Our experts line up again this week to tell us what they think will happen to property in 2016. I am keen to know where they got it right last year, where they will focus on investing this year, the signs they will be look for and any advice they can give us to ensure we don’t put a foot wrong this year.
You will hear from renovation queen Cherie Barber, John Lindeman, Josh Masters, Pete Wargent and Jan Somers.
And as we try to make sense of the mixed messages about the property market, Michael Yardney gives us details of his formulae to work out where to invest and which properties are the best. This week he details his top down approach to select the best market.
Transcripts:
Jan Somers
Kevin: Welcome into the show. Once again this week, we’re going to be looking at a cross range of our experts as we enter into 2016, and we’ll be looking at what their views are of the market post-2015 as we go into a brand new year.
My guest to start the show off this week is Jan Somers, and Jan, of course, is from a great website, Somersoft.com.au.
You get a lot of feedback from people around Australia, Jan. What were they saying about 2015?
Jan: A lot of feedback. “Up and down” would be the key word, and depending on what city you’re in. Sydney and Melbourne were just unbelievable and I think beyond anyone’s expectations.
Kevin: Was that the big surprise for you, the Sydney market in particular?
Jan: It was a big surprise, just the amount of surge that continued for such a long time in Sydney. I don’t usually watch a market that closely except my son had a property in Sydney that he was selling because he’d been there six years and he’d moved on and was going to buy somewhere else. If ever there was a property sold when the bell rings at the top of the market, he sold it on that very night.
Kevin: Oh, wow. Is that right?
Jan: I was very astutely aware that the weekend before, there was a 70% or 80% clearance rate, as they say in Sydney, and the weekend after, it had dropped to 40%. He hit the nail on the head, and that was just amazing to watch.
Kevin: Yes. Incredible stuff. Let’s have a look at 2015. Were there any areas or property that you became disappointed in – in other words, you thought that they would perform better?
Jan: Yes. Because I was involved in a small development, I would have to say that building new properties, one, the construction costs were exorbitantly high, and secondly, dealing with councils was just… I would have to say it’s not my cup of tea.
That was very disappointing because if they do want to expand the property industry in Australia, they need to overcome those two aspects of councils dealing with developers, even small developers like myself, and just the price of construction is exorbitantly high compared to the cost of an established property these days.
Kevin: Do you find that some of the regional councils are worse than the cap city councils, or doesn’t it matter?
Jan: Possibly some of the regional ones who are trying to encourage growth might be a little bit easier to deal with than those that don’t really care whether people or developers come and go. It could well be, and from my anecdotal evidence, that dealing in regional Australia where they’re trying to encourage growth is probably better than dealing in the big city.
Kevin: Yes. Looking ahead at 2016, what do you think we’ll be saying this time next year about this year?
Jan: It’s a bit boring, but I think if you take a long-term view, then my view is we should be looking at the same as, same as. We don’t need to be looking at the ups and downs of the cycles, although it’s very interesting to observe. But if you’re in it for a seven- or ten-year period, I think next year should be it should be the same as it has been for the last ten years if we’re looking in decade lots of property investment.
Kevin: What are the markets? Are there that you’ll be keeping your eye on during 2016?
Jan: I will. I’ll be keeping a close eye on the Brisbane market. We have a lot of properties in Brisbane after watching happened in Sydney and in Melbourne where people get given this exorbitant amount of money for their property and then find that they want to spend it somewhere else where it’s cheaper, and Brisbane right now is disproportionately lower than the Sydney/Melbourne market.
Kevin: Always great talking to you, Jan Somers. Thank you so much for your time. Jan, of course, at her website, Somersoft.com.au.
Thanks for your time, Jan.
Jan: You’re welcome, Kevin.
Michael Yardney
Kevin: As you know, last week and for the next couple of weeks, we’re having a look around Australia at what the markets are going to look like in 2016 with a number of our experts. I’m fascinated to hear so many different views about where we’re headed. Obviously, the market, very, very fluid as it was in 2015. Michael Yardney joins me.
Michael, how do we make sense – or how do you make sense – of all of these mixed messages?
Michael: Kevin, the first way is to have a system so that therefore, you’re not getting sidetracked by all the news. But the next thing is to start with a macro approach of how the world’s going, then how Australia’s going, and then dig down to a micro approach of how segments of the markets are going and particular properties. I start with the big picture, Kevin.
