Where are the property hot spots for 2015? That’s what I ask Michael Yardney in this weeks show and you may be surprised by his answer. Or maybe you won’t be. Either way, list in or read the transcript of our show and find out.
Also this week Bryce Holdaway, the host of Location, Location, Location Australia gives us his tips on buying at auction and Brad Beer from BMT tells us about accidental property investors.
Also Rob Balanda answers a listener’s question: “Should I have a fixed contract or a cost plus contract building contract and do the banks like one over the other?
Cate Bakos takes us into inner city Melbourne and tells us about an area there she has picked as having good investment potential.
And Andrew Mirams explains why being a property developer isn’t all its cracked up to be.
Transcripts
Michael Yardney
Kevin: One of the hot topics is always hot spots. Do hot spots exist? It’s a great opportunity. A lot of people see it as an opportunity to get in it and make some money quickly. I’m going to ask Michael Yardney about this because it must be one of those things, Michael, that you’re asked quite often. What’s going to be the next hot spot? Is it something that people ask you?
Michael: Kevin, interesting that you say that because only a couple of days ago I was rung by a journalist from one of the major daily websites, and he asked my thoughts on the hot spots for next year. He said, “Last year, one of the most looked at blogs/articles was actually the hot spots for 2014. Could you update your thoughts?”
Kevin: So, what did you say?
Michael: Well, before I answered I actually looked at the website, and I saw what the article said. I saw my comments, and other people’s comments and I looked at how those suburbs, those hot spots, actually performed.
Interesting would be a good choice of word – in fact, a generous choice – because some of them underperformed. Just like when you look back a year or two ago, Moranbah was the next hot spot, and Port Hedland was, and Mandurah, and Cairns, and Gladstone. So, I didn’t give him any hot spots.
Kevin: Interesting that you should say this because I have actually followed some people who predict hot spots, and one of the things that I’ve noticed is that they make these predictions, but they very rarely want to be held accountable for them. One person in particular has actually come back and said he understands why people who probably have bought into mining areas might be a little bit concerned about that decision. This is after only 12 months earlier he had been recommending them, Michael.
Michael: Kevin, that’s why I don’t like looking for hot spots. Therefore, I know some people call me old and fuddy-yuddy and I’m missing the get-rich-quick things. And yes, I am. But by going for the more stable markets, you may miss the short-term hot spot, but you’re not going to be part of that landscape that’s littered with investors who have lost money in the hot spots.
Kevin: Yeah, you’ve only got to look at Moranbah and places like that where there were big gains to be made there, but there were some massive losses.
Michael: It depends so much on timing. I don’t want to choose investments that I’ve got to time right, because even I, with all our research, find it hard. I’d rather find investments that I can actually buy well in to do well.
Kevin: Michael, looking at next year, what will drive the markets?
Michael: I think we’re going to have the impact of wildly volatile Australian dollar. There’s still going to be overseas problems next year. There’s going to still be a flood of foreign investors coming in. Super-funds are going to keep investing. And we are going to have another year of low, and I believe, reasonably stable interest rates. Now they’re all easy to look at in the rear-vision mirror. What’s going to be ahead I think is much more difficult, maybe impossible, to judge. But I can see a couple of positive factors for 2015.
Kevin: What would they be?
Michael: I think the momentum of our markets is going to still drive us. Remember, Sydney and Melbourne has had such strong markets that we get that wealth effect. Many of us are feeling wealthier as the value of our homes goes up and we’re going to want to invest again, while others are feeling they’ve missed out, so they’re going to buy into property too. Number one, momentum.
Number two, I think the interest rates are still going to be favorable for investors – low most of next year. I still see reasonably strong population growth. Probably not as strong as last year, but still strong growth. And our economy is picking up. It won’t be as strong as we would’ve hoped, but it’s still going to be better than most western countries. And on the back of that, there will be stronger job growth, and therefore increasing consumer confidence.
A combination of all of these factors suggests to me that inner and middle ring suburbs – in particular, in Sydney, Melbourne, and Brisbane – are going to do well. But I think our capital cities in the other areas are going to languish a bit. Perth is catching its breath. It had too good a run for a while. And the other capitals just don’t seem to have the economic strength to attract strong population growth that drives our property markets.
Kevin: Just wondering if at the start of next year for our first program, if we look at ways to identify underperforming properties. That’s a great way to start the year, I would’ve thought.
