wandringaesthetic:
ikkinthekitsune:
talysalankil:
ikkinthekitsune:
In light of the last episode of Brotherhood: FFXV, I can’t help but find the continued existence of fans wearing “Versus was better/less safe because it was bloodier” rose-tinted (or, I suppose, crimson-tinted) glasses kind of bizarre.
For one thing, the only thing shown for Versus that was even vaguely comparable to the violence in that Brotherhood episode was that short clip in 2010 with ridiculous fountain-of-blood effects when Noct was fighting a Behemoth… and that always sort of came across as Nomura attempting to “keep up with the Joneses” with respect to Tabata to me given that the clip appeared at the same event that revealed Type-0 as an uncharacteristically violent PSP game and vXIII’s blood effects were significantly reduced and recolored in the 2011 trailer. As many waves as the 2006 fight scene made, one shot of Noct impaling a soldier is kind of small beans next to an on-screen beheading.
For another, blood or no, FFXV has consistently highlighted its protagonist’s vulnerability in a way that’s really quite unusual for a game that isn’t meant to be either a horror game or a cinematic platformer. On a narrative level, we’ve seen Noct lying on the ground, bloody and unresponsive, as a child; we’ve seen him confined to a wheelchair when recovering from those injuries and needing to be carried off by his father after another attack; we’ve seen him traumatized by his own near-death, anxiety-ridden at the thought of his father’s, and weeping as he accepts that Regis is truly gone; we’ve seen him set on fire; and we’ve seen him chained up and tortured.
And even in terms of pure game mechanics, Noct feels much more vulnerable now than he did back in the vXIII days. His friends are specifically programmed to act protectively towards him, he’s got a limited amount of stamina for sprinting, his magic is a double-edged sword, he takes damage from falling, he’s subject to heavy hitstun along with some downright vicious enemy attack animations (the Numb Blade’s impaling attack, yeesh), the pinch HP system that prevents instant game overs also practically ensures that he’ll be stumbling around in agony at times, and even healing items like Potions and Phoenix Down are portrayed as somewhat painful to use. Going out at night means risking the wrath of dangerously overleveled monsters. Massive beasts and summons exist whose size makes Noct look inconsequential. And some of the gameplay trailers have specifically spotlighted failure states, like the Malboro reveal and Noct falling off the Citadel in the E3 trailer.
In other words, Noct went from what seemed like the ultimate FF power fantasy at his introduction to something more like Shadow of the Colossus’ Wander with magic. (I don’t think the special thanks credit to Fumito Ueda was a coincidence. =P ) And while designing a player character to feel vulnerable and small in spite of his access to powers others in his world can only dream of is definitely an interesting choice, I’m not sure I’d call it a safe one.
(For the record, the way Noct has been treated sort of changes the dynamic with regards to Luna’s treatment by the trailers in ways that I’m not sure I’ve ever seen addressed. Yes, she’s been portrayed as vulnerable multiple times by now, but that’s mostly in line with the way Noct’s been treated so it’s hard to say much without knowing the context.)
Tagged: A+, the FFXV verse so far has done a lot to deconstruct toxic masculinity and it is important to consider, then again the fans who want blood probably don’t care about that.
What’s kind of ironic is that the glorification of bloody violence is probably a toxic masculinity thing in and of itself. >_>;
FFXV is going to be super interesting to analyze with regards to gender once it’s out and playable from start to finish, at the very least. Like, there seems to be this pattern of Noct’s role as Prince/King causing him misery, whether because his father was too busy to spend time with him as a kid or because using the power that comes with his role is literally killing him. We’ve already seen from Brotherhood that violence and anger are entirely ineffective for him as ways of coping with his negative emotions. He’s come across as
very uncertain in the interest
in Luna (and entirely lacking in interest for other women). Plus, there’s stuff like his distaste for vegetables, which could have been used to push him as a Manly Man but mostly just suggests childishness.
And that’s not even mentioning two of the three other male party members taking on the Team Mom and emotional support roles, or the only traditionally masculine guy of the bunch being Mr. Fanservice. XD;
The way FF has used bloody violence so far, I don’t think it could be considered a symptom of toxic masculinity, because it’s mostly been Our Heroes getting bloodied up, either to show them dying painfully (Crisis Core, Type-0) or to emphasize them hitting rock bottom to make a comeback (Advent Children Complete), and it hasn’t been glorified so much as looking like it Hurts Very Badly.
