Reverted edits by EoGuy (talk | block) to last version by 31dot
← Older revision
Revision as of 22:01, August 27, 2015
Line 20:
Line 20:
== Deletion rationale ==
== Deletion rationale ==
−
Cross dressing isn't mentioned in any episode. Skants have never been shown or mentioned to be a chiefly female uniform. Ferengi women don't wear clothes, so Quark's "effeminate" clothing in {{e|Profit and Lace}} could not be cross dressing. [[Pel]]'s, [[Ishka]]'s, and "[[Lumba]]'s" clothe-wearing may constitute cross dressing, however, it was not identified as such and is stretching the definition some.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 22:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
+
Crossdressing isn't mentioned in any episode. Skants have never been shown or mentioned to be a chiefly female uniform. Ferengi women don't wear clothes, so Quark's "effeminite" clothing in {{e|Profit and Lace}} could not be crossdressing. [[Pel]]'s, [[Ishka]]'s, and "[[Lumba]]'s" clothe-wearing may constitute crossdressing, however, it was not identified as such and is stretching the definition some.--[[User:Tim Thomason|Tim Thomason]] 22:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
== Discussion ==
== Discussion ==
−
*'''Delete'''. I believe Skants were described as a 'unisex' outfit, neither male or female, thus wearing one cannot be cross dressing. Certainly there is nothing to base any assertion about the legality of cross dressing on. The passage about Pel is not really encyclopedia-like. [[User:31dot|31dot]] 01:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
+
*'''Delete'''. I believe Skants were described as a 'unisex' outfit, neither male or female, thus wearing one cannot be crossdressing. Certainly there is nothing to base any assertion about the legality of crossdressing on. The passage about Pel is not really encyclopedia-like. [[User:31dot|31dot]] 01:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Created by a sock puppet anyways. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] <sup>[[User Talk:OuroborosCobra|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]</sup> 01:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Created by a sock puppet anyways. --[[User:OuroborosCobra|OuroborosCobra]] <sup>[[User Talk:OuroborosCobra|<span style="color:#00FF00;">talk</span>]]</sup> 01:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
−
*'''Strong Keep''', but delete the reference to "legality" and "Starfleet's position on the matter". Possibly rename to, or at least redirect from, [[Transvestism]]. While I'll admit, it's not a subject of any clear canonical importance to the Federation, the Ferengi cases are pretty irrefutable examples of cross dressing. What's more, if this database be one supposedly written from the perspective of editors at the end of ''Star Trek'' time, then we cannot ignore the impact of transvestism on the development of Ferengi culture. The rationale that "Ferengi women don't wear clothes, so Quark's 'effeminate' clothing in {{e|Profit and Lace}} could not be cross dressing" belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the episode. The whole point of the story is that Quark's cross dressing ultimately gives Ferengi women the right to wear clothes. By proving Zek right to the ultra-conservative Slug-O-Cola manufacturer — through "[[Lumba]]" — the recently-deposed Grand Nagus gets his post back, and with it, confirms the policy for which he'd been thrown out of office. Quark's cross dressing ultimately serves as the Ferengi equivalent of "bra-burning" on Earth. Cross dressing is confirmed in the episode, as it was in {{e|Rules of Acquisition}}, to be an important element in the freeing of Ferengi women from the shackles of naked, profitless life. (Yeah, yeah, I know:. All you haters of "Profit and Lace" and "Ferengi episodes" of DS9 just rolled your collective eyeballs.) '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 15:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
+
*'''Strong Keep''', but delete the reference to "legality" and "Starfleet's position on the matter". Possibly rename to, or at least redirect from, [[Transvestism]]. While I'll admit, it's not a subject of any clear canonical importance to the Federation, the Ferengi cases are pretty irrefutable examples of crossdressing. What's more, if this database be one supposedly written from the perspective of editors at the end of ''Star Trek'' time, then we cannot ignore the impact of transvestism on the development of Ferengi culture. The rationale that "Ferengi women don't wear clothes, so Quark's 'effiminate' clothing in {{e|Profit and Lace}} could not be crossdressing" belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the episode. The whole point of the story is that Quark's crossdressing ultimately gives Ferengi women the right to wear clothes. By proving Zek right to the ultra-conservative Slug-O-Cola manufacturer — through "[[Lumba]]" — the recently-deposed Grand Nagus gets his post back, and with it, confirms the policy for which he'd been thrown out of office. Quark's crossdressing ultimately serves as the Ferengi equivalent of "bra-burning" on Earth. Crossdressing is confirmed in the episode, as it was in {{e|Rules of Acquisition}}, to be an important element in the freeing of Ferengi women from the shackles of naked, profitless life. (Yeah, yeah, I know:. All you haters of "Profit and Lace" and "Ferengi episodes" of DS9 just rolled your collective eyeballs.) '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 15:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
==Discussion of major re-write==
==Discussion of major re-write==
−
The article was entirely re-written today, along the lines suggested in my vote to keep, above. I would suggest that the above votes no longer apply to the article as it stands and a new round of voting be entered into. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 05:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
+