Michael: I think it will be a good opportunity, Kevin, so I look forward to it.
Kevin: Thank you for being with us, and your very valuable contribution. Michael Yardney from Metropole Property Strategists. Of course, you can follow Michael all the time on his channel on www.RealEstateTalk.com.au. Just check it out. There are lots of good videos and audios appearing there. In fact, we’re posting onto www.RealEstateTalk.com.au every single day, so keep coming back to the site and checking it out. Michael, once again, thanks very much.
Michael: My pleasure, Kevin.
Bryce Holdaway
Kevin: I’m joined now by the co-host of “Location, Location, Location Australia”, a great program, Bryce Holdaway. Good day, Bryce!
Bryce: Hello, Kevin. How are you?
Kevin: Good, mate. Heading towards the end of the year, looking forward to a big 2015. I want to get you to come back next week in the show, too, and tell me about your big tip from 2014. But right now, Bryce, I’d like to know what are your tips if you’re going to be bidding at auction between now and Christmas?
Bryce: What I find is most people don’t really like the auction process. I usually find on the show that there’s quite a lot of the people who say that if it’s going to auction, they actually want to pass on that property because they don’t really like the process. My view is if you can actually understand the process and get some skills and some tips around it, it makes it a little less daunting.
Kevin: You’ve actually done a series of videos on how to bid, or your tips at auction. It’s at the website www.EmpowerWealth.com.au. Just click on the “Education” link and follow it through to the How To’s. Let’s do a summary of those, and I’ll mention that website again at the end. What’s your first tip for people?
Bryce: The first one is to attend auctions, and loads of them. And by that I mean, in the lead up to going to the auction that’s going to be live for you, go and visit as many auctions as you possibly can prior to the process, including the ones where your auctioneer is doing some in advance because it gives you a couple of things that you can focus on. One, you can understand the market activities, so you can understand what the price guides are (say, $600 to 660) but the prices are probably going about 10% above the top end. You can actually see where real price activity is.
You can also understand if there’s only one bidder at these auctions, you know that the market is a little bit quiet for that particular property. The alternative is if there are five, or six, or seven bidders you know there are lots of buyers out and you really got to use that as preparation for working up a price you’d like to be able to pay.
Kevin: So, tip number one: attend lots of auctions. What’s number two?
Bryce: Set your limit before you turn up on the day, because it’s a really emotion-charged environment. You’ve got ice running through your veins. I’ve done hundreds of auctions, myself, and I still got the pulse rate certainly up. Make sure you set your limit prior based on recent comparable sales.
And then once you set that limit, make sure you don’t stop at only round numbers ending with a zero – or for me a five. I bought a property on Saturday, at auction for a client, where I bought it for $796,000. And the person who was the under-bidder threw everything they had at it, and they stopped at $795,000. So $1,000, and I was able to pick it up for my client.
Kevin: Great tip there. Number three?
Bryce: You’ve got to get your ducks in a row. Quite often I see a lot of people who will turn up at an auction, and haven’t got their finance in order. And that’s more than just getting the bank saying, “Yep, you’re good for it.” I think you should actually get a formal pre-approval in place, and then also get your equity released so that you’ve got your deposit and your stamp duty and costs all ready to go.
Equally, make sure that if you are getting a loan-to-valuation ratio that’s in excess of 90%. Make sure you’re not creating a pioneer price in the suburb, because the valuers might be a little bit more conservative if you’re paying a pioneering price, and you’re lending at a very aggressive level.
Kevin: There are lots of tips in those videos that I mentioned at the start of the interview, too. One that I picked up in that one (number three) was getting access to the photos that’s been used in the marketing.
Bryce: I like to get the contract reviewed prior to turning up on the day, so I can make sure there are no red flags. But I also want to put some clauses in the process, or into the contract. For me, I’m buying for a lot of investors, so I want to put a clause in that says (a) I can advertise the property prior to settlement (b) I can use the campaign photos to try and attract a tenant and (c) I can actually get a property manager reasonable access into the property so that they can take their own photos.
I’m trying to make it as seamless as possible, getting the tenant in place and settlement date. If I don’t have those clauses in place, quite reasonably, the current owner might say no to those, what I would consider reasonable requests.
