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{{Drake|time=20:10, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=What of say, Ramuh? Should all his boss pages be moved to incorporate the Boss tag into the naming?
{{Drake|time=20:10, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=What of say, Ramuh? Should all his boss pages be moved to incorporate the Boss tag into the naming?
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As for Chaos, given that a lot of the FF12 summons exist across multiple Ivalician games, I think it would be better to move them from [[Chaos (Summon)]] to [[Chaos (Ivalice)]].}}
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As for Chaos, given that a lot of the FF12 summons exist across multiple Ivalician games, I think it would be better to move them from "Chaos (Summon)" to [[Chaos (Ivalice)]].}}
{{Bond_em7|time=20:46, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=So, then how do we distinguish between Chaos(Summon) and Chaos(Boss) or Chaos(Ivalice)? Are we going to have different pages for each summon if they're a boss as well, and have their boss info on their boss page, and their summon data their summon page? Are we going to do this for all summons, such as the ones in FF V who are bosses and summons? Sounds like a large can of worms, but if that's what we're going to do, let me know how I can help.}}
{{Bond_em7|time=20:46, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=So, then how do we distinguish between Chaos(Summon) and Chaos(Boss) or Chaos(Ivalice)? Are we going to have different pages for each summon if they're a boss as well, and have their boss info on their boss page, and their summon data their summon page? Are we going to do this for all summons, such as the ones in FF V who are bosses and summons? Sounds like a large can of worms, but if that's what we're going to do, let me know how I can help.}}
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{{Drake|time=20:51, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text="Chaos(Summon) and Chaos(Boss) or Chaos(Ivalice)" - no, I'm saying we move [[Chaos (Summon)]] ''to'' [[Chaos (Ivalice)]], ><. As for "Chaos (Boss)" no such page with that exact tag would or should ever exist, but I get what you mean and that's precisely what this discussion is to determine isn't it?}}
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{{Drake|time=20:51, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text="Chaos(Summon) and Chaos(Boss) or Chaos(Ivalice)" - no, I'm saying we move "Chaos (Summon)" ''to'' [[Chaos (Ivalice)]], ><. As for "Chaos (Boss)" no such page with that exact tag would or should ever exist, but I get what you mean and that's precisely what this discussion is to determine isn't it?}}
{{KelTalk|time=[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] 20:57, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=I think it would only be confusing to move the FFXII summons to (Ivalice), as in FFT, the FFXII summons are bosses... So if it says Zalera (Ivalice) you might think it means the boss and not the summon.}}
{{KelTalk|time=[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] 20:57, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=I think it would only be confusing to move the FFXII summons to (Ivalice), as in FFT, the FFXII summons are bosses... So if it says Zalera (Ivalice) you might think it means the boss and not the summon.}}
{{Drake|time=21:00, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=Except there ''is'' no [[Zalera (Ivalice)]]. The reason I'm thinking the move would be better is precisely due to the Tactics pages - look at the [[Zalera]] disambig for example. Makes more sense to me to group all the Ivalice appearances under the same tag.}}
{{Drake|time=21:00, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=Except there ''is'' no [[Zalera (Ivalice)]]. The reason I'm thinking the move would be better is precisely due to the Tactics pages - look at the [[Zalera]] disambig for example. Makes more sense to me to group all the Ivalice appearances under the same tag.}}
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{{Bond_em7|time=21:01, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=So, we currently have [[Chaos (Final Fantasy XII)]] which is the boss, and doesn't include the word "boss" in the title, and [[Chaos (Summon)]] which has the summon data. So if we move the summon page to Ivalice, should the XII page also include boss in the title? I guess my question is this: We currently have a boss page and a summon page. How many Chaos pages should we have, and what should they be named? I'm not asking you specificall Drake, just in general. My thoughts are a [[Chaos (Summon)]] or [[Chaos (Ivalice)]] page for the summon data and a [[Chaos (Final Fantasy XII Boss)]] or [[Chaos (Boss)]] for the boss data, the issue being how many freaking Chaos bosses there are in the FF series. Anyone else have any thought?}}
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{{Bond_em7|time=21:01, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=So, we currently have [[Chaos (Final Fantasy XII)]] which is the boss, and doesn't include the word "boss" in the title, and "Chaos (Summon)" which has the summon data. So if we move the summon page to Ivalice, should the XII page also include boss in the title? I guess my question is this: We currently have a boss page and a summon page. How many Chaos pages should we have, and what should they be named? I'm not asking you specificall Drake, just in general. My thoughts are a "Chaos (Summon)" or [[Chaos (Ivalice)]] page for the summon data and a "Chaos (Final Fantasy XII Boss)" or [[Chaos (Boss)]] for the boss data, the issue being how many freaking Chaos bosses there are in the FF series. Anyone else have any thought?}}