The article was entirely re-written today, along the lines suggested in my vote to keep, above. I would suggest that the above votes no longer apply to the article as it stands and a new round of voting be entered into. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 05:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
−
:'''Neutral'''. The article is certainly much improved, and well written. I would wonder whether or not it needs a separate article when these things could be mentioned on the [[Ferengi history]] page, but I don't out-and-out oppose this page. [[User:31dot|31dot]] 13:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
+
:'''Neutral'''. The article is certainly much improved, and well written. I would wonder whether or not it needs a seperate article when these things could be mentioned on the [[Ferengi history]] page, but I don't out-and-out oppose this page. [[User:31dot|31dot]] 13:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
−
::Definitely '''move''' most of the current content to [[Ferengi history]], if anywhere. All of that is only very tangentially related to "cross dressing", and the importance of the events itself seriously blown out of proportion. What's left would be a dictionary definition of the term, which, I think would not be worth keeping. -- [[User:Cid Highwind|Cid Highwind]] 14:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
+
::Definitely '''move''' most of the current content to [[Ferengi history]], if anywhere. All of that is only very tangentially related to "cross-dressing", and the importance of the events itself seriously blown out of proportion. What's left would be a dictionary definition of the term, which, I think would not be worth keeping. -- [[User:Cid Highwind|Cid Highwind]] 14:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
−
:::A countervailing argument might be that keeping it in place, with some solid ''Star Trek'' content, might prevent other anon users from starting the article up again as it first appeared. Also, I think the article usefully establishes that it's not a common practice outside the FA, something you couldn't really do from within the FA article. That is, having an article about cross-dressing, which has redirects from several different words, lets users know this is the extent to which the ''Star Trek'' universe deals with the subject. It'll be the first thing that pops up in a search engine, whereas it wouldn't if buried in a Ferengi history article. It's also a place you can point to from other related articles, like [[Sexuality]]. There's an extent to which you could do that with some long link like <nowiki>[[Ferengi Alliance#24th Century History#Women's Liberation Movement]]</nowiki>, but I'm not quite sure why that would be preferable.
+
:::A counterveiling argument might be that keeping it in place, with some solid ''Star Trek'' content, might prevent other anon users from starting the article up again as it first appeared. Also, I think the article usefully establishes that it's not a common practice outside the FA, something you couldn't really do from within the FA article. That is, having an article about cross-dressing, which has redirects from several different words, lets users know this is the extent to which the ''Star Trek'' universe deals with the subject. It'll be the first thing that pops up in a search engine, whereas it wouldn't if buried in a Ferengi history article. It's also a place you can point to from other related articles, like [[Sexuality]]. There's an extent to which you could do that with some long link like <nowiki>[[Ferengi Alliance#24th Century History#Women's Liberation Movement]]</nowiki>, but I'm not quite sure why that'd be preferable.
−
:::Also, the number of short stubs about really obscure subjects on MA argues against length as a rationale for deleting an article. Cross-dressing, though not named, was the central plot element of two episodes in DS9. Surely it deserves equal consideration with things that were briefly mentioned but ''never'' seen, like [[W.E.B. DuBois (starship)|the W.E.B. DuBois]], [[Wages of Fear|''Wages of Fear'']] and [[body-surfing]] '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 05:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
+
:::Also, the number of short stubs about really obscure subjects on MA argues against length as a rationale for deleting an article. Cross-dressing, though not named, was the central plot element of two episodes in DS9. Surely it deserves equal consideration with things that were briefly mentioned but ''never'' seen, like [[W.E.B. DuBois (starship)|the W.E.B. DuBois]], [[Wages of Fear|''Wages of Fear'']] and [[body-surfing]] '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 05:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
== Admin resolution ==
== Admin resolution ==
<!-- Note to admin: When resolving this deletion discussion, change the category of this page to "[[Category:Memory Alpha archived pages for deletion discussions|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]" to remove it from the listing of active discussions. -->
<!-- Note to admin: When resolving this deletion discussion, change the category of this page to "[[Category:Memory Alpha archived pages for deletion discussions|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]" to remove it from the listing of active discussions. -->
−
* So, it was never used. It was never something we really saw. It's a supposition. So, I've taken the lovely new text, "merged" it into the [[Ferengi]] article, and changed cross dressing into a localized redirect. -- [[User:Sulfur|Sulfur]] 22:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
+
* So, it was never used. It was never something we really saw. It's a supposition. So, I've taken the lovely new text, "merged" it into the [[Ferengi]] article, and changed crossdressing into a localized redirect. -- [[User:Sulfur|Sulfur]] 22:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
[[Category:Memory Alpha archived pages for deletion discussions|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]
[[Category:Memory Alpha archived pages for deletion discussions|{{SUBPAGENAME}}]]