I am amazed that this number of people took the time to read that long winded post lol. You people really do care too much about politics!
A few thoughts on the responses and other posts:
What IS with the “surprise sex” editing? I was going to bring it up when I re-read the post but got distracted and forgot. I would appreciate it if a moderator would put the original word (surprise-sex) back in. I don't want my post to seem like it was making light of such a heinous subject (though I understand why it may have been a universal edit left in there for out normal GRRM posts). Over all, no biggie, but I would like it understood that I did not treat the subject in such an off-handed way in that post.
If anyone reads that post and agrees with the disparaging comments I made regarding Republicans, but thinks I am off base on similar comments made toward Democrats, then I think that person may have crossed over into treating politics like sport. Ummm, yeah, I do that and point to my “game film” analogy as evidence. But, what I am saying here is that we should not lose total objectivity in defense of our political affiliation.
Democrats do give special consideration to the minority groups who make up their base coalition (I use “minority” not only referring to ethnicity and race, but to special interest). That's what being in a coalition is about. It is a way to make sure that your small group's interests are represented. We think nothing of pointing that out when we talk of other governments who form opposition coalitions to counterbalance majority parties, what is wrong with admitting it within our own system?
You can't call the Republicans the party of old white men unless you acknowledge that the Democrats are the party of minorities and special interests. You can't say that Republicans give their constituencies special attention in return for their support and deny that Democrats give their coalition members special consideration in return for their support.
Yes, they are buying votes with their social programs and policies just like Republicans are buying the old, white guy vote by opposing those things and supporting policies like deportation and anti-abortion.
I have NO DOUBT that many in the rank and file have deeply held principles that support their party's positions in large part...but that is not how the game of politics is played by the people who control the parties. Those people in power, on both sides, buy votes. I am not sure how one could deny that for either side.
Louise: Yep, amazing lol. But, in reality, we probably agree on many things where cynicism is concerned lol. It is the nature of people on this site.
Doran: I hope the Democrats get the chance to test your theories completely. If they fail (my theory), I hope then we can test the Austrian theories fully afterward. Now, the problem will be when we declare success or failure. My fear is that even if the Democrats got their way, and failed miserably, there would still be a large contingency screaming that they need more time or that the Republicans somehow secretly sabotaged the effort.
I hear you say that no President is responsible for the economy...does that extend to Bush? I think that many on the left would disagree with you. At least, they would blame Bush but give Obama a pass lol. I am not disparaging everything you said, far from it. I too believe that much of the economy is beyond the control of the President, it's just that “the people” have not believed that since FDR.
I have said from the outset that what we needed was a debate, a fight, over real principles of the left and right. I am not sure we ever got that because I am not sure that either candidate could espouse their true beliefs. I wish Obama would turn loose, now that he has won and does not have to worry about re-election, and put forth his real feelings. I think that if the Republicans would promise to stand aside, he might.
In short, I say LET'S TEST IT! Give the Democrats their chance, they earned it. If it works then the issue is settled for our life times. If it does not, boot them and give the Republicans their chance without interference.
Will either side agree? Nah. Would be cool though.
Den Mother:
Let me clarify. I know I use blunt terms without regard to how shocking they might be and the risk in doing so is that the terms themselves will be misunderstood.
Abortion on demand is a harsh way to say it, but it is where we are. And it's not as bad as it sounds. BTW, I am not a rabid anti-abortionist and whether abortion is right or wrong is not the question here.
We cannot have a debate over any aspect of abortion in this country without hearing that any restriction is an attack on abortion itself and an erosion of female reproductive rights. There was an initiative on a ballot somewhere that took the “time limit” for abortion from (forgive me if I am slightly off) 27 weeks to 24 weeks. The reason being that fetuses could now survive outside the womb at the new number.
All the rhetoric came out. Both sides. It was an attack on Roe v. Wade. An attack on women. It was just another example of how much the abortionists love killing babies. People on both sides tried to kill flies with sledge hammers, as usual.
It is hard for most people to fathom late term abortions in any but the most dire circumstances. Certainly, most people would oppose late term abortions performed simply out of convenience. But no measure against those abortions out of convenience could pass without a war these days. (no, I am not saying that late term abortions out of convenience are common, ok?)
A politician could not even get away with saying that they personally believed abortion was wrong but would not take any steps, if elected, to overturn Roe v. Wade. They would still be characterized as a danger to women's rights. On the other hand, such a stance would cost them dearly among the evangelical right.
On the other side, there are idiots trying to parse the term “r a p e.” Seriously? I know their reasoning (at least I hope they do not really think that criminal act is anything other than forcible) is that they fear women will claim r a p e just to get by whatever restriction was being put forth, but it is just a stupid thing to say.
