While many of us love the idea of finding the next property hotspot and making our fortune, how do we know whether we’re making a wise investment choice or just gambling? So how do you know whether you’re investing in a low risk area or simply rolling the dice? Josh Masters has some good advice around that question.
This week we look at reports that unscrupulous buyers, with the help or encouragement of certain buyer’s agents, are using dirty tricks to secure properties at auction in our current hot auction markets. The practice, known as “collusive bidding” is illegal and is happening in Melbourne and Sydney. Michael Yardney explains how to pick it, how it can impact you and what to do if you see it happening.
Property investment can be a risky step for a first time investor. Getting as many things right as possible is vital to achieving a successful result from your investing experience. Learn how to avoid the 2 biggest mistakes that property investors make as we talk with Craig Whaley from NPA Property Group.
There is always a lot of media coverage devoted to highlighting the struggles of first-home buyers. But while some aspiring first home buyers complain about rising property values and dwindling government assistance, others are taking the bull by the horns and turning conventional thinking on its head. Buyers’ agent Damian Collins will explain.
We have some news on how you can find out what you can afford as an investor and where you should buy. It’s a free online tool. Jane Slack-Smith tells us about it and she also gives us an update on what’s happening with interest rates right now.
Transcripts
Jane Slack-Smith
Kevin: With all the talk about interest rates right now, it might be a good time for you to check around and see what rates are going because the banks are in pretty hot competition. Let’s get a bit of a feel for what is happening. Jane Slack-Smith is a director of Investors Choice Mortgages and also has some great news for us about a new tool that can actually not only help you calculate what you can borrow, but it tells you where you can buy as well. I’m going to tell you more about that in just a moment. Let me firstly introduce into the conversation, Jane Slack-Smith, a director of Investors Choice Mortgages. Jane, thanks for your time.
Jane: Thanks, Kevin.
Kevin: This is a great time to be hunting around for a better deal. The banks are in in pretty hot competition right now?
Jane: Absolutely. This is a great time to have your finances and your lending reviewed. There’s really great interest rates out there and there’s discounts for the asking. It’s a good time to look at fixed rates, but more importantly we’re at this perfect storm where we have a lot of equity in our properties. A lot of our properties have gone up in value in the last couple of years. We had our borrowing capacity at the best that it’s ever been because interest rates are so low. In actual fact it’s a really great time for people to not just look at their current lending needs, but their future lending needs and get some great rates.
Kevin: Okay. You’re going to be shopping around. Should you talk to your own bank first or just go to another bank or a broker?
Jane: Obviously the mortgage broker, I’m on the side of mortgage broker, 50% of Australian fee, but the reality is that you want to be able to streamline your time so that we both can assist you and then up to date with what’s happening in the market. You might go to a bank and ask what were you going to give me, the $250,000 of lending. What’s the best rate? The reality is that you might actually have ample lending that your broker can have a look at and that total lending could get you even a better discount. That’s knowing the right questions as well. Look, I definitely talk to different banks. Talk to your existing bank, but it’s more about looking at long term needs. You’re jumping into a fixed rate right now for five years. if you’re looking to sell that property in three years’ time could actually cost you a lot. Rather than looking at isolation at just a cheap right now, it’s about at your total lending needs and your requirements for the future.
Kevin: Jane, just to be clear here. We’re not actually talking about applying for a loan with another bank? We’re just going to go have an informal chat with them because I think isn’t that recorded when you apply for a loan?
Jane: Yeah. if you actually go through and apply for a loan and go through a full application, the lender is going to hit your credit file. We noticed 12th of March 2014 with the Privacy Act you really want to protect that credit file because the lenders will see everything that’s on there and they actually apply real harsh credit scoring. We want to make sure that this is just an initial conversation which is hey to my existing lender, what can you do for me? Or potentially getting a broker to go to and have a discussion with other lenders about your total borrowing capacity and potentially what discounts you can have. Now that’s before you actually even put an application in.
Kevin: If anything it’s reinforcing the argument for or the suggestion that you should go through a broker because I think in the first instance brokers really have their feet on the ground and they know about what banks are offering. You don’t even really have to approach a bank.
Jane: Absolutely. I know with our business we’re talking every day with lenders and we’re putting different scenarios up. No one has the veneer ideal. Not everyone has a PIAYJ with a great income and a 20% deposit. often what you’re doing is you’re actually going to the right lender right off the bat depending on the person or the asset circumstances, but also because we’re negotiating, talking to the lenders every day. We know what’s available and what’s out there? We can really streamline the right suggestion very quickly for the client.
