Training page templates: order threads
← Older revision
Revision as of 23:36, 29 April 2014
Line 905:
Line 905:
::: Even on a single-language wiki that does not want the TNT machinery, all that is needed is to import the, without the selected /language suffix (including the used templates). Most wkis still have the "Special:MyLanguage/" extension (even major wikipedias have it, because they have some "embassies" in a multilingual project portal to give support to some pther languages in discussion areas; even if the core content is monolingual) ; and in fact I can expect that trainings will be on wikis that support them; and most of them will support some multilingual mechanism, don't you think so ?
::: Even on a single-language wiki that does not want the TNT machinery, all that is needed is to import the, without the selected /language suffix (including the used templates). Most wkis still have the "Special:MyLanguage/" extension (even major wikipedias have it, because they have some "embassies" in a multilingual project portal to give support to some pther languages in discussion areas; even if the core content is monolingual) ; and in fact I can expect that trainings will be on wikis that support them; and most of them will support some multilingual mechanism, don't you think so ?
::: However due to the new fork you dee, I need to do something for the coexistence: translated pages will use translated templates (now in "Template:" after your move), and pages still not translated will use the non translated templates (in "Project:"). I'll try to adapt. But for maintenance, I still think that now the non-translated "Project:<templatename>"should just be a redirect to "Template:<templatename>/en", i.e. the translatable source version marked for translation and cleaned from markup for English (this is a possible coexistence). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 16:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
::: However due to the new fork you dee, I need to do something for the coexistence: translated pages will use translated templates (now in "Template:" after your move), and pages still not translated will use the non translated templates (in "Project:"). I'll try to adapt. But for maintenance, I still think that now the non-translated "Project:<templatename>"should just be a redirect to "Template:<templatename>/en", i.e. the translatable source version marked for translation and cleaned from markup for English (this is a possible coexistence). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 16:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
+
:: They are not meant to be used by learners ''on'' Meta, they just live on Meta to make the porting process easier. We're working on cleaning every thing up so that both the education trainings and the program evaluation trainings will work.
:: They are not meant to be used by learners ''on'' Meta, they just live on Meta to make the porting process easier. We're working on cleaning every thing up so that both the education trainings and the program evaluation trainings will work.
−
::: Meta offers the multilingual infrastructure for many translations, it is the appropriate place for preparing them, even if they are later exported to another monolingual wiki (but I wonder why; these should work directly on Meta; evn if you put them on Outreach or Commons or Strategy, they should not be restricted to English there and woumd also need the multilingual functionality. In fact the best palces for trainings is on a multilingual wiki; not in Wikipedia as they are not encyclopedic contents; but Meta is best suited for bringing translators and benefit from the translation memory, than small wikis like Outreach, Strategy, or temparory wikis like Wikimania 2014...
Co,,ons
may host them but most trainings are not in its content focus, and there are still few transators there becaus it has almost no text except categories and minimalist galeries, the rest being discussions never meant to be translated). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 16:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
+
::: Meta offers the multilingual infrastructure for many translations, it is the appropriate place for preparing them, even if they are later exported to another monolingual wiki (but I wonder why; these should work directly on Meta; evn if you put them on Outreach or Commons or Strategy, they should not be restricted to English there and woumd also need the multilingual functionality. In fact the best palces for trainings is on a multilingual wiki; not in Wikipedia as they are not encyclopedic contents; but Meta is best suited for bringing translators and benefit from the translation memory, than small wikis like Outreach, Strategy, or temparory wikis like Wikimania 2014...
Commons
may host them but most trainings are not in its content focus, and there are still few transators there becaus it has almost no text except categories and minimalist galeries, the rest being discussions never meant to be translated). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 16:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
:: (Neither was working previously, except for the few pages that had been updated with TNT.) --[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 15:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
:: (Neither was working previously, except for the few pages that had been updated with TNT.) --[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 15:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
::: I', sorry about that, but before this can be done extensively everywhere without repeating the work the basuc infrastructure needs to ba developed and tested on less pages. Due to the existing design within any separate pages/subpages, it was difficult to find a way to have so,ething that works in a ,ulitlingual environment. I have just fixed the last issues recently by completing one module (for students) and testing it for French and Arabic; other modules are now easier to adapt. And if you still need a monolingual version, it is still there with the "/lang" subpages (that contain NO translation markup at all), all within the same "/lang" category.
::: I', sorry about that, but before this can be done extensively everywhere without repeating the work the basuc infrastructure needs to ba developed and tested on less pages. Due to the existing design within any separate pages/subpages, it was difficult to find a way to have so,ething that works in a ,ulitlingual environment. I have just fixed the last issues recently by completing one module (for students) and testing it for French and Arabic; other modules are now easier to adapt. And if you still need a monolingual version, it is still there with the "/lang" subpages (that contain NO translation markup at all), all within the same "/lang" category.
