Theater trial blog: Day 21
Janet Oravetz, KUSA
5:58 p.m. MDT May 29, 2015
(Photo: Janet Oravetz)
5:05 p.m.Court is in recess for the weekend.
3:47 p.m. Court is back in session. The prosecution continues playing the third segment of Holmes' interview with Dr. Reid.
Dr. Reid: What was the process that led to you buying the taser and the knife.
Holmes: "I rationalized it as self-defense."
Dr. Reid: Did you think about the purchase very long?
Holmes: "No. It was all the sudden."
Holmes says he chose a taser that looked like a cellphone from Amazon.
Dr. Reid asks him about the self-defense. Holmes says he felt he would be attacked, by "thugs". When asked what they do, he says "they beat me up."
Dr. Reid asks how they do that.
Holmes says "just with their fists" and they take all his money.
Holmes says he feels safe with the knife and taser. He says he practiced flipping out the folding knife. He also tested the taser twice. He says he pressed the button and saw the electric charge. It was a "contact" taser with two little prongs and not one that shoots out a wire.
Holmes is asked if anyone in high school picked on him. He says no.
Holmes says part of the reason he purchased the knife and taser was because Hillary ( a classmate) had someone slash the screen at her place. Even though the incident was at her place, Holmes purchased the weapons for his own protection and not hers.
Holmes says he purchased tear gas in May or June. When he's asked what his thoughts were, Holmes says he's not sure when buying the weapons changed from being "defensive" to "offensive."
Dr. Reid: Do you recall roughly what the next things you bought were?
Holmes: "I think I bought the handgun."
Dr. Reid: What kind of handgun?
Holmes: The Glock 22, 40 caliber. Holmes tried to buy it online because it's cheaper, but had trouble due to firearm transfer laws. Holmes says he bought the weapon at Gander Mountain.
Holmes say he chose that weapon because it has less recoil and is more accurate than some other types of handguns. Holmes says he bought it for self-defense, but ended up using it for "other purposes"
Dr. Reid asked him about a fantasy where he could use the weapon.
Holmes said "committing mass murder." He said he didn't have a specific crowd in mind at the time. He says the crowd was "just going about their business."
Dr. Reid asks what was going through his mind. Holmes said he had a "mission to complete."
When asked to tell him more, Holmes tells Dr. Reid "It was something I had to do."
Holmes: "It was like I was obligated to do it."
Dr. Reid: In what way?
Holmes: "Just that there was no alternative."
Holmes says he would make his suicidal thoughts go away by having homicidal thoughts. Dr. Reid asks what the suicidal thoughts were. Holmes say he didn't have them because he transferred them to homicidal thoughts.
Holmes says he knows he was suicidal because he was "catatonic". He was still going to classes at that time. He says every opportunity he had he would stay in bed, except when he had to go to class.
When asked if he still communicated with friends, Holmes said "no I deleted their numbers." When asked why, he said, "I figured the friendship was over."
Holmes says he felt sad and depressed over the friendships. Holmes describes it as "mutual abandonment". He says his friends no longer invited him to activities because his ex-girlfriend didn't want to see him.
Holmes says he began playing video games more, up to 8 hours a day. He says he really liked video games and he used them as a way to escape.
Dr. Reid changes the subject
Dr. Reid asks where the mission is coming from?
Holmes says as "a coping mechanism." He says he just accepted it.
Dr. Reid: What did you think about just accepting such a serious mission?
Holmes: "I didn't think it was all that serious."
He says he didn't think about the consequences of completing the mission. When asked if he didn't think the mission was going to come to fruition. Holmes says I just didn't know. I was preparing.
Holmes says after purchasing the first few weapons, the thoughts just kept escalating. Dr. Reid asks if buying any of the weapons satisfied his urges. Holmes said a little bit and points out that he didn't buy all the weapons at one time. Holmes also points out that buying a shotgun is an escalation from buying a handgun.
Dr. Reid asks what Holmes bought next.
He responds, "I think it was a shotgun."
He says he bought it from Bass Pro Shop.
Dr. Reid asks if he had any problem buying the weapons. Holmes says there is something to keep mentally ill people from buying guns. He said you must have to be committed or something for that to be a problem. He was worried that one of his psychiatrists might have put something in the system about him that would have prevented him from buying the weapons. They had not, and he was allowed to buy them.
Dr. Reid asks what else he bought. Holmes says assault rifles, another handgun and body armor.
