now, isn`t it true that gunshot residue can be found from a point-blank range, which is basically skin contact, to up to three feet away from the body, but stippling or burning is typically found with a contact wound? Yes?
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That is true, Nancy.
GRACE: So if there`s stippling, Holly, that would be consistent with a suicide. But what if there`s not stippling, Holly? What if there`s just gunshot residue?
HUGHES: Typically, then, it that the muzzle of the gun is further away than 12 inches. But she`s admitted she wiped his hands. It`s possible she wiped his temple and wiped away the stippling, as well.
GRACE: You know, John Manuelian, the fact that she may have wiped away his hands to cover up a suicide -- granted, he would not have gunshot residue on his hands. But we have no evidence she actually wiped the bloody entrance wound on the side of his head, which means if she didn`t wipe it and this was a suicide, there would be powder burns. That`s a slang term for stippling. Agree or disagree?
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Agreed.
GRACE: If it`s not a contact wound, Dr. Carter, that is not a typically suicide, is it, Dr. Carter.
DR. JOYE CARTER, CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s correct. It is not a typical suicide entrance gunshot wound.
GRACE: Explain.
CARTER: Well, when you have a suicide wound, usually, it`s a contact wound. All the elements in the gunshot are driven into the wound itself. When the gun is held away from the body, the other materials that come out with a gunshot wound embed around the gunshot wound, within up to three feet away from the body. So this is not a typical suicide wound.
GRACE: Exactly. Let`s go to W.W. Tripp, former police commander. Woody, come on, think about it! The logistics of a man lying in bed -- lying in bed, all right -- and I actually had a case where the spouse shot his wife, said it was suicide, in a very upscale area of Atlanta, and when I got to looking at the scene, I found blood spatter under the pillow. That`s physically impossible for her to have been lying on the pillow at the time she shot herself and the blood got under her pillow. Spatter -- not leaking, spatter. Impossible.
In this case, the logistics of shooting yourself in the head 18 inches away -- that is not how a suicide goes down, Tripp.
WOODROW TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER: You`re absolutely right, Nancy. And I also had a case where a boyfriend claimed that his girlfriend killed herself. Well, we had two problems with that. One, the close contact gunshot wound was not there, as you would have with a suicide, where you hold that weapon or that barrel directly to your skin.
And secondly, and more importantly, the trajectory of the bullet did not coincide with the story that he relayed. Solved it.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen, Tripp, listen with me to the 911 call. Let`s see what we learn.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Did it happen in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it happened in the room, in the bed!
Take note that she enters into the language of the operator. This is not the "Free Editing Proces" where someone speaks for herself.
For example:
"Did you kill John Doe?"
"I did not kill John Doe" is not a Reliable Denial because the subject parroted or repeated back, the language of the Interviewer.
It does not mean that he is guilty, it simply means that this statement is not to be deemed "reliable" in analysis.
911 OPERATOR: It happened in the bed? Did he do it to himself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
911 OPERATOR: No?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door is open and my little girl is on the couch.
911 OPERATOR: Who did it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard. (INAUDIBLE) Somebody was in the house!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michele Williams sounded hysterical in her 911 call to report that an intruder shot her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he was shot in the head!
JOSTAD: Do you know if they were male or female?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a male.
NOTE the use of "it" instead of "He"
911 OPERATOR: It was a male?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know anybody that would try and get into your house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Did this happen in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it happened in the room, in the bed!
911 OPERATOR: It happened in the bed? Did he do it to himself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
911 OPERATOR: No?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The door is open and my little girl is on the couch.
911 OPERATOR: Who did it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need an ambulance! Please!
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, I can`t understand you. Can you take a deep breath and tell me what`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 911 call to report that an intruder shot Greg Williams in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shot in the head! Somebody was in the house!
Additional words give us critically important information. In order for him to be shot in the head in the bedroom, someone would have to be in the house. This is technically "useless" information, making it "doubly important" to us.
This is an indication that the subject (caller) is attempting to persuade that an intruder did this. The attempt to persuade, alone, is significant. Why would she have a need to persuade, unless no such intruder existed? See Patsy Ramsey. No intruder there, either.
