Hi everyone! very recently discovered this site(via searching for old Umineko topics lol)and quite like how everyone in the threads i read was polite and thoughtful. being a BIG Anime/Visual Novel fan myself,i decided to join :)
This is my First Ever Playthrough Topic. Thought i'd make one as this is a very cerebral Visual Novel that i wanted to discuss+i didnt want to be spoiled by reading discussions about the whole thing. my thoughts and theories came from logically analyzing and trying to find the hidden clues in the story,given what i currently know. ofcourse many of the theories will be wrong,as great stories dont give you all the keys to solve them until the last few pages to make sure that you dont lose interest. i hope for intelligent and fun discussions about my thoughts with no spoilers :)
i started this topic a couple of weeks ago on another site,but thought it would be nice to have a version here too,considering the great userbase here(unlike"other places" ;). wanted to post it in the Umineko Board,but since that board is retired this"General Discussion"board seems the most fitting :)
i will copy the posts i already made this time as a "Compilation",to get you guys up to speed with my thoughts so far before i start posting normally. i will mention where i reached at the start of each post.all discussions and thoughts are welcome,but please dont spoil me beyond where i reached.
my posts so far:
"I Currently finished EP1+tea parties,and in EP2 reached until Beatrice's physical arrival and discussion with Kanon.
My Thoughts and analyses:
1- Kinzo Is lying to all and actually intends to kill/destroy Beatrice. i reached this conclusion soon after finishing EP1,because:
-Why did he put a strong magic repellant on his door if he actually wants to meet her this badly?
-Why did he put the epitaph in the first place?if he loves her that much,and he hates his family that much,why would he intentionally put something that might lead to his beloved being put to sleep for all eternity(AKA Killed)and for one of his hated family to gain everything?wouln't he prefer his beloved to win?
-why does he scream loudly EVERY.SINGLE.TIME he talks about his love for her?
-Why Didnt he destroy the mirror that was limiting her power?
I Believe the following are the answers:
-Because if she entered his library,she would notice what many of his books are for:Destroying witches.
-Because,since he knows the answer,he cant solve the riddle himself,but he hopes that someone,anyone,will do it and defeat her.
-because he wants her to hear him from outside his study,as a part of tricking her.
-Because he wants her to be weak.
also remember the comments from genji and nanjo about how he can do genius things that seem dumb to the lesser,uninformed,minds.
the witch's comment about how he"wants to put her in a cage for all eternity"may or may not be a clue. i dont think it is,since i fully believe she was fooled by his act.
2:seems to me like Beatrice is creating a"Groundhog day" scenario for battler,while at the same time having events happen a little differently(like how Maria met Beatrice and received the envelope). company is famous for doing multiple dimensions in their games,and i think that is the case here too.
3:i have two theories about Rosa conceiving Maria. i think one is correct.
A:Rosa intentionally broke up with the maria's father and refused marriage in order for her name to not be removed from the family registry and thus still get her share of the inheritance
B:Rosa was Raped(Possibly in the forest by some witch other than Beatrice,possibly not)and that is how maria was conceived,and her subconscious hates maria because of that,while the other part loves her because she is her daughter anyway.
4:The fact that someone is in cahoots with Beatrice and faked his own death is pretty clear,as the epitaph says that the 10 twilights wont begin until someone found the key. not sure who it is,though i am sure he isnt Krauss/Natsuhi,and i suspect Gohda the most.
5:reason Maria loves Beatrice is,at some point,Beatrice promised her that she is the "good witch" that will free her mother of the"evil witch"(rosa's anger bursts)and take them both to a place where no"evil witches"exist,where she will also meet her dad who loves her.
6:The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that.
7:If you will ask weather i am" team deny magic or team its magic",both at the same time. After all beatrice done her magic is undoubtful,but it is also undoubtful that whomever found the key is helping her
also,are the tea parties Canon?in the beginning it seemed to me like it was a"behind the scenes"thing where VAs talk about the game,but the end makes it seem canon. if it was canon then why didnt Kanon tell Battler about how he died fighting Beatrice,which means that she definitely exists?"
"another theory:the witch in the portrait is somewhat different from the witch we met. the one in the portrait gives an air of elegance,of high class, while the one we met is the exact opposite. not sure weather she is a relative or simply changed in personality for some reason,but they arent the same."
"reached the point where all the "adults"admit that beatrice is a witch.
-disappointed that kyrie did admit it too,as battler looked up to her and how she thinks a lot. i got a feeling somewhat like"if the teacher fell,what hope does the pupil have?". also,she and natsuhi are the only likeable"adults"in the entire cast lol. funny,considering that neither of them are actually ushiroymia. makes you think that blood has"unlikability"as one of its chromosomes lol >_>.
-a BIG new theory that ties to two older ones: there was a line in ep1 that i didnt fully believe. now it has been repeated in ep2. the line is"Kinzo said he had a mistress named beatrice,who died long ago and is searching for ways to revive her". i am now 90% convinced that this is what happened:
A- Kinzo truly loved the original beatrice,the classy,dignified one drown in the picture
B- Something major happened that caused Beatrice to change into her current evil form. that is how "Kinzo's beatrice died"
C- Kinzo both hates the current beatrice and loves the old one. that explains all my original questions in post 1,as he wants the current beatrice to be weak,both to reduce her danger and to make his chances of success in changing her to the old her(AKA"Reviving"the old her) through his ritual higher."
"Reached after the first"Closed Chapel Discussion duel"ends with Beatrice giving up.
-funnily enough,When the discussion started i immediately thought"there was a duplicate key". when that was refuted i immediately thought"someone took the key then returned it and sealed it again". took battler too long to reach that conclusion lol.