Dr. Reid asks if Holmes has a picture in his mind of what he would look like using the weapons. Holmes says yes, and that he took a picture of himself wearing the body armor and holding the weapons. He calls them "typical camera phone selfies."
Holmes says he thinks others would remember the pictures because they're unusual pictures. Dr. Reid asks what others would think of the person in the picture.
Holmes says "that they're familiar with weapons and body armor."
Dr. Reid: What else might they infer?
Holmes: "That I'm a killer I guess."
Dr. Reid tells Holmes he has the pictures with him. He asks Holmes what he infers from the pictures. He asks Holmes to describe the picture.
Holmes: "I'm wearing a bullet proof coat, with a tactical vest over it. I'm wearing possessed contact lenses."
Dr. Reid: Which weapon are you holding? What are the inferences you would make looking at the picture?
Holmes: "This is what a killer looks like."
Dr. Reid: At the time you took pictures was this what a killer looked like?
Holmes: "That is what I thought."
Dr. Reid: How does it feel to be that person when you took the picture?
Holmes: "I didn't feel anything. I was just taking a picture."
Dr. Reid: So you didn't feel anything?
Holmes: "Well right, except that I would be remembered by those pictures."
Dr. Reid asks if he took other pictures. Holmes says yes, over about a month's time. Holmes says he took pictures of the movie theater and its exits.
Dr. Reid shows Holmes a picture. He asks if he recognizes it. Holmes says yes. He says the person in the picture looks "scary" and like a "thug". It is a picture of Holmes. He has red hair in the picture and is clean-shaven.
Holmes says he had never dyed his hair before. Dr. Reid asks why he picked red. He says it would look better than green or blue. Holmes says he was wearing contacts for the picture that just happened to arrive on that day. The contacts are solid black. He says he could not see with them because they are not prescription which he normally wears. He says he ordered the contacts "because they looked cool." He was wearing them in the picture but not at the theater.
Holmes says he had his mind on the batman movie premiere so he was crunched for time at the end.
Dr. Reid shows Holmes more pictures. They show Holmes posed with incendiary devices as if he was pulling out the fuse. Looking at the pictures of himself, Holmes says "I'd want to stay away from him."
Dr. Reid says in the picture he appears "devilish" Holmes agrees.
Dr. Reid asks if the batman movie had any part in why he chose that theater. Holmes say the main reason was that he knew it was a blockbuster and that there would be "a lot of people there."
In one picture Holmes appears to have horns like a devil. Holmes doesn't believe he did that on purpose. In another picture he's sticking his tongue out. Dr. Reid asks why he's sticking it out, he says "I don't know, people stick out their tongue."
Holmes is shown another picture of a lot of weapons. He says the purpose was to show that he could purchase all those weapons without anyone knowing.
3:35 p.m. Court is in a short break. Segment 3 of Holmes' interview with Dr. Reid will continue after it ends.
3:17 p.m. Holmes says he watched a lot of "Big Bang Theory."
Dr. Reid asks why he likes that particular show and if it relates to his life. Holmes says he relates most to Leonard. He's a smart scientist who dates Penny.
Holmes talks about going to Dinosaur Ridge with his friends. He also says they toured the brewery that makes Fat Tire. He's asked about the most adventurous thing he did with his friends.
He says it was going to a bunch of different bars on St. Patrick's Day in 2012. He says at the time the relationship with his girlfriend was good.
Holmes says his ex-girlfriend broke up with him, they got back together and then he broke up with her. He says when they got back together he knew there was no future. They finally broke up for good around May of 2012. Holmes says he told her he wasn't happy and didn't want to do the relationship anymore.
When asked if he missed her after that breakup, Holmes says no. Holmes says after the breakup he stopped hanging out with his ex and their group of friends. He says his ex was the glue that held them all together so he stopped hanging out with all of them.
Following the breakup Holmes went on a hike with a girl named Hillary from his neuroscience class.
Dr. Reid asked why it was just one hike. Holmes responded that she wanted to do more, but that he said no.
When asked why, Holmes said "by that time I already had red hair."
Dr. Reid asked what that meant, and Holmes replied "I didn't want her to be the girlfriend of a murderer."
Dr. Reid asked Holmes if at that time he had made up his mind that he was a murderer. He said yes.
2:59 p.m.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes if there are any similarities or differences between him and his Aunt Betty.
