Leonard Sweet, Methodist New Ager, Professor of Wikiletics,
Church and Chicanery Sweet-heart.
Kent Hunter and Waldo Werning (?!) were also invited.
The Present Future / Reggie McNeal
Reggie McNeal, Church Growth Guru
ELCA event: "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy: Let the River Flow is a "connecting event" event for pastors, staff, and other leaders of large ELCA congregations and "anyone who feels they can benefit from this opportunity". The event will be June 18-21 at Prince of Peace Lutheran in Burnsville, Minnesota. Featured speakers include Martin E. Marty, Barbara Rossing, Reggie McNeal, Wyvetta Bullock, Len Sweet, Ken Medema, and Peter Eide. Registration is $150 (or $100 for registrations before April 13)." [GJ - All the reds are C and C heroes.]
Many church leaders are trying to figure out how best to "do church" in today's changing culture. We're searching for answers. But maybe we're asking the wrong questions. Maybe we're avoiding the tough (right) questions. To help identify and answer those questions, pick up The Present Future - Six Tough Questions for the Church by Reggie McNeal. [2003, The Jossey-Bass Leadership Network Series]
Selected from the front and back flap:
"McNeal contends that by changing the questions church leaders ask themselves about their congregations and their plans, they can frame the core issues and approach the future with new eyes, new purpose, and new ideas. The Present Future captures the urgency of a future that is literally now upon us, in a thoughtful, vigorous way." (End of Quote)
Chapters include:
a.. New Reality Number One: The Collapse of the Church Culture
b.. New Reality Number Two: The Shift from Church Growth to Kingdom Growth
c.. New Reality Number Three: A New Reformation - Releasing God's People
d.. New Reality Number Four: The Return to Spiritual Formation
e.. New Reality Number Five: The Shift from Planning to Preparation
f.. New Reality Number Six: The Rise of Apostolic Leadership
g.. Things I Didn't Say
Reggie McNeal is an insightful and entertaining public speaker, and he writes well too! He is the director of leadership development for the South Carolina Baptist Convention (so keep that context in mind), but don't let that stop you from purchasing, reading, and discussing The Present Future with others.
Possible Purchase Options:
Your Local Christian Bookstore???
Compare Internet Prices: http://www.allbookstores.com/book/compare/0787965685
Pastor Elton C. Stroh
WELS Parish Assistance
251 Luther Drive
Sun Prairie, WI 53590
Phone: 608-837-3819
Email: stroh@...
"I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God." (Rom. 15:17)
Re: [church_and_change] The Present Future / Reggie McNeal
Elton,
Thanks for sharing this info with Church & Change. I read the book earlier this month and agree with your comments. I've been recommending the book to anyone who wants to have their (sic) perspectives challenged.
Bruce Becker, Administrator
WELS Board For Parish Services
Bruce Becker, Top Dog, Parish Services, The Love Shack
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - which is your spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1).
2005 Church and Change Conference
Brothers and Sisters:
Your steering committee has been actively working on the next Church and Change Conference. We're excited about it...there are a number of plans in the > works (including a vendor area). We have engaged one of the best communicators in the nation right now as the featured speaker...writer of numerous books and journal columns, etc. We have much more to share with you as things get put together.
We're letting you know all this now so you can plan to attend. We think you may want to bring as many members of the leadership group from your congregation as possible. We do plan to make this conference known to all in the WELS, but are giving you the first "heads up". If you know of others outside the C & C community who would appreciate this chance to hear, learn, and network with those who are often at the forefront of ministry innovations and are passionately pursuing lost people as well as growing in their discipling efforts, please pass this announcement on to them. Further updates will be forthcoming.
We are in the process of determining how large a venue to use because of the quality of the speaker. We are also working out the details as to cost, etc. But this we do know:
Dates: November 9-11, 2005 (Wed.-Fri)
Place: Madison, Wisconsin
C &C convention committee
So who is the speaker? Please don't tease us!!! Is it a secret????!!!??
Joe Krohn [aka The Bass Player, Rock and Roll Church, Round Rock, Texas; previously a member at another stealth WELS church - CrossWalk, Phoenix. Joe is a buddy of VP Don Patterson.]
We are trying to build a sense of anticipation because there are so many more things coming (venue, settings, innovations, music, etc.) ....can give you this information (below) from his website. If you can't wait, of course, we will share it with you, Joe, or with the whole group.
Author of more than one hundred articles, over five hundred published sermons, and dozens of books....
comments from others:
One of the church’s most important and provocative thinkers.
No church leader understands better how to navigate the seas of the 21st century.
A writer of vast imagination, poise and charm.
I can’t imagine a Christian leader in America who hasn’t read one or more of _______ _______'s books.
Some statistician-types will drown you in doom and gloom. _______’s message is uplifting, hopeful and relevant.
John Huebner
John Huebner
Mike Borgwardt, Stealth Church Pastor in Chicago.
Thanks for the hint. I heard _____ speak at an "emerging church" conferencethis year and he didn't disappoint. Great choice!
Michael Borgwardt
For those of you who are curious like me & don't have the patience to wait for the public revealing of the name of the guest speaker:
Go to your search engine, like Google, or whatever you use. Type in a quote from John Huebner's announcement. e.g., "church's most important and provocative thinkers" & your search engine will give you the website of the mysterious speaker.
Jon Mahnke [GJ - These Church and Chicanery people are sneaky - even with their ovine members!]
you rascal!
John Huebner
2005 Church and Change Conference
November 9-11
Madison, Wisconsin
The 2005 Church and Change Conference will challenge, inspire, and encourage you as a Christian and as a leader of Christians. But then, when several hundred creative WELS pacesetters gather around God's Word and share their ideas, that's what we expect would happen.
We are excited to announce that world-class Christian researcher and communicator Dr. Leonard Sweet will be the keynote speaker for this year's conference. He will address the general session all day on Thursday, November 10. More information about Dr. Sweet can be found at http://www.leonardsweet.com/biocv.asp (you may have to copy then paste the
address into your browser).