Kevin: Walk us through that, Michael, because I think over this week and next week, certainly I want to dig a bit more into this to see how you actually determine that.
Michael: As you say, the market is going to be different and the economic factors affecting the market are different. We start with the big picture of how is the world economy going and how is Australia’s economy going? Because there are some stages of the property cycle and the world economic cycle that you may just sit on your hands. Sometimes the right thing to do is nothing, but I don’t think 2016 will be that year.
We look at how is the economy going? In Australia, we’re not going to do the best, but we’re still going to be the envy of most of the developed nations. Then we look at the states. We dig down to the right state and see one that is in the right state of its own property cycle.
Kevin, as we know, each state has its own property cycle. I don’t try to time the cycle completely, but I don’t want to buy right near the peak where you’re probably going to miss out on capital growth for a couple of years.
Kevin: Let’s look at the current state of the markets or the current state of the states. Are there any states that stand out for you? Obviously, there are the ones where you probably wouldn’t go – and maybe that’s Perth and Darwin.
Michael: Kevin, I think the property cycle is going to be driven by wages growth and economic growth. We know that in Sydney and Melbourne, the markets have been very strong, but over the long term, the way that property values can increase is by people being able to afford to pay more. That’s partly happened by lower interest rates, and it’s also happening in certain segments where jobs are being created and wages are going up.
I’m following those areas where service industries, in particular, are creating jobs in certain segments of our big capital cities. It’s very likely going to be Melbourne and Sydney this year, with Brisbane coming up a little bit, as well.
Then within that state, though, Kevin, I look at the right locations. I’m wanting the suburbs that have not just had long-past history of capital growth; just as important to me are suburbs where the demographics, the people, are able to afford, as I said a moment ago, and are prepared to pay a premium to live. I think that is going to occur more close to the water, close to the CBD, close to where the economic activity is, so we then drill down to suburbs.
You can actually see that Australian Bureau of Statistics provides suburb-by-suburb data from the census on disposable income and areas where disposable income increases more than average.
Then you really need “on the ground” information because in every suburb there are three or four locations, some better than others in the suburbs, some districts better than others. I’m not just talking about on main roads or close to shops, or schools, or commercial areas, but also why some streets slightly have more character, why one side of the street is worth more than others.
Then I dig into the right property. That’s my five-stranded approach that we can discuss at another time. Then, Kevin, it’s the price. I think it’s going to be important to get price right this year. You can’t overpay in a market that’s not growing very much like it did in the previous couple of years. Inflation and high price growth isn’t going to cover up mistakes in 2016.
Kevin: You mentioned there about the property, which brings in your five-stranded approach. I wonder if we could cover off on that next week because that’s an important part or the next building block in helping us understand what 2016 is going to be like. Michael?
Michael: I’d be happy to do that, Kevin.
Cherie Barber
Kevin: This time, Cherie Barber joins us. Cherie Barber, of course, is from Renovating for Profit.
Good day, Cherie.
Cherie: Hi.
Kevin: We’ve got you in one of your breaks, I think, of one of your seminars. Is that right? Your workshops?
Cherie: I am, yes. Day one. Big day.
Kevin: How many days in this workshop?
Cherie: Three days. About 12 hours a day.
Kevin: Oh, goodness. We’re privileged to have you on the show, so thanks for your time. Cherie, I wanted to talk to you about the 2015 market, your views on that, how you saw that. Was it an interesting year?
Cherie: Yes, definitely. 2015, at the beginning of the year, generally, most property markets – I think, Perth being the exception – were still appreciating in value. Definitely, what I’ve witnessed out in the field is the hysteria has gone out of the marketplace. I think that’s good because prices are stabilizing and probably getting back to where they should be.
When the market softens, moving forward, I think, for the next 12 months, property prices are probably going to come back in the order of 5%, particularly in the inner city ring. We just have to mindful that the property market is not one market, Kevin.
Kevin: Yes, that’s right. What about the people you’re working with around Australia? What markets are responding better? Are there any responding better to renovations than others?
Cherie: Definitely. What I’ve seen, particularly in markets like Sydney and Melbourne, there’s been so much hysteria in the property market over the last year and a half to two years where people were just paying ridiculous prices for renovated properties. What’s happened is because of the inflating property prices generally across the country, a lot of people have been pushed into the outer metropolitan ring in most states, and so we’ve seen a big boom in the outer metro ring, particularly from renovated properties. That is where it tends to work quite well.