He says neither of them talk very much.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes to speculate about why Aunt Betty was so quiet. He says she was shy.
Holmes says he is more like his dad. He says they both have a little bit of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) and are introverts.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes if he's a happy guy. He says not right now.
Holmes says he thinks his dad's father also had OCD. He says that's what his parents told him. He was young when both of his grandfathers passed away.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes how many good friends he had up until July 2012. Holmes says "about 5."
Dr. Reid asks Holmes about his parents' relationship and how and when they met. He says he believes they got married when his dad was in his late 30s. They met at a tennis match in college.
Holmes is asked if he ever thought about having a wife and a family. He says yes. He dreamed about having a good job to support them.
Holmes talks about his relationship with his ex-girlfriend. He says he saw the breakup coming because she was acting more distant. He says it made him feel "sad."
He says he had never felt that kind of sadness before. She was Holmes' first serious relationship. Holmes says the breakup was "debilitating" and he felt "morose." He says he watched more TV and listened to more music.
2:34 p.m. The third installment of the interview between Holmes and Dr. Reid takes place the next morning on July 31, 2014.
Before getting started with questions, Dr. Reid tests the pupils of Holmes' eyes with a flashlight to check of dilation. He says everything was normal.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes if there's anything he want to bring up. Holmes says no.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes when he was the most depressed he's ever been in his life. He says it was around the end of 2011 and early 2012.
He asks Holmes if he ever tried to kill himself.
Holmes says "para-suicide". Dr. Reid asks what that means, and Holmes says he didn't go through with it. In his early teens, Holmes say he tried to cut his wrists with cardboard. It was around the time when he and his family moved back to San Diego from Salinas.
Holmes says he felt ignored in the decision to go back to San Diego.
Holmes says he was in the back of the family van on the way back to San Diego when he tried to cut his wrist area with the cardboard. He says no one ever found out about it. He says it wasn't bloody, but he did break the skin a little bit.
He was asked if he did that a lot with pain, kept it inside. He said yes, and that he didn't feel the need to discuss it.
Dr. Reid asks him what kind of pain he's kept inside over the years. Even when pressed by the doctor, he says he doesn't recall any. Dr. Reid tries to draw them out, but Holmes consistently keeps to himself.
When asked if it would help to talk about his pain with others, Holmes said, "I suppose it couldn't hurt."
Holmes' parents at one point took him to see a therapist. Holmes says he just ended up not saying much. This was when Holmes was a teenager. Holmes says he does not know why his mother took them to family therapy sessions.
Holmes says the family sat on the couch together during therapy sessions. Holmes says he can't recall anything they talked about during the sessions. They saw the therapist about 10 times.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes if he had been a sharing person what he might have said. Holmes says he doesn't know. Dr. Reid makes several more attempts to get Holmes to explain why they attended family therapy.
Holmes finally admits he was "part of the reason", but only says that's because he's part of the family.
Dr. Reid asks about any history of severe mental illness within Holmes' extended family. Holmes says his mother's father had to be institutionalized several times. He doesn't know what type of mental illness he had.
Holmes also mentions that Aunt Betty, his dad's sister, has Schizophrenia. He says she has "delusions." He last saw her a couple of Thanksgivings ago, possibly 2011 or 2010.
2:32 p.m. Court is back in session. The third installment of the interview between Holmes and Dr. Reid is about 2 and a half hours.
2:15 p.m. Jury is released for a short break.
2:00 p.m. Dr. Reid says he believes Holmes hatred of mankind comments were more of an aversion to mankind and not an actual dislike.
Prosecutors ask Dr. Reid about Holmes' use of the term "intrusive thoughts". He says it's not unusual to him that he would use that term since he was a neuroscience major and had done extensive research about himself.
During the spring of 2012, Dr. Reid testifies that Holmes told him he was depressed. He says he asked Holmes to describe the symptoms. He says Holmes symptoms weren't consistent with significant depression which is disabling.
He says Holmes continued to go to class and his grades were good or a little bit better. He was going to the fitness center about twice a week. Dr. Reid says there was no indication that Holmes wasn't carrying on his usual life from February until June.
Dr. Reid says at first he thought Holmes seeing an FBI car at the Byers shooting range was a delusion, but Holmes was very clear that he saw an FBI logo on it.
1:50 p.m. The playing of the second interview session is over. Dr. Reid is back on the stand.
