Holly wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Clive Wismayer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Clive Wismayer wrote:Here is what actually happened:
Bamber fully loaded an already partially loaded rifle either before going home or right after breaking in. He pocketed the box of cartridges and went upstairs firing 11 rounds. Then he loaded four and executed Neville and then he filled the magazine and did the same to the twins and Sheila. Then he poured out the remaining shells onto the worktop to support the idea that Sheila got the idea for a bloodbath from seeing him do so. That's how we end up with 30 rounds. Simple. And no conspiracy because no one has ever advanced the point before not having the wits to think about it. It is a Columbo point and solves the case almost by itself.
You seem to be trying to look at things with a precision that I don't think exists. Real life, at least my life, is not as precise as you seem to want to make it.
In addition, you seem to be specifically trying to look at things in a guilty lens. In effect, you are falling into the common trap I often see with prosecutors. Everything can only have a guilty explanation. Even if Jeremy Bamber is guilty, not everything is evidence of guilt. Many things have no bearing one way or the other.
Could you put a little detail into that, DF? It sounds like vapid eyewash to me. We have the precision we need:
1 we know the ammo boxes each contain 50 rounds
2 we know Bamber was positive the magazine was empty
3 we know he claimed to have loaded 8-10 rounds from the box of ammo he took from the study (margin of error is therefore between 8 and 10 but the exact number is irrelevant)
4 we know that box was 'nearly full' (whatever the margin of error, whether 50 rounds or 45, the resulting problem gets bigger the fewer rounds there were)
5 we know he claimed to have detached the magazine and returned a round to the breech (a second reason why the rifle cannot have had more than 10 rounds at any point beore Bamber went home)
6 we know how many shots were fired - 25. If you want to hunt up more rounds, go for it - the problem only gets bigger.
With which of any of these points did you or anybody disagree yesterday? None. That's right. But today, that's a whole different story … LOL
I am getting a little confused here. . . . Are you arguing that the weapon on the table when Jeremy departed had rounds in the magazine or not?
Otherwise, I am not sure what issue there is with him having loaded the weapon before he used it for the day?
I can understand your confusion I was the same when I first heard about it. I think it's confusing because some think it means something and it really doesn't but I'll try and explain as best I can:
JB claims he took a "nearly full" case of bullets (full case being 50) and tipped them out on the kitchen worktop. He claims the mag was empty and he loaded 8 - 10 bullets. He then went outside and cocked the rifle with the intention of taking out a few bunnies. No shots were fired. He returned inside removing the bullet from the breach which he popped into the mag which he also removed from rifle. It seems he left the rifle and mag in an area just outside the kitchen and the bullets he tipped out on the kitchen worktop he left in-situ.
When soc officers examined the kitchen they found 30 bullets on the kitchen worktop from, it is assumed, the "nearly full" case JB emptied onto the top earlier. Even if we assume the case JB claims he emptied was full ie 50 and not "nearly full" and regardless of whether we include some or all of the bullets left in the mag it means there were too many bullets on the kitchen top since 25 shots were fired for the perp to have used the bullets from those JB claimed he left on the kitchen worktop. In reality it is all meaningless.
- Full case = 50. Shots fired murders/suicide = 25. Bullets on kitchen top = 30.
- If we assume JB's claim above are true we have no way of knowing about the accuracy ie exactly how many he loaded.
And we don't need to know.
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We have no way of knowing whether or not NB emptied the rifle if bullet left in breach and/or mag.
We 'know' because Jeremy said he removed the magazine and added the bullet from the breech to it.
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If SC was responsible we have no way of knowing whether or not she was even aware of the bullets on the kitchen worktop. She may have sought out the rifle from the office and loaded it there from ammo kept in the gun cupboard.
The whole point of Jeremy's tale is that he poured out the bullets right before Sheila's eyes. And Sheila used some of them, which is another way we know.
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NB, June or even SC may have returned the bullets JB left on the kitchen worktop to the bag of ammo kept in the gun cupboard.
Destroying Bamber's carefully contrived narrative and resulting in an interesting coincidence - the bullets were poured out onto the worktop, removed by J or N, and then amazingly poured back out in the exact same place by Sheila!
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If someone removed the bullets JB left, NB may have gone to use the rifle later in the evening and tipped bullets out in the same location JB left them.
Of course! The exact same place again! It must be the household tip for bullets. And Neville shooting rabbits in the dark (hint: no night sights and bunnies all tucked up in bed) .. er, no.
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SC may have tipped bullets out on the kitchen worktop and the fact JB claims he did earlier was just a coincidence and the 30 on the kitchen worktop found by soc officers were unrelated to those JB left there earlier. This sounds an unlikely coincidence unless SC had regularly observed NB and JB loading there and just copied.
The same 'unlikely' coincidence as in the previous two points and in contradiction to your idea that Sheila was unaware of the bullets Jeremy poured out right in front of her.
As you can see the permutations and possibilities are endless making it all utterly meaningless.
No, the possibilities number about 5 or 6 and they are all absurd.
But fine. Let's make it work. Neville is understandably not happy about Jeremy leaving the rifle out with bullets lying around. He does not simply tell Jeremy to tidy everything away, so let that pass, but scoops everything up and puts it all away. We shall assume he did not empty the magazine because no need. And that he put the casings back in the ammo box. A magazine with, let's say 10 rounds (but not more) and a box of ammo with 40. Um, that's still only 50, which is not enough.
So Sheila grabs rifle and goes crazy - shooting June 6 times and Neville 4. Then what? Back to the office to the same ammo box or a different one? It must be the one David Boutflour found about half full because otherwise the sums don't add up. Let her grab five shells from that one and execute Neville. Then she goes back but rather than fill up again, she brings the first ammo box to the kitchen (why?) and tips out the lot (why no tipping out in the office? why did Boutflour not observe the second box was open and away from the others or disturbed in some way?) and then loads 10 more (one in the breech coz she's a pro!) leaving the required 30 in exactly the same place Bamber did!
I don't buy it. Too contrived. The fact that some sequence of events is not actually impossible does not mean we suspend our reason when considering whether it is reasonable, likely or probable. You have not attained any of these standards.
Statistics: Posted by Clive Wismayer — Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:46 pm