ASEAN
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Revision as of 07:01, 30 April 2014
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'''Result: Deleted'''. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 03:42, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
'''Result: Deleted'''. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 03:42, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
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===[[ASEAN]]===
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ASEAN is an economic forum for south east Asia. It is not a region in any practical sense and there are no travel considerations at all between ASEAN members, nor will there likely be in the foreseeable future.
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* '''Delete''' [[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]] ([[User talk:Andrewssi2|talk]]) 05:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Redirect to [[Southeast Asia]]'''. That is the intuitive solution, and even when Papua New Guinea joins, it is still the Association of ''Southeast Asian'' Nations. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 05:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Redirect''' to [[Southeast Asia]] per [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan]]'s argument. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 08:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
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: '''Keep'''. See previous discussion both on the article talk page and at [[Wikivoyage_talk:What_is_an_article%3F#Index_articles.3F]].
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: It does affect travel. The open skies aspect already has large effects on the cheap flights; SE Asia is one of the best areas on Earth for those.
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: The one-visa travel area like Schengen is coming; see [http://www.aseanvisa.com/ ASEAN Single Visa] and [http://www.wttc.org/research/policy-research/visa-facilitation/ The Impact of Visa Facilitation]. All but Myanmar already have visa-free travel for each other's citizens & Myanmar is expected to complete the process this year. They are working on a common visa for outsiders. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 12:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
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:* The one-visa travel area is not coming. It is a very long term aspiration at best. [[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]] ([[User talk:Andrewssi2|talk]]) 00:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Merge''' and '''redirect''' to [[Southeast Asia]]. As discussed there, any effect on flight prices is far behind the scenes like many other economic organizations for which we do not have an article, and with regard to visas, even if there were a currently active program, we would cover it at [[Southeast Asia]], just as the Schengen Agreement is covered in the Europe article instead of a separate article. This is a merely economic organization that is barely tangential to our scope and anything we might need to say about it can be covered succinctly at [[Southeast Asia#Understand]]. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] ([[User talk:Texugo|talk]]) 12:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Comment''' I'm still not certain that a redirect makes sense. Yes, the organization deals with Southeast Asia, but when we think about redirects, I think we also need to think about them from the standpoint of someone who types this into a search engine. For ASEAN, I see two scenarios:
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1. The user is looking up information about the Association itself. That would be suited to a Wikipedia search and is outside of our scope. As such, a redirect to Southeast Asia would be a waste of the user's time.
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2. The user is actually looking up information about ASEAN's affects on travel. In this case, we really need to make sure that our Southeast Asia article covers it sufficiently to warrant a redirect and I would suggest if we take [[User:Texugo|Texugo]]'s suggestion, the merge go directly to the Understand section (or to the ASEAN subheading if it had its own). Otherwise we run into the same issue as #1. We will annoy users by providing a redirect that does NOT actually have information (or satisfactory information) about the search topic. It'd be like redirecting [[NRA]] to [[United States]] or [[Songhai Empire]] to [[West Africa]]. Deceptive and aggravating for the user. [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]] ([[User talk:ChubbyWimbus|talk]]) 02:41, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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::ASEAN is also a region. When I was in Malaysia, politicians and the media frequently talked about the ASEAN nations. Ignoring the possibility that someone on a travel website is searching for ASEAN in order to look at coverage of constituent nations (and, therefore, Southeast Asia) is kind of like assuming someone here who searches for the EU is looking for detailed coverage of EU politics or economics, rather than European nations that are EU members. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 03:07, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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:::I was also considering those who might find us from search engines, because I'd say most people are not searching for travel info when they search for ASEAN in actuality. ASEAN is a regional association, but it's not a region itself. The EU is likewise not a region, nor the African Union. Someone might go to Southeast Asia, but they won't go to ASEAN. Point 1 aside, Point 2 is really where we are now, I think. [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]] ([[User talk:ChubbyWimbus|talk]]) 03:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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::::Point 2: I would be happy to see an ASEAN section in [[South East Asia]] itself. Technicalities around PNG not really belonging to South East Asia are somewhat moot considering that ASEAN has no travel implications yet. [[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]] ([[User talk:Andrewssi2|talk]]) 03:37, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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:::::There is indeed an ASEAN region, as perceived as I recall in the region itself; however, that region is Southeast Asia. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 03:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Weak Keep''' ASEAN is a region, and it certainly does have travel implications. One ASEAN citizen can travel to other ASEAN countries without a visa, and for countries who are often not granted visa free travel, I see that as significant. We have an article for [[European_Union]], so I really don't see the difference in this regard. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 00:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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::The EU has so many travel implications for travel within the EU or from outside the EU to EU countries; by contrast, did you just mention the only travel-relevant distinction of ASEAN in a single sentence - that citizens of ASEAN countries can travel between them without visas? If so, in what way does that necessitate an entire article? Do you also propose for their to be articles about the Organization of American States and the Arab League? Where would you draw the line? [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 01:42, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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::: Is there really any other consequence of an EU country other than visa free travel between them for residents of the region. I can't see a substantial difference between them? If the travel information relevant to ASEAN can be embedded in another article and redirected to, then that's fine. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 01:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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::::They have freedom to live and work in every other EU country, just for starters. Try doing that if you're an Indonesian and want to move to Malaysia. [[User:Ikan Kekek|Ikan Kekek]] ([[User talk:Ikan Kekek|talk]]) 02:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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::::: But that is out of scope for a travel guide, yes? Travel wise, I see no significant difference, i.e freedom of travel without a visa. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 03:01, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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====Crunch time====
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Okay. The 14-day discussion period was over long ago. At this point, we clearly have a consensus ''not'' to delete the article, but there's no consensus as to whether to merge and redirect it or to keep it as is. As a concession to [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]]' skepticism and [[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]]'s outstanding delete vote, I'd like to tip the scale in favor of merging and redirecting this article to [[Southeast Asia]]. If anyone has any objections, let's hear them now; otherwise in a short time I'm going to proceed with merging and redirecting. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 19:56, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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:Sorry, I agree with the redirect. Should have made that clear earlier. --[[User:Andrewssi2|Andrewssi2]] ([[User talk:Andrewssi2|talk]]) 23:27, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
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::As long as the information that someone using ASEAN as a travel search would find useful is written in the article, I support the redirect, as well. For me, the important part is to make sure that someone doesn't create the redirect before adding the relevant information to the article. I also think the redirect should be made to the specific subheading where that information is located. [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]] ([[User talk:ChubbyWimbus|talk]]) 05:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
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::: I agree with [[User:ChubbyWimbus|ChubbyWimbus]], but I still think the article does little harm as short article, and its information would probably only be relevant to those seeking it out. --[[User:Inas|Inas]] ([[User talk:Inas|talk]]) 06:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
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'''Result: Merged and redirected''' to [[Southeast Asia#Get in]]. -- [[User:AndreCarrotflower|AndreCarrotflower]] ([[User talk:AndreCarrotflower|talk]]) 07:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)