Kevin: Now, your website, Investors Choice.com that you’ve got a property plus calculator. Tell me about that.
Jane: I’m really excited about this, Kevin. we’ve got some borrowing capacity calculator out there that tell us what we can borrow, but this calculator is a little bit different because once you determine what you can borrow using the calculator, you can then actually go through and look at where you can afford. it actually works out your borrowing capital with the purchase price and then it says based on this information and today’s median values and you put in your region and they decide it’s house or units, it will now tell you what you can afford and not just the one area you can afford, but the surrounding areas. You can look at some median process surrounding areas and per square for the last 12 months in pennies. In addition to that, you can use that search a bit of horse body. You can actually ascertain based on an area that you want to look at, maybe the surrounding areas that have some more potential for growth and you can start targeting those for your next purchase.
Kevin: There you go. It’s called the Property Plus calculator and you’ll find that at the website InvestorsChoice.com.au. My guest has been Jane Slack-Smith. Jane, thanks for your time.
Jane: Thanks, Kevin.
Michael Yardney
Kevin: In recent weeks we have actually spoken to a number of people about the dirty tricks that go on at auction. There’s been a lot of reports in recent publications about unscrupulous buyers with the help and encouragement, I might add, of certain buyer’s agents using dirty tricks to secure properties at auction in our current hot auction markets, particularly in Sydney and Melbourne. Let’s see how you can safeguard against this and what are some of the better principles that you should have in place if you’re going to be buying at auction. Michael Yardney, from Metropole Property Strategists, who is not one of those unscrupulous buyers agents who does this sort of thing, joins us-
Michael: Thanks for making that clear right at the beginning Kevin[inaudible 00:00:41] .
Kevin: Well, I thought I’d better put that disclaimer in there, Michael.
Michael: We are out there bidding for our clients, but, there are lots of good and ethical ways to do it.
Kevin: Well, of course there are. I mean let’s face it, buyer’s agents work for the buyer. As you say, you’ve also got to have relationships with all of the sellers and all of the seller’s agents as well, Michael.
Michael: Sure and you can cross the line. What you’re talking about Kevin is this practice of collusive bidding, which involves two or more bidders who represent the same buyer. What they do is they they go in at the beginning of the auction, creating the impression that there is multiple buyers bidding for the same property. I’m not totally sure, I’ve never done it, but, I understand the theory behind the ploy is to create an expectation in the vendor’s mind that there is good activity below the reserve. What that’s meant to do, Kevin, is to encourage the seller to put his property on the market rather than [inaudible 00:01:27] I guess all of a sudden they all drop out and just one person bids for it.
Kevin: Michael, why would they want to do this? Are they up against dummy bidders, for instance?
Michael: No. I think what they are trying to do is, first of all, potentially scare off other purchasers, making them think there’s lots of other people interested, but, what they are really trying to do is create a false expectation in the vendor, in the seller, that there is lots of people and when they suddenly disappear, well this is the best offer he’s got, he’d better just take it.
Now interestingly, there are penalties, and it varies from state to state, but it’s up to $55,000.00 for corporations. Real estate agents can lose their license. You’re not allowed to induce another person to abstain from bidding or do anything in any way which would prevent free and open competition in an auction. The suggestion here is that there would be an issue doing this. In fact, there have been 55 complaints about auctions so far for the Office of Fair Trading in New South Wales. In New South Wales this a bit harder to do, because every bidder has to be registered. In Victoria anyone can just turn up to an auction, put up his hand and bid for the property. So you don’t really know if they are genuinely interested or not. But there’s other things that a potential purchaser has to put with, as well, Kevin.
Kevin: Like?
Michael: There’s the dummy bidding.
Kevin: Yes.
Michael: It’s illegal, but, I understand from some people it’s still around. Just to make things clear, a dummy bidder is somebody who is not genuine, but, who is there on behalf of the seller who is there to just push up the genuine bidders and create a bit of competitiveness in the auction market.
The other big issue a lot of potential buyers have is under quoting. Something I know you have discussed on your show often, Kevin, of coming along to an auction with an expectation of paying a particular price because that’s what the selling agent said, when, in fact, there was no way in the world you were going to get the property in that price bracket.
Kevin: There is certainly a lot of concern amongst the various [estate 00:03:31] bodies, Office of Fair Trading, about cleaning up the industry. Particularly, around auctions and we’ve seen some of these moves. Let’s say, for example, what’s happened in Queensland,
Michael: Yes.