Kevin: Bryce Holdaway is our guest. He’s the co-host of Location, Location, Location Australia, giving you his tips for auction. Number four, I really loved because you talked about the transparency of the process and not to be afraid of it, Bryce.
Bryce: Yeah, I don’t think you should be afraid of it. It definitely favors, first of all, the real estate agent first, and then the seller second, and the poor old buyer is third in the process. I say if you could actually do some of these things that we’re talking about this morning, that you could see on those videos, if you prepare yourself well, it will give you real confidence to make sure that you’ll give yourself the best chance. I think it’s a really transparent process.
For example, if I’m going private sale, I’m up against another person and they’re prepared to pay $620,000. I’ll never know how much they’re prepared to pay because it’s quiet, and it’s in stealth with the agent. I might put an offer in for say $650,000, and I’ll actually never know that I’ve paid $30,000 more than the next best person was prepared to pay. But that’s, in fact, the reality.
Whereas in the auction process, being transparent, I’m really only going to be paying $1,000 or $500 more than the next best person. So at least I know that I am not hugely over paying what the next closest person would be prepared to pay.
Kevin: That makes so much sense, too. If you’re a bit afraid about going to an auction, you could always use a buyer’s agent. That’s your fifth tip, Bryce.
Bryce: It is. Buyer’s agents are generally in the market every weekend. They’ve seen the process. They’re not spending their own money. They respect the fact that it’s a lot of money for their client. But they’re actually not spending their own money, so that emotion is actually removed from the equation, and because we’re in the market all the time, we know what those comparable sales are. We know we should reasonably set limits.
We’ve got some strategies and techniques around the performance on the day, in terms of bidding. We can also help our clients if, in fact, there is an opportunity to get a pre-auction offer away because of the strength of our relationships with the agent. Chances are, we’ll have a better chance of doing it than the general public.
Kevin: Make sure you have a look at those videos that are on the website from Bryce. Bryce Holdaway is the co-host of Location, Location, Location Australia. Their website again, is www.EmpowerWealth.com.au. Look for the education link and follow it through to the How To’s. They’re all there. Bryce, all the best.
I’ll give you a week to think about the answer to my question, which we’ll put in next week’s show. That is the lesson you’ve learned from 2014 that you’ll take through to 2015. Thanks for your time, mate!
Bryce: Thank you, Kevin. I look forward to it.
Brad Beer
Kevin: More and more Australians every year are becoming property investors, sometimes accidentally, by changing their principle place of residence to an income-producing investment property. First homebuyers, as an example, have to live in a property for an extended period of time to qualify for the first home owners grant. But what happens when they move out to make it an investment property? What are the issues? Let’s find out.
Brad Beer from BMT Tax Depreciation joins me. Brad, what are the issues for people in that position?
Brad: Hi, Kevin. There will be a big change because it becomes an investment property. There will be a number of things that will obviously become deductible and one of those deductions is tax depreciation against their property, which is what we get involved in. Just the fact that it’s been changed to an investment property, a lot of things are treated differently from a tax perspective.
Kevin: What can a quantity surveyor do to help maximize the cash return when this happens?
Brad: Depreciation relates to investment property. What we do as a quantity surveyor is help maximize those depreciation deductions to get you more cash back on those properties. Often the one that’s missed out is people that live in their property and then they move out of it because they didn’t buy it as an investment property, but the deduction is still there. We want to make sure you get all of those deductions if you do move out of that property and use it as an investment.
Kevin: Apart from first home buyers, there are others who may decide to turn their principle place of residence into an investment as a transfer, as an example. What happens if they then want to move back after that transfer has expired?
Brad: The fact is whether you’re a first home buyer that moves out or someone who lived in it that’s not a first time buyer anyone who moves out of their property and decides to use it as a rental, it becomes an investment property.
If they want to move back in, things like depreciation and the other tax deductions associated you won’t be able to claim when you move back in, but depreciation will be claimable for that period while you do move out of it. If you move back in, then move out again, then both deductions including that depreciation should be available in that time when you move out the next time. You can change it over time and it’s fine.
Kevin: When someone’s living in a property before they rent it out, Brad, are any of the improvements to the property that they do while they are in occupation able to be depreciated?
Brad: A great question, Kevin. When you live in your house and you do a renovation, effectively all of those things that you spend money on are kind of depreciating, because you put your carpet in there and while you’re using it, it’s depreciating, but you can’t claim it while you’re living in there. But once you move out, it still has some depreciation going on, so you get to claim it. Depreciation always happens. It’s just you only get to make a deduction for it when it’s being used as an investment property.