The problem is people have gone out into those outer metro rings, the prices have been rapidly going up in a lot of those outer metro rings, so what most people are finding out is they’re completely priced out of the Sydney and the Melbourne property markets.
For example, in Sydney, the central coast is now booming and the south coast of Sydney is now booming because everybody’s been pushed out of the outer metro ring western-wise. It’s caused a domino effect.
I think moving forward, I think the outer metro ring, a little bit further – 50 Ks onwards – are going to get really good capital growth opportunities for anybody looking to renovate.
Kevin: Cherie, we’ve heard a lot of talk about how more and more people are moving to units, the unit explosion particularly in developments around Australia. Are units still a good proposition – some of those older style units – for renovation and turning over?
Cherie: Yes and no. I think they’re a good proposition if you’re an owner-occupier and you’re not really trying to build a property portfolio. Historically, apartments do get lower capital growth than a freestanding house, so you will always… Obviously, there’s some exceptions to the rule, but generally, you do get lower capital growth.
I think for people who want a nice apartment to live in as an owner-occupier, not too interested in building a property portfolio, that would be a fine strategy, but for anybody looking to be more aggressive, my advice to them would be not to buy an apartment, but to try to buy a low-budget freestanding house in those outer metro regional areas, not too regional, to get a higher capital growth than what you will on an apartment. That would be my advice to them.
Kevin: Cherie, is it still overcapitalizing – or the potential of overcapitalizing – the biggest mistake that renovators make, even in this market?
Cherie: They do. This is the thing. Generally what happens when the market is going well and property prices are increasing rapidly – like they have over the last year and a half to two years – the “buy, renovate, and sell” strategy becomes less viable, because with rising property prices, if you’re paying a higher price, it gets extremely hard for the numbers to stack up when you’re renovating to sell.
But when the market softens and it comes back to more normal levels, that’s when you’ll find renovating to sell, the numbers will start to stack up. What I’ve seen over the last year and a half to two years is that the “renovating to sell” strategy has become less doable and more people are transitioning into the buy, renovate, and rent strategy because that has a lot lower cost associated versus selling. That’s what I’ve seen.
Literally, you adopt a strategy, renovate to rent or renovate to sell, according to what cycle the property market is in. Either way, the best strategy of all is to buy, renovate, and rent. Even if the market is booming, you always want to try and hold onto a property because it’s compound capital growth that ultimately makes you wealthy, not just the renovation.
Kevin: What are your tips to anyone who wants to do that, Cherie, right now?
Cherie: In terms of renovating?
Kevin: Yes. You mentioned there about the buy, renovate, and rent. What are your tips on making sure that that is a successful venture for you?
Cherie: I think buying in the right suburbs, first of all, and I’ve already given you some clues as to where quick cosmetic renovations tend to work better. They definitely don’t work that well in the inner city rings, regardless of which state you’re in, because of the high property values. I think paying the right price, buying them in the most lucrative price range that you can for cosmetic renos.
Then, I think just knowing how to manage the renovation, I think that’s what most Australians struggle with. They don’t know whether to renovate one room at a time, the whole house at a time. They don’t know how to manage tradespeople. It’s trying to learn the whole process from start to finish, and that is the reason why I am in the middle of a workshop.
Kevin: That’s what it’s all about, of course. It’s learning what those skills are. That obviously varies property to property, or is it more of the investor profile, Cherie?
Cherie: It’s more your strategy. I think once somebody makes the decision to do renovating as their property strategy, generally your strategy remains the same. Typically, you will just focus on a small cluster of suburbs, so instead of being a jack of all trades, you become a master of one. You focus on a small cluster of suburbs, so you’re not spreading your wings too fine.
You’d be looking for the same sort of property deal after deal. In an ideal world, you do renovating that property in same manner, so almost adopting a cookie-cutter approach to how you renovate.
What I teach my students is not to get fancy on any cosmetic renovation, to work with a template that works, and that comes down to color schemes, the type of kitchen cabinet you put in, the type of floorboards, what color you sand them, all that sort of stuff, and all you do is replicate that project after project so that your renovation projects become a production line, a cookie-cutter mentality.
This cookie-cutter mentality, while it may not win you any design awards, what it will do is make you money. People don’t need to reinvent their strategies property after property.