{{Drake|time=21:04, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=No, there shouldn't be a single boss page for Chaos, or any boss. There was a discussion I found last night on a talk page about this, can't find it now but it was about that exact topic. The result was, and I agree, that different game = different page. So we wouldn't have [[Chaos (Boss)]], we'd have what we have now with his battle information on separate pages. It's just a matter of what tag to use for them.}}
{{Drake|time=21:04, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=No, there shouldn't be a single boss page for Chaos, or any boss. There was a discussion I found last night on a talk page about this, can't find it now but it was about that exact topic. The result was, and I agree, that different game = different page. So we wouldn't have [[Chaos (Boss)]], we'd have what we have now with his battle information on separate pages. It's just a matter of what tag to use for them.}}
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{{Bond_em7|time=21:08, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=...and I agree since that would cause a lot of work, and just be confusing. ...but how about [[Chaos (Final Fantasy XII Boss)]] for the boss page? I haven't edited enough to know the answer to this, but do we normally include the word "Boss" in the page title, or would we have top change every boss page to include this? Do we just normally have the bosses name, and the game title? ...and if that's how we have it, SHOULD we change them to include the word "boss" in them?}}
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{{Bond_em7|time=21:08, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=...and I agree since that would cause a lot of work, and just be confusing. ...but how about "Chaos (Final Fantasy XII Boss)" for the boss page? I haven't edited enough to know the answer to this, but do we normally include the word "Boss" in the page title, or would we have top change every boss page to include this? Do we just normally have the bosses name, and the game title? ...and if that's how we have it, SHOULD we change them to include the word "boss" in them?}}
{{KelTalk|time=[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] 21:11, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=I think the principle so far has been that tags are a nuisance and the shorter the tag the better, so bosses usually don't have "Boss" in the tag, just the game.}}
{{KelTalk|time=[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] 21:11, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=I think the principle so far has been that tags are a nuisance and the shorter the tag the better, so bosses usually don't have "Boss" in the tag, just the game.}}
{{SilverCrono|time=21:12, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=No, no, a thousand times '''no''' to the Chaos (Ivalice) thing. What if it needs a page from FFV or VII? We don't have explicit terms for those worlds. We can't use fan terms like Odin (Gaia). In fact, the only world I can think of with an explicit term is Ivalice. That won't work. But Jeppo pretty much said what I was gonna say, except for all these f*cking edit conflicts.}}
{{SilverCrono|time=21:12, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=No, no, a thousand times '''no''' to the Chaos (Ivalice) thing. What if it needs a page from FFV or VII? We don't have explicit terms for those worlds. We can't use fan terms like Odin (Gaia). In fact, the only world I can think of with an explicit term is Ivalice. That won't work. But Jeppo pretty much said what I was gonna say, except for all these f*cking edit conflicts.}}
{{KelTalk|time=[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] 21:14, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=Boss pages seem to be made the same as enemy pages. Malboro (Final Fantasy VII) not (Final Fantasy VII Enemy). Boss is only added if further distinction is needed, like if Malboro was ''also'' a boss.}}
{{KelTalk|time=[[User:Keltainentoukokuu|Keltainentoukokuu]] 21:14, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text=Boss pages seem to be made the same as enemy pages. Malboro (Final Fantasy VII) not (Final Fantasy VII Enemy). Boss is only added if further distinction is needed, like if Malboro was ''also'' a boss.}}
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{{Jeppotalk|21:28, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|The nearest example to "Boss" is "Enemy". When we have a parent page for an enemy (say [[Goblin]]), The enemy pages don't use the "enemy" tag. They just use the tag of the specific game. For example [[Goblin (Final Fantasy)]], [[Goblin (Final Fantasy II)]], [[Goblin (Final Fantasy Tactics)]] and so on. Let's use the same logic for bosses. I'll use Chaos as an example.
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{{Jeppotalk|21:28, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|The nearest example to "Boss" is "Enemy". When we have a parent page for an enemy (say [[Goblin]]), The enemy pages don't use the "enemy" tag. They just use the tag of the specific game. For example [[Goblin (Final Fantasy)]], [[Goblin (Final Fantasy II)]], [[Goblin (Tactics)]] and so on. Let's use the same logic for bosses. I'll use Chaos as an example.