Where a quantity surveyor comes into that is, if you’ve lived in the property, generally you don’t keep all of your receipts, because you think you’re just doing a renovation to your house and they’re not tax deductions. But if you do move out a couple of years later, we can work an estimate and the tax office will accept those estimates of what that renovation would have cost, because you don’t have all of that information and prepare that depreciation for what those deductions would be.
Kevin: Great stuff! Brad Beer from BMT Tax Depreciation. Use the button on our website to contact the guys if you have any questions and make sure you’re not amongst all those investors who don’t get depreciation schedules done. Brad, good talking to you. We’ll catch up again soon.
Brad: Thanks very much, Kevin. Goodbye.
Rob Balanda
Kevin: Property investment, property development. In life you’ve got to treat these things like a bit of a journey. Treat them a bit like a game rather than a high-stakes involvement. Rob Balanda from MBA Lawyers has written quite a lot about this.
Rob, I want to talk to you specifically about building contracts, and whether or not we’re best taking a fixed-price contract or a cost-plus contract. That’s a question that’s posed quite often of us. What would be your response?
Rob: With building contracts, Kevin, a threshold question starting point is to decide whether to have a fixed-price contract or a cost-plus contract. Every person looking at a building contract has to make that fundamental start. For my money, I’ve always been more of a fan of a cost-plus contract. I’ve never been driven by the joy of driving the builder down to the bottom line, and locking in to do a deal with a fixed-price contract with him.
I’ve never needed to get the very last dollar out of my fellow man. My philosophy is to pay a fair price for quality work. I don’t want the builder coming back at me because this can backfire on you. They can purge their aggressions signing up too cheaply by sticking it to you with variations. They can be pretty free and easy with the variations. That’s how a disgruntled builder will ramp up the price again, to recover some of the losses they made when they too keenly priced a contract with you, when they gave you a fixed-price.
Kevin: I guess the only thing I’d say is that you really have to know your business if you’re going to go into a cost-plus contract because you’ve got to know what the costs are, or what reasonable costs are, to start with, haven’t you?
Rob: That’s right. There are things you can do to belts and braces. You can ask the builder to get three quotes. You can get a quantity surveyor to double-check the costings from the builder. You can ask the builder to give you a schedule of anticipated costs for each trade and supplier to keep them honest.
But at the end of the day, that’s just belts and braces. There’s a lot of trust with a cost-plus contract. The three quotes, how do you know whether these quotes are real? In the building game, everyone has their mate.
A builder will call his two mates for a second and a third quote, and they’ll give him quotes that will allow him to become the preferred supplier. They’ll be loaded quotes, if I could put it that way. He’ll repay them when later on down the track they ask him for a second and a third quote. How do you know that’s not going on? It does. In a cost-plus situation, you’re relying on him to pass it on.
Say this scenario. A plumber that he deals with daily (only he knows this, not you) just lost a big job, so they’ve got a two week window of opportunity in the next month when they’ve got no jobs going, so they price your plumbing job for $40,000. But you know, as the builder, they’ll do it for $30,000.
You’re trusting your builder to take advantage of that opportunity and save you the $10,000, but they may just decide to tell the plumber to submit their usual invoice and ask them to pass on the $10,000 discount on another job. There’s an awful lot of trust there involved.
On balance, I prefer a fixed-price contract at the end of the day. I’d go with that in most cases rather than a cost-plus. Unless you have that high level of trust between you and your builder, it’s preferable to use a fixed-price contract.
Kevin: I can see your experience coming out inthis conversation, Rob. You’ve done this on many occasions. Let me ask this ,though, how would someone of a more conservative nature, like an accountant, how would they feel if I were to go to them and ask them the same question? The other part of this question is how do the banks feel about these sorts of contracts (cost-plus) or would they prefer to see a fixed-price?
Rob: I don’t want to say banks are uncomfortable, but they’re cautious about construction loans. This would be a construction loan you’d be getting from your bank, so they’ll want certainty. The more certainty, the better. They’ll prefer a fixed-price for sure. The thing about fixed-price is some people say that if the builder strikes rock and they’ve got to put in a better slab, it’s a bit harsh for them if they’ve got to pick up the tab for that. That’s a genuine blow-out.