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that FF was glorifying violence… just the
subset of its fans who got caught up in their fantasies about a Versus
XIII with strawberry jam gore and dismemberment.
Because as you said, FF hasn’t exactly been doing much in the way of
glorification when it portrays graphic violence. There are definitely
moments of stylized awesome, but they’ve tended to be neither bloody nor
lethal (like the counterattack in the Aranea fight), particularly not against human adversaries. And when the
violence is more graphic, any potential thrill tends to be sucked out it
by slowing the pacing down to focus on the devastation wreaked on its
victims.
(Tabata’s favorite way of doing that, interestingly enough, seems to be
lingering on the mental degradation of the dying – think
the breakdown of Zack’s DMW and the slow blink he does after he’s shot
the final time, or little Noct blearily taking note of the blood on
his hand without really seeming to comprehend what’s going on. It’s
quite effective at undercutting any potential “cool” factor, since there’s no “going out with a bang” sort of glory, just starkly portrayed human cost.)
And, I don’t know what this says about me as a person, but there is a
certain type of brutal, bloody violence that makes me sit up and pay close attention.
I downloaded ACC to my computer before I had a Bluray player pretty
much exclusively so I could watch Cloud get sliced up. So I am very
excited that, judging by that little clip of the Aranea fight and from
various other stuff, FFXV is going to have our heroes both dishing it
out and taking it.
Well, it’s sort of culturally expected for adult action fans to value
brutal violence as a reflection of a work’s level of maturity, so I’m
not sure your response to it is unusual. ^^;
I do think that there’s a difference between combat pragmatism like
the Aranea clips and the glorification of graphic violence, though…
which is sort of reflected, interestingly enough, in Tabata’s decision
to make the Niflheim troops into robots.
A while back, I split violence into four distinct types (thematic, performative, edgy, sadistic)
and of those four, mainline FF – at least starting with VII and most obviously advancing with Advent Children – has traditionally focused on
performative violence as a core value and unique selling point. FFXV
continues that tradition, but it does so by creating a separate category
of “guilt-free” violence (i.e., violence against non-humans or
non-lethal, non-graphic violence against human enemies) to make cool so
it doesn’t seem as inconsistent when the game does portray the consequences of violence as
awful for thematic purposes.
(FFXV also relies on the Chocobros’ combat demeanor for characterization – look at how Prompto moves, for a great example of that – so actually
having them cheerfully killing other human beings would
probably elicit a “Nate Drake the mass-murderer”-style overreaction from
the ludonarrative dissonance set.)
As for Cloud getting sliced up in ACC, that scene mixes a lot of performativity with some thematic value and a high-for-FF-but-not-in-general amount of edge. It’s also something of a strange stylistic middle-ground insofar as it wants the audience to get to see Sephiroth do something cool while also conveying Cloud’s suffering and sort of undercuts any intended realism in the service of that. So, say, Cloud’s injuries look nasty, but the blood on the ground looks an awful lot like red paint (in contrast to the “edgier” strawberry jam look). I could definitely see that particular scene being appreciated on a performative level even without an interest in edgyness because of that. *shrugs*
And man, I am SO INTERESTED in how Noctis/Luna plays out. FF has had
plenty of royalty, but it’s never explored this aspect of it. I mean,
they obviously have a connection, but do they have a romance? Will
either of them survive long enough to marry each other? If so, will they
be friends and political allies or is the game going to have them fall
for each other?
Same here! The impression I’ve gotten from Tabata’s interviews and Brotherhood is that Luna openly likes Noct (even beyond her obvious dedication to ensuring his success for the sake of the world) and that Noct has feelings for her that he isn’t comfortable expressing openly. And, of course, the political marriage complicates things even more because Noct seems to take issue with the way it completely removes his agency from the equation.
Luna’s radio address in the EGX Playstation Access footage added another wrinkle, too – Luna’s role as the Oracle apparently requires her to travel the world, and that’s not something she intends to change just because she’s getting married. And Noct, obviously, is going to get tied down to Lucis once he reclaims his throne.