Kevin: My guest has been Cherie Barber.
Cherie, thanks once again for your time.
Cherie: Awesome. Thanks so much, Kevin.
John Lindeman
Kevin: Welcome back to the show. Joining us this time to give us his view on 2016, John Lindeman who is the Director of Property Power Partners. Let’s get all the Ps in line there.
John, how are you?
John: I’m very well. Thanks, Kevin.
Kevin: Good. Happy New Year, too.
John: Thank you very much, and yes, I wish you all the best for the coming year, as well.
Kevin: Well, that’s what we’re going to talk to you about to make sure that we get all of our ducks in a row. What do you think we’re going to be saying about 2016 this time next year, John?
John: I would hope you’d be saying, “Why didn’t we buy in the areas that John Lindeman predicted?”
Kevin: That’s right.
John: Or “Why did we buy?” which would be even better.
Kevin: We’ll get to that in just a moment. John, you’re predicting what? A fairly healthy market for 2016?
John: I think so. I think in some parts of the country, it will be very, very healthy indeed and in others, there will be a time of continuing price correction, so I really see two markets going in the different directions.
Kevin: Is it going to be much different from what we’ve seen in 2015, last year, as to where those markets will emerge – the good ones and the not-so-good ones?
John: I think that the good one will continue to be New South Wales. I think Sydney is pretty much over its high growth, record growth that it’s had over the last few years, but I don’t think it’s going to be a bubble. The growth will probably slow down there.
But I think New South Wales is where the money is. It’s a budget that’s very healthy, a booming economy, and there’s a lot of infrastructure development occurring in Sydney and New South Wales generally, which are some of the biggest infrastructure development projects we have going at the moment, and I think they’ll continue to drive the regional house markets in New South Wales upwards over the next few years.
Kevin: John, what do you think will be the enemies of the market this year? Is it likely to be consumer confidence? Is it interest rates, or is it affordability? What’s going to put a dampener on the market, do you think?
John: I think what’s happened over those two years – and will continue to happen – is that with the ending of the mining boom and a lot of the construction workers returning back to the cities they came from and then moving more into housing construction, what I’m seeing is I’ve just come back from a trip to Perth and massive unit development occurring over there and housing development, as well.
What that’s leading to is a surplus of supply. To a lesser degree, we’re seeing the same thing in Brisbane, but we’re seeing the opposite occurring in Sydney, so there’s just still not enough housing being built.
I think they’re the two main things. The ending of the mining boom is changing the nature of housing markets in terms of these areas that had huge shortages of supply now going to experience surpluses. I did not predict a boom for Brisbane; I said it was one of the areas that would continue to have moderate growth, and I think that’s going to slow down over the next year. Perth is likely to continue going backwards, unfortunately.
Kevin: You said at the opening that hopefully people will be delighted with the fact that they moved into the areas you’ve suggested. Are you going to suggest a couple of areas for us, John, that we might want to focus on in 2016?
John: What I can see happening is that, as I mentioned before, the New South Wales government has a huge cash injection from stamp duty. They’re embarking on huge infrastructure developments around Sydney. I don’t think that’s going to turn the market around there because it’s already booming anyway and these are really catch-up improvements.
But when you look away from the capital city to the massive infrastructure development projects, such as the duplication of the Princes Highway south and the Pacific Highway north all the way to Brisbane, these are massive projects.
We recently drove along both of those highways to have a really good look at what was happening. What you can see is the rent demand is escalating as thousands of workers have to live in towns like Kempsey, Taree, Coffs Harbour, Grafton, and Ballina while they’re working on the highway duplication. The local authorities there are urging investors not to engage in rent gouging, but of course, they are. There’s very, very few rental vacancies, so you can see rents really starting to ramp up in those cities and also price rises will then follow.
The difference I see between this and, say, a mining boom is that the improvement of the highway will actually convert these towns into very desirable holiday and retirement areas. I think that price growth will occur after the highway is completed in the next four years. Those towns that I mentioned, Kempsey, Taree, Coffs Harbour, Grafton, and Ballina, when you go south now at Jervis Bay and Batemans Bay, all have a lot of growth coming their way in the next few years.
Kevin: That’s an area for you to focus on then. John, on that point, we’ll say thank you so much. All the best for 2016. Look forward to working with you through the year, as well.
John Lindeman, thank you so much for your time.