1:44 p.m. Dr. Lynn Fenton wrote the prescription for the wrong name. Holmes realized it when he went to pick it up at the pharmacy. Holmes sent her an email with a threatening "emoticon" in the subject line. The next time he went to her office for an appointment the door was locked. Holmes believed the door was locked because she feared he was going to punch her.
Dr. Feinstein had some type of sling on his arm. Holmes says he thought he was hiding something in there, like a "knife or something." When asked why, he said he didn't know. Dr. Reid asks him to speculate why, and he says "so he could be in control of the session."
Dr. Reid: "Do you think they had reason to be afraid?"
Holmes: "At the end, yea, I thought they were frightened."
When asked if that was logical he said, "I would say that's logical because I had already started getting weapons."
1:24 p.m. Dr. Reid: "How early in your life were you thinking you were mentally ill?
Holmes: "Middle school." Holmes said he used the term "broken brain."
Holmes said he wanted to know as much as possible. He did a bunch of online searches about the brain. He says he didn't know if it could be fixed. He thought all people's brains worked one way and his worked his way. He says he sought career options which could be related to that. It's one of the reasons he went into neuroscience.
He says there was no way to help him at that young age. (about 14) Holmes says he escaped through video games, schoolwork and sports.
Holmes says he wasn't aware of anyone who felt the same way he did. He says he's sure other kids felt the same way but he kept it private.
When he interviewed for grad school, a number of people said "he's a good bet for us". Holmes is asked if that is an accurate statement. He says yes and references his grades and GRE score. Holmes believe those comments were likely made before his interview while employees were reviewing his application. He thinks his awkwardness during interviews hurt him.
"Disdainful of others" was another phrase used to describe Holmes. He agrees that's accurate and says "he didn't see a purpose for people living."
Holmes says having or raising a family would give someone purpose. He says he was never outwardly aggressive and that he's more passive.
Holmes is also described as "flat or without affect". Holmes says that's accurate. He says to him, those terms mean without emotion.
Holmes is said to avoid answering tough and personal questions. He disagrees and says that he tries to respond.
Dr. Reid points out that his answers are often very short, and it seems to him he's avoiding going into further detail. Holmes says it's just his speech pattern.
"Paranoia" is the last thing Dr. Ried says was used to describe Holmes. Holmes says a "little". He says that applies to the time the time since he was arrested. It applies to the shooting as well.
When asked if it applied to the time prior to the shooting Holmes said "not severe paranoia or anything".
On the drive over to the shooting Holmes thought the FBI would stop him.
Dr. Reid : Do you think maybe you hoped they had you under surveillance
Holmes : "Yes, so they could have done the right thing."
Dr. Reid: "By do the right thing?"
Holmes : "Locked me away before I did it."
1:06 p.m. Holmes says he transferred his suicidal thoughts to homicidal thoughts.
Holmes is asked about how his concentration changed when he was depressed. He says he doesn't think it changed. He still did well in classes.
Holmes asked if he had thoughts about dying. He says "not me, but of someone else." He doesn't name anyone.
Holmes says he kept having an intrusive thought of "nuclear winter." He explains this is a large cloud after an atomic bomb goes off. He says it disintegrates everything. When asked if that includes him, he says no. He doesn't see any people.
Dr. Reid is listing things to Holmes that others have about him. They include "extremely bright" and "interesting".
Holmes says he doesn't know about the "extremely" part, but would agree with the bright part.
Another phrase to describe him, "awkward around others". Holmes said that was pretty accurate. Several people said he was "pretty much similar to other research grad students." Holmes agrees and says he did not stand out.
"Very angry" was another phrase used to describe Holmes. He doesn't agree, and suggests perhaps they interpreted his awkwardness for anger. Holmes says he never told anybody he was angry.
Holmes say he wrote "hatred of mankind in the notebook." He says he thinks it's just because he's different. "I figured I was kind of separate from mankind, so it felt different."
He says he hated being around mankind, because they make him feel uncomfortable. He reiterates that he was never angry.
"Very self-centered" was also used to describe Holmes.
He told Dr. Reid that was "very accurate." He views the world from his point of view. Holmes says his studious nature also made him self-centered. He says he studied hard because "he wanted to see why he was different."
"I was interested in the differences between normal people and people who are different."
Holmes clarifies to say "different" refers to mentally ill. He did think of himself as mentally ill "sometimes."
1:03 p.m. : Court is back in session. The remaining portion of the second interview segment is about 45 minutes. It will played and then questions will be asked of Dr. Reid.
