Lauren Sarene Key, 4, died November 8, 2000.
Copyright Sarah Key-Marer, all rights reserved.
UPDATE 12:45 PM edited some of Lynn Brown's testimony for spelling, readability, accuracy.
Tuesday May 5, 2015
Schedule
After several stops, I finally get a seat on the train so I can type.
Today will be a short by at least an hour. The Superior Court has requested that the building be completely empty by 3:00 PM because of the street closures celebrations that are scheduled in downtown for Cinco de Mayo.
Trial Notes
I do not have yesterday’s entry fully edited. I will try to work on this entry during lunch.
Today, we will finish with Jan Mueller. I do not know the rest of the defense witnesses, However, I believe we will have the prior testimony of Brown’s mother read into the record. I will do my best but this type of testimony is difficult to keep up with, since there are no pauses or hesitations in questions and answers, like what you get in a live witness.
9:22 AM
When I get inside the courtroom, DDA Hum and Mr. Laub and the court are arguing about what parts of Lynn Brown's prior testimony can be admitted into this trial. The court is deciding on the objections.
9:24 AM
Sarah and her friend arrive.
DDA Hum also states there is proposed testimony of the defense investigator. Mr. Laub states that he is going to rest today. The court asks if his investigator is going to testify on the entirety of his report. Mr. Laub states that he is.
9:29 AM
Judge Lomeli leaves the bench.
9:36 AM
The witness Jan Mueller takes the stand but we are waiting for one juror. Judge Lomeli comments that they've never been late before.
While they are waiting, DDA Hum suggests that he and Mr. Laub go over the defense investigator's testimony. This is not the current investigator, but one that was on the case in 2009-2010.
Mr. Laub is to call Mr. Royce to testify when he interviewed Mr. Poingsett he never reported what Brown said to his superiors and he wasn't contacted by police. DDA Hum gives the explanations that Poingsett gave to police why he didn't initially come forward. He heard Brown was arrested and that he wasn't getting out. When investigators came to speak to him, he also feared for his life. [I'm not sure I have that correct.] DDA Hum states that he did testify under cross that he never used the words murder, kill [etc., there's more]. The court reporter will verify that. If that's the case, then I believe Mr. Laub agrees he does not need to call this witness.
9:47 AM
Jury files in.
Judge asks the jurors who it was that was late. There is a pleasant conversation as to who it was.
JAN MUELLER
One page letter failure to appear to be marked People's 143. Defendant did not show up for scheduled mediation on September 14, 1999.
Question about her question from yesterday.
Cross ends and redirect examination.
When you were testify yesterday, you had concerns about Mr. Brown's emotional stability, was that something that came from your observations in the meetinss? Yes, it was.
Was that based on Mr. Brown's allegations of child abuse of the mother that you didn't believe? No, I had concerns before that.
Did it have to do with frustration? Frustration and anger.
And you felt his frustrant and anger.... It's not unsual for parties to be ery emotional, but I would say that he was more distrustful and angry than usual. It seemed like he was mistrustful of the process. ... But I still had some concerns about those issues. [was better in the second session]
There were some issues that had come up about wanting to take Lauren on his boat, and why that wasn't a good idea for a 3 year old and not having a life jacket, and some issues like that.
Since, I've sent you your testimony from 2006 and a report with Detective Leslie. Did you review? Yes I did.
Whether you had felt mr. Brown from your observations from him, where he had actally loved lauren. Yes. Reading the prior testimony, ... Laub asks the question again and obj sustained.
Laub now asks a more detailed question. Objection. Sustained.
Is it part of your job to determine that [there is love between a parent and child?] I don't beleive so.
Did Mr. Brown expressed himself passionately about spending time with Lauren. I know that word has been used before, but not how I would [identify].
Did he express that he wanted to spend more time with Lauren? Yes.
Did he, in his face and demeanor, when he said he wanted to spend more time with Lauren, how would you characterize it? That he wanted to spend more time with Lauren.
Another question about how Brown . He seemed engaged. He seemed excited.
Another question about the finances. We don't discuss finances in mediation.
No redirect but Mr. Laub has another question.
Laub corrects that she isn't a psychologist.
The witness is excused.
Dr. Booker is the next defense witness.