In addition to Dr. Sweet, we are putting together 15-18 workshops that will cover subjects such as:
* New approaches to children's and youth ministry.
* Starting a contemporary worship service.
* New and effective approaches to apologetics (defending what we
believe).
* Insightful interviews with former WELS members.
* Women's ministries.
* Small groups.
* Preaching in today's world.
* And much more..
The conference steering committee is interested in hearing about workshop topics you feel are beneficial for this year's conference. Please share your suggestions with Barry Spencer at spebar@....
Barry Spencer, St. Marcus, Milwaukee
New to this year's conference will be a Church and Change Exhibit Hall. This room will feature the latest in ministry resources!
This conference is for innovative Christian leaders like yourself. Please keep it in your prayers! Mark your calendar now! Invite your friends. And stay tuned to our Church and Change listserv for information updates in the coming weeks and months.
Serving with you,
Barry SpencerChurch and Change Steering Committee
Dear Church and Change Group,
A couple of months ago, it was officially announced here that the keynote speaker for the November conference would be Leonard Sweet, and a link was given to his website. On that website, he has a book available for download, Quantum Spirituality.
In reading that book, a few things began to jump out at me, and I started to put together quotes from the book. I shared it with my pastor and a few others. However, I have really hesitated about sharing it here. I started to, more than once. I finally began to wonder if it was fair to withhold it from you, so here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/christianconcerns/index.quantum.htm
If you read it, please, also go back to his original book (I've got the link there for you) and make sure for yourself that I took nothing out of context. I've included page numbers for you to find the quotes, but I also encourage you to attempt to wade through at least some of the Quantum Spirituality book. If Leonard Sweet comes this fall, and you hear him speak, you need to know that this is the filter through which he sees the world.
Thanks -
A WELS woman who thinks it's better to have a map of unknown terrain
P.S. The page is a private page. You can't get to it without being given the
address. I'm not out to publish this. I just didn't know how else to share it.
Leonard Sweet is scheduled as the keynote speaker for the (sort of WELS) Church
& Change 2005 conference to be held in November.
Sort of WELS...I have always wondered why we allow non-WELS people to be involved in this. I think it has some WELS people upset. I have not read the book that is mentioned below but the title is questionable to me to say the least. I'm not saying that we should shield ourselves off from the outside world but why allow our members to hear stuff that might possibly lead them down a road of questionable thinking?? I just hope these non-WELS speakers have been throughly looked at and have been given the stamp of approval by Synod. I know we are trying to broaden our views, but aren't there enough WELS views out there on the sessions being held so we are not tempted to go outside our circles in order to broaden them?
Jennifer Kluender
I don't think you give any credit to our WELS members for being well grounded in Biblical and spiritual matters. The Lord has given us a discerning heart that he wants us to use in all areas of our lives. Just because a presenter is not WELS does not mean that we, as a church body, cannot learn some interesting facts and possibly broaden our scope of outreach. I believe it is healthy for our members to go "outside of our circles" and learn what other church bodies are doing and
professing. Then, trust that the Holy Spirit will guide our hearts and thoughts in making God-pleasing decisions and conclusions about what was presented. Burying our heads in the sand as a Synod by disregarding any presenter who is not WELS is ludicrous.
Lyle Strehler
Bloomington Living Hope Lutheran Church and School
While I agree that it is healthy for our people to go outside of our circles and learn what others are teaching and saying, that is quite different from bringing others from outside of our circles into our circles. We do not - for good reasons of fellowship - bring others into our churches to preach to our people. In the same way, do we really want to bring in others to teach? My point was not to say that others don't have anything worthwhile to say, but rather to point out that we have plenty of resources within our synod & church fellowship than to actively bring in those who may hold heterodox views. Making them a part of "our" event (WELS sponsored) essentially puts our stamp of approval on them. It seems like this could be misleading to our people. Our people are not stupid - but there are those who trust that "if it is allowed in our midst, it must be all OK." Not everyone is a theologian.
Jennifer Kluender
I guess from my perspective while there are no hard and fast rules, the issue in this area generally boils down to a question as to the subject of the presentation. One generally would not invite a Roman Catholic priest in to make a presentation to a WELS group on the Biblical doctrine of justification (at least without a presenter who could present the correct doctrine). Conversely, one could invite a Roman Catholic priest in to speak to a group of parents of school children regarding his experiences in working with children who are involved in drugs - since his expertise and the subject generally of the presentation would not be impacted by the
fallacies of Roman Catholic theology.
So this then raises a couple of questions...
First, what expertise or teaching are we looking to obtain from Sweet?
Second, is this expertise and teaching such that his obviously problematic
views regarding Christianity would be a key part of his presentation (and if
not a key part would they be a part of the presentation in any way)?
Anyone care to comment?
With best regards,
Harvey Dunn
One could say that since this is *not* a worship
situation, per se, but a gathering of individuals
seeking input and ideas, that Leonard Sweet *could* be
welcomed. I remember President Preuss from
Concordia-Fort Wayne speaking at the Reformation
lectures at Bethany College/Seminary when I was a
student there. (Preuss was the first graduate of
Bethany Seminary, so there was some nostalgia there).
The seminarians were able to have lunch with President
Preuss and his views were engaging (especially when
asked why he didn't leave LC-MS).
In a forum such as is proposed, there is plenty of
room for grounded Biblical teaching to be repeated as
opposed to one speaker's beliefs. Also, will there be
break-out groups? The more discerning can help any
weaker brethren by pointing out error *as well as* any
valid points the speaker makes.
Sometimes we need to look at out fellowship
*principles* and also note they are not *laws.* There
is a reason we *do not* have someone not of our
fellowship deliver a sermon in our pulpits or
administer the sacraments. Yet we can include others
in forums where there is a chance for give-and-take
and questions can be asked and we can learn from the
experiences of those who have been *successful* in an
area of ministry.
Of course, this *could* beg the question, "What is a
successful ministry? And are we getting too caught up
in raw numbers?" This, too, needs to be explored and
dealt with. We can get so caught up in growing numbers
that we don't nurture (grow) those already in our
care.