Kevin: With that possible legislation. It just seems these kinds of practices are just heightening everyone’s concern and may be even bringing on more compelling legislation around Australia that’s going to make it even more difficult to market by auction. Which is a really good way to sell and buy property anyway.
Michael: Kevin, I like selling at auction if I have to sell something, because I know exactly who is out there and what they’re bidding and I’ll get the best price on the table. Of course I don’t have to sell if it doesn’t meet my expectation, my reserve. Kevin, I like buying at auction because I can similarly see who my competition is, and yes, sometimes people play the game and they’re not my genuine competition, but that doesn’t stop me. When I go to auction, Kevin, particularly today in the hot current markets, I already have an expectation in my mind of what I want to pay. If somebody else is going to bid more or less that shouldn’t change my expectation. That’s based on comparable sales by doing my homework by knowing what the property is worth.
Kevin: Yeah.
Michael: Kevin, in today’s market I am also prepared, for a good property ,to even pay a little premium in a rising market. I’m not fussed by having to bid a little more at auction. What I do, rather than collusive bidding and have lots of people try to create a false sense of impression, I go to an auction and bid high right from the start. My tactic, Kevin, is to scare off people legally and correctly by showing my strength, by suggesting that I am going to bid strongly, by saying the whole word “five-hundred and fifty-five thousand dollars” rather that just $5000 increase, and by being firm and by looking the auctioneer or the competition directly in the eye and by that way intimidating them correctly, ethically, legally in a way that’s going to put my client in the best position.
Kevin: I guess doing it the way you do it to you’re going to miss out on a few auctions along the way, but, I guess it’s one way to make sure that you’re not overpaying, Michael; you’re not getting carried away.
Michael: Yes, Kevin, I am going to miss out. Every weekend we have people who, I don’t know, maybe they’re smarter than us, maybe they’re dumber than us, but they fall emotionally in love with a property and they’re going to bid more. Interestingly, while we go to auctions a lot, we probably miss out on about half the auctions we go to. In fact, if my buyer’s agents came along and said to me, “Michael, we got 100% of the auctions.” I’d be worried that they’re bidding too high. Having said that, I like hearing that there’s other competition out there. I’m much happier buying a property for a client where there’s been 5 other bidders who pushed the property higher, than hearing, “Hey there was no one there and we snared a bargain.” If you do that in this market you’d wonder what’s wrong with the property, Kevin.
Kevin: You would indeed. Michael, we’re out of time unfortunately. Great talking with you again. Thank you very much for your time.
Michael: My pleasure, Kevin.
Kevin: Michael Yardeny from Metropole Property Strategists.
Josh Masters
Kevin: While many of us love the idea of finding the next property hot spot and making a fortune, how do we know whether or not we’re making a wise investment choice or whether we’re just gambling because, quite often, you don’t know until it’s too far down the track?
Someone who specializes in making sure that doesn’t happen, that you’re not just gambling, is Josh Masters who is Sydney’s Best Buyers Agent. He joins us on the show. Good day, Josh. How are you doing?
Josh: Good morning, Kevin.
Kevin: You’ve got to get away from it being a gamble, haven’t you?
Josh: Absolutely. I think when a lot of people get into property investment, everybody gets the dollar signs in their eyes and they just think about their reward. Many people who fail to think about the flip side of that, that there is risk associated with buying into a property investment.
Kevin: Okay. Josh, given that’s the case, can you take us through some of the variables in how you look at the market to make sure we don’t go in just for the gamble?
Josh: Yes, absolutely, Kevin. I think starting at the low-risk side of things, we often look at the more traditional suburbs. Generally, those are in the metro areas – in the inner ring or middle ring suburbs where we know that there’s always strong demand, that the population and the economy is very solid. There’s a lot of income there through various industries.
Those suburbs have stood the test of time and they tend to perform very well over the long term when you get into them. They might be a little bit higher priced, but you pay for what you get as well.
Generally, we’re finding those sort of people who are getting into it are more risk-averse. You can be younger or older, but, generally, I think the older you get, the more risk-averse you get, so the more you want to avoid that sort of risk where you might lose your breeches at a drop of the hat.
Kevin: Just on those suburbs, those low-risk ones, those traditional suburbs, they do perform, as you said, year after year. They seem to go on forever. Are they typically in a city, as you said at the start there?
