There is a new website that has been developed to educate real estate agents about how to work with property investors. So what exactly are they telling agents and how do you find these newly enlightened agents? We talk to the person behind the site.
The reserve price at a property auction is one of the most mis-understood areas according to auctioneer of the year Will Hampson. He tells us what it really means and he talks a little about how agents create competition and its competition that makes a great auction.
It’s a common question – which makes a better investment: a house with land or an apartment. Some demographers suggest we are so much in love with the idea of having big spaces to raise a family that it’s impossible for us to change – but it appears we are changing as Michael Yardney points out.
Rob Balanda answers a question from Marcus in Deneliquin who says…“I have heard you talk about joint ventures but if I have the money, and don’t need any “money partners”, why would I take the risk of doing a Joint Venture with others”?
Today Jan Somers tells the amazing story of a letter she found that was written about 50 to 60 years ago that dispels the myth that Australian and New Zealand property is not affordable.
Margaret Lomas from Destiny Financial Solutions takes us to task over whether cash flow should be called a strategy. But why do so many people see it as a strategy? Margaret believes it has to do with security.
Transcripts
Rachel Barnes
Kevin: I’m excited to tell you about a brand new website that’s been developed to educate real estate agents about how to work better with property investors. The website is called InvestorFriendlyAgents.com.au.
It’s the brainchild of someone we’ve spoken to on a number of occasions, Rachel Barnes, who is a property investor, entrepreneur, author, and speaker. Based on the experience that Rachel has gained over the last 14 years in being in the real estate arena, she has created a unique training program to develop the skills of real estate agents to expand their knowledge, their network of property investors, and ultimately, or course, their income.
Why would an investor want to train an agent? Good question. Hi, Rachel.
Rachel: Hi, Kevin. How are you?
Kevin: Good. Why are you doing this?
Rachel: That is a really good question, isn’t it? I ask myself that, but I think the key thing is the frustration. I’ve been talking to investors for so many years now. I talk to them about building a team, and one of the key people on the team is the real estate agent. As soon as I say that, you get this glazed look come over and people say, “Oh, no. You just can’t trust agents. They don’t tell you the truth. They don’t treat you with respect.” All those types of things.
What I see is money being left on the table by both sides: the investor doesn’t get the property they want, and the agent doesn’t get to sell or buy the property. I just saw such a need to put the two together and bridge the gap.
Kevin: How does an investor find an agent who can talk their language?
Rachel: Through our site: InvestorFriendlyAgents.com.au. There are two things. One is find an agent. You can put some details in there, with the postcode, so that I can get back to you and tell you who we have who’s accredited in that area.
But also, if there’s an agent that you already like, somebody who has high integrity but just needs that extra knowledge and information about investing, and I can help them to help you, by all means, nominate them to me, as well, on the same website.
Kevin: What will you be telling agents in the training that you’re doing, just so that we as investors know what sort of questions we can ask agents to find out if they are, in fact, investor-friendly?
Rachel: They’ll certainly be accredited once they’ve gone through the program, so they’ll have a certificate for that. But I’m going to be telling them the truth. I’m going to teach them why investors are important for the bottom line, how to understand the needs of investors, and how to add value and build relationships with investors. I think that’s so important for them – and for us.
Kevin: Once again, Rachel, how do we find these agents? Give us that website again, and just tell us a little bit about how it works.
Rachel: We do workshops for agents. It’s a half-day workshop, and we teach them so much information to help them and help you.
Just go to the website: www.InvestorFriendlyAgents.com.au. You’ll find an area where you can ask to see where agents are in your local area, and also there’s an option for you to nominate an agent on that same website. And there are also events coming up for training.
Kevin: It might be a good idea for an investor to find out when those seminars are on in their local area and even go along to them, because the agents who turn up to that would be the ones they would want to work with, Rachel?
Rachel: Absolutely, and we’re going to have some fun with these workshops. We actually have the “Great Agent Debate,” So I do need some investors to come along and help out with that. It will be the best.
Kevin: Okay. Well, go to the website: InvestorFriendlyAgents.com.au.
The lady behind it, Rachel Barnes, has been my guest. Rachel, thank you so much for your time. All the best with the website and your project, as well.
Rachel: Thanks so much, Kevin.