::: Note that your fork has even broken fixes in base categories (in fact it has just reverted everything, as if nothing had been done at all for preparing translations). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 16:57, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
::: Note that your fork has even broken fixes in base categories (in fact it has just reverted everything, as if nothing had been done at all for preparing translations). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 16:57, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
−
::::Thanks trying to sort this out with us. One of the things we were trying to fix is that all the language subpages were not working with the forward/backward arrows from the /footer template. (It was a mistake for me not to fork these templates in the first place when [[User:EGalvez (WMF)]] starting building the program evaluation learning modules). I suggest that we try to get translation working properly on the first few pages of that, such as [[Programs:Evaluation portal/Learning modules/2Program Evaluation Basics Training Overview]].--[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 19:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
+
::::
Thanks trying to sort this out with us. One of the things we were trying to fix is that all the language subpages were not working with the forward/backward arrows from the /footer template. (It was a mistake for me not to fork these templates in the first place when [[User:EGalvez (WMF)]] starting building the program evaluation learning modules). I suggest that we try to get translation working properly on the first few pages of that, such as [[Programs:Evaluation portal/Learning modules/2Program Evaluation Basics Training Overview]].--[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 19:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
−
::::: In fact even before you starting forking, '''this was already working'''' with translations (I had fully successed the first translation module in Wikipedia tranining for students and was already working on fixing the index pages; this was also already working in the mini, example training..., it was ALSO workingin the first module of the Program Evaluation Basics; even if now it no longer works only because of the reverse without notice; and inconsistency that it creates with the old versions !!! before continuing the test one the first module of a couple other trainings to see that it was already working, then I wanted to finish the existing training when you reverted everything after hours spent searching for solutions and fixing various issues).
::::: In fact even before you starting forking, '''this was already working'''' with translations (I had fully successed the first translation module in Wikipedia tranining for students and was already working on fixing the index pages; this was also already working in the mini, example training..., it was ALSO workingin the first module of the Program Evaluation Basics; even if now it no longer works only because of the reverse without notice; and inconsistency that it creates with the old versions !!! before continuing the test one the first module of a couple other trainings to see that it was already working, then I wanted to finish the existing training when you reverted everything after hours spent searching for solutions and fixing various issues).
::::: So I have followed your suggestion so that header/footer templates can continue working as monolingual as long as they are not prepared for translation, but then transparently migrate to the translated version without duplucating the work. This should facilitate the migrations without needing any massive revert of everything.
::::: So I have followed your suggestion so that header/footer templates can continue working as monolingual as long as they are not prepared for translation, but then transparently migrate to the translated version without duplucating the work. This should facilitate the migrations without needing any massive revert of everything.
Line 918:
Line 919:
::::: Thanks for consideration of my difficult work, I know there may be issues, but it's best to find ways and discuss how to solve them, than just reverting everything without discussion.
::::: Thanks for consideration of my difficult work, I know there may be issues, but it's best to find ways and discuss how to solve them, than just reverting everything without discussion.
::::: But once the preparation is fully done and tested for one language, and layout tested with a RTL language, it is then very easy (and fast) to adapt this to all other languages (and many users an contribute to that, not just a few translate admins). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 19:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
::::: But once the preparation is fully done and tested for one language, and layout tested with a RTL language, it is then very easy (and fast) to adapt this to all other languages (and many users an contribute to that, not just a few translate admins). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 19:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
−
:::::: The reason I suggested that [[User:AKoval (WMF)|Anna]] delete the translation pages was because they currently are not working. See for example: [[Meta:Training/For_students/Welcome/en]].
:::::: The reason I suggested that [[User:AKoval (WMF)|Anna]] delete the translation pages was because they currently are not working. See for example: [[Meta:Training/For_students/Welcome/en]].
−
:::::: The navigation links in the footer do not work. (Compare the bottom of the page to [[Meta:Training/For_students/Welcome]], where the arrow links do work properly.)
+
:::::: The navigation links in the footer do not work. (Compare the bottom of the page to [[Meta:Training/For_students/Welcome]], where the arrow links do work properly.
) --[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC
)
+
::::::: I insist: especially on this page, which I tested extensively: it was really working completely; the navigation worked as intended to the next page, in the current language.... until you start juggling with templates and broke them more and more by reverting things massively. You're the one that caused the more sever havoc. [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 23:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
−
:
:::::: I
insist:
especially
on
this
page,
which
I
tested
extensively:
it
was
really
working
completely;
the
navigation
worked
as
intended
to
the
next
page,
in
the
current
language....
until
you
start
juggling
with
templates and
broke
them
more
and
more
by
reverting
things
massively
.
You
'
re
the
one
that
caused
the
more
sever
havoc
.