In other words, there are plenty of points of stress that’ll need to be dealt with even if the “does Noct have feelings for her?” question is resolved quickly, and I really hope we get to see some of that potential realized. It’s definitely easy to see why we’d have been told that their relationship would be atypical.
I’ve never had a problem with the all male party because I think
platonic/brotherly love is a good and valid thing to make a story about.
And a weirdly uncommon one? Like, the thing that most comes to mind
when I think of this kind of dynamic is Harry Potter fanfiction about
the Marauders. But I still feel that people who are like “the all-male
party is a GOOD THING because it combats TOXIC MASCULINITY” are maybe…
reaching?
As far as I’m concerned, the game’s largely non-toxic portrayal of male-male relationships is more of a neutralizing factor than a positive one. *shrugs* It’s not like those types of relationships couldn’t have been shown with a co-ed party, after all (even if I do think their execution might have been different in some ways in that case).
It’s probably worth pointing out, though, that platonic/brotherly love wasn’t actually that uncommon as a focus in pre-modern works, or works with heavy pre-modern influence. Tolkien was big on this sort of thing, for instance – there’s a reason Frodo/Sam is like catnip to shippers. ;)
What makes FFXV’s use of it significant is the context in which it exists – it’s hard to think of a medium more devoid of exploration of emotional intimacy between guys than the AAA video game space. XD;
I think it’s significant, though, not just that the chocobros are all
boys but that they’re all near the same age. It opens up dynamics that
are common in JRPGs in general but really haven’t been explored by FF
before. Like the hero’s best friend is in about every Tales game, but
the only other character that fills that slot in FF is Kain, who
is worlds different than Prompto. And the Smart Guy role is usually
filled by a Cid, who is usually older and crustier and often a
non-combatant. Gladio is a type we’ve pretty much seen before, but
again, he’s usually older. It all just goes to emphasize that they are so young and so alone. Have
any FF heroes had the kind of weight on their shoulders Noct has? Ashe
had to take back a kingdom, but she had Ondore and Al-Cid’s help. Yuna
held the fate of the world in her hands, but while traveling to
Zanarkand and dying is terrible, it seems almost easier than the
responsibility of ruling for the rest of your life while wielding
phenomenal cosmic power which btw is going to kill you slowly.
There have been a lot of complaints about the relative homogeneity of Noct’s party, but it does seem like them all being around the same age and long-time friends changes most of the stock roles significantly. Like, Prompto is Noct’s best friend, but that can’t really define him when the other two party members are also Noct’s close friends. Ignis is the planner, but he’s also the Mom Friend because someone has to take care of the guys. Gladio can act as a mentor without being a (narrative) threat to Noct’s growth because he’s not much older and more of a peer than an elder.
“Who has it worse” comparisons often come down to who the people involved in the discussion sympathize with the most, but I will say that FFXV does seem to be putting a much greater focus on the weight and consequences of Noct’s responsibility than previous FFs have tended to do, and Noct and his friends’ youth and vulnerability definitely play into that.
[Also we are many of us already succumbing to the urge to make these
pretty boys’ Good and Pure friendships into various permutations of
Fucking Each Other Blind. And that urge is partially our own sexual
frustrations, but also… making their love sexual and/or romantic means
that it comes to some sort of catharsis instead of just making your
heart hurt forever.
Or maybe that’s just me.]
This is an interesting observation, and not something I’d have ever thought of on my own. Thinking about it, though, I can kind of see how shipping fics could be used as a means of creating catharsis for a favored relationship. It’s certainly a more preferable explanation than “some people think only romantic/sexual relationships count as The Most Important.” XD;
And I’m kind of sorry that I threw all this at the bottom of your
post, but Novemeber 29th can’t come fast enough and I Am Dying.
You don’t have to apologize in the slightest, believe me. XD; It’s really nice to get into a discussion about this game that isn’t either, like, complaining about Cindy* and/or framerates.
* I’d have much preferred Cindy’s design to be less suggestive, don’t get me wrong, but it’s frustrating to see her consistently treated as basically equivalent to MGSV’s Quiet instead of the obvious Daisy Duke expy that she is. >_>;