Subjects: Resignation of Pope Benedict XVI; the Coalition's plan for better transparency and accountability of registered organisations; Michael Williamson; Craig Thomson; industrial relations; Rob Oakeshott; David Gillespie.
E&OE……………………….…………………………………………………………………
PAUL MURRAY:
I have to ask you first up, what is your reaction to the resignation of the Pope and a recognition of the historic nature of it; the first time in nearly 500 years?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, it’s a very onerous job, Paul. I mean, being the spiritual leader and chief administrator of more than one billion Catholics is an extraordinarily onerous job. It’s probably as tough as any job in the world and it’s not surprising that at the age of 85, the Pope would decide, after no doubt much contemplation, that he doesn’t have the necessary physical and mental stamina to continue.
PAUL MURRAY:
Have you ever had the opportunity to meet him or speak with him?
TONY ABBOTT:
No. I think I was one of a couple of hundred thousand people that went to Randwick Racecourse for the papal mass when the Pope was here for World Youth Day, so that’s about as close as I’ve ever been to him – probably about a kilometre away!
PAUL MURRAY:
Now, obviously, this is a very interesting time and also for me, he’s quite a well-known traditionalist inside the church. The decision to break with the established tradition of letting old age take you away has been an interesting one. Do you think that this is now going to be where the papacy is going to go in future years, where basically rather than, put crudely, dying in office, you will make a decision like this Pope has?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, as I said, he would have pondered this deeply before coming to this decision, just as I’m sure Pope John Paul pondered deeply this issue when he was in his declining years, and obviously came to a different decision. I suspect that part of this Pope’s decision is the fact that he was close to his predecessor and he did see the impact of a visibly declining Pope on the functioning of the Church. I suspect that would have been in his mind when he came to this decision, but I think we can be absolutely certain that he wouldn’t have made the decision lightly. You don’t get to be the spiritual leader of a billion people without being a person of enormous character and deep integrity and people of character and integrity that have these responsibilities don’t lightly give them up.
PAUL MURRAY:
Now, there’s about half a dozen things I want to bounce through here, so forgive me if we change subjects rapidly here, but Sarah Hanson-Young decided to tweet at about midnight last night, she wrote the following: ‘Maybe Tony Abbott could ask them to keep the Pope vacancy open for a few months just in case he loses in September. What’s worse?’ You know, cheap shot, bad joke, what do you think?
TONY ABBOTT:
Oh, look, I think it’s an attempt at humour but as is well known, many, many years ago I decided that I wouldn’t be in the running for that particular job!
PAUL MURRAY:
So you’re willing to definitively say you will not be running for Pope?
TONY ABBOTT:
Yes I am, Paul.
PAUL MURRAY:
Alright. Do you give the same advice to Kevin Rudd?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, Kevin’s certainly running for something at the moment. He’s running around and making himself very available to everyone but I think Kevin is in a similar position to me when it comes to that other job.
PAUL MURRAY:
Alright, let’s talk about why I wanted to talk to you this morning. I think you did the right thing yesterday by standing up in the Parliament and doing what the Government should have done months ago – which was, in response to the HSU and the mess that has been Craig Thomson, but even more importantly and pointedly, the former ALP president in Michael Williamson – you decided to stand up and say it is now time for higher fines, longer jail terms for people who misuse union members’ money. Put simply, if you are Prime Minister, will you change any series of laws to make sure that the same rules that govern a company or a small business will govern a union in Australia?
TONY ABBOTT:
Yes, Paul. We will change the law to ensure that dodgy union officials and dodgy company officials face the same kind of penalty regime. If you’ve done the crime, you should do the time and if it’s the same crime, you should do the same time, whether you’re a dodgy company official or a dodgy union official.
PAUL MURRAY:
The amount of money that has been rolling around in the HSU story is amazing. Craig Thomson alone – and yes, there are charges before the court there – is tens of thousands of dollars. In Michael Williamson it’s an even…
TONY ABBOTT:
It’s millions.
PAUL MURRAY:
…larger amount of money. They are extraordinary amounts of money. But as was pointed out by former Labor leader Mark Latham on my Sky News show last night, is that it is one thing to set up these sorts of penalties but it is also to compel the way that monies are spent inside the union. Do we need to make sure that it is defined inside the union how you’re able to spend the money? Because presumably if you just have an undefined entertainment budget you can spend an unlimited amount on whatever you want.
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, obviously there do need to be proper internal management procedures and that’s important and I think that members would expect that but one of the other policies that we’ve put forward and that we will implement should we be elected, Paul, is having a much better watchdog here. At the moment, Fair Work Australia is not only the watchdog, it’s also the conciliator and arbitrator, so it’s got two very distinct roles, and we think that those roles should be separated and there should be a special body, the Registered Organisations Commission, that looks after the policing of trade unions and other registered bodies such as employer organisations. That would mean, we believe, much better enforcement of the governance rules than we have at the present time.
PAUL MURRAY:
Also, essentially the only reason that the HSU case went anywhere near police and, by extension, the Craig Thomson went anywhere near police, was because we had the union whistleblower in Kathy Jackson and as was very well established that basically she had to go out exclusively on her own, she was effectively not endorsed by her union to do so. The culture of silence and self-policing is something that needs to be examined as well. I know it’s easy to call for things like Royal Commissions but if you become Prime Minister, will you be having a broader inquiry into the way in which union power self-polices and attacks whistleblowers?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, as I said, Paul, we’ve got some important policies in place: the policy for much tougher penalties for malefactors. We’ve got the policy for a better watchdog to ensure that ordinary governance rules are properly observed. We’re also going to restore fully the Australian Building and Construction Commission which will be a tough cop on the beat in the construction industry. So, these are all policies out there.