John Hoh
Your response again leads me to wonder, "Why are so many WELS members so
afraid of bringing those outside our denomination in for a
presentation?" I attended a Church and Change conference where one of
the guest speakers was outside of our denomination. I don't believe
there was anything in his presentation that anyone in attendance could
dispute or find errors. What he had to say was enlightening and thought
provoking. Too often, the same WELS speakers are asked to give a
workshop on a topic in which they may not be well versed. While I
appreciate the time and effort that is put into a specific topic by
these men, why not ask an expert in that area to give the workshop? If
the presenter raises questions or ideas that are contrary to our
beliefs, what better time is there to witness or discuss these questions
with your pastor or others in your congregation? You don't need to be a
theologian to question things that you are unsure of.
Lyle Strehler
Bloomington Living Hope Lutheran Church and School
A couple (actually more than a couple) of additional thoughts regarding the
appearance of Dr. Sweet....
Whether we are dealing with fellowship principles or with who is scheduled
to appear at a conference or with what color of the walls in the narthex
should be painted, the ultimate guiding principle for a Christian should be
to deal with those around us with love. This is especially true regarding
our fellow WELS members. Similarly, as we live our lives as Christians, out
of love, we should strive not to do anything that falls in the category of
adiaphora that would cause any of our fellow Christians to stumble - even if
what we would be doing was in and of itself "permissible."
Thus, I suppose an additional set of questions (beyond those outlined below
in my first message) should be asked and answered by those putting on the
conference:
Is the fact that a conference heralds its affiliation with WELS and touts
"world-class Christian researcher and communicator Dr. Leonard Sweet" as its
keynote speaker something that could cause a WELS member to stumble?
If we get past the questions below, i.e., it is concluded that Dr. Sweet's
expertise and the presentation that the conference expects to receive from
him are such that his obviously problematic views regarding Christianity
would not be substantively proclaimed (or better yet that such would not be
in any way presented as a part of his presentation), then I guess I would
also expect them to have considered the impact that Dr. Sweet as the keynote
presenter at a WELS-associated conference would have on others in the Synod.
(Is it possible that some could conclude that because of Dr. Sweet's
association with WELS that WELS now endorses or teaches and holds to views
comparable to his and as a result thereby be led astray or have their faith
in the truth of God's Word be impacted?
I guess I am wondering now if these questions were asked as a part of the
planning process for the conference? Did someone look at what Dr. Sweet
proclaims regarding Christianity before he was invited as the keynote
speaker? Did they then conclude that his views on Christianity would not be
in any way proclaimed as a part of his presentation? I hope so.
Let me pose another question: Would we be acting in love and in the best
interests of other members of the WELS if we were to invite (were she still
alive) Madelyn Murray O'Hair to speak to one of our conferences -- let's say
on the subject of how one should effectively appeal those in secular
society?
Yes, I know that seems a bit of an unfair comparison. But, on the other
hand, in my opinion it is easier to deal with the false doctrine of an
atheist than it is to deal with the false doctrine of someone like Dr. Sweet
who says he is a Christian. Is this a case where we for good intentions got
caught up in the exercising of our Christian freedom and forgot about the
need to consider how others in WELS might view the decision?
Any one involved in the planning of the conference care to comment?
With best regards,
Harvey Dunn
Full disclosure - this is Joel Kluender speaking - not Jennifer, my
wife. I've been following the thread on Leonard Sweet and his being
invited by some WELS congregations to the Church and Change
conference. I have taken a look at his book online and I must say
that what I have found is extremely disturbing.
****Here is a direct quote from his book Quantum Spirituality.
"What tradition supposes Wesley to have discovered at Aldersgate is
that Logos is an energy-releasing event. Energy flows are absolutely
indispensable to the emergence of life, whether biological or
spiritual.ý Just as farmers are said to provide only 5 percent of the
energy necessary to produce crops--the energy of nature provides the
other 95 percent--so general reason or logos provides only the
energy of receptivity in the divine-human encounter that leads to
Logos . God provides the rest by other means." (p. 68)
***And here is another quote:
"But the energy of divine love was assembled in matter in
the human form of the Logos-Christ. Jesus is God's most sublime
manifestation of energy matter" (p.64)
And here is my (Joel's) response:
THESE ARE NOT JUST THE INERT, BENIGN MUSINGS ABOUT GOD BY A
PHILOSOPHER FASCINATED WITH PHYSICS. THESE ARE FALSE DOCTRINE!
IN THESE QUOTES SWEET HAS TAKEN THE CLEAR AND CONCRETE TEACHING OF
THE INCARNATE CHRIST, AND COUCHED IT IN NEW-AGE THEOLOGY
MASQUERADING AS "NEW LIGHT".
TO TEACH THAT WE HAV ANY PART IN OUR CONVERSION GOES AGAINST THE
CLEAR TEACHING OF SCRIPTURE. THAT IS WHAT THE FIRST QUOTE DOES -
SUGGESTING THAT OUR logos OR REASON PROVIDES 5% AND THE OTHER 95%
COMES FROM GOD. BLASPHEMY!
THE SECOND QUOTE THAT JESUS IS "GOD'S MOST SUBLIME MANIFESTATION OF
ENERGY MATTER" IS TANTAMOUNT TO DENYING THE ETERNAL DIVINITY OF
CHRIST. JESUS IS NOT A "MANIFESTATION" OF GOD. JESUS IS GOD.
IN SUMMARY, IF A SPEAKER WHO ESPOUSES THESE VIEWS IS BEING WELCOMED
INTO WELS CIRCLES, THERE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM IN THE WELS.
FOR THE RECORD, I AM AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, WITH A MASTERS DEGREE
IN MICROELECTRONICS, AND I HAVE TAKEN GRADUATE COURSES IN QUANTUM
PHYSICS. WHAT THIS GUY IS TEACHING IS NOT QUANTUM PHYSICS, IT IS
BIBLICAL HERESY.