Will Hampson
Kevin: The reserve price at a property auction is one of the most misunderstood areas, according to Auctioneer of the Year, Will Hampson. Will is from My Auctioneer, and he and his team conduct thousands of auctions each year, so they come up against this quite often.
Will, just explain to use what a reserve price means to an auctioneer.
Will: Kevin, if I look at the definition of reserve, it’s to retain or secure the price, to keep for oneself, so it’s in confidence and private between the auctioneer and the owner. In relation to finance, it’s assets that are readily convertible to cash, so if it’s met or exceeded, obviously, it’s guaranteed money in the bank, and we talk to sellers around that.
Not to be confused with reserve, which can be confused. Some of the owners and vendors out there do get confused around the reserve price, but the reserve price is the price at which the vendors are prepared to sell the property. It’s usually the vendor’s base price, however some vendors will set the reserve price high.
Kevin: There’s another way to describe it, too, and that is it’s simply a price under which the auctioneer can’t sell without the express approval of the owner. In other words, it’s a bit of a safety barrier for the seller?
Will: It is. They’re protected by their reserve price. Often if the reserve price has been set high, and it needs to be adjusted, that can be done. But also what can happen from a vendor’s perspective, or for the people who are out there selling their property by way of auction, if they do set their reserve price too high, it can slow the momentum of the auction if the agent and auctioneer are having to go backwards and forwards and getting adjustments on reserve. It’s much better for a seller to set a realistic reserve, based on the market feedback.
The reserve price can be given to the agent, and it must be sighted by the auctioneer prior to the commencement of the auction. Owners do reserve the right to amend the reserve price in writing. If the sale is close to that reserve price, they can adjust it, but that always should be done in writing.
Kevin: The reserve is one thing, but an auction is nothing without competitive bidding. How do agents compete or get that competition going?
Will: I think if they have got a good realistic reserve price, then obviously, that gives the enthusiasm to the agents working for the vendor clients, and it gives the vendor the best opportunity to sell it during the auction. We know as auctioneers that if the agent has done a great job in getting all buyers at all levels there, then that reserve price will often be met or exceeded – and to have those buyers in competition is the best thing for an auction.
Kevin: Will, just in closing, what’s best? Is it in rooms or on-site?
Will: I’m a big fan of on-site. We do a lot of on-site auctions across Sydney and greater New South Wales. For the family home, for residential real estate, it is an emotive purchase, and quite often these days, we’re having a lot of buyers come through the property the day of the auction, particularly a number of overseas buyers who will come through on the day of the auction, register, and bid, having seen the property for the first time the day of the auction.
But in-room events are a great way, if you do have a property that’s on a main road, in a unit block, if there are restrictions around parking, inner city properties, commercial properties. The in-room serves a very good purpose for certain properties and situations where it may be much more beneficial to have it in a nice in-room venue.
Also, it allows multiple properties to be put up to auction. Potentially, if they are of a similar price bracket, buyers and investors could look at multiple properties that are going to auction in that room.
Kevin: Will Hampson, Auctioneer of the Year. Will is from MyAuctioneer.com.au
Will, thanks very much for your time. We’ll talk soon.
Will: Thanks very much, Kevin.
Michael Yardney
Kevin: For generations, backyards, barbeques, and big houses have been the norm for Australian homeowners, but what of the future generations? I heard an absolutely ridiculous statement the other day where someone said that as Australians, we no longer have a love affair with apartments or units. I think it’s quite the opposite.
I don’t know how you feel about this. Michael Yardney joins me. What do you think, Michael?
Michael: Hi Kevin. There’s always going to be people who want to live in houses with front and back yards, but more and more people are choosing to swap their back yards for balconies. So I agree with you: that commentary you said a moment ago probably isn’t right.
Kevin: Is it affordability, Michael?
Michael: It’s a combination of affordability and also lifestyle. In Australia, over the next 15 years, it’s proposed that we’re going to have another 2.3 million households. Where are they all going to fit?
I think nowadays, we’re trading back yards for balconies – as I said – because we want to be close to where the action is, close to where amenities are. And you’re right: we can’t all afford to have the big yards for that sort of location.
Kevin: We used to see those apartment blocks and townhouse blocks as almost being like slums, but they’ve totally changed the landscape, haven’t they?