KEVIN BOOKER
Tall black man, a trauma specialist. Gives his training as a trauma specialist in brain behavior.
Currently own a practice in the South Bay area. Worked for the past ten years in evaluation PTSD in veterans. Psyactriac conditions a person experiencing a life threatening event. Also assesses malingering. Malingering is, a phenomenon when individuals intentionally seek feign or misrepresent themselves in relation to clinical data. Expert on the court's panel.
At the VA medical center. Member of the medical staff in psychiatary. I amd part of the professional standards board, reveiwing members of the clinical staff, more CV.
Doctorate in applied adults clinical psychology in brain behavior relationships. Has post doctorate training, in adult trauma related behavior. Construct of brain behavior relationships on how the brain functions.
More of his CV, he teaches at Irvine. Has several peer review publications. Mulitple conference presentations.
In this case, I contacted you and asked you to review materials. Yes that is correct.
i reviewed a 911 audio recording, a written transcript for Nov 8, 2000. Reviewed a LA Count yincident report dated 11 8 2000 also reviewed two LA county sheriff's suppliemtal reports dated 11/8/2000.
In sending you these materials, I posed to you, if you saw anything in Mr. Brown that is consistent with trauma or shock. did you come to an opinion. Yes. My opinion is, after having reviewed those mateias. the behaivor exhibited by Bronw is consistent with behaivor we recognize as shock, secondary to trauma.
What did you see in mr Browns actions that was consistent with shock related to trauma? There is not traumatic one on one relation. With respect to what I reveiwed, specifcially, the behavior htat Mr. Brown exhibited, with example asking about the results of the election, would be comprabable to post traumata shock.
Mr. Brown's affect, and lack of apparent emotions, whould that be considet. Yes. the absence of any overt emotion or behaivor, that would be consisten with psychological shock. Without any obvert emotion.
Miss niext question.
Those two poles, overt hysteria, and or they may exhibit no emotion. They may have a complete flat affect. Appear emotionless. Seem as if they were in a daze, so yes. Would the reporting of what happened in the trauma, would the reporting of what happened in the trauma, what happened to Lauren, variations woould that be consistent with shock?
I mean the details of content. yes. We recognize that one of the key componets of shock is that they have a very difficult time remembering details. Amnesia. W
When you say amensia, it sounds as if someone has a total blank. How about aperson who is given the report, is given again, the details vary. Is that consistent or inconsisten. That is consistent with shock following trauma.
What can happen is that details of the traumatic even in how they areencoded in the brain, they are in bits and pieces, so they don't have a full picture, immediately, those memories become more integrated erse disintegrated.
So what mya appear to be bizzare behavior. Mr. Brown took off some of his clothese when he dived in to remove Lauren from the water, ...the baywatch explanation, is the expression of strange thoughts and thinking along these lines, .... consist I would characterize it as uncharacteristic behavior is consistent with someone who is experiencing psychological shock. some people are detached between what's happening and reality. They may behavie in unconventional ways so to say.
Did listen to the 911. That's correct.
And listen to the tone and ways that Mr. Brown expressed himselves. yes.
And he was telling people at the nude beach to put their clothese on and manner of speaking, ... It would be consistent with a person in shock. There's something that we call an inapprpriate affect. It's how someone appears emothonally or physically. There's no one to one correlation, but it is consisstent with someone that has experienced psychological shock.
And read statements of officers at the scene had been wit hMr. Brow and spoke with mr Brown That is correct.
aFter looking through everything, is there anything that stood out for you, as being inconsistent with a person who is in shock. No there is nothing, that reflect malingering.
Am I correct in understanding that flagged for you the concern that Mr. Brown ay have bene facing shock? Yes. That is correct.
Cross.
Ddr. Booker, malingering, you actuall test for malingering Yes I do.
There are tests that are set up, you can test for it. Taht's correst yes.
So it,s not reading a couple police preots, you actually test. That's correct.
In this case, you read reports? thats correct.
On Nov 8, 2000, you were no where near IP That's correct.
And you were not present during the itnerview of nov 9 I was not.
What your basing your testimony on, are a few written reports of reported observations of officers as well as the 911 call? thats correct.