ROMANS 6:23 AND JOHN 3:16 SAY MORE OF WORTH TO US AS CHRISTIANS THAN
ALL OF THE QUANTUM PSYCHO-BABBLE IN THE WORLD. WE IN WELS SHOULD
WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Joel Kluender
This is Mark Paustian, currently teaching up at MLC. I applied to join the
Church & Change forum merely because I learned that some materials I had put
out many years ago, a long list of sermons series I had preached as an
outreach exploratory missionary, were posted somewhere on the website.
(That's a whole 'nother story; in my freedom, I've changed my views on
sermon series and am no longer completely comfortable being seen as an
advocate of that homiletical method. I digress.)
Anyway, I confess to being one who has watched "Church & Change" with a
little skepticism and concern. There's no need to react to that statement,
since I'll admit it's largely based on perception. In fact, I teach
communications at MLC (also Hebrew) and I both know the destructive power of
perception and am an energetic proponent of ethical dialogue. So, I say
from the heart, more power to you!
My whole point is that, from what I've learned so far about Leonard Sweet,
the people involved in "church and change" may be shooting themselves in the
foot, unnecessarily polarizing the people of the WELS. That would sadden
me. I can only think there are many, many people who are like me, hoping to
hear good things come out of "church and change" to dispel our skepticism,
chiefly by providing new models of energetic Lutheranism that manage to
penetrate this pathetically lost culture. I was in church planting and home
mission work for over 12 years, and I do understand the pain and passion
that clearly makes the people in "church and change," and all of you, tick.
I fear Leonard Sweet will become the issue. To put it crassly, he's a PR
nightmare:-)
[GJ - And not a doctrinal nightmare? How Church and Changish to say that.]
He threatens to be the thing people will point to as telling evidence of
what "church and change" is all about, how well rooted and grounded this
rising organization is in appropriate theological exploration and
expression, even how Lutheran you really want to be. And I'm afraid people
will falsely read the minds and hearts of the organizers, as if they only
turn to a man of Sweet's theology after concluding the answers they need
most are not contained in their own,as if mining the depths of God's heart
in his Word has plainly not worked.so we turn with eager ears to a brilliant
unregenerate mind. I'm not saying that's a fair assessment. I'm positive
it's NOT a fair assessment. And I'm not saying Sweet's talk won't be
fascinating, or even helpful to gospel ministry in some way the speaker
himself doesn't have the heart to intend. (At the same time, if you've ever
been broken, truly broken, the only indispensable word was absolution.and to
listen too long to a speaker who doesn't know of such things finally does
little but break your heart. I know how pious and simplistic that sounds.)
Anyway, what I am saying is that Sweet will polarize, damage the credibility
of your movement and create needless controversy. I have a hard time
believing this speaker is worth it, from what little I know about him. I
could be wrong. Someone in our camp is obviously impressed with him for
reasons I'm just not privy to. That's an honest confession of ignorance,
not a thinly veiled jab.
So much of your dialogue in this chat room heartens me and causes me to
reconsider my poorly substantiated concerns about "church and change." In
the deepest place, we are the same in Christ, and we all want essentially
the same thing for our dear, dear WELS, though our visions may differ
greatly. Having Sweet as a keynote speaker (please tell me I'm wrong about
that) tugs hard in the opposite direction. (By the way, I was captivated
and edified by a speech by Edward Veiths, author of "Loving God With All
Your Mind" at a WELS college symposium not too long ago. He's not WELS, but
he is a brilliant, regenerate, theologically conservative, Christ-centered
thinker who has much to say about communicating Christ even in a secular
postmodern academic setting. I'd endorse him for a setting like the one we
have in mind in a heartbeat. I'm not framing this in terms of fellowship.)
Now, what if we were looking for a keynote speaker and asked, "Who in our
midst do we think has the very strongest grasp of the intended meaning of
God's own Word to the WELS by virtue of their scholarship in the original
languages of Scripture?" What if we said, "Isn't that who we want to set
the tone for our event.someone who can speak to us from the very heart and
mind of God!?" And what if we let come to mind the names of, for example,
my colleagues at MLC, scholars like Joel Frederick (Greek) and Tom Nass
(Hebrew).now that would be change.
Sorry this was so long. If it turns out I've only managed to offend, this
will be the last you'll ever hear from me, I promise.
Mark Paustian
I've read with interest the comments about having Dr. Leonard Sweet speak at the Church and Change Conference. I also received a number of letters in response to my decision to have Dr. Reggie McNeal speak at the Church Door Symposium sponsored by The CHARIS Institute at WLC this past February 28. As many of you may know, WLC has had many speakers from a wide variety of religious backgrounds speak on campus. Because we have from time to time received letters of concern, I have developed a fairly generic response. I am attaching a copy of this response letter for your consideration. It is also published in the upcoming issue of CHARIS and I've even given permission to have it posted on the "Issues in the WELS" web site that has been created by the "Union Grove" folks.
(See attached file: Response RE McNeal.doc)
Dr. John E. Bauer
Executive Director, CHARIS
Wisconsin Lutheran College
Thank you for your letter expressing concern about Dr. Reggie McNeal's
speaking at the upcoming Church Door Symposium. I understand your concern,
but must respectfully disagree with your conclusion that his speaking
somehow represents a violation of Romans 16:17 and our Synod's Doctrine of
Church Fellowship. With this letter I hope to explain why I disagree with
you and, in submission to God and His Word, seek to arrive at a shared
understanding of the Scriptures with you on this matter.
I first of all want to assure you that careful thought was given to
inviting Dr. McNeal. In planning the symposium, I sought the advice of a
number of our Synod leaders regarding who they would most want to hear
speak on the general topic of leading the church into a new century. In
fact, it was their encouragement that prompted me to contact Dr. McNeal.
Since inviting him, I have had numerous other pastors and lay leaders
express their excitement about his coming. His books, particularly his most
recent volume, The Present Future, appear to be widely read by our WELS
clergy.