*[[Chaos]] - disambig
*[[Chaos]] - disambig
**[[Chaos (Final Fantasy)]] - parent character page for the Chaos of Final Fantasy
**[[Chaos (Final Fantasy)]] - parent character page for the Chaos of Final Fantasy
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**[[Chaos (Final Fantasy VII)]] - for Vincent's transformation. It is technically a character page, so if it was a boss as well, that article would be called "Chaos (Final Fantasy VII Boss)"
**[[Chaos (Final Fantasy VII)]] - for Vincent's transformation. It is technically a character page, so if it was a boss as well, that article would be called "Chaos (Final Fantasy VII Boss)"
**[[Chaos (Song)]] - for the song called Chaos
**[[Chaos (Song)]] - for the song called Chaos
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**[[Chaos (Summon)]] - parent summon page
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**"Chaos (Summon)" - parent summon page
**[[Chaos (Final Fantasy XII)]] - boss page for Final Fantasy XII. In this case, there is no "character" page for the Final Fantasy XII version of Chaos, only a general "Summon" page for Chaos. Therefore the "Final Fantasy XII" tag hasn't been used yet, so "Final Fantasy XII" can be used without the "Boss" tag.
**[[Chaos (Final Fantasy XII)]] - boss page for Final Fantasy XII. In this case, there is no "character" page for the Final Fantasy XII version of Chaos, only a general "Summon" page for Chaos. Therefore the "Final Fantasy XII" tag hasn't been used yet, so "Final Fantasy XII" can be used without the "Boss" tag.
Hopefully that makes sense.|Edit Conflict}}
Hopefully that makes sense.|Edit Conflict}}
{{Drake|time=21:30, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text="What if it needs a page from FFV or VII?" - but Ivalice is different Crono, it's the only world/universe/whatever to span multiple games and continuities. Like say, [[Minerva (Final Fantasy VII)]] - as was brought up on the talk page there it has that tag because it's from the Compilation. See also [[Biggs and Wedge (Final Fantasy VII)]]. Ivalice is much the same way to me. The specifics of Zalera vary from game to game, but in every game it is some variation of the same creature in the same universe.}}
{{Drake|time=21:30, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text="What if it needs a page from FFV or VII?" - but Ivalice is different Crono, it's the only world/universe/whatever to span multiple games and continuities. Like say, [[Minerva (Final Fantasy VII)]] - as was brought up on the talk page there it has that tag because it's from the Compilation. See also [[Biggs and Wedge (Final Fantasy VII)]]. Ivalice is much the same way to me. The specifics of Zalera vary from game to game, but in every game it is some variation of the same creature in the same universe.}}
{{8bit|time=21:40, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text= I think that despite the recurring nature of many of these entities in Ivalice, Jeppo's logic still holds. Chaos, Adrammelech, Zalera - their general appearances as summons throughout Ivalice are covered by the (Summon) tag. There is not enough material to constitute a character article for these entities, so the Lucavi Zalera is covered by [[Zalera (Tactics)]], while the Scion Zalera is covered by [[Zalera (Final Fantasy XII)]]. There is no need to append "Boss" to these tags as no other page would take the place of the normal (Final Fantasy Tactics) or (Final Fantasy XII) tags.}}
{{8bit|time=21:40, January 5, 2011 (UTC)|text= I think that despite the recurring nature of many of these entities in Ivalice, Jeppo's logic still holds. Chaos, Adrammelech, Zalera - their general appearances as summons throughout Ivalice are covered by the (Summon) tag. There is not enough material to constitute a character article for these entities, so the Lucavi Zalera is covered by [[Zalera (Tactics)]], while the Scion Zalera is covered by [[Zalera (Final Fantasy XII)]]. There is no need to append "Boss" to these tags as no other page would take the place of the normal (Final Fantasy Tactics) or (Final Fantasy XII) tags.}}
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{{BlueGoobbue|What if boss pages were subpages of the relevant character articles? Note that on a page like [[Cloud of Darkness]] we have a link to [[Cloud of Darkness (Boss)]], in which the first words are a link back to the character article, and [[Cloud of Darkness/Dissidia]], in which a return link appears automatically beneath the title. Why have two different implementations for sub-articles of this nature? If consistency is a concern, would it not be more consistent to have [[Cloud of Darkness/Boss]]? It would standardize the style of return links if nothing else.
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{{BlueGoobbue|What if boss pages were subpages of the relevant character articles? Note that on a page like [[Cloud of Darkness]] we have a link to [[Cloud of Darkness (Boss)]], in which the first words are a link back to the character article, and [[Cloud of Darkness/Dissidia]], in which a return link appears automatically beneath the title. Why have two different implementations for sub-articles of this nature? If consistency is a concern, would it not be more consistent to have "Cloud of Darkness/Boss"? It would standardize the style of return links if nothing else.
Though some work would be involved, the boss tag could be abandoned entirely in favor of subpages. We'd simply have "Bad Guy (Game)" in many cases and "Bad Guy (Game)/Boss" where required.|21:59, January 5, 2011 (UTC)}}
Though some work would be involved, the boss tag could be abandoned entirely in favor of subpages. We'd simply have "Bad Guy (Game)" in many cases and "Bad Guy (Game)/Boss" where required.|21:59, January 5, 2011 (UTC)}}