Now, in respect of the Australian Workers’ Union slush fund scandal we have said that there should be a judicial inquiry and if the Prime Minister wanted to clear the air on this she would have a judicial inquiry. If this Government doesn’t establish a judicial inquiry I have said that an incoming Coalition government would. It’s just going to look at the AWU. As for the HSU, well, there are these various prosecutions in train at the moment and I think that it would be important to see how they play out. There are the civil prosecutions that Fair Work Australia has launched against Michael Williamson and Craig Thomson. Now, there are these criminal prosecutions against Michael Williamson and Craig Thomson. Michael Williamson, let’s not forget, is the former national president of the Australian Labor Party. He was one of the faceless men who helped install Julia Gillard as Prime Minister…
PAUL MURRAY:
Exactly.
TONY ABBOTT:
…and that is why this Government is so compromised when it comes to policing these sorts of things.
PAUL MURRAY:
No, absolutely, I always think that is a point that is often forgotten. He’s made out to be some sort of mad uncle. Well, he was a person who was at the very heart of that political party, as you say, at the time when the Prime Minister, well, became the Prime Minister.
TONY ABBOTT:
Exactly right, and when Paul Howes gave his celebrated Lateline interview where he talked about the union movement deciding that Kevin Rudd had to go, Michael Williamson, the then president of the party, was one of the people he named.
PAUL MURRAY:
Yeah, exactly. Also worth noting here too, the Government decided to go and go hard on you and the Liberal Party on industrial relations. Now, in the same way that you have been able to build the narrative over the past few years that anything to do with the Government effectively is part of the evolving and endless story about its own chaos, they have been able to, since 2007, suggest that any changes, anywhere by the Liberal Party in industrial relations equals return to WorkChoices, equals makes it easier to sack people. On a couple of fronts I just wanted to ask you, what is your view regarding penalty rates in Australia? Do they need to change? Will they change under your Prime Ministership?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, the short answer is that we’re going to keep the Fair Work Act framework. Yes, there will be some modest cautious, careful, sensible changes to address the militancy problems, the flexibility problems, the productivity problems but workers’ pay and conditions are safe with us and I think, if I may say so Paul, that the “oh, this is a return to WorkChoices” mantra that we get from the Government is increasingly ineffective because what people are realising is that Labor has created its own monsters in workplace relations, particularly with this whole union corruption issue. I think the public are looking for someone to clean this up; they realise that the Government is so compromised because of its own involvement in much of this that they are never going to do it.
PAUL MURRAY:
Now, also, a couple of people had concerns yesterday and there seems to be some confusion and in my opinion some deliberate misinformation that might be out there, is that under the changes with carbon tax, the Federal Government changed the tax free threshold and moved it up to $16,000. Will you be moving that back down towards the $6,000 mark if elected towards the end of the year?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, two points, Paul. First, those tax changes were carbon tax compensation. That’s what they were. They were carbon tax compensation. They were designed to help people to meet the additional expenses, the much higher power bills for instance that they would face as a result of the carbon tax. So, they were not a free gift as it were from government. They were the Government putting money into one pocket because it was taking money out of the other pocket. Now, what we have said is that we will fund tax cuts without a carbon tax and we’re going to identify sensible savings in the run-up to the election that will enable us to keep some of the tax cuts. Now, we will make it absolutely crystal clear what the quantum of savings will be, what the quantum will be in the run up to the election.
PAUL MURRAY:
Right, two more and then I will let you go. Rob Oakeshott apparently said that he doesn’t know if he is going to be standing at the next election. He is in fact not saying that he will be there or won’t be there on September 14. Free piece of advice, should he or shouldn’t he stand?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, he has got a very strong opponent, Dr David Gillespie a gastroenterologist in Port Macquarie – terrific bloke. I have known him for most of my life. He would make an outstanding member for Lyne and he is going to be a very tough opponent for Rob Oakeshott this time. He was a tough opponent last time but obviously many people up there think that Rob has badly blotted his copy book by supporting and sustaining a seriously bad government. So, look, it’s his call what he does, but regardless of what he does, we have got a great Coalition candidate.
PAUL MURRAY:
Alright, reading between the lines, feel free to get out of the way, Mr Oakeshott.
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, look, as I said, if you want to change the Government you have got to vote for David Gillespie. He is the Coalition candidate in Lyne. If you vote for Rob Oakeshott you are effectively voting for Julia Gillard.
PAUL MURRAY:
And last one here, much has been made of the fact that you used to do these weekly appearances on the Today show and you have decided to pull out of those since the election date was named. It has been a little, I will be honest, a little bit hard getting you on the radio so far this year. Now, I know you are a busy man but the suggestion, the conversation point, the suggestion being made is that you are trying to limit the number of times you get in front of a microphone or a camera. Are you going small target?
TONY ABBOTT:
Well, the short answer is no to both questions, Paul. Look, I’m not always available at all times to everyone but I genuinely want to appear frequently on your programme because there are hundreds of thousands of people listening. Not all of them are rusted-on Coalition voters and the more I can explain myself and present myself to them the better and look, that’s genuinely true of media interviews for opposition leaders. I did more than twice as many media interviews in 2012 then the Prime Minister. I’ve done far more media interviews then the Prime Minister this year. I don’t think anyone would say I’m hiding myself from the public and as for the Today programme, well, I love the Today programme and I am looking forward to going on it frequently but in an election year it is not always easy to keep a commitment to be there every Friday morning at ten past six.
PAUL MURRAY:
Ok, that makes sense and we look forward to talking to you throughout this election year. Thanks for your time, Tony. We appreciate it.
TONY ABBOTT:
Thank you, Paul.
Location:
Federal