The issue of having non-WELS speakers has been greatly studied and argued
about in recent years. Admittedly, WLC has been something of a lightening
rod in this area. But I can assure you that it is because we believe that
in Christian freedom we not only can support such guest speakers, but also
believe that it is the right thing to do in order to accomplish our
Christian education objectives. However, to help put your mind at ease,
permit me to share the thoughts of some of our respected church leaders on
the subject.
On April 6, 1999, the Conference of Presidents of the WELS passed the
following resolution:
"Presentations and discussions about secular and/or religious matters
which take place in schools, churches, conferences, commissions and
parasynodical organizations of our fellowship, or similar events, can
take place outside the framework of fellowship. When speakers and
presenters are not of our fellowship they MUST be conducted outside the
framework of fellowship."
This statement reflects the theses on Church Fellowship in the Doctrinal
Statements of 1970, which I regard as a correct explanation and application
of the biblical passages that address church fellowship. The opening thesis
describes church fellowship as "every joint expression, manifestation, and
demonstration of the common faith in which Christians on the basis of their
confession find themselves to be united with one another." It is possible,
however, and in some contexts it may be necessary to listen to or speak
with a person or persons not united with us in doctrine “ to hear and
evaluate their viewpoint more fully, to debate that viewpoint, or to
witness to them of our own beliefs.
The book by Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary Professor John Brug, Church
Fellowship: Working Together for the Truth, grants this possibility:
"Various WELS organizations or schools may invite lecturers from outside
our fellowship to present information to their group. This does not
involve fellowship if no worship or religious instruction are involved,
but only the giving of information. In situations that might create
unclarity, such as a series of public lectures presented at a seminary
or college of our fellowship, it is wise to make a specific announcement
that these lectures are being presented outside the framework of
fellowship. The same principles apply to academic associations, such as
church history or archaeological societies." (pp. 155-156).
The practice of inviting guest speakers has a long history at WLC and a
policy governing such activities was carefully and thoughtfully developed.
At least one past Seminary president was on the WLC Board of Regents when
it approved the College's policy and he played an active role in its
development.
Guest artists and scholars from diverse backgrounds, experiences, and
perspectives shall be sought by Wisconsin Lutheran College each year to
offer vantages and viewpoints in various forums and formats to challenge
and provoke intellectual and spiritual growth among faculty and
students. Consistent with its philosophy and mission as a liberal arts
college, WLC promotes such experiences to help its student mature in
Christian discernment, to demonstrate how the Word of God speaks to
life's issues, to appreciate truth and beauty, and to grow in their
capacity to make informed value judgments.
With the guidance and spiritual advice of its pastor and Seminary president
members, the WLC Board of Regents signed and approved the chartering
documents for The CHARIS Institute, the purpose of which includes hosting
symposia at which non-WELS speakers could speak.
The practice of inviting non-WELS speakers has also been commonplace among
other organizations and agencies of the WELS. A few examples will make the
point:
Christian Life Resources, supported by its current and past board
members has invited such non-WELS speakers as C. Everett Koop, Charleton
Heston, Cal Thomas, and others to be keynote speakers for WELS Lutherans
for Life conventions.
The WELS Commission on Worship planned and hosted the WELS National
Conference on Worship, Music, and the Arts, and invited the likes of LCMS
Professor Wayne Schmidt (1995), LCMS Pastor Harold Senkbeil (1997), and
numerous non-WELS speakers and sectional leaders at the 1999, 2001, and
2003 conferences.
Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary has for many years invited non-WELS,
non-Lutheran, and even non-Christian speakers. These include Anson Rainey,
Menachen Mansoor, Robert Kolb, Gleason Archer, Basil Jackson, and many
others.
I should also mention that the audience of the Church Door Symposium is
primarily pastors, professors, teachers, and lay leaders. In other words,
the audience is comprised of those who are more likely to be deeply
involved in congregational ministries. These are not the weak in faith. To
be sure, WLC students and faculty will also be in attendance. However,
evaluating what Dr. McNeal has to say along side their professors promotes
exactly the kind of outcomes for our students that are described in our
“Guest Artist and Scholars policy. Furthermore, the context of Dr.
McNeal's presentations will be established before and after he speaks. You will
notice that the presentations will be followed by a panel discussion led by
a number of our WELS leaders.
At the heart of the issue seems to be an assumption on your part that
interacting with individuals on matters of mutual concern to Christ's
Church on earth (i.e., common to all the various tribes of Christianity),
is a violation of church fellowship. I hope I have shown that such is not
the case. As today's church, and the WELS in particular, seeks to find ways
to share the Gospel with a lost generation, the enemy is Satan, the world,
and our own flesh “ not other Christians from whom we might learn
something.
We also need to be reminded that the physical manifestation of the Church
that we call the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is a man-made and
imperfect organization of human beings. How it conducts its business,
carries out its ministries, organizes and funds itself – these are all
human endeavors. They are not God-ordained. Instead, we have great freedom
in the Gospel to utilize our human reason to plan, organize, manage, build,
develop programs, compose music, experiment with outreach strategies, and a
host of other human activities “ all humanly conceived in response to the
Great Commission.
This Synod has been phenomenally blessed for more than 150 years. It is a
very special group of people. But its congregations have shown in many ways
to lack the leadership, the zeal, the passion, and – in many cases – the
expertise and wherewithal, to extend themselves to an unbelieving world. We
were very successful at providing a home for 19th Century German
immigrants. We've been very good at perpetuating that white Western
European religious culture with the descendents of those immigrants. But we
have been pretty poor at sharing the Gospel with those from culturally,
ethnically and racially diverse backgrounds. We have not been very
successful at integrating ourselves into metropolitan communities. We
haven’t been very successful in reaching a younger generation that, while
spiritual, is not religious. And many of our long cherished institutions
(e.g., Lutheran elementary schools, Sunday schools) are showing their
inability to adapt to a changing culture that affects even our own members.
If Reggie McNeal or others of different denominational stripes can share
some insights and perspectives on how the human association of Christians
called the WELS can better heed Christ's command, then we should welcome
them. If we can learn how to overcome some of the obvious limitations we
face as a synod by seeking the advice of others with the expertise we lack,
then we should take from them whatever is useful and edifying for the
church.