911 OPERATOR: Somebody`s been in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) shot in the head!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers smelled deception.
911 OPERATOR: Who did it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. I got hit really hard.
911 OPERATOR: You were hit in the head?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is very suspicious.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know if it was male or female?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a male.
911 OPERATOR: It was a male?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The door obviously had not been forced, as Williams claimed.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know anybody that would try and get into your house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was charged with murder, tampering with evidence, and giving false statements to police.
911 OPERATOR: Did you hear anything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard (INAUDIBLE) got up to check on the baby on the couch! And I got hit on the head!
911 OPERATOR: Do you know what hit you in the head?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
911 OPERATOR: Do know if anybody`s still in the house with you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Did they run away?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they went out the bedroom door.
911 OPERATOR: They went out the bedroom door?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Police race to the scene of a $4.5 million Tudor-style home, three-car garage, pool, the works. This neighborhood`s never even seen a broken window, much less a murder, a suicide or a homicide.
What about this neighborhood, Michael Board? What can you tell me?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI (via telephone): Well, it`s a beautiful gated community in one of the most exclusive suburbs in the Dallas area. They did check a neighbor`s security camera when Michele Williams initially made the (INAUDIBLE) that someone had broken into her home. They were trying to figure out how they can find out, try to find suspects.
So what they did was they went to the neighbor`s house, who had a security camera up, and they looked through that security camera. All they found was one person all this time, and it was a newspaper delivery man. So there`s no way somebody could have broken into this home like Michele Williams initially told the police.
GRACE: You know what, Michael Board? You`re right. And I`m just wondering about the sequence of events, Domingo Ramirez -- Domingo joining us from "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram." Did they confront her with that neighbor`s surveillance video before she changed her story to say her husband committed suicide?
RAMIREZ: Well, they used that surveillance and the fact that they had brought a dog in to see if an intruder had been in, and then the dog did not sense an intruder there. So they also used the surveillance camera to say there`s no other vehicle in the area.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest Kathy Williams. This is the husband, Gregory Williams`s, ex-wife. Kathy, thank you for being with us. How stunned were you when you discovered Gregory was dead, shot dead in his own bed?
KATHY WILLIAMS, VICTIM`S EX-WIFE (via telephone): We were really stunned. I had to tell our 14-year-old daughter that the night before she had seen him, within 12 hours, he was gone.
GRACE: What did you think of the claim of suicide, Kathy?
WILLIAMS: No. Greg would never, never take his life.
GRACE: Explain.
KATHY: He was too strong of a man. He liked life too much. He liked to have fun. He liked to live life. And he loved his children and he would not do that to his children.
GRACE: Kathy, when you say he loved life too much -- you know, even on days when we are overwhelmed or we think we`re depressed or we think we`ve got the world`s problems on our back, we have our children. When we`re not strong, we have to be strong for them. How many children does Gregory have?
WILLIAMS: Greg has two biological children, and her children are his stepchildren. He has my oldest daughter as a stepchild that he raised since she was 2, and she`s 22 now.
GRACE: Would he ever leave his children behind, Kathy?
WILLIAMS: No, ma`am. We had a family member commit suicide December in 2010. And I`ve seen Greg cry three times in 20 years, and that was one of them. And he told our daughter that -- never to do this and how angry he was at him for the way he did this and how he left things unfinished.
GRACE: Do you know, Kathy, the state of his marital relationship?
WILLIAMS: As far as I knew, there were no problems. We saw them the night before. His wife and his daughter came to our daughter`s choir concert at school. He went over. He was very pleasant. He videotaped her concert. I saw him give her a hug and a kiss good-bye. He walked by us, and you know, my family and I, said, Have a good evening, we`ll talk to you later. And that was the last time I talked with him.
GRACE: You know, he and Michele sure were living high on the hog, a $4.5 million home, three-car garage, the pool, the works.
WILLIAMS: Greg worked very hard for what he had. He worked 12 to 15 hours a day sometimes. He started his business from ground up while we were married.