Michael: Very much so. When I grew up, they were called flats, not apartments, and that’s where the poor people, those who couldn’t afford to buy homes, would live. But nowadays, they’re the preferred style of accommodation, considering that more than 50% of our households are one- and two-people households, so they don’t need all those rooms and they don’t need all that space.
I think the other thing is how we live, also. Many of us now entertain outside rather than at home. I know you in Queensland have your beautiful Queenslander porches, but in the big capital cities, more of us are tending to live in a different sort of lifestyle where you go out and entertain at restaurants. We even have business meetings around the corner at restaurants and cafés.
Kevin: What are some of the lessons for investors in all this, Michael?
Michael: I guess the lesson is you’ve got to own a property that’s going to be in continuous strong demand in the future by a wide demographic: owner/occupiers, because they’re the ones that are going to push up the values, but tenants also, because they’re going to help you pay your mortgage.
While in the past, this clearly was houses, now significant changes in our population profile and our lifestyle priorities are feeding a strong growth in apartment living, and it’s changing the pattern of growth in properties, and in particular, in well-located areas, apartments do make good investments.
Kevin: Any particular apartment blocks that you would steer clear of?
Michael: I think there always should be an element of specialty, of scarcity, so I wouldn’t be buying properties as an investment in the big high-rise multistory ones where there’s always going to be challenges getting out of the car park in the morning when everyone wants to get out, or getting the lifts in the morning, the body corporate meetings with lots of other people.
I’d be looking for smaller, maybe more boutique blocks. I like the older ones, because they seem to have better floor plans, better layouts, and are more solid. They’re the sort of things I’d be looking at, even if they’re a bit old because you can do them up, you can renovate them, and you can add some value, Kevin.
Kevin: Very good words of advice. Michael Yardney from Metropole Property Strategies. Thanks, Michael.
Michael: My pleasure, Kevin.
Rob Balanda
Kevin: We’re going to answer a question on the show now. It comes in from Marcus from Deniliquin. Thank you, Marcus. We’re going to give you a 12-month subscription to Australian Property Investor magazine for your question.
Marcus says: “I’ve heard you talk about joint ventures in the past. I have sufficient money. Why would I consider doing a joint venture with someone else?”
Interesting article I read about this, written by Robert Balanda, who is a solicitor and the man we turn to in the show. He is one of our experts, and he is from MBA Lawyers on the sunny Gold Coast. He joins us. G’day, Rob.
Rob: G’day, Kevin.
Kevin: What’s the weather like on the Gold Coast right now?
Rob: Beautiful, mate. Crystal blue sky. Slight breeze. Just about to step out for my caffé latte.
Kevin: As you would do. Now, Rob, it’s a very good question from Marcus. I know you and I have talked about this on a number of occasions. What would you say to Marcus about the benefits of joint ventures?
Rob: It’s an excellent question. I would say a couple of things. Firstly, if you do a property development on your own, then you’re in a team of one. It’s a party for one, doing property development on your own. This limits what you can do, and often just leaves you with the most basic choices, such as a reno, a duplex, or maybe a small three- or four-lot land subdivision, which are all fine.
But when you join with other people with different skill sets and contributions, then the world can be your oyster. You might find yourself doing a small office block, a strip commercial development, a commercial project, or even a small shopping center. That experience, you can’t do that on your own – unless you’re Superman.
It vastly increases your experience and your depth of knowledge, and it’s a lot more fun. It’s a bit like the difference between driving a Volkswagen around the block or taking a new Maserati around for a spin.
Kevin: I suppose when you involve other people in your business or decision making like that, it actually takes what you do to a different level, Rob?
Rob: It does. The thing about being a property investor is if you do it on your own, you are your own journeyman. It can be very lonely, and there’s no one there to share the highs and lows and panorama of life as a property investor. It’s a bit like going on an overseas trip on your own versus doing it with your life partner. It makes that much difference.
Kevin: You might have the money and you’re sharing that knowledge, but I guess, too, you have to figure that you’re also sharing the risk, Rob?
Rob: Thank you, good point. That’s right. The risk is less. It softens the impact of it all. You don’t need as much courage, Kevin. You just need some confidence.
Kevin: What would be your advice about doing joint ventures within a family, risking those family relationships?
Rob: They’re a very precious relationship indeed, and you have to be very careful to preserve it. Extra care has to be taken, but it’s a great way to give your family – your kids, in particular – a leg up if you join with them and do a joint venture. If you’re worried about that, then you really shouldn’t be doing any property investment at all, even on your own. Leave the money in the bank.