You didn't read any of the transcirpts of the testinon in this case, No I did not.
When were you first contacted? Oh maybe a moth ago?
And when di dyo receive the material that you reviewed? Shortly there after.
You read some supplemental reports dated 11/8/2000, or they related to events that occured on 2000? They related to events.
You mentioned, something called, derealization? thats correct.
Obviously as a phycologist. yes.
Psychologist whos traned at doctoral level in aprazing human behavior without prescription priv and not in a school of medicine.
Psychiatris is a medical doctors .that is correc.t
He is famliiar with the DSM.
There was revision called the DSM Five. yes.
In the DSM five, there actually a mental disorder called, depersonalization derealizations. yes. that's one of the new classifications. They extracted them from acute stress.
They made them one because it was two before? We could go with that. They were a larger construct of acute stress. Now they can be stand alone condidtions.
And there is critera for diagnozing depersonalizion derealization disorder? Yes.
Were the Was the behavior reported int hepolice reort, enough to diagnoze deperson derealiziton diagons. I would say no.
You were on the sup ct board? yes on the panel.
How many times have you testified for traumatic shock? Five times.
Testified in court five times, Traumatic stress disorder.
That's differen from traumatic shock. yes.
First time testifying on traumatic shock? thats not correct.
Thedisorder of taurmatics is a disorder.
Traumatic
PTS is a disroder.
Shock really is, a syndrome that is in reference.
You're not testify that these symptos in this police reports, is signifcat to diagnose someone with PTSD? Im not making that diagnosis, correc.t
And the five times that you testified in supriro court, how many times has that been for the defense? every time it's been for thedefense.
There are a number of, behaviors that could be consistent with someone who is suffering from derealiz depersonalization, in additon to the ones reported in the pol reporit? Yes.
dizzy, light headed, being an observer, feeling that head is wrapped in cotton, or that legs and arms are longer or shorter, feeling like living in a movie? Feeling ... miss reading. That's correct.
That there is distortion of perception of time distortion of distance and size and shape of objects? Correct.
Isn't it also true that according to the DSM V creteriam deperson derealization onalzation is very rare in someone older? yes. That's part of the new definition.
You would agree, that not everyone who experiences a traumatic event is in shock, That is correct.
You did however, state that, certainly someone who is acting hysterically, someone is someone who is experiencing shock. That's correct.
Essentially, it would appear, anyone no matter how they appear, could be experiencing shock. That's correct.
I would say that its specific and predicated on the behavior they are experiencing.
Specifiying. High emotion or no emotion.
Now, it would seem obvious, is behavior of tramatic shock or depersonalization does not cause someone to commit a crime? I would say yes, that is correct.
And, someone who exhibits, symptoms of depersonalization or derealization or ptsd, that is not evidence of any emotional attachment to a victim of a traumatic shock, Ask question again.
That would not be necessarily evidence of attachment, to the victim of an event? That is correct.
Example of a bomb going off.
Behavior of someone who exhibits behavior or little emotion, is not necessarily experiencing dep dereali, they could just not care. Taht's correct.
Someone exper a traumatice event, ould exper the same thing yes. that's true.
And someone who causes a traumatic event could also be the cause of that event? That is correct.
Redirect.
Dr. Booker. Why don't we talk about the DSM V.
That edition replaced the DSM 4? It replaced the DSM4TR.
And one of the things that came out on cross examination, that what had been a lalrger diagnoisis for acute stress , has now been broken down into independed depersonalization, derealization order, is that correct? With this caveat. It's not been the exclusion of PTSD. Waht's happened is, deperson and derealizat according to some research groups, deserved greater attention as stand alone disroders.
Within the psychat communit theres be criticism for creating what is now a greater multitude of greater disorders, because it plays into the pharmecutical and medical industires, that now address these [scandalus? issues?]. In some respects I would say that's true.
He did no see or diagnose to Mr. Brown? No.
Would it make any sense to diagnose the person he was 15 years ago? No that wouldn't make any sense.
Not making a diagnosis 15 years ago? No I am not.
Now when asked about the prosecution about disorders,
It would be an impossiblity at this time to diagnose Brown. I agree.
DDA Hum asks that questions not be leading. Laub agrees.