GRACE: And what was his business, Kathy?
WILLIAMS: IT, computers, networking, all that goes with that.
GRACE: And how did he get hooked up with Michele?
WILLIAMS: To be honest, I don`t know. I think, if I`m not mistaken, he met her on Match.com, but I`m not 100 percent sure.
GRACE: And how long had they been married?
WILLIAMS: They`ve only been married three years. They had the baby a year before they got married.
GRACE: So he comes into a ready-made family. The baby was about 1 year old. And they`ve only been married three years?
WILLIAMS: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: You know, Kathy, they should still be in the honeymoon phase. Take a listen to the 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Where`s your daughter now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s on the couch. She`s asleep.
911 OPERATOR: She`s asleep on the couch? How old is she?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s 4.
911 OPERATOR: You don`t know who it was that hit you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know what they look like, if they were a male or a female?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My husband was just shot! Somebody was in the house!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michele Williams sounded hysterical in her 911 call to report that an intruder shot her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he was shot in the head!
911 OPERATOR: Who did it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers smelled deception.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The night (ph) door is open!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is very suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The door obviously had not been forced.
911 OPERATOR: He did it to himself?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Later, Michele Williams changed her story of suicide
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. At first, she claims an armed intruder dressed in solid black comes into their home, a $4.5 million Tudor-style home, hits her in the head, beats her with a wrench, then opens fire on her husband, killing him in his bed as their 4-year-old little girl lies nearby on the family sofa asleep. But then the story changed, and she reveals it was a suicide.
We are taking your calls. Out to Jason. Hi, Jason. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve just got one thing to tell you. God bless you.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re very welcome. I have one quick question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she staged the murder, was she staging the murder for life insurance?
GRACE: Good question. And we have spoken with Kathy Williams about that. This is Gregory`s ex-wife. Kathy, you believe there is an insurance policy being correct? How much?
WILLIAMS: Well, from what I was told, it was $650,000. But being the ex-wife, I`m not getting a whole lot of information from the attorney or anyone else.
GRACE: What about the funeral, Kathy? How did that go?
WILLIAMS: There was not a funeral, so to speak. We were allowed to have his ashes for about six hours one day so we could hold our family memorial service, and we had nothing but our family there.
GRACE: Why?
WILLIAMS: We do not want to see her. We don`t want to be around her. It would just cause problems.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait. Wa-wait. Hold on. Hold on. So there was no regular funeral? He was cremated?
WILLIAMS: Yes, ma`am. He was cremated. Through a mutual friend, we were allowed to have his ashes for about six hours so we could (INAUDIBLE) our own memorial. And it was his mother, brother, sister, and all of the family and friends that loved him dearly.
GRACE: Well, who made that decision that you only have six hours with the ashes?
WILLIAMS: She did. Texas law, she has every right to the body, estate, everything.
GRACE: Does that include your daughter that he raised since infancy? She got six hours with the ashes?
WILLIAMS: No. No. She had promised to give my daughter an urn with some ashes in it so she could have something from her father, but that has yet to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Pat, why do they always dress in black? Why do they always have ninja style assailants dress in black?
BROWN: Because he was so creepy and scary. But you know --
GRACE: It might have been watching too much TV.
BROWN: He hits her over the head with a wrench, instead of shooting her with the gun. He`s going to leave a live witness. It`s ridiculous and doesn`t even hurt her very hard. That`s the first clue that something is fishy.
And the second one is, on that 911 call, usually the first thing you say is the most important. The first thing she said was, there is a stranger in the house. She didn`t say, send an ambulance, my husband has been shot. She was more concerned that the police knew that somebody had been in the house. To say -- you know that`s --
GRACE: You know, you just drove home a point. I recall a wealthy businessman that whacked his wife in the head, set the house on fire. He lounged around in the neighbor`s front yard Romanesque, and spoke to the EMTs for over a minute before he said, yes, my wife is in there. The house was burning down. Oh, yes, my wife`s in there.
That`s a -- that`s a hint and not so subtle.
To Dr. Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist, author of "Why Does He Do That, Why Does She Do That?"