11:58 a.m: Court is taking an hour lunch break. They plan to resume at 1 p.m.
Holmes is asked about his shyness.
He says he was very comfortable around family and close friends. He doesn't think they thought he was weird. Holmes is asked why strangers would think he's weird. He says because he acts different around different people.
Holmes is asked whether interactions with jail staff are uncomfortable. He says he doesn't have much interaction with them so it is not comfortable or uncomfortable. He says he's comfortable with his defense attorneys.
Dr. Reid: "What happens when people get frightened?"
Holmes: "There's a sympathetic response of fight or flight, so you'll either confront it or run away."
Holmes says he typically has the flight reaction and withdraws.
Dr. Reid : "Have you ever been in a physical fight?"
Holmes : "When I was a kid, little scruffs and stuff."
Holmes says 2 or 3 incidents involved physical contact, but more "wrestling" and not throwing punches. The last incident was when he was about 10 years old.
"There's a lot of verbal attackers in jail. I ignore and they stop."
Dr. Reid asks for an example. Holmes says sometimes people yell stuff at him when he's in his cell. They have never gotten to him physically. Holmes describes how he "freezes" around others. He can't think of anything to say, it's a mental block.
Holmes says he noticed he would "freeze" more often during graduate school. It was tough for him when he had to do lab presentations because he was "put on the spot." This typically happened in the larger group and not during one-on-one conversations. He would still freeze up sometimes even though he knew all the people in the group, who were his classmates. Holmes estimated he froze about 50% of the time and "felt lost."
Dr. Reid changes the subject.
Dr. Reid: "What was your favorite book?"
Holmes: "Of mice and Men", The characters were interesting."
Dr. Reid : "Any character you identified with?"
Holmes: "I think Lenny"
Dr. Reid : Tell me about Lenny
Holmes : "He crushed the mouse. And pulled on a girl's dress as she tried to get away."
Dr. Reid : "What were some other characteristics?"
Holmes : "I think he was schizophrenic. He saw a rabbit or something."
Dr. Reid : You understood all of that at that young age ( about 12)?
Holmes : "I just thought he was the most interesting character."
Dr. Reid tells Holmes that Lenny was a misunderstood character. Holmes says he doesn't remember that.
Dr. Reid : "Do you remember why George killed Lenny?"
Holmes : "Yes, Lenny had actually killed another person, I don't remember who. "
Dr. Reid: "Why was George the one that killed him?"
Holmes : "He was the one who was closest to him."
Dr. Reid changes subject
Dr. Reid : "Did you want to move back to San Diego when your family moved back there?"
Holmes : "Uh, I wanted to stay in Salinas."
Dr. Reid asked Holmes about a time when he moved back to San Diego and he was sitting in the closet reading. Dr. Reid says it's in the paperwork but can't remember the context. Holmes doesn't remember that either.
Holmes says he read the "Goosebumps" books as a child. He remembers they were scary.
Holmes says he used to think there were "nail ghosts" in his room when he was a child. He said the ghosts would make it so you can't sleep, because the ghosts would hammer nails into the wall. You had to sleep on the far side of the bed (away from the wall) to avoid being hit by the nails.
Holmes says he was also afraid of the dark as a child. He says his parents would let him sleep in their bed or reassure him that there were no monsters.
Dr. Reid asked Holmes when he "froze" as an adult if he ever saw the monsters from his childhood.
Holmes said no, but he would see violent images. They included saws and people getting their heads cut off. He says they would pop up randomly. He says this happened from about high school age. He says it's just kind of a floating saw, no one is holding it. The saw is not dangerous to him, but is to others.
Dr. Reid asks if the saw is his ally or a friend. Holmes says "I wouldn't say that."
Holmes says the saw is doing it on its own.
He's asked if the saw is a part of him. He says he doesn't know. Holmes says another image that popped into his head was "setting off a bunch of atomic bombs." He says he doesn't know why it's popping up.
Dr. Reid changes the subject.
Holmes talks about his first sexual experience. He says he and his girlfriend had sex 3 or 4 times a week. They started having sex about 2 months after dating. They were together for a total of 6 months.
Dr. Reid asks about documents say they says "Holmes was trying to keep it together" prior to the shooting. He asks Holmes what that means.