Because coming in at this time, does that limit your professional opionon. Yes it does. And listening to audio tapes, ti doesn't make it able to make a diagnosis.
I'm rederning a clinical opinion, that behavior at one point in time is consistent with construct of traumatic stress.
The things you observed by others and the things you heard on the tape, exhibit symptoms of a way person could react in a state of shock. The things I heard and reviewed in this case, suggest to me, those things are consistent with the people that we experince post traumatic shock.
Prosecutiors have contacted him but he has not been asked to testify. If asked, would you have? Yes.
The witness is excused.
DONALD DeARMAN
The bailiff give jurors new notebooks. (20.
Do you know Mr. Brown? Yes.
When did you meet him? Aprox? Been about 10 12 years ago at the farmer's market in redondo beach?
We do a farm up in Fresno. Still do that.
Met him at the farmer's market? Yes.
Tell us a bit about your interacitons with Mr. Brown at the fm/ I ws wearing a motorcycl tshirt. he's assk if I rode dirt bikes. we would talk about riding and things like that?
Had you ever ridden professionall? yes. won awards.
They became freinds. and rode 2 times together. Went to gorman and trail riding. Took him to the motorcross park and we went riding together.
He memtioned to me that he was oging to get custody of his daughter from a previosu relationship? When e talke to you about it. he seemed fin he seemed like a prett appy go lucky guy.
Do you remember a phone call from Mr. Brown around halloween 200)? ican't say that I do.
Did you in halloween of 2000, he asked if he could bring his daughter to halloween. I think my sone was 3 at the time almost 4.
Before heasked you, did you talkd t him about ?? I think so, yeah.
Did he acutall ome over and jin you? he did.
Did ihe ring his daugher lauren? he did
was anyone else with him? No I don't think so.
Met up at his brother Randy's house. Was a big group of kids.
How was Lauren? She was a cute little girl dressed up as a pricness. She seemed like she was having fun.
How long were they out trick or treating? They were all pretty young, I don't thing it was more than an hour.
we all waedd together.
I saw him about a week after that. at the farmers market at the pier.
He looked, he didn't look happy. His eyes were kind or red, his eyes were kind of shaken up?
Did he ask you if he'd seed the story about a child falling off the clif/ I dind't He si that his daughter lauren had fallen off a cliff. he took her up there and he was broken up.
Did he have tears in his eyes? yes/
Did he appear to be in shock? yes obj stricken
CROSS.
You said that Laurne apepared to be having fun? Yeah.
Waling aroudn with a bunc of kids and getting free candy. Yes, Cam had her one his shoulders for a time?
Did it seem unusal to you that a little four year old girl would enjoy that, going around and getting candy?
So a bunch of kids, about 2o or so on halloween of 2000? Yes.
Did you and thedefendt socalize other than that? he came over to my house once beoer and Iheldped him move into a new place, he was getting a new apartment at the time.
Testified in 2009, under oath? Yes.
Reading prior testimony./ questions.
Now would you sai that you were friend with thedefendat We were acqaintest.
You spent time on halloween Yes.
And you went dirt bike ridign? yes.
And did you socialize with thedefendant beyond meeting at the farmers market, going dirt bike riding a few times ,talked on the phone but that's about it? Yes.
First time contacted about this case was also back in 2009/ correct.
So about 9 years after your encounter with the defendant at the farmer's market. first time contated about this case. Corret.
And would it be acurate to say, when you spoike th the defense investgator, you stated that the defenant was crying and physically upset. Yes. So he was displaying emotion in public/ Yes.
He didn't tell you that it was just his daughter just died? It was lauren and they think I did it? Isn't that what he said/ i believe so, yes.
Do you remember, what day of the weke this was? It had to be Thuraday, because it was Redondo.
So you take produce fro the farm ans sell it correct. Brother in law owns thr farm in Fresno.
When you first met thedefendat, you thought it was 10 12 years ago? It had to have been about a year or two before this incident occurred? yes.
So went dirt bik riding twie and met Lauren once? Yes.
No further questions.
Mr. Laub needs. to coordinate the transcript corrections for his witness.
Will need the to take a break.
10:48 AM
The court calls for the morning break, and they will be back at 11 AM. It's
Mrs. Laub who will be reading testimony into the record again.