Life does favor the brave, those people running with the ball. You can have disputes with your family, of course, but in my experience, love goes a long way to forgiving things. If you just can remember with your family, though, with someone who shares your DNA, they usually think this gives them the right to say whatever they like, and I mean whatever comes into their head.
Courtesy sometimes goes by the roadside in family joint ventures, but let me just reframe the experience for you. You will grow from these disagreements, both as an investor and as a person. There’s always benefits to flow from the downsides.
Kevin: I suppose the same would apply with friends, too?
Rob: Yes. Absolutely.
Kevin: Rob, it’s great talking to you. Marcus, once again, thanks for your question – very well answered there by Rob Balanda from MBA Lawyers. We’re going to catch up with you again in a few weeks. We have some more questions too, so we’ll get you back on the show in a few weeks’ time.
Rob: Good day to you, Kevin.
Jan Somers
Kevin: There’s certainly been a lot of talk recently about property affordability. How affordable is it? There have been people saying that it’s just not affordable, that Australia is probably one of the least affordable countries in the world.
Let’s go back in time a little bit. I had an interesting conversation with Jan Somers from Somersoft.com.au, who’s probably discussed this topic on a number of occasions, I would imagine?
Jan: Many, many times. I’ve been in property for 40 years now, so it’s cropped up every decade.
Kevin: The debate doesn’t seem to change, does it?
Jan: It doesn’t.
Kevin: Cast a bit of reality on this for us. I know that you’ve come across a letter recently. Would you be able to tell us about that?
Jan: Yes. I was a letter that I put a copy of in one of my earlier books, Building Wealth Story by Story. It was a letter written by a friend of a very old aunt, about her daughter who had been complaining about how property prices were very expensive and they couldn’t afford one. This person, who was the friend of the aunt, related the story. I won’t bore everyone to tears; I’ll just read one paragraph:
“When I married in 1959, my husband earned $1900 a year as a bus driver, and the cheapest brick house we could find was $7600 on a new estate. Finance was not a problem, but we found it hard to save the $1000 we needed for a deposit. This was, after all, more than six months’ wages.”
In that book, I go on to explain how every decade after that – whether it be 1969, 1979, in the ’80s and ’90s, and even today – it’s just as hard now as it was then. In fact, it’s actually almost easier now for young people to buy a property than it was back in the early ’50s, because banks accept a lesser deposit – back then you needed at least 20 to 25% – and as a percentage of your wage, compared to the property value, if you’re willing to look for your low-set brick on the outer suburbs instead of inner-city Melbourne, Sydney, or Brisbane, then it’s really no harder than it was 40 years ago. If anything, it’s easier.
Kevin: I think you point out to me in an e-mail, too, that it’s more about people’s expectations nowadays?
Jan: It is. There are too many young couples who have grown up with the idea that they need a four-bedroom brick house, with a double garage, ensuite, and all the latest electrical cons to go with it. That can’t be. Of course, it’s impossible. Of course, that’s not affordable. I think people confuse the words “being not affordable” with what they actually need and what they actually want.
Kevin: Just looking at the figures that you’ve given to me, as well – and we’re not going to go into any depth in these – it appears that the median price does actually escalate in value. It almost doubles every 10 to 15 years.
Jan: The only thing that drives those prices up is the supply and demand factor. Supply and demand is also a basic of people’s wages, so prices are not going to go to a million dollars unless people’s wages are commensurate with that amount.
So when they reach a million dollars – and I say “when” – then it’s likely that wages will be commensurate and people will still be able to afford them. But you always have to look at that lower end when you’re first getting in.
Kevin: Jan, always a pleasure talking to you. Thanks for your time.
Jan: Thanks, Kevin. No problem.
Margaret Lomas
Kevin: I remember talking to Margaret Lomas, from Destiny Financial Solutions, about this time last year, and I said to Margaret, “How is cash flow? How do you see cash flow as a strategy?” You rightly pointed this out to me…
Hi, Margaret. How are you going?
Margaret: I’m going really well.
Kevin: …Cash flow is not a strategy; it’s more an outcome?
Margaret: Exactly. I know when we did talk about this last year, you asked me whether or not it was possible for people to use positive cash flow as strategy for buying property. I said to you then that the thing about positive cash flow is that it isn’t a strategy; it is simply a tax outcome. Because all property is different, then it’s a tax outcome that will also be different for each individual investor.