No, I don't agree with your assertion that having Dr. McNeal is a violation
of Romans 16 or our synod's Doctrine of Church Fellowship. That doesn't
mean that your concerns are without merit. Please believe me when I say
that I weigh them very seriously. Any time a brother or sister in faith
raises a question of doctrine or practice with me, it is a matter of
concern. But I hope also that in giving voice to your concern, you can also
accept some instruction on the matter. And while I may not have completely
erased your concerns, I hope and pray that I have at least given you
something to reflect on, and perhaps pursue further in your own study of
God's Word or in your conversations with your pastor.
Thank you again for sharing your concerns. I greatly appreciate the fact
that you took the time to write to me.
Dr. John E. BauerExecutive Director, CHARIS
Wisconsin Lutheran College [Our Valpo, or, The Waffle House]
Greetings, I have always enjoyed the Reformation lectures that our sister synod
has held at Bethany college. There we hear experts from LCMS, ELS and WELS
write and react to topics. I have enjoyed what sainte Dr. Becker presented,
Eugene Bunkowske of Fort Wayne, Dr. Klug, Raymond Surburg, Armin Schuetze and
others have presented. I think we can learn from the ELS on how to bring
outside speakers in and gain insight from their studies.
Marcus Birkholz [Minnesota DP. But Marcus - the Bethany speakers are Lutheran.]
John, appreciate having this response, well-worded and well thought out, for
this often unsettling debate. By keeping the boundaries clear we strengthen
our doctrine of fellowship instead of weakening it.
I had the privilege of learning directly from Gleason Archer and Basil
Jackson during this kind of convocation at Sem and from others like John
Warwick Montgomery at free conferences. The exposure to others with such
incredible gifts reminds us to hone our own skills of investigation and
scholarship, without compromising any truth. It is in fact the kind of
dialogue which tests our own understanding and application of truth, and
allows for witness.
Thanks for sharing this.
Mark C. Wagner
Sisters and brothers,
In the discussion about non-WELS speakers, and Leonard Sweet in particular, I'm
seeing a dangerous combining of two inter-related but distinct issues.
1) Whether non-WELS speakers are ever appropriate at WELS-sponsored events
(official or not), and
2) Whether SPECIFIC non-WELS speakers--Sweet, in this case--are appropriate.
It has been demonstrated here already that we can be open to the possiblity of
non-WELS speakers, while at the same time questioning whether a PARTICULAR
non-WELS speaker is appropriate. These must be kept distinct.
The original post included a link to a lengthy website entry laying out specific, important issues with Sweet's writing. The writer took the issue seriously and the evidence seems to indicate that he or she tried to be as accurate and fair as possible. The case was stated in a responsible, thoughtful way, and I thank the writer for that.
To simply write off any challenge to Sweet's appropriateness as a head-in-the-sand rejection of any non-WELS insight (as some seem inclined to do) is to refuse to engage the issues that have been raised about Sweet's perspective and appropriateness.
Tim Helmen
RIGHT ON!!!!!!!
Brandon Wigley
Thanks, Tim, for bringing us back to the real concern
here. I don't think the question before us is so much
*can* we, but rather *should* we. ("everything is
permissible, but not everything is beneficial...")
I guess before judging this for myself I'd want to
know more about the content of the presentation. If
its simply to help us understand the post-modern
mindset, that's probably OK. If its theology - I
think we're in trouble. If its tactics to witness to
post-moderns, given what I've seen so far, I'm nervous
(in as much as tactics typically derive from one's
theology).
- Mark Salzwedel
I would imagine a line of questioning would include:
1. What is the conference about? (I admit, I haven't
read up on the conference itself, so this is my fault
for not doing "due diligence.")
2. What are the aims and goals of the conference?
3. Have the speakers been vetted? If so, can a
statement be made regarding the beliefs that differ
from Scripture?
4. Will there be a time for discussion either with the
speaker or in small groups? There is a time and place
to hear another viewpoint and then study that
viewpoint in light of Scripture. We should always be
"Berean" in this sense (by "Berean" I speak of the
people Luke praised in Acts, not the modern day group
using that name).
The Bethany series at Reformation does invite
non-WELS/ELS/CELC speakers. But there is always a
rebuttal following the primary speaker and a chance at
Q&A.
And in a sense, the fact the Leonard Sweet was
proposed made many on this list take the time and
effort to look into his writings and beliefs and raise
questions. That is not a bad thing. Had it been
accepted as "well, if it's OK with synod, it must be
okay," then we have a problem with apathy or spiritual
laziness. Questions are good; that's how we learn (and
something I need to remember as my 4-year-old son asks
me numerous questions every day. 4-year-old boys are a
joy!).
God's blessings to all.
John
JOHN L. HOH, JR.
Dr. Bauer,
Thank you very much for posting the letter which you wrote in response to
concerns regarding Dr. Reggie McNeal's speaking at that Church Door
Symposium. It is very well written and deals very well with an issue/event
that is similar to the one that we have been discussing regarding the Church
and Change conference and Dr. Sweet. If nothing else, one thing that I think that your letter very effectively does is to point out the fact that
whether the discussion is about Dr. McNeal speaking at a CHARIS event or Dr. Sweet speaking at a Church and Change event, the issue is not really one of fellowship or the application of fellowship principles.
In reviewing your letter, I also think it is important to note the thought
process (and review) through which it was determined that the appearance by
Dr. McNeal was proper. In the analysis in the letter you emphasized several factors in making the determination that inviting Dr. McNeal to the Church
Door Symposium was appropriate, e.g., (i) the nature of the audience (who
was going to be present at the event), (ii) the nature of the venue (where
the discussion was going to take place), (iii) the identity of the sponsor
(the nature, purpose and composition of the entity who was putting on the
event) and (iv) the purpose of the event (why it was deemed desirable to
bring in someone whose theological views were problematic) and (v) the
purpose for the presentation.