But you, as the owner, can if there’s an unexpected genuine blow-out, there’s nothing to stop you if you’ve agreed to a fixed-price contract paying the builder a bonus – say an extra $10,000 or $20,000 – to cover that unexpected cost, if you think it’s the right thing to do.
Kevin: If it’s reasonable. I guess that’s a dual advantage. You’ve got the certainty of a fixed-price contract, but you’ve got that flexibility to move it out a little bit to help the builder in those genuine cases, Rob.
Rob: Yes. Whatever contract you have, my final point, is have a serious man-to-man discussion with your builder face-to-face, not on the phone. Eyeball the guy, and say, “Listen, mate, I know we’ve agreed. We’ve struck a deal and we’ve agreed on whatever contract. I hear stories and I’m concerned that everything you’ve allowed here for all these costings is genuine and reasonable and fair. I just don’t want to see multiple variations of contracts come in, and the price being ramped up in that way. I’ve got your assurance, man-to-man, that this is all genuine and fair dinkum.
Ask him that same question a couple of times, and look him in the eye. You want that level of comfort. You don’t want to get another 20 extra invoices for variations. That’s how they recover their ground.
Kevin: Great advice, Rob. I really appreciate you taking your time out to share this experience with us. I know a lot of this is your own practical experience. Thank you.
If you want to contact Rob, you can always do that through their website or go directly to MBA Lawyers. You’ll find them on the Gold Coast in Queensland, and Rob Balanda is the man to talk to. Rob, thanks so much for your time.
Rob: Good day to you, Kevin.
Cate Bakos
Kevin: It’s time to turn the spotlight once again on a suburb around Australia that one of our experts has highlighted as an area that they’re particularly interested in. This week we’re looking at an area in Melbourne with Cate Bakos from CateBakos.com.au. Cate, thanks for your time.
Cate: Thank you for having me, Kevin.
Kevin: What’s the area that you’ve chosen?
Cate: One of my favorites is Kensington, just four kilometers northwest of the city.
Kevin: Why have you chosen that area, Cate?
Cate: Kensington has something for a few different types of investors. It has a beautiful housing market with lots of period Victorians, but then in the newer part of Kensington, which used to be the cattle yards, we’ve got 80s and 90s style townhouses and units, which offers some fantastic returns.
Kevin: What type of person or family do you think will be drawn to living in that area?
Cate: Well, being that distance from the city and having pretty fantastic commuter options, we have a lot of young professionals in Kensington. In fact, it’s a very strong demand area and rental yields are higher here than in any surrounding area.
Kevin: What type of property would you recommend an investor should be looking at in the Kensington area?
Cate: We have some attractive growth showing for the period properties, houses that have been tracking recently just shy of 10%. If we’ve got a capital growth investor who isn’t so reliant on the returns, then a house is a great option. But if they’re looking at strong returns and a combination of growth and yield, then the dated townhouses are fantastic because they are offering returns sometimes as high as 5%.
Kevin: What do you think is attracting people to that area, Cate?
Cate: Proximity to the city, but also the vibrant village. Kensington has some great cafes and restaurants, and it has a real mix of shopping for people. It’s so close to the city with such an easy option in to town.
Kevin: Let’s dig a bit deeper and look at stats. What are the medians like for houses and units?
Cate: Houses are tracking just above the $700,000 mark and units are in the early to mid-400s. So, very affordable, but obviously they are median value. I’m able to find a good two-bedroom apartments in boutique blocks for just under $400 in some circumstances.
Kevin: That’s good buying. You mentioned returns earlier. Let’s get a bit more specific. What are the returns like for houses and units?
Cate: Houses we probably are looking at the typical 3.6 to 3.9% gross rental yield. The units are the surprise bag here because we can get some dated units that are offering returns of around 4.5% and that’s not unusual in Kensington. In fact, I just had one recently that hit 5.2%
Kevin: Wow, that’s good. What about growth going forward and what about historic growth?
Cate: Growth going forward is pretty attractive for houses. We’ve gotten around that 10% now and obviously Melbourne is having a pretty good run at the moment. But units are a little more patchy. It really comes down to carefully selecting a unit, because the data is showing around 2% and 3% at the moment, but the reality is there is a combination of newer, higher density housing in Kensington and the older, more established stock.