Holmes says he became more disorganized and that his mind was "kind of falling apart." He says this was after Christmas when he came back to graduate school. (early 2012)
Holmes says he was sick from mono and he was fatigued all the time. He says this lasted about 2 months. He also said, "I guess I was also really depressed. I broke up with my girlfriend."
Holmes said he didn't have his normal drive. It was hard to get up and do things. He was stuck in a rut. He believes the depression was separate from mono.
Dr. Reid asks Holmes about going online to research mental disease symptoms.
Holmes is asked whether he's optimistic or pessimistic.
Holmes said, "I generally have a pessimistic view." He says this is all the time.
He's asked if ever thought about hurting or killing himself. He says no. When asked if he thought about hurting or killing others, he said, "Yes. It generally transferred into homicidal thoughts."
10:40 a.m. : Holmes talks about losing the closeness with his family. He said when he returned home his mother felt he was doing anything and the he should get out there and go to work.
He did get a job working at pill coating factory which he talked about in the first interview. He says he saved the money he made. His parents did not make him pay rent.
Dr. Reid: "Have you been to a church service since high school?"
Holmes: "No."
Dr. Reid: "Do you have a personal spirituality?"
Holmes: "Yes. I believe God is everything."
Dr. Reid: "Can you talk more about that?"
Holmes: "He (God) is the collective sum of everything. Anything that you can think of, that is part of God."
Dr. Reid: "Does he pay attention to what happens on Earth?"
Holmes : "Well that would kind of mean he is paying attention to himself, because he is everything."
Dr. Reid: "If I were to ask, does he care what you do, what would your answer be?"
Holmes : "Yes and no."
Dr. Reid :"What would he care about?"
Holmes: " Just how the universe is working."
Dr. Reid :"Would he care about the shooting?"
Holmes : "Yes."
Dr. Reid : "In what way?"
Holmes: "Just that it's changing life to death."
Dr. Reid : "If we attribute human feelings, how might he (God) feel?"
Holmes: "He might care that people were dying."
Holmes is asked if shy and "being a loner" is an accurate description of him. He says yes.
"It's just that I prefer to be alone, " he said.
Dr. Reid: "Were there times when you isolated yourself?"
Holmes: "Yes. Lots of times."
He's asked to give examples. He says one time he was asked to go to a bar, but decided to stay home and watch TV, because he's not a "bar guy."
He lived in an apartment by himself in college because he preferred that. He says there was a lot more freedom with his own apartment to do what he wanted to do.
Holmes says he played video games. Some of them were online.
He says when he's around other people, he's kind of anxious. He says they expect you to say something. He likes to listen more.
When asked to described anxious, he says "fearful, fidgety, not wanting to be there."
He pictures himself standing in a room with people talking around him and he doesn't know what to say. It makes him uncomfortable. He feels embarrassed and that people are staring at him.
Dr. Reid: "What do you think they're thinking when you're kind of frozen like that?
Holmes: "Why isn't he talking?"
Dr. Reid: "What else are they thinking?"
Holmes: "That there's something weird about him."
Dr. Reid: "Do they say that?"
Holmes : "No. Not to me at least."
Holmes says he has walked into places and heard people talking about him. He talks about an incident at camp when other counselors were playing chess. He heard them make comments about him, but doesn't say what they were.
He ignored the comments, but says it made him feel "not so great." He says it made it feel like there was "something wrong with him."
"Before college, I thought I wasn't as social as other people," Holmes said.
10:37 a.m. Court is back in session. One juror is not feeling and needed some time. She believe she's ready to continue. The temperature in the courtroom was lowered to accommodate the ill juror.
10:07 a.m. A juror handed staff a note saying she needed a short break. Jury exits the courtroom for a brief break.
9:50 a.m. : The second taped interview begins being played in the courtroom. It takes place later in the day on the same day of the first interview.
Holmes talk about time he spent working with kids at an orphanage in Mexico during college.
He says it was advertised on campus. He says there were a lot of orphans and they seemed just like normal kids. He played soccer with them, played cards.
Dr. Reid : "How often would you do this?"
Holmes: "Once every 3 months."
Dr. Reid : "Can you picture any particular child that you worked with?"
Holmes: "No."
Dr. Reid: "Was there a particular child you liked to work with?"
Holmes: "No, I don't think so."
Holmes says once they brought a bunch of toys down. It was for Christmas.
Dr. Reid : "Did you get any feelings inside you when you saw the kids opening presents and enjoying it?"
Holmes: "No, not really."