Paula, weigh in on what the ex-wife is telling you about the ashes? That alone waves a red flag in front of my face. Because, you know, I can understand one wife not liking the ex-wife. I get it. But when it comes to the daughter, the 14-year-old daughter, that`s a whole other can of worms right there.
PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, BLOGGER, PAULABLOOM.COM: Yes. I mean she`s completely into taking care of herself, protecting herself. What was really striking to me is how respectful the ex-wife is talking. That shows a lot about the kind of relationship they had.
GRACE: And the cops aren`t that stupid, Ellie Jostad. Where does the case stand right now?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, right now, Nancy, she has been charged with murder, she has been charged with tampering with or fabricating evidence and she`s been charged with making a false report to a police officer.
GRACE: To Michael Board, WOAI, joining us from Texas.
Michael, even though cops have charged her, she`s been charged, cops didn`t buy this Academy Award-winning performance, she`s out walking free. Explain.
MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: Can you believe this?
GRACE: No.
BOARD: Someone -- got so dead to right she is out on bond right now. Her initial bond is -- just over half a million dollars. Her lawyers -- she got a lawyer, she lawyered up, they went before a judge, they got that half a million dollars down to about $85,000. She is now out on bond. She is wearing one of those GPS devices around her leg, though, so the -- they can track her movements.
GRACE: Wait a minute. She`s got on an ankle bracelet like Paris Hilton got for a DUI?
BOARD: Yes.
GRACE: This woman, according to police, gunned down her husband, point-blank range with his 4-year-old daughter in the sofa, you know, like 30-feet away and she has an ankle bracelet on? Boo-hoo.
Domingo Ramirez, Jr., with the "Ft. Worth Star-Telegram," who is this Judge Scott Wisch? Is he the one that let her out on bond?
DOMINGO RAMIREZ, JR., SR. REPORTER, FT. WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM": Well, I mean that`s the judge, once he listened to everything, reduced the bail but there are restrictions other than the tracker. The passports have been taken away from her and she has to meet with authorities twice a month. So there are some strict conditions in regards to her release.
GRACE: Domingo Ramirez, you must have the courthouse beat, and you`re worried about what this judge might think, because a restriction, a restriction? She`s out walking free. Do you think if this was a man that committed the crime or a minority that they would have to bond like this or a point blank range shooting?
Unleash the lawyers. Holly Hughes, John Manuelian.
Come on, Holly. I know you`re a defense lawyer but remember those days as a prosecutor and you would argue against bonds on the bond calendar? Remember those days, Holly? I do. Why is this woman walking free with nothing more than an ankle bracelet?
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Well, it tells me that the judge, number one, doesn`t think she`s a threat to anybody else out there in the community and like it or not, Nance, you and I know it comes down to what the judge says. And what the judge orders. He doesn`t think she`s a threat to anybody and he thinks she`s going to show up for her trial because those are the things they consider when setting a bond.
GRACE: Those are some of the things they consider, John Manuelian. Those are some of the things. Why is she out on bond? Both of you know that if this were a man or a minority, specifically a minority, not a rich white educated female from a $4.5 million Tudor-style home they`d be in jail. Why is she waling free? Manuelian?
JOHN MANUELIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Apparently the judge didn`t -- apparently the judge didn`t think that she was a flight risk and I`m assuming that`s why she got the electronic monitor. And you`re absolutely right, Nancy.
GRACE: Is there an echo in here? Am I crazy but isn`t that just what Hughes has said?
MANUELIAN: No. She was talking about a threat to society. I`m talking about a flight risk. That`s another factor for bail and apparently this judge didn`t feel that she was in fact a flight risk. That`s what --
GRACE: Holly Hughes said she thinks that Michelle Williams is going to go -- show up at trial. That means no flight risk. Translation, no, this is wrong. This is a trouble standard of justice. It`s wrong.
We are taking your calls. This woman, Michelle Williams, now charged with shooting her husband point-blank range as he lies asleep, possibly sedated in bed with their 4-year-old little girl in the room next door, is walking free. Now is that justice? No. It`s not.