The power/energy bars come out again for DDA Hum and Detective Leslie.
11:09 AM
Back on the record.
Person on the stand who read testimony to you previously. The testimony Ms. Garrett will read the testimony of
LYNN BROWN
What is your relationship with Cameorn Brown? Cameron is my son.
You have 4 boys? yes. Cameorn was second in line? Yes.
The witness is asked if her mother and father are still alive. Mother and father not alive.
Your mother owned a house on The Strand in Redondo Beach? Yes.
The witness is asked when her mother died. She died in 2004 or 2003; I can't remember. She lived there for seven years [On The Strand.]
The witness and her husband were living in Idaho. She got a call from her sister that her mother had Alzheimer's. She came to live with her mother and take care of her. [I believe her husband followed a year later.]
Mother lived on The Strand? Yes. It's a wide strip of cement that goes along the beach. ... It was beachfront property.
Were there times when Cameron Brown would come and stay with you? He lived there [with her mother, Brown's grandmother.] He would help her, [the grandmother].
What would he do? Everything. [Mentions many home improvement tasks like putting on new shingles, etc.] She wore diapers. He would hold her up while I would change her. He would do the grocery shopping. ... He lived with her on and off, helped her after her husband died. ...[He would] Protect her.... Driver her places in that big truck.
Now questions about the family growing up and the activities they participated in.
Family participated in a lot of outdoor activities when they [the four boys] were growing up. They all continued and still do it [outdoors activities] to this day.
Did you meet a young girl named Lauren Key? I did.
[How did that come about?] Her mother called me and asked me if I knew she had a granddaughter. I didn't. I was thrilled and we set up a time to meet.
[Question about meeting Lauren and Sarah.] Yes we met her. My sister lived in Huntington Beach, and she put on a big [Christmas?] event. [I got ] to meet [Sarah, Greg,] Lauren and Josh. Cameron was asked to stay away by Sarah.
Met Lauren for about a year. Lauren came down, sometimes every weekend. Sometimes every other weekend. Sometimes the witness drove down to Lauren's house.
When we first met, Sarah and I spent time together. Sometimes Sarah would leave and go visit a friend in the Valley. And I got to visit with Lauren by myself. [The witness enjoyed that.]
So sometimes she would leave Lauren and you would have Lauren to yourself? Yes.
Was Cameroon living there at some of the times during these visits? Yes.
He was told he had to leave the house when Lauren came? Yes.
Would you describe her as a docile sit on the floor type of girl? Just the opposite. ... She was very active. She would run down to the beach to the water. She would climb up on the table and go aorund the pole like a may pole. [I was scared.] I would have to catch her. She would jump [off the table?]. She was a busy girl. And she also had quiet times where I would read to her.
Witness is s asked about one time where Lauren wasn't careful. She had come running up from the beach. because she had seen her friend Shannon. And I was [shouting? yelling?] at her not to cross the bike path. [Lauren kept running toward her friend, crossing the bike path.] And she barely missed getting run over by a bike.
The witness is asked about what type of activities she would do with Lauren.
We would walk on the beach. on The Strand.
Did she like the beach? She did. We spent a lot of time on the beach when the weather was nice. She had toys things [the witness bought for her] that you fill with wet sand and make imprints in the sand. She would dig. We would walk and search for seashells. [There's more.]
Would you also go down by the piers? I wouldn't take it to the Manhattan beach pier, it was too far for me. But I would take her to an old pier. Would she walk long distances with you? Yes. [I believe the witness is asked if Lauren would walk a mile, mile and a half distances with her, and the witness said yes, and that Lauren didn't have a problem with that.]
I believe the witness is asked if Lauren needed to be carried.
The only time she would want to be carried is if she didn't have her shoes and the sand was too hot.
There were times that your son would pick her up in Orange County? Yes.
Now questions about where people lived at the time, and who lived where. Where Sarah lived, where her sister lived, where Brown lived.
He [Brown] lived in your house? That's right.
You knew Sarah lived in Huntington Beach? Yes.
And you knew he was going down to pick up Lauren? That's right.
He would bring Lauren there? Yes.
Did you ever get a phone call from Sarah, saying that Cam did not bring Lauren back? No.