Josh: Look, I would say the inner ring of the city. I don’t like to say inner city because that denotes maybe a city’s [CDD 02:04], and that can be a different marketing itself where you’ve got a lot of high-risers and supplies sometimes greatly outstrip demand. Definitely around those inner ring suburbs and those middle ring suburbs, where we’re finding the demographics do like to be closer to transport, closer to café cultures, closer to restaurants. That way, the population does focus on staying more central to those areas. Demand tends to remain quite strong.
Kevin: What about those medium-risk … The emerging suburbs? I’m not talking about the hot spots here, but the ones that look like they’re going to be emerging, Josh? What about those?
Josh: Yeah, often those suburbs, I consider medium-risk. They’re up and coming. They might be suburbs within those inner or middle rings, and we probably all know them. We’ve been out various cities that haven’t quite, I guess, come out of the doldrums. It could have a low socio-economic attraction to it. It could be a little bit too industrial, for various reasons. It might just not have gentrified in some cases.
We do see some of those suburbs coming through where, suddenly, you’ve got a funky café open up, suddenly, prices move a little bit. I don’t like to say the word junkies, but sometimes those low socio-economic people move out of the area. Suddenly, it becomes trendy and it becomes a little bit edgy.
The younger crowd tends to move in. That younger crowd brings their own income and employment with it and their own demand, because once they move in to the area, they do like to stay around where they live and they like the action and they like the activity. That then attracts commercial enterprises – more cafés, more pubs, more gentrified sort of establishments.
Kevin: Is it too general to say that quite often those are also driven by affordability, Josh?
Josh: Absolutely, those well-priced suburbs within grey areas. People will sacrifice, I guess, the closer proximity living area in order to be close to work and being able to live and walk to work, for example. They can still enjoy the proximity of the city or the cafés in culture, but they might not live in the most ideal part of that area.
Kevin: Let’s move to the next level which is the highly-speculative suburbs. I guess these are the ones that are [tagged 04:34] as the hot spots, Josh?
Josh: Yeah. Generally, we do see a lot of hot spot trends in the media that, I think, it grabs the attention of most property investors with dollar signs in their eyes, “Can I make a quick buck here?”
Generally, a lot of those areas aren’t those traditional, best-performing suburbs over time. They tend to be those ones that we’ve seen maybe in mining towns or areas that we might not expect. Some of these areas may do very well over time, but, often, what we’re looking at is where … We’re looking at the expectation of the performance over time. It may not have happened yet, and that’s really where the gamble and the risk comes in.
That’s why we consider it a little bit of a high-risk because we’re hoping for that government contract to get … I guess, to be executed, or we’re hoping for the next big industry to move in to a town and take over and, suddenly, there’s great demand there, or we’re hoping for that infrastructure or light rail to be put in by the next government, only to find that maybe the government that started in next actually scraps those plans. Then those investors are left high and dry. That’s why we consider it a little bit more speculative, a little bit more high-risk.
Kevin: My experience, too, in talking to a number of people like yourself is that those areas, generally, are centered around one type of industry, whether it’d be mining or maybe a prison or something like that. Take that out of that community and, all of a sudden, those prices drop. You only have to look at what happened recently with the mining towns, Josh.
Josh: Very correct. What we find is that a lot of people’s eggs are literally in one basket. If that basket has the bottom fall out of it, suddenly they are left high and dry. Unfortunately, it is hard to get back when property purchases are quite a high price for most people to get into.
Kevin: Indeed it is. Josh, I want to thank you. We are out of time. It’s always great talking to you. All the best. I’ve been talking to Sydney’s Best Buyers Agent, Josh Masters. Through his website, contact him, joshmasters.com.au. Josh, thanks for your time.
Josh: My pleasure, Kevin. Thank you for having me.
Damian Collins
Kevin Turner: There’s been a lot said, and a lot written about the plight of first-home buyers. How they’re finding it, they’re struggling to get into the market. There are some first-home buyers, who are saying, “Well no, we’re not going to accept that.” They’re turning conventional thinking on their head. With more on this, Damian Collins joins us from Momentum Wealth. Damian, what are you seeing?
Damian Collins: Kevin, as you mentioned, a lot of first-home buyers do perceive that it’s hard to actually get into the market. They’re looking at a couple of alternative ways to get their on the door in the property ladder.
Certainly one of those is to be an investor first, and a home buyer later. They’re choosing to buy a property that might be in a good area for capital growth, may not necessarily be in the location they want to live. Obviously with the tax benefits and so forth, the cost out of pocket is not too much each week.