Dr. Reid: "Any other times you can think of that you volunteered or did something nice for folks?"
Holmes : "I did some gardening for my church. I was in high school."
Dr. Reid: "Did the family go to church together?"
Holmes: "We used to, but then I quit going."
The first church they went to was Presbyterian, then they went to a Lutheran church and different protestant churches.
Holmes says church was big for his mom. She was an usher. He was never really into it. He attended Sunday school as a child. He says it was a relaxed atmosphere. They would read passages from the bible. He describes the experience as "indifferent."
Holmes is asked how hard it was to get him to church. He says they would bribe him with Taco Bell. It was pretty much every Sunday.
Holmes says he did not attend church at all when he returned from school and lived at home for about a year.
Dr. Reid: Thinking back to when you were a kid, how did your parents get along?
Holmes: "Very well. You could see love between them."
9:44 a.m.: Court resumes. Jury is not yet present. The judge explains his earlier ruling, that Dr. Reid should be allowed to talk about Holmes' parents concerns about his mental health. He says the statements are allowed to explain the basis for the expert's opinions. The second tape is 2 and half hours. The court decides to play the first hour and a half of the tape and then take a short break. They will take a shorter, slightly later lunch break.
9:20 a.m. There are technical difficulties with the audio for the second interview. Court is in 15 minute recess while they try to fix the problem.
9:11 a.m. Prosecutors ask Dr. Reid about the importance of interviewing Holmes' parents. They try to ask again if Holmes' parents ever expressed concern about his mental health (during a Christmas visit several months prior to the shooting) while talking with Dr. Reid over the phone. Councilors are asked to approach again.
After conferring at the bench prosecutors ask Dr. Reid whether Holmes' parents expressed concern that he had been sick in some way during a December 2011 visit. He says as I recall, yes. They talked about him being ill, in a tired way. It turned out be mononucleosis. (mono)
Dr. Reid is asked if they expressed any other concern. He says he does not recall anything else.
Prosecutors ask if there's anything in the first taped interview that impacted his opinion to determine Holmes' capacity to tell right from wrong. He says no, and that everything goes into the big picture.
The second taped interview is admitted. Dr. Reid steps down from the stand but will stay in the courtroom while the second video is played.
8:59 a.m. Prosecutors ask if Dr. Reid takes into account when he's talking with the suspect if he know he's facing the death penalty. He says he does.
Dr. Reid explains why he asks the defendant about his relationships. He testifies that people who are less mentally healthy typically have fewer relationships. Sometimes one's ability to form relationships are part of the criteria to diagnose mental illness.
Dr. Reid is asked about empathy. He says empathy is another characteristic of mental health. He says the inability to show empathy could indicate someone is less mentally healthy.
Prosecutors ask if he detected a sense of humor with Holmes. He says yes.
They point to an exchange where Dr. Reid asked Holmes if he had ever drank to excess.
Holmes said, "No."
Dr. Reid asked, "Really?"
Holmes responded quickly, "I'm Irish."
Dr. Reid testifies that Holmes does not move very much or show much expression during any of his interviews.
Prosecutors ask about a visit Holmes made to family during Christmas in December of 2011. Dr. Reid is asked if Holmes' parent ever expressed concern about his mental health during that visit. The defense objects saying it calls for hearsay. Councilors are asked to approach the bench. The objection is sustained.
8:56 a.m. : Prosecutors ask Dr. Reid if the date and time on the video interview is accurate. He says yes. Dr. Reid is asked about his interview style for forensic psychology. He says others have a more directive style, however most ask very open-ended questions to see where the interviewee takes things. Dr. Reid testifies that he does not do a structured interview style.
Dr. Reid explains what he means when he tells the defendant during the interview that he doesn't understand. He says sometimes he truly doesn't understand. Other times he says he's hoping to get the defendant to be more specific so that he does not have to interpret what he means.
Dr. Reid is asked why he asks the defendant to speculate during the interview. He says it's perfectly reasonable to ask them to think about something for a bit. Dr. Reid testifies about the hours of preparation leading up to the interview with the suspect. He says it helps him to corroborate the suspect's story and tell if he is consistent with what he's saying.
Prosecutors ask if he takes everything the defendant says at face value. The defense objects and asks to approach the bench.
8:42 a.m. : Court is in session. Dr. Reid who was on the stand Thursday is back on the stand to continue his testimony. He is reminded that he is still under oath.
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