John: It’s been a pleasure, Kevin, and may I wish all of your listeners a very prosperous 2016.
Josh Masters
Kevin: Joining me as we continue to have a look at the market 2015 looking into 2016, Josh Masters from BuySide.com.au joins me.
Hi, Josh.
Josh: Good morning, Kev.
Kevin: Good morning. Just before we start, love your app, the Suburb Investor. I downloaded it and have just been playing with it. It’s a great little comparison if you’re looking at comparing different suburbs.
What’s the idea behind it, Josh? Who do you see as the ideal user?
Josh: What we wanted to show people and property investors out there was that it’s not always about the short-term gain in terms of what the rental is and how much money you’re going to get back in your pocket every week. We’re really long-term investors. We’re definitely buy and hold. We’re focused on that capital growth.
I thought it was really important to show investors how suburbs compared against each other. For example, if you have $500,000 to spend in the marketplace, over the last ten-year period, where would you have gotten the best growth out of that?
This little app, very simply, allows you to put in your investment amount, to put in your investment period, and then based on whether it’s a house or a unit, you can actually compare suburbs against each other. You compare two suburbs across the whole of Australia, so you could compare a suburb in Perth against a suburb in Sydney, for example, if you were looking to invest in either of those spots and see how they turned out over the last ten years.
Kevin: Try it out for yourself. It’s called Suburb Investor. Just go to the app store, put in “Suburb Investor” and it’ll come up for you quite easily.
Mate, because we’re well and truly into 2016 now, let’s have a look back at 2015. What do you think we’ll be saying about this year, 2016, about this time next year?
Josh: I think we’re still going to see the momentum from Sydney carrying through. I always liken the property market to an ocean liner. If you look at the stock market, it’s like a little Jet Ski. It zips up and down and it can change on a dime, whereas the property market, it’s like an ocean liner. It takes a long time to get going. It also takes a long time to stop. There is a lot of momentum in it.
I think while Sydney has had that very, very strong growth, and even Melbourne as well, we’re still going to see probably 5% to 7% growth over the period as that market slows down. There is still some money left in there.
I think we’re also going to see a rise in premium homes, let’s say above $1.5 million probably in Sydney and definitely in Melbourne. I think there is a lot of money and equity that has been generated over the last two to three years with people who have held property in that market and now have the ability to trade up or even invest elsewhere.
But I think from an investment point of view, we’re going to see probably a lot more influence from those APRA regulations, which really kicked in in the second half of 2015. The APRA regulations forced investors to do a number of things. First of all, it forced them to put bigger deposits into their investments, and it also forced them to look for more high-yielding properties because they needed stronger servicing to do that.
What we’re probably going to see is a trend through 2016 to those more affordable markets with stronger yields. For that reason, I do see Brisbane… I know Brisbane is probably 50/50 at the moment for a lot of people because we expected to see a lot happen in 2015 and it really didn’t take off, but I do see that Brisbane market and even the Gold Coast market for some of the infrastructure projects that are going in there.
It’s been flat for so long, it’s a very affordable market especially compared to a lot of the eastern coast cities. I think we’re seeing a lot of strong yields there, which are 5.5%, 6.5% there, which are really going to be attractive for investors through 2016.
I think coupled with infrastructure projects from Toowoomba to Sunshine Coast down to the Gold Coast, I think that’s going to be a real hot spot coming up into 2016.
Kevin: Are they the ones you highlight around Australia as the ones to watch in 2016 – Gold Coast and some of the southern suburbs of Brisbane?
Josh: I do. Gold Coast is definitely coming onto my radar now for affordability, and not only that, for the interest that it’s getting from the Chinese market on the residential level. You have that $1 billion Jewel residential and wholesale being built there. You have the Commonwealth Games coming in there. The light rail link from Southport to Broad Beach is improving connection there. Not just that, but the Toowoomba bypass is happening one hour west of Brisbane.
Brisbane has had about $19 billion worth of infrastructure put into it in terms of roads and connections through to the airport, which has been fantastic. We’re seeing that university hospital being built up in Sunshine Coast, 3500 jobs being put into there, and I think it’s going to be a real hub for activity in the coming year.
Look, coming into this period where we’re going to see slow economic growth for the country overall because of the mining decline, I think we’re going to have to look to areas that have that infrastructure injection into the economy because that’s really where growth is going to be created.