In the letter you review each of those factors and explain why those factors
as applied to that particular situation supported the inviting Dr. McNeal to
speak at the Church Door Symposium. While I would have liked your letter to
deal a bit more with the issue as to whether the publicity of having Dr.
McNeal speak at a "WELS event" could (or would) detrimentally affect the
faith of any WELS members (either as a result of a WELS member thinking that
Dr. McNeal's appearance at the event was a validation of Dr. McNeal's false
doctrinal views or as a result of a WELS member concluding that because of
Dr. McNeal's appearance at the event WELS held to the same views as Dr.
McNeal), I do agree with your ultimate conclusion that his appearance at a
CHARIS event, when all of the factors were balanced, was proper.
My concern, however, is that many (perhaps even virtually all) of the points
that you use to support the appearance of Dr. McNeal at the CHARIS Church
Door Symposium are not necessarily applicable to and do not necessarily
support an appearance by Dr. Sweet at a Church and Change event, e.g., (i)
the nature, purpose and composition of Church and Change are different from
the nature, purpose and composition of CHARIS, (ii) the audience at a Church
and Change conference is likely different from the audience at the Church
Door Symposium, (iii) the sponsoring entity for the Church and Change event
is not an institution of higher education, (iv) while it is clear from your
letter that Dr. McNeal's presentation would not be focused on a proclamation
of his particular doctrinal views, as yet such is not clear regarding the
planned presentation of Dr. Sweet, and (v) while the theological views of
Dr. Sweet and Dr. McNeal are both aberrational, the degree of the aberration
would appear to be markedly different.
In addition, I also have questions as to whether the same thought and
consideration that you clearly gave in issuing the invitation to Dr. McNeal
was given prior to the issuance of the invitation to Dr. Sweet. If it was
not, then that is of concern. (Frankly, I'd love to see some evidence that
the same level of analysis and consideration in fact was given.) The bottom
line as far as I am concerned is that we need to be very cognizant of the
fact that as leaders in WELS when we deal with this sort of "touchy" issue
we focus beyond what is merely permissible and instead focus on what in love
under the circumstances would fully meet, right and salutary.
Thanks again for posting your letter.
With best regards,
Harvey Dunn
Thanks, Tim for your reply which closely follows my thinking and
concerns.
Namely, I was not intending to suggest that outside speakers are
always inappropriate, always a violation of our fellowship doctrine,
and always to be rejected. Mr. Bauer's letter had many excellent
points, and I am not one to want to extinguish learning & academic
freedom when fellowship principles are not at stake.
It also was not my intent to bind the conscience of others who feel
that there are good things to learn from Mr. Sweet. As Prof.
Paustian aptly pointed out, there might be reasons that I am not
aware of for bringing him in.
Having said that...
Just because our Christian freedom allows us to listen to and yes -
even sponsor - talks by those who are not of our fellowship, so long
as it is outside the framework of fellowship - it doesn't mean that
it is a good thing to bring in Mr. Sweet.
Specifically, Mr. Sweet's theology in his book is my concern, not
debating fellowship issues (though it is a worthy debate, in and of
itself). What I found in his book "Quantum Spirituality" is so of-
base, so unbiblical, and so dangerous to the pure Gospel, so as to
give me serious pause for concern over him being a keynote speaker.
The attendees at the conference may very well have every spiritual
tool needed to test the spririts, to see whether they be of God. I
don't dispute that.
But based on the theology in "Quantum Spirituality", do we really
want to be known as the synod that has welcomed him and trumpeted
his appearance as being a great and glourius event?
I will make this my last post on the topic. My intent is not to
stifle debate, or make anyone who has been on this list longer than
I have feel as if they are under attack. As a future called worker
of our synod, my concern only is that in our Godly zeal to spread
the true and saving Gospel to a lost and dying world, we do not in
the process also tacitly approve of deceptive, faith destroying
teachings as well.
I share the love for the lost that you all have. But we want to
reach the world for Christ, not for any other "lord" - be it
personal fulfilment of purpose, new age enlightenment, or other
false gospels.
Joel Kluender
Interesting discussion. Some of you might be wondering what was meant by
the "Union Grove folks" comment by Dr. J.B. It is a conference of concerned
clergy meeting at Trinity Lutheran in Union Grove Wisconsin. The conference
is April 25th and 26th (yup, next Monday and Tuesday). The website for it
is www.issuesinwels.org
At first I was not going to attend this conference, but I kept hearing
subtle remarks by people, which may seem innocent enough, but actually have
the breath of pre-judgment condemning what these guys in Union Grove want to
accomplish. I AM NOT SAYING THAT DR. BRAUN MEANT THIS WITH HIS COMMENT!
Emails are a funny way of communication, because you miss 2/3rds of what a
person is saying by not hearing their tone and seeing their facial
expressions. (I guess we could all add these icons :-/ :-) :-( ;-] :-O but
I digress) I am not saying that Dr. Braun was hinting this, but I have
heard too many do just that. I think what the Union Grove guys are doing is
good. They have set this forum up in a very evangelical manor. They are
also looking for change in the Church - a change to stay faithful to God's
Great Commission. Isn't this what we all are looking for (Church and
Change)? This is why I decided to go, and encourage all of you to attend as
well. Let's be fair to those with different opinions, if we want those with
different opinions to be fair with us. ("Do unto others as . . .")
Michael Sullivan
I've been reading all the e-mails and decided to
throw in my 2 cents. The outside speakers who are
being invited are not coming to share their
theological views. They are being ask to come and
share ideas, strategies, trends, insights, etc. that
they have studied and would be helpful to ministry.
No one is forcing these presenters on anyone. If a
presentation may be something that would be a problem
for someone, they don't have to come. The opposition
of some should not take away what could be of great
benefit to others. There may be things presented that
might challenge our practice, thinking and
perspective. I believe that is a good thing even if
we don't accept what is said!
