James Warble (Warble)
Intermediate Member
Username: Warble
Post Number: 279
Registered: 1-2013
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 8:14 pm:
Rev. Webber, is it OK for a confessional Lutheran pastor to attend an ELCA seminary for an STM? If not, why not and why is attending ILT any different?
David Jay Webber (Djw)
Advanced Member
Username: Djw
Post Number: 820
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 8:39 pm:
An STM degree is an academic degree, in which theology is learned as an academic discipline. It is not a professional degree, as is the MDiv, in which someone learns how to be a pastor. I think it is OK for a Confessional Lutheran pastor to study for an STM degree in any institution that he thinks will offer him a good academic education in the fields he wants to study. That might include an ELCA seminary. It might also include a seminary of the Episcopal Church, such as Nashotah House, where the current president of the ELS seminary got an STM degree. It might include seminaries or universities affiliated with a wide array of church bodies. Again, an STM degree is different from an MDiv degree. The range of possible options is much greater, since one's theological position as a pastor is not really seen by most people to be aligned with where one receives an STM, but rather with where one receives an MDiv. Or at least that's my opinion.
Paul Jecklin (Paul_jecklin)
Junior Member
Username: Paul_jecklin
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2015
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 8:49 pm:
Jack Kilcrease is a member of the ILT faculty. "He is LCMS. He's a good theologian."
Jay Webber received a diploma from ILT and . . .
Simon Reynolds (Simon)
Member
Username: Simon
Post Number: 183
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 9:07 pm:
It seems to me that Pastor Webber weighed the pros and cons of attending an institution which doesn't speak with one voice on the whole counsel of God and came to the conclusion that the benefits outweighed the downsides including inferences some individuals might draw regarding his theological "soundness" by attending ITL. It strikes me as an odd time to take him task for having gained a degree from ITL. What is the value of burdening his conscience at this juncture? Does the need to be right trump every other consideration? I believe I hear the sound of resounding gongs and clanging cymbals.
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 8682
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 9:19 pm:
Mr. Reynolds, to argue love against orthodoxy and making an orthodox confession is both loveless and heterodox.
Pastor Rolf David Preus
Simon Reynolds (Simon)
Member
Username: Simon
Post Number: 184
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 9:23 pm:
Pastor Preus, I rejoice in the knowledge that you are not a unionist and that you continually strive to make an orthodox confession in what you say from the pulpit and what you write. Thanks be to God!
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 8683
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 10:41 pm:
Thanks, Mr. Reynolds, for your kind and gracious words.
Pastor Rolf David Preus
Barb Nelson (Barbnelson)
Member
Username: Barbnelson
Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2012
Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 11:48 pm:
Isn't a pastor who is a part of the LCMS calling into question the unionism of an ILT degree like the pot calling the cauldron black?
Pastor Rolf David Preus (Rolf)
Senior Member
Username: Rolf
Post Number: 8684
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 12:45 am:
No, it is pointing out that the tired old accusation of unionism from the W/ELS to the LCMS is getting pretty hollow. I wouldn't attend an ELCA light institution that promotes women's ordination. I got my STM from CTS in Ft. Wayne.
Pastor Rolf David Preus
Daniel Gorman (Heinrich)
Senior Member
Username: Heinrich
Post Number: 3020
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 29, 2015 - 12:58 am:
Pr. Preus: "Church laws? What about God? You know, the One who says it is shameful for a woman to be a pastor? The ILT prepares women to be pastors. That's wrong."
Has ILT said that it prepares women to be pastors? If so, that is an example of a false teaching that must be condemned publicly by all Christians in word and in deed.
If, on the other hand, ILT simply offers its degree program to anyone who is academically qualified, that is not false teaching. ILT must not condemned for a liberal admission standard.
A woman who pursues an academic ministerial degree is not sinning unless her intent is to qualify herself for an office in the church or church auxiliary that involves teaching, usurping authority over men, or becoming a minister. It is not incumbent upon ILT to determine whether the woman's motivation is godly or devilish. ILT is not a church or church auxiliary.