+
:::::: I
couldn't
find
a
way
to
make
these
links
work
with
translations
enabled,
which
is
why
I
thought
they
should
be deleted for
the
time
being while we work
out
the
issues
using
the
forked
versions
of
the
templates and
the
set
of
training
pages
at
[[Programs:Evaluation
portal/Learning
modules]]
.
I don
'
t understand
the
reason
for
trying to translate
the
education
trainings
on Meta anyway (as opposed to the evaluation ones, which are meant to be both used and translated on Meta)
.
--[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
+
:::::::: These Trainings will never be translated if they are hosted on a monolingual site (because of the lack of a translation memory). Very few wikis are suitable for this: Meta-Wiki (including for cooperation between Wikipedia projects, but also because these training also concern Commons and general Wikimedia policies), or Commons (only for media, trainings don't go much there and in fact translations is not a major focus there as the content if for media files, and possibly archiving pages rendered as PDF or screenshots or for audio records of these trainings). Chapter wikis are dispersed and not all ,anages by the Foundation and not all accessible; so multiple language translations with common solutions and common translation memory won't work for chapters. This is the same issue with the internal WMF site due to lack of local participation (as the access is simply closed). Only one other wiki is suitable: MediaWiki.org (but for trainings not related to Wikimedia processes and policies, or Wikimedia sites). The MW site anyway uses a very simplified design as it has to be deliverable with a stable and self-contained documentation not limiting the independant development of new wikis (that's why it should remain in its "Help:" namespace and nohere else). [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 23:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
−
::::::
I couldn't find a way to make these links work with translations enabled, which is why I thought they should be deleted for the time being while we work out the issues using the forked versions of the templates and the set of training pages at [[Programs:Evaluation portal/Learning modules]]. I don't understand the reason for trying to translate the education trainings on Meta anyway (as opposed to the evaluation ones, which are meant to be both used and translated on Meta).
If you can figure out a good way to get those footer links working again, then it will be okay for now, but I still think that we should try to minimize the complexity of all the pages linked from [[Meta:Training/Meta]], to make the templates easy to work with after porting, even for users who don't understand the details of the Translate extension. --[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
+
:::::: If you can figure out a good way to get those footer links working again, then it will be okay for now, but I still think that we should try to minimize the complexity of all the pages linked from [[Meta:Training/Meta]], to make the templates easy to work with after porting, even for users who don't understand the details of the Translate extension. --[[User:Sage Ross (WMF)|Sage Ross (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Sage Ross (WMF)|talk]]) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
−
:::::: It is not needed to underdtand the Translate extension to translate pages. But preparing pages for translation do require understanding it, this is not a surprise.
+
:
:::::: It is not needed to underdtand the Translate extension to translate pages. But preparing pages for translation do require understanding it, this is not a surprise.
−
:::::: What this means is that users may create content in whatever language they want, trnaslate admins will prepare them (doing at least one full translation to test the behavior, as I have always done: I don't just submit the English page without testing immediatetely and without seeing if it's effectively translatable), any translators will translate them later.
+
:
:::::: What this means is that users may create content in whatever language they want, trnaslate admins will prepare them (doing at least one full translation to test the behavior, as I have always done: I don't just submit the English page without testing immediatetely and without seeing if it's effectively translatable), any translators will translate them later.
−
::::: Once a page has been prepared, it is updatable by any user, but it won't break the transaltions (and not even the /en version which is stabilized), but all they have to do is to keep the TNT(N) templates used (whch are not so complicated, and in most cases if they want to add more training pages, they'll copy-paste an existing one to replace the text (they wil lalso see immediatzly what is translatable or what is need because the preparation is markup already there.
+
:
::::: Once a page has been prepared, it is updatable by any user, but it won't break the transaltions (and not even the /en version which is stabilized), but all they have to do is to keep the TNT(N) templates used (whch are not so complicated, and in most cases if they want to add more training pages, they'll copy-paste an existing one to replace the text (they wil lalso see immediatzly what is translatable or what is need because the preparation is markup already there.
−
::::: If the training must then be exported, all that is needed is to have a TNTN template somewhere. Even if there's no module loaded for it, it can just return its own parameter and it will work (other parameters are there to select specific languages, but this won't be needed on a monolingual site). But now that there are templates mixed by you between the "Template:" namespace and the "Project:" namespace things are even more complicated now than they were. [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 23:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
+
:
::::: If the training must then be exported, all that is needed is to have a TNTN template somewhere. Even if there's no module loaded for it, it can just return its own parameter and it will work (other parameters are there to select specific languages, but this won't be needed on a monolingual site). But now that there are templates mixed by you between the "Template:" namespace and the "Project:" namespace things are even more complicated now than they were. [[User:Verdy p|verdy_p]] ([[User talk:Verdy p#top|talk]]) 23:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)