Let me give you an example. Let’s say you and I were going to buy a property and we found a property next door to each other. We were going to buy them to the same price, they would rent for the same amount, and they’re fairly similar properties. But Kevin, you’re wealthy – we all know how much money you earn! – so you’re in that top tax bracket, and I’m a poor struggling writer, so I don’t pay very much tax at all. I’m right in that bottom bracket.
Now, with the two properties, you also happen to get one that’s got an upgraded kitchen and has a brand new bathroom, so you’ve got a bunch of on-paper deductions that I can’t get out of my property, because I don’t have those kinds of deductions available. The bottom lines for both of us will be very different.
Even though we’re getting the same purchase price and the same rent return, you may very well get a positive cash flow, because you’re going to get back more of your tax dollars – because you’re paying more tax in the first place – plus you have all that on-paper, which you don’t pay anything out for but you get so many tax dollars back for.
Then, on the other hand, I haven’t paid much tax, so there’s not much to get back. I have nothing on-paper, so my property is likely to be negative cash flow, because I don’t have those tax dollars to plug up the gap between income and outgoings.
Kevin: It’s a very good example, Margaret. Let me ask you this question: people who look for positive cash flow properties, would you say they’re more risk adverse? They just don’t want to take that risk?
Margaret: Maybe. Let’s just talk about how people go through that process, because people call me all the time and say, “I want to buy a positive cash flow, and I only want to buy a positive cash flow.” What that means is that they’re seeking a property that’s going to be able to give them enough money so that they’re not really dipping into their own pocket. That’s really what their strategy is, and that’s what they’re aiming to achieve.
Now, we need to understand, as I just said, all properties are different. There is a basis that you can start on though. Some properties, no matter how much tax you get back, will probably still be negative if they have really low yield. If we’re in a really high interest rate environment, then that makes it really hard to get positive cash flow, too, because the more money you pay in interest then the less money you’re going to have left over to meet all of your other costs.
If we’re in a low enough interest rate environment, and if we also can find areas where the rent returns aren’t too bad – say 5 to 6% at a minimum – and we could also find properties that have a decent amount of on-paper depreciation – so those properties are a little bit newer – then you have a better chance of getting a positive cash flow.
The other thing that people have to understand is that, first of all, it’s unusual and unlikely for you to find a positive cash flow property that’s positive cash flow from day one. When you first buy a property, remember that at that point in time, your expenses are going to be as high as they’re ever going to be, and the rent is going to be as low as it’s ever going to be.
Over time rent goes up and your expenses go down because you start to repay debt, so a property that’s negative cash flow can become a positive cash flow within a couple of years of buying it.
Then investors should probably seek out a property that’s likely to become positive cash flow as soon as possible, because it’s already got good rental yields. But the trap that investors fall into is in looking for this positive cash flow, they often buy in areas that don’t have anything else going for it.
The important thing to understand about cash flow is that cash flow might keep you in the market, because it means you’re not financially burdened to buy a property, but unless there are other things about that area – such as the growth drivers that I always talk about – then if the property never grows, you’re not going to achieve anything, because it’s the growth in the asset that gets you out of the market when you retire. You have to build up a net worth in order to be able to afford to leave the paid workforce.
Kevin: You talked about growth drivers there. You and I have chatted on previous occasions, and if you want to go back and search through some of the interviews I’ve done with Margaret, we actually touch on some of those key drivers. We might update that in the next couple of months, if you’ve got time to spare, Margaret?
Margaret: Yes, let’s do that. I’d really like people to have a better understanding of growth drivers. There’s so much information out there at the moment, yet still we have too many of the property experts hawking the same message. They talk about things that really aren’t relevant in terms of whether or not a property is going to perform well for you.
People still buy property emotively, as well, so they still want to buy property according to one they can get for a good price or one that they think they can get a rent return for – without having a look at what really drives growth and the importance of those growth drivers.
I think if, over the month, we can start to give everyone a really good picture of what is a growth driver and what it really means, then we’ll help to make them better investors.
Kevin: Watch out for that in the next few weeks: I’ll be talking to Margaret Lomas about exactly that. Margaret, thank you for your time. It’s always great talking to you.
Margaret: Thank you.