On August 8-10, the WELS World Mission is
inviting J. O. Terry from Southwestern Baptist
Theological Seminiary to the seminary for a
presentation on storyingtelling the Scripture. Other
non-WELS presenters have also been at the seminary
over the years and those in attendance have been
blessed by what they have learned. Did these non-WELS
presenters teach about justification by faith or other
such doctrines? No! Would a presentation on the
study of the Hebrew language by a Jewish professor be
helpful? I'm sure it would (for those interested in
such a topic)! Should we no longer allow this to
happen and thus keep learning strictly among
ourselves? Wouldn't it be naive to think we can only
learn from those with a WELS sticker on them?
Let's us never be so closed-minded that we think
we know everything and can learn from no one but one
of our own.
Phil Boileau [St. Mark, Depere, which is in fellowship with Willow Creek Community Church]
Phil,
I really don't think that anyone is suggesting or believes that we in WELS
we know everything and can learn from no one but one of our own. Rather, I
think there is simply a concern over whether we in WELS want to be a
platform for the promotion of someone who seems to have left Christianity
behind in a search for new-age relevance. And a legitimate question as to
whether of necessity his philosophy would taint any practical advice that he
might be presenting. (This reminds me of the old computer term "GIGO" which
stands for "garbage in - garbage out.")
The more we discuss this, the more I believe that there are 3 or 4 different
categories into which one could place potential invitees to conferences such
as that being hosted by Church and Change: (1) members of a WELS or
affiliated congregation; (2) members of other relatively confessional
Lutheran bodies such as the LCMS (this would include Gene Vieth or Harold
Senkbeil); (3) members of other Christian denominations and (4) a catchall
group that would include non-Christians, members of cults, new-agers, etc.
(I could place Dr. Sweet charitably in category 3, but really, based on what
I've read of his book, he properly should go into Category 4.)
Now, presumably when anyone is chosen to speak at a conference (whether they
are in category 1 or category 4 or in between) care should be taken to make
sure that the person was qualified to speak, etc., so even someone in
Category 1 would need be examined to see if they had appropriate expertise,
speaking ability, etc. Those in category 2 would need to be examined a bit
closer and care would have to be taken to avoid any implication of
fellowship. Those in categories 3 and 4 of necessity would need to be would
be examined even more carefully to ensure not only whether or not the
message that they were to be presenting was "kosher" and untainted by their
philosophy or world view, but also to see if the mere fact that they were
being asked to make a presentation would be in and of itself problematic.
Some people in categories 3 and 4 who otherwise might be "ok" from a content
perspective, might be sufficiently controversial or notorious so as to make
their appearance at a WELS-related conference problematic.
With best regards,
Harvey Dunn
Harvey,
You brought into the discussion "garbage in -
garbage out." This analogy does not allow for a
filter. It does not give credit to people's ability
to discern. I've heard many speakers throughout the
years and have treasured their pearls and thrown away
what is useless to me and my faith.) To some degree,
it is like throwing away a cd because one song out of
a dozen has lyrics in it that may be questionable. I
would avoid the song that gives me difficulty and be
enriched by what is inspirational to me in the other
songs.
I agree that we need to know what is be presented
so the presentation will have benefit to those in
attendance. The person presenting should also be
aware of our fellowship principles to avoid conflict.
I'm confident that those who are hosting any such
conference or presentation would do this.
Phil Boileau
Phil said,
"To some degree,it is like throwing away a cd because one song out of a dozen
has lyrics in it that may be questionable. I would avoid the song that gives me
difficulty and be enriched by what is inspirational to me in the other songs".
To follow your analogy, Leonard Sweet is the one song with questionable lyrics,
why are we going to allow him to fill our ears with what he has to say? It's
kind of hard to avoid him when he is speaking at the conference. So, let's avoid
him all together, ask him not to come, and focus on the other good
non-controversial Christian speakers that will be there with their varied gifts
and talents.
Jennifer Kluender
Phil,
Good points regarding my comment about the old computer term GIGO. The
problem of course with filters is that my filter may be better (or worse)
than yours and that while my filter may generally be good over exposure to
stuff that needs to be filtered may render it ineffective. And, we can't
forget that any of us with good filters have an obligation out of love to be
sensitive to those whose filters may not be as well developed. Finally,
there comes a point where there is so much chaff in the material being
presented that one has to question whether the grain or two of wheat
justifies the effort to engage the filter. The problem with Dr. Sweet is
that he is the keynote speaker. As such, one would expect his presentation
to be full of wheat and light on chaff. Thus, I also very much agree with
you that we all need to know what is be presented. But that should not be
the end of the analysis!
The other issue that we need to be cognizant of is that Church and Change
does not exist in a vacuum. We need to remember that what we do sends
messages to others within WELS - whether we want that to be the case or not.
So, we need to ask what message we are sending to those who don't attend the
conference by having someone like Dr. Sweet as the keynote presenter. And
what effect our providing him with a platform or even a resume entry that
might allow him to further the promulgation of his aberrant theology.
In the final analysis, I do believe that there are some people to whom we
should not provide a platform - simply because of their views or their
notoriety. Thus, I do believe that there are some people who, although
content of their presentation might otherwise be "ok" from a content
perspective, are sufficiently controversial or notorious so as to make their
appearance at a WELS-related conference problematic.
With best regards,
Harvey Dunn
Hi again,
I have three questions. I looked on the Church and Change Website about Dr.
Sweet being at the November conference, but I didn't find any information
about it. I must have not paid close attention when the announcement was
made. My questions are then as followed:
1) Who is he? (I know I can find this information out on my own, and I
will, but I would also like to hear the opinion of those who chose him to be
the speaker to tell me who he is in their own words. It helps me understand
the next question.)
2) Why was he chosen to speak at the November Church and Change conference?
3) What will he be talking about?
Just point me to an old email if these questions were answered before.
Michael Sullivan
I'm reading with interest the post by Michael Sullivan. Michael mentions a
post by Dr. J.B. about the "Union Grove Folks," then later he twice refers
to what Dr. Braun said. In fact, once he capitalized BRAUN. The J.B,. is
Dr. John Bauer; he is the executive director of CHARIS. My name is Mark
Braun. Although I was for a time the part time director of CHARIS and
although I occasionally contribute an article to the CHARIS journal, I did
not w