The same goes for Sydney, as well. We’re seeing $1 in every $2 spent in that triangle in the western suburbs of Sydney, $26 billion between Parramatta, Penrith, and Liverpool and down to Badgerys Creek. That area is really going to be probably the future center of growth for Sydney as it moves through its current growth cycle.
Kevin: Great view there, Josh. Thank you so much for your time. Josh Masters from BuySide.com.au. Check out that app, as well, Suburb Investor.
Josh, great talking to you, mate. All the best for 2016. I look forward to talking to you as the year unfolds.
Josh: My pleasure, Kevin. Thanks for having me.
Pete Wargent
Kevin: With his view on what’s happening with the market in 2016, Pete Wargent joins me. Pete, of course, is very active on the Internet with his predictions about what’s happening with property, not only in Australia but worldwide.
Hi, Pete. How are you?
Pete: Good. Thanks, Kevin.
Kevin: Good to be talking to you again, Pete. What do you think we’ll be saying about the property market this time next year? What do you think 2016 is going to hold?
Pete: I think during some of this year’s exuberance, I believe a significant number of investors would have bought off-the-plan properties with only small deposits to hand. I think 2016 could be a year when APRA’s tightening measures towards investor lending could cause problems for some of those off-the-plan buyers who will end up with a deposit shortfall at settlement. There could be some fallout from that.
I think that 2016 will also be the year the media latches on that going forward, it’ll be the immigration of international students rather than arrivals on 457 visas that are actually driving Australia’s immigration and population growth.
Enrollments and grants for students are starting to ratchet up, so with hundreds of thousands of student arrivals over the next few years mainly headed for Sydney and Melbourne, that’s going to create a lot of demand for rental property close to the city centers just at the same time that APRA is hosing down the investor sector.
Finally, I think 2016 could be a year to expect the unexpected. A lot of market commentary revolves around the notion that “This can’t happen or that can’t happen.” But I’ve been in Britain this month and a lot of things that weren’t supposed to happen have happened, particularly in the investor space.
Back in Australia, we’ve seen APRA introduce macro prudential measures this year. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more tweaks in 2016 in the wake of [1:43 inaudible] resulting in tighter capital requirements and lower loan-to-value ratios. In terms of what this means for investors in 2016, they’re likely to require substantial deposits.
Kevin: You mentioned there APRA, and there have been some reports that the moves by APRA have really played into the hands of the bank and that it’s almost given them an open checkbook to increase rates whenever they feel like it because of these macro prudential controls. What’s your view on that?
Pete: I think what we’ll find in 2016 is investor lending will continue to slow. The banks will actually be looking to push owner-occupier lending harder to compensate for the slowdown in investor lending. There will be a bit of a switch in the market, but that may be no bad thing. I think the investor market – in certain areas, anyway – was getting a bit overheated.
Kevin: What are the markets you’ll be looking at in Australia in 2016, Pete?
Pete: Well, 2015 was another huge year for Sydney. I think in 2016, all eyes will be on Queensland to see how the Brisbane market fares in particular. I think investors should be wary of some of those inner city suburbs where apartments are being overbuilt. Look at the middle ring suburbs, properties that are strong land value content, an owner-occupier feel, transport links, and reasonable yields.
Kevin: Are you a bit concerned about an oversupply of units in the inner city of Brisbane?
Pete: Yes, certainly. There are a number of former industrial suburbs. There has been a lot of re-zoning, record high building approvals this year, so there are a lot of apartments to buy in some of those inner suburbs, which I’ve think we talked about on this show before.
Kevin: What about some of the regional markets around Australia, Pete? Are any standing out for you?
Pete: From a high-level point of view, just looking at the economy, we’re going to see probably another weak period for the Aussie dollar. So if you’re looking at regional markets, I’d be looking at places like the Gold Coast that will benefit from the lower dollar. I think that would be on area in particular which could see some upside.
Kevin: Pete, thank you so much for your time. I look forward to working with you again in 2016. Pete Wargent, of course, and the book “Take a Financial Leap” – your new book – that’s out by, is it Big Sky Publishing?
Pete: Big Sky Publishing.
Kevin: Whereabouts can we get that one, Pete?
Pete: At all good bookstores.
Kevin: Excellent. “Take a Financial Leap,” Pete Wargent.
Pete, we’ll talk to you again soon. Thanks, mate.
Pete: Pleasure, Kevin.