Then they look at renting in the area they want to live in. Maybe whether it’s out of their price range that they can afford, but it still gives them the lifestyle that they want. They’ve got the best of both worlds. They’ve got an investment property growing for them, foot on the property ladder. They still get to live their lifestyle that they want in the location they choose.
Kevin Turner: I suppose the very important consideration for them too is to think of it as an investment property. Not something that they want to live in long term or something they’d live in themselves, Damian?
Damian Collins: Definitely, yes. If it’s a property that’s going to be for just investment, then they really do need to think about it in those terms. Going back to all the investment fundamentals, supply, demand. Is the demographic in the area? Is it going to perform in terms of capital growth? Because that capital growth is what they’re looking for, is what’s going to get them eventually into their own home.
If they buy a property in a bad area, it doesn’t grow in value? That defeats the purpose. They’ve really got to focus on choosing those areas that are going to out-perform the market. Choosing the tops of properties.
They might want, for example, from a lifestyle point of view, live in a nice shiny apartment in the inner city location. Or even in the CBDs. They might be great for lifestyle, but not necessarily for investment. They might need to look at something that’s going to meet the investment criteria.
Give them that capital growth, so that they can in some time period further on, they can use that equity to go and buy their own home they actually want to live in.
Kevin Turner: There’s always the temptation to move further out of the city, where properties are a lot cheaper. Look at some of those house-land packages. What would be your advice about that, Damian?
Damian Collins: Kevin, I do see a lot of first-home buyers that go out into those areas. If you look at Sidney-Melbourne-Perth-Brisbane, a lot of those areas, we’re talking about 40-onwards, 40 kilometers and outwards out of the city. My advice generally is look from an investment point of view. Generally tend to be ones I wouldn’t recommend. They’re often a new estate, where there’s a lot of supply coming onto the market.
Historically, over time they do tend to under-perform until the seller becomes quite established and so forth. I generally wouldn’t recommend that. Again, that gives you the lifestyle, and if you really want to live in that area, maybe better off to buy an investment property somewhere else and go and rent in that area. Then I think one between you get better capital growth, and it will help you move up the next rung on the property ladder much more quickly.
Kevin Turner: Just briefly, to close off Damian, could you just describe in your own terms, what investment grade properties are?
Damian Collins: Kevin, investment grade properties are really those that make the fundamental demand, supply and equation. We’re looking at properties that have all the characteristics of strong demand. Got the right demographics. Close to infrastructure, close to transport, there’s a whole series of criteria that we use in assessing that.
More importantly on the other side is the limited supply. If it’s got all the characteristics of great demand, but there is a lot of prospective supply? We don’t tend to buy in those areas, because it doesn’t make our investment great, tops of properties.
There’s a lot of research to do it. Investors really need to be thinking about properties in demand and supply equation. Too many people focus on the demand. They say oh great, people moving here for the demand. They forget to look at the supply that all the developers are bringing in streams. Buying property, get those out-performers, we’ve got to look at both.
Kevin Turner: Thanks for setting the record straight, Damian. Always good talking to you too. Damian Collins here from momentumwealth.com.au. Damian, thanks for our time.
Damian Collins: Pleasure, Kevin. Cheers.
Craig Whaley
Kevin Turner: Property investing can be a bit of a mine field if you’ve got no experience, and that’s why I think it’s always best to talk to someone who’s got the experience, or talks to a lot of property investors. I am talking about Craig Whaley, who is from NPA Property Group. He’s been in the real estate investment game for about 23 years and specializes in helping people make sure they don’t make those mistakes. I read a blog article written recently by Craig where he details the 2 biggest mistakes he sees property investors making. He’s joining us, hello Craig, thanks for your time.
Craig Whaley: Thanks Kevin, pleasure.
Kevin Turner: Craig, what are those 2 big mistakes, and tell us how we can avoid them.
Craig Whaley: That’s a fantastic point to talk about, because I guess it’s one of those things that – there’s an odd saying in real estate circles, is safe inspection mortar, and unfortunately it’s not that easy if people go in unaware. Just in reference to your question, the first mistake relates specifically to timing of property cycles, and understanding property cycle dynamics. If you look at a generalistic perspective on cycles, you’ll conclude that history has taught us that given a 10 year period, generally speaking 7 to 8 years out of those 10 years is really unproductive in terms of growth.