So questions about the travel and where cam stayed and if Sarah ever stayed with her.
So when he would bring Lauren to the house, she would observe Cam with Lauren.
They were very affectionate. He was shy at first.
Did he seem to take pride in being a father? Yes. Did he seem to be enjoying it? Yes.
Would he talk to you about Lauren? He was very proud of her.
Did something happen before her death? He was concerned that she was being abused. He would bring me photos of bruises.
There were no [other] children, nephews or nieces in their family? Brown seemed to be trying to learn to be a father.
I remember one time , walking on a boat dock to see an old boat [that a friend of Brown's had]. And Lauren was running and Cam told her to stop but she wouldn't.
Did it appear to you that Cam was making efforts to see Lauren? Yes.
Did a rift occur between you and your son Cameron? A small one. Not a big one.
Did you argue with Cam during this time period? Yes.
When you would argue would he be visibly upset? Yes.
In this time period, were you getting to see Lauren on a frequent basis, and Cam only saw her on his court ordered visits? Yes.
And when you saw her Cam couldn't be there ? Yes.
Did you in actuality, make an effort to see Lauren because she was her granddaugher because Cam couldn't see her because of the court order? Yes.
Was this the basis of the argument that you and Cam got into? Yes.
Questions about Cam growing up.
He was the most sensitive of the children I think. He would bring me rocks and stones and sending birthday cards when he got older. He always remembered birthdays and Christmas.
After he became a man and moved away, did you maintain a strong bond with Cameron? Yes.
Brothers and other sons, [she] had strong bonds with them. And Brown had strong bonds with his father and brothers.
More questions about the rift they had.
Did you ever tell Sarah, during that time that she couldn't speak ill of Cam, in front of Lauren? Yes. Did you tell her to stop it? Yes. Did she? She did.
She went through the same thing with Cam.
[The witness was asked if she spoke to them both together about this.] They weren't together, but I spoke to them separately and they stopped it.
Did Detective Leslie come to your home at some point? He did.
What did he ask you he could do? He said that he thought that Cam was not guilty, and I think he said that he could help him. I don't remember much. I ended up crying. I remember Ian coming to my rescue.
Another question about what Detective Leslie said.
Now a question about whether Sarah came to her home after Lauren died.
Sarah came to her house. She had been away and when she arrived, Sarah was waiting at her house. She asked me if Cam had done it. I said no, He's devastated. I gave her a hug and walked in the house.
Now there are occasions, that Lauren was picked up by Brown at Lauren's home and at her school, where Lauren would throw a fit and not want to go [with him].
Was there the same thing that happened with Lauren when Sarah came to pick up Lauren? Yes, I remember one time where we were trying to get Lauren in the car and she was arching her back and didn't want to go.
Now there are many questions about Brown and money.
Cam was the least of her sons, to ask for money.
The doll collection. Her mother had collected these dolls, and they were part of the family. Did Cam at some point and ask you for something. He asked if he could give one of the dolls to Lauren. It took him a week to decide, becaues he wanted to pick out thebest. Did those dolls have great sentimental value for your family? They did.
Mr. Laub and DDA Hum whisper off the record.
Mr. Laub tells the court: We need a moment to set up and exhibit that's already been seen before.
It's very difficult to get all the testimony.
A video of Lauren, walking around on roller skates in a garage is shown.
I'll ask you to identify pieces of video. does that appear to be Lauren to you. It's the video of Lauren that was played during Sarah's testimony.
Is that Lauren on inline skates? On inline skates.
Does that appear to be Lauren playing in the sand and the dirt? That's Lauren.
Is that Lauren playing on Monkey bars at the park? Yes.
Does that appear to be lauren attempting to skateboard? Yes.
Brown looks up at the video as Luaren skoots along the sidewalk, sitting ont the skateboard.
Does tha again appear to be lauren playing at the park? Does that appar to be Lauren with the tire? Yes.
Brown still wathes the video.
Does that appaear to be lauren playing in the water? Yes.
That is larun walking throug htemud and water near the park? Yes, it looked like her.
Is that Laurne playing atop those largepipes? Yes.
does that appear to be lauren at the beach? yes.