I’m finding that history has shown in the last three to four years that growth for units has certainly been stronger than 2% and 3%.
Kevin: Cate, thank you very much for giving us that rundown on the Kensington area. There it is. Our expert spotlight for this week is Kensington in Victoria, and our guest has been Cate Bakos (CateBakos.com.au). Thanks for your time.
Cate: Thanks for having me, Kevin.
Andrew Mirams
Kevin: It’s great to be called a developer, but what does it really mean? How do the banks look at you when you tell them you’re a developer? And really, is just doing a small residential development making you a developer?
Andrew Mirams from Intuitive Finance is a great supporter of ours in Real Estate Talk, and in fact, has a wonderful channel that you should have a look at. There’s lots of information going up there all the time on Andrew’s channel. He joins today. Good day, Andrew!
Andrew: Hi, Kevin! How are you?
Kevin: Good, mate. What does it mean when I call myself a developer, and really, what makes a developer?
Andrew: Well, that’s probably the first point. What is a developer? I’ve had clients come in and say they want to do a development, and actually all they’re doing is minor renovation on their property. I guess it’s in the eyes of the beholder, isn’t it? If you think traditionally you’d call a developer doing what would be their line of business.
But there are lots of people in the market that are financing developments, and we’ll talk about what we’d talk about there, in all sorts of different ways all the time.
Kevin: Doing a renovation, even though I might be doing it all the time and it’s what I do, doesn’t necessarily make me a developer. Is that what you’re saying?
Andrew: No, it wouldn’t. A renovation. You might be developing your property. I guess that’s the play on words. So, if you’re developing your property, if you’re improving it or what is the terms of a development – yes, you’re developing it. You’re adding value-adding to your portfolio, but a development would normally be you’re actually building something from new.
It wouldn’t be adding a room onto a home. That would be generally classed as a renovation, and a bank would normally always look at those just as residential terms. Whereas, when banks hear the term development, the first thing that their ears will pop up is, “Is this to hold or is this to sell?” That’s probably one of the key things with a development, and development finance.
Kevin: So what are the traps there? What are the things you need to be wary of when you’re talking to the bank about this?
Andrew: Probably the outcome, why you’re developing. The people that are flipping and are trying to build and time the market and build up equity really quick could be very dangerous if the market turns and things like that. A development would generally take a while to turn around from start to finish.
If you’re buying a property, and you just want to knock it over and put side-by-side townhouses or front-and-back or something like that and value-add the property, and put two on a good-sized block that formally only had one, get a much better rent and things like that – you’re going to add that to your property portfolio – that I think is an investment, not a development. So, we would generally try and always finance that as residential rates that we’re improving the property to hold as an investment and add to our portfolio.
Kevin: I think we’re getting down to the business part of it now. That gets back to that key question. You said the banks are going to ask. The first thing they’ll say, “Is this to hold, or is this to actually sell on? Are you flipping it?”
Andrew: Absolutely. And a larger development, Kevin. If you’re building four, six, eight, ten, twelve units and things like that, often on those bigger projects, we’re talking now millions of dollars. They’ll want to get some sort of debt coverage. Very rarely would clients be actually building that type of property to retain all of it.
Generally, there are some sales going within to reduce their debt or get some funds to fund that part of the project, rather than an actual developer. Now, we’re talking a full-time developer actually putting all the money up themselves.
Kevin: Do the banks look differently at me as to whether I’m going to sell the whole lot, or whether I want to hold some for myself?
Andrew: Absolutely. Banks make money out of interest, Kevin. They would look more favorably as certainly a residential rate and terms as if you’re building to hold because they’ll look and work with you. If you’re building to sell, you’re basically talking now commercial terms. They’ll charge you higher rates and fees.
There are also some great adds if you’re doing a development lot in terms of they will capitalize the interest and things like that. So you’re not actually paying for that along the journey, but you are paying with it in a different way in terms of rate and fees and what you have to do and probably a lot of the covenants on the debt, when it can be drawn, and what you need to do, and the reporting around that are a hell of a lot different.
Kevin: Good. If you want to learn more about what we’ve been discussing here with Andrew Mirams, contact him certainly through the sponsored channel website at Real Estate Talk. Just go and have a look at Andrew’s channel there. All the contact details are there. Andrew from Intuitive Finance, thank you so much for your time!
Andrew: My pleasure, Kevin. Have a great day!