If we think about that, we think about property markets are generally doubled every 7 to 10 years. Yet, 7 to 8 years, traditionally, is ineffective in terms of the growth that’s being achieved. What it means, coming to conclusion there, is that really, between 2 to 3 years out of every 10, most of the growth will occur in a particular property market. Now, if you analyze that, and most people aren’t aware of that when they buy, they can be left in a position where they’re sitting effectively on a property that does nothing for 7 or 8 years. They give up, they for whatever reason think, “This isn’t working, I should have bought shares, I should have kept the money under my pillow, I should have bought a McDonald’s franchise,” whatever they conclude, and they sell at the wrong time, they’ve just given away their future growth to someone else, and it’s quite heartbreaking when we see that occurring around Australia.
Kevin Turner: From that point of view, do you think it’s best for people to look at property investing over the long-term, is that what you’re saying? You should hold in for the long-term?
Craig Whaley: There’s an old saying, another saying, I love these [inaudible 02:25], that “It’s not timing of the market, it’s time in the market.”
Kevin Turner: Yes.
Craig Whaley: That one does have an element of truth to it, absolutely, history teaches us that. It also really concludes that we’re only looking at one component, and let me really crystallize that point. If we went on that logic that it’s time in the market, and we bought at the end of a growth spurt, and we’re getting back to my previous point that property markets are pretty stagnant for 7 to 8 years, I’d really ask the question, “Why would anyone buy a property where potentially for the next 7 to 8 years they’re going to have no growth?” As much as I like that saying “time in the market,” I believe you should have both. You should have time in the market, but you’ve really got to get that timing right as well.
I guess if you reference a particular point, you might look at the Perth market between 2003 and 2007, it doubled in value. Absolutely fantastic. If someone had bought at the beginning of 2008, in many suburbs in Perth they might have found a negative 85,000 dollar downturn in median house price in Perth suburbs. For buying at that particular point, even though time in the market as a long-term they’ll get their money back, they’ve got a negative 85,000 dollar head start, plus, potentially 7 or 8 years stagnation before their market or that property moves up again in value. And that’s pretty considerable in terms of the negative impact, but also creates opportunity cost for them as well.
Kevin Turner: What about how do you get that timing right, Craig?
Craig Whaley: That’s a really good question, and that’s the key point. As much as it’s not an absolute science and it’s not an exact science, there is a massive, massive [inaudible 04:09]. If you think about it, what do [inaudible 04:12] investors do when they get up in the morning and have their Corn Flakes? They look at charts, they look at graphs, they look at data. Why do they do that? Because it gives them information necessary in order to make potential informed decisions. Now as property investors, we’re not looking potentially to [inaudible 04:27], and I say that tongue in cheek, because obviously people have lied [inaudible 04:32]. We’re looking at a large amount of money itself. Yet, when we get up and have our Corn Flakes, do we look at the graphs? Do we look at the charts? Do we look at the data? Because there on a piece of paper, or a computer screen in front of us, can be the distinctive line showing the growth in that particular area at a particular time. It’s not [inaudible 04:52]. You can see when the growth occurred, you can see the logic before you save – [inaudible 05:01] can answer your question, as much as there’s no [inaudible 05:06] looking at history, determining how often market move, looking for expert opinion, looking at the [inaudible 05:17] how to base your decision.
Kevin Turner: It comes down once again doesn’t it, to making sure you do your homework, and I guess the other thing too, Craig is that each market is unique. Each market is different, so therefore you need to specialize in the market or market segment to make that homework really come to play for you.
Craig Whaley: That’s a fantastic point in ways, because if you think about it and you sort of start off from that point, you could say generalistic perspective, which we have an every 10 years approach to potentially 60 to 70 percent in growth in the market, so [inaudible 05:53] but, that is pretty generalistic when you look at one market. What if you have that market [inaudible 06:01] there’s no such thing as the same property market. It doesn’t exist, because as you know yourself, and if you know the selling property market is made up of different markets.
Kevin Turner: Yes.
Craig Whaley: If you look at that core aspect, and then you save yourself for, “Wait a minute, I see a theme” well the after market in Australia or other markets in the downtown, Sydney moves at a different pace, or at a different time to Brisbane, and at a different time than Perth, and when you [inaudible 06:33] look for the change, you look for neutral effects, you look for [inaudible 06:38] so yeah, to answer your question it’s interesting. It allows you to potentially get exposure in different markets at the same time and not just be [inaudible 06:49]. Your growth, and your net worth and equity can be larger at a given point in time, due to having that exposure to different markets.
Kevin Turner: Good advice, and I’ve been talking here to Craig Whaley from NPA Group, the property group. Craig, thank you very much for your time.
Craig Whaley: Thanks Kevin, thanks for having me.