-the"Red Rule"Doesnt make sense. first,Who guarantees that beatrice will uphold it?she could easily put any lie in red. i dont get why battler accepted this rule. also,how can battler see the red words in the first place??! we can because we are reading the story,but for them they are just talking normally,and sound doesnt have colors. my only thought is that beatrice's sound is somewhat different when she says the red stuff. any thoughts guys?(note,i was later convinced by the points another guy made,so no objections on this one now)
-out of the 3 gold blocks,2 are fake. the one on top is the only real one.
- 2 very interesting lines from Nanjo and Kinzo:
Nanjo said"It isnt my turn this night"before leaving the kids gathering. his turn for what?the only way for this line to make sense is for him to know about the murder roulette. which means that he either is the one who"Found the key"or that he somehow knows of the events of the previous death cycle. thus,he suddenly became a strong suspect.
Kinzo Said"I will be prepared for you(beatrice),unlike last time". this means that he either remembers his death in the previous cycle(btw,i actually suspect that he didnt die that time,but that is just a suspicion with no reasoning behind it other than his body not being identifiable by anything other than the six fingers),or that he and beatrice did this before(Most likely with the"Old Beatrice",and for different reasons/consequences than this time)."
"reached after"Kanon"killed kumasawa and nanjo.
-WTF is up with the spider thing?is that some old japanese story that says"Demons fear spiders"or something?(later explained to me)
-Why did he only kill Nanjo and Kumasawa?logic would say to kill them all,yet he only did 3 strikes. this is VERY suspicious.
-so witches can somehow interact with both the dead and the living. interesting.i think this will become a major plot point later on.
-the glossary referred me to "Knox's Ten Commandments". however,i dont think they were that useful,for the very simple reason that there is no proof that this game adheres to them. for example,there is no"Dumb side kick"here,and battler had so many "groundless" intuitions that i find it hard to believe that all of them are false.also,beato's magic is undeniable,which completely contradicts rule 2. thus,i dont think umineko plays by Knox's rules."
"Reached until Kinzo awakes.
-hate the way battler is acting. i didnt expect him to give up that quickly. i know he will rebound,but it still annoys me. rosa has always been bollocks,so her acts dont surprise me.
-would have prefered to have more CG and have the death scenes be actually shown,instead of splaches of red on black. no kid will play this anyway,so why hide it?
-glad to see that some of my old theories are being proven true,like this one:
"The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that."
after recent events there is no doubt that the servants were magically summoned and turned into humans by kinzo's magic. they are of the same fabric as beatrice's goat servants,only difference is beato's servants are corrupted just like she is,while kinzo's arent.
-the order of events this time was missed up. the big servant got stabbed in the chest before Channon got stabbed in the head,and no one praised beatrice(unless we count battler's sobbing or something). this is very weird.
also,i am pondering something big about the actual relation of the epitaph to beato. that is for later though,as i want to form more thoughts about it first."
"Finished EP2+Both Tea Parties
-The ending sure confused me lol. it seems to delete my "Kinzo vs current beatrice"theory,but that theory has too much evidence behind it for me to simply give up on it. there must be some missing links that we still havent been told yet. maybe Kinzo is waiting for a chance to do something?maybe he has a plan?not sure.
-Battler was eaten yet returned to normal in the tea party. this indicates one of two things.Either
A:She can remake the bodies from their remains like she claims(doubtful) or
B:She can Induce Hallucinations that she chooses upon her victims. this one is more likely,but if the 1st tea party was a hallucination that rosa was having then how come battler appeared and challenged beato?he isnt a magician,so my only explanation is that Beato was inflicting a "Shared Hallucination"upon both of them to make Battler suffer more.
-the phrase on Kanon's "Missing"state that says"What isnt of this world is an illusion. illusions take the forms of things people fear" is quite interesting. this line could be a huge link,and it seems like it is talking about"Fake Kanon",but if we follow that line of thinking to the end we might reach that everything is a hallucination that battler is having and no one is really dying. i reject that option,because that would be the lamest ending possible. the writer of such a great story wouldnt stoop to the"it was all a dream"ending. so that line remains a question mark for now.
-the info about the"7 sisters of hell"makes me believe we will get far more personal with them later. interesting.
-loli tsundere sorceress?lol. guess she will be good comic relief. it is also pretty clear that she will fall for Battler XD. still,i like the ally sorceress. calm and composed always. just hope her"help"will be more than a few advices every time i lose lol. she will be interesting to watch."
Edit:First new thoughts. including it here since no one posted a reply yet lol.
"Reached Until The "mistress discussion".
-what is the name"Beatrice"?it cant be a last name,as the discussion was between friends. no honorifics were used,so no way that last names were used. it seems like"Beatrice"isnt a name but a title. a title that the person who the current"Beatrice"chooses as her(main)apprentice will receive when the current one dies,maybe like "Cesar"Or"Pharaoh". another,more likely,possibility is that,whatever your name was beforehand,it will be completely erased and your name WILL be beatrice if you are chosen as the successor and the current one dies. having that name basically signifies that you are"the one".
-The "previous Beatrice"seems like she was a truly great woman. that might change when we are shown more about here,so i will wait. what concerns me more though is how young"current beato"acted in the scene. there is a complete 180degree contrast between young pure hearted beato who only wanted to fix things and make the world a better place,and current sadistic destructive beato who LOVES the misery of people. this contrast fits nicely into my"Two Beatrices: Old,Good,Kinzo's,Beatrice and Current,evil,beatrice"theory,so that is good ;). on a side note,seems like,1000years ago,current beatrice was the young princess of some kingdom. interesting.
-i persume what is actually in the forest is a monument of some sort,possibly related to old beatrice."