***
GJ - When ILT came up repeatedly on Facebook, I began looking into it and posting about the school. That is the pain and pleasure of social media. The institutions and pastors want to use the leveraging power of browsers and big data, so they can become prominent on the Net with relatively little effort. I started blogs for a tiny college and got them to 1,000 views in short order - which astonished them - and 10,000 views shortly after. Later they complained that all the college pictures posted on the Net were from those blogs. I said, "Yes, of course. If you continue your own new blog, yours will do the same."
I have 4.25 million total views now and 13,600 posts, so I have heard the same observation about Lutheran graphics of all kinds.
The end result of social media (Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, blogs, websites) is to leave information and graphics for everyone to see. When Stetzer mocked Lutherans after getting two invitations to speak (LCMS and WELS), I posted the truth several times and he was dis-invited. WELS denied the invitation, of course, but I verified it with Stetzer's tweets, website, and posted calendar. Haha.
If those people who spend all their time posting on SpenerQuest would do some research about ILT, they would discover:
The graduate faculty is mostly ELCA trained and ELCA-oriented in their work. That makes sense because the founder spent a good deal of time teaching for ELCA colleges - Grand View, and Bethany in Lindsborg.
"The my (sic) two very different careers here in LinkedIn testify to the two paths I have walked. Interestingly, being an effective President of a Lutheran institution of higher learning demands one does two things: One must have both a theological/educational background and the business/financial one." Dennis Bielfeldt
The head of ILT fashions himself as a Confessional Lutheran and a CEO on his second LinkedIn account. "CEO and Provost: Responsible for Building the Institute of Lutheran Theology, overseeing all staff and all budgets. Specialties: Confessional Lutheran Theology
ILT conducts itself as a denominational seminary, not as a strictly academic venture. They boast about preparing women for ministry in ELCA, have chapel series, etc.
ILT "sends out" its graduates, including Jay Webber, sounding very ecclesiastical rather than purely academic. "September 29th will see the graduation of the first student from ILT to obtain its Master of Sacred Theology degree: Rev. David Jay Webber. He will be meeting with Rev. Swenson in Minneapolis to receive his diploma during that mid-week service." There is a close connection between ILT's work and various ministries and denominations, so ILT "sends out" to ELCA and the ELS. Notre Dame has its own seminary for its own Holy Cross priests, separate from its graduate program in theology. Notre Dame does not "send out" MAs and PhDs.
ILT is quite the ecclesiastical organization in training for pan-denominational work in the cities and foreign missions. "But, we need your help. We thank the Lutheran Church of the Master Foundation in Omaha, Nebraska for its gift to help us in the education of immigrant and international pastors through its Elijah Project Ministry Certificate Program. If you believe God is calling you to do the same, please contact us. We are moving towards our goal of $75,000 to $100,000 this year to help our Educational Ministries reach out both in North America and around the world."
ILT affirms and promotes women's ordination and usurping male authority while offering chapel services. See below. In eight years of study at Yale and Notre Dame, I never attended a chapel service for the program, because none existed. Graduation was not a "service" as described by ILT, but a ceremony.
Pastor Becky Hand, an M.Div. Graduate of the Institute of Lutheran Theology delivered the sermon on Genesis 1:1 in TX 10-4-15.
About Us
We have students, staff, faculty and friends within various church bodies including Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC), the Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations (CALC), the Augsburg Lutheran Churches (ALC), the North American Lutheran Church (NALC), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the Association of Free Lutheran Churches (AFLC) and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS). All are welcome who affirm the centrality of the Cross of Jesus Christ, the authority of the Holy Scriptures, and the truth of the Lutheran Confessions as a faithful explication of Scripture.
ELCA-Episcopal leaders in North America
celebrated their oneness in apostasy.
One of these is a man.