The sides get polarized. The left is afraid that any restriction on abortion is a foot in the door on the way to overturning Roe v. Wade. On the right, we only hear from the “no abortion under any circumstances” crowd.
So...when I say “abortion on demand”, I am talking about the stance that those on the left feel forced to take by opposing each and every limitation on abortion proposed EVEN if a proposal would be deemed “reasonable” by most people in the country (no, I am not sure what such a reasonable proposal might be and that is not germane to the discussion) . Add to that the Democrats declaring that the Republicans are waging a “war on women” in order to galvanize a portion of their base (women, young and single women in particular) against Republicans.
From a gamesmanship standpoint, it behooves the Democrats to paint Republicans as anti-woman and they do a good job of it. And this little minority of Republicans (for God's sakes, it IS a minority) give them all the ammunition they need with stupid remarks that are either woefully ignorant or easily taken out of context and turned into soundbites.
You asked about traditional values. Here is a small list that is very, very stereotypical...but not inaccurate on either side;
Traditional values espoused by Republicans (not what they do, what they say):
Hard work leads to success.
God
The Constitution
Any boy can be President
Personal freedom and responsibility
Small government
Low taxes
Rugged individualism
American exceptionalism
You know, all that stuff that we used to see in old movies from the 40's and 50's, The Beaver. John Wayne. Apple pie, baseball, and the shining city on the hill. America! Hell yeah!
Democrats, the left, want change. Obama promised to fundamentally change the US and the majority of Americans agreed:
You did not build that, rich people got that way on the backs of poor people.
God has no place in government even if you are dumb enough to believe in a magical man in the sky.
The Constitution is a living document. Use it to win law cases that help your agenda. Ignore it when it gets in the way. The damned thing is over 200 years old and outdated anyway.
Government can make your life better.
We need governmental regulations to protect us from corporate greed.
They are not taxes, they are investments and we need more investments in key sectors of our economy.
It takes a village to raise a child.
We have become arrogant. Our society is no better than any other. We have no right to judge other cultures because their values are simply different than ours.
The left, the liberals, the progressives, and the Democrats want change from traditional America. They don't hate America as a whole, they just have a better vision of what it should be.
Traditional America was center-right. Over the past few years, that has changed. We are now either center-left or center-and-headed-inexorably-left. I did not think we were yet to that point, but I...along with almost everyone right-of-center)...was WRONG.
Around the world, every time we have seen a society go left of center, it has continued that way. Even if we are close to 50/50 still, the movement is absolute. Even is leavin' as far as the movement to the left is concerned. We won't be communists tomorrow, but some further left dreams are MUCH closer now than they were in October.
We (the right) used to debate philosophical issues in hopes that we could retain the country's center-right position. That debate was lost and the people have decided to go left. Right or wrong is irrelevant, it just is. We can still have the philosophical debates and they are healthy, we just need to understand that the question is settled for the time being. Until we become either prosperous or hit a crisis, we are center-left.
Maybe that is what you were referring to when you talked about disagreeing with the general attitude of my post? I admit, I was not talking about right or wrong as much as I was talking about how to win future elections. The Republicans can be right all day long (they are not lol) but if they never win another election, being right won't matter. On the other side, they can make inroads into certain sectors of our society once they are in power (and only then). They can also make inroads as the out-of-power party MUCH like the Democrats did back in the 80's (that takes subtlety though...).
I do not think the Republicans need to listen to everybody or try to pander to everyone. They need to focus on Hispanics and women. They could take a big chunk of Hispanics if they did things right (who knew that the architect for that would have been W?!) and at least cut into the gender gap enough. To do either of those things, however, they are going to have to change some stances. And that change might just be letting some of the up-and-coming players step to the front. Let the next generation of Republicans control the direction of the party, not the Boners and Roves.
The only absolute right and wrong argument that I would make is that letting the Democrats have control of the economy during Obama's second term is absolutely the right thing to do. Sure, it is smarter than being obstructionist and getting blamed for a collapsing or stagnant economy over the next four years, but it is MORALLY the right thing to do.
Imagine the shock it would cause if the House leaders stepped up and said that, on the economy, they would abstain and let the Senate budgets pass. Point to the election as a mandate. In return, demand only that their immigration reform package be passed...the one that streamlines the path to citizenship. I think people would admire them for acknowledging defeat and clearing the way.
And just because I am bored waiting for the NFL games to start:
Being wrong SUCKS! I am not talking about the election, I am talking about believing that the country was still center-right and if we made a good enough argument, people would vote that way.
Splitter
Statistics: Posted by Splitter — Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:00 pm