Does that appear to be alure walkin in the ocaean/ yes.
[Something about the skateboard. But I'm not sure]
Direct is finished cross begins.
The video continues to play to the end.
Cross examination.
Those video clips that we saw of Lauren did you take those No.
Did your son take those? No.
IS this the first time you've seen them? Yes.
In any of those videos, did you see Lauren hiking? No.
She was present in the courtroom during the first proceeding and at the second proceedin?
Actually shortly after Detective, Leslie came into your house, you asked him to leave. because you wanted him to speak to your son's lawyer.
Ian asked him to leave, becaue I was getting upset.
Do you remember your son Ian, asking Det. Leslie to go through your son's lawyer? yes.
Do you rmember me asking oyou at hte prior proceeding,
At the prior proceeding you said why would I need a laywer. I never did.
I think it was Ian who said, that we wanted our lawyer there, to get theim out of the house?
So just toget det leslie to get out of the house? That is the way I feel?
Are there other instances where you had to help your son out? No.
Testifies, that if Ms. Allen testified about you paying her $600.00 that would be a lie? Yes.
Have you been talking to your son's wife about the testimony in these proceedings? Only about that.
More questions about her conversations with Patty about the trial.
Cannot remember him ever asking to borrow money. He always worked and made his own money and bought his own toys and bought the clunky cars.
So are you telling us now, that your son never asked to borrow money. I don't remember. Maybe for a senior rink in high school.
More questions about Cameron and if he ever asked if he borrow money. She can't remember if Cameron ever did.
Now questions about buying cars for the other sons. You said that you ahd bought cars for your other sons. Yes. And def. atty asking if Cameron ever asked you to buy a car. And if he did, you certainly would have bought him a car. We had an extra car that we gave to him. He didn't ask for it and we didn't buy it for him.
We didn't buy it for him, and he never ask him for it.
Brown watches the witness.
Questions about if her other son Ian, testified at a prior proceeding about Cameron being given a car.
Have you ben to visit your son in jail? yes. When we lived here, we went on a regular basis. Now that we live in Missouri, it was hard to get there.
About 10 times because I was taking care of my mother. My husband went more than I did.
Do you remember when you son married patty? Yes. They were married in Hawaii, so we couldn't go there. Doesn't reember when Brown and Patty got married.
Next day.
Doesn't remember if it was her son or her DIL who called you and told her about Frannie.
It might have been Cameron telling me about the Frannie testimony.
In any way over the phone or by letter, how many times does she talks to Patty. She doesn't remember, maybe 10 times, and by email much more. And significantly more than 10 emalis back and forth?
In the past two months? We've had 10 phone calls.
You've been in Missouri yes.
And you know the trials been going on, correct?
yes.
And youve been interested int he proceeding, and this numerous emails, the defendants wife hasn't told you what's beeng going on in court? No. We ususally talk about cam and how badly hes' doing.
We just don't talk about the trail. Patty and I, talke about cam. So it's your testimony today, that it was your son who told you about Frannie? yes.
But you told us yesterday that it was your daughter in law? I thought it might have been [but it was Cam.]
Is it your testimony that your son called you up and told you things that he had done? Things that he's done in the past.
Questions, about Fran, and the witness states she never knew her.
Questions about when she lived in Colorado, and when her son lived with her there, when he moved out, etc. Cameron went away to college for a couple of years.
At that point in time, it is your testimony that you ahd a good realtionship with your son? yes.
And you would discuss what was going on in his ilfe? No.so it's your testimony, he never told you about a girlfriend that he had at the time?
Insists that she didn't know "Frannie" and explains that her son Ian had known a frannie who had a crush on him.
Questions about the photos of Lauren that her son showed her. Didn't you tell your son that bruises on children is common? [miss answer]
Questions about if she knew that her son told her about what he said to a court mandated reporter.
Now more questions about the bruises, and if she had spoken to her son's lawyer previously about the bruises and who brought up the issue.
At this proceeding you volunteered information that you weren't asked about? Yes.
11:59 AM
The court orders the noon break. After the jury leaves, the court asks Mr. Laub if he has any more witnesses. He does not. The defense will rest.
After the defense rests, the prosecution will call Detective Leslie as a rebuttal witness.