“Long ago and oh so far away, I fell in love with you before the second show. Your guitar it sounds so sweet and clear, but you're not really there...”
With her bass and the look of unspoken “fuck off” assertion, for decades Kim Gordon has been celebrated as a signifier of what it is to be ‘cool’. As part of Sonic Youth, Kim stood firmly center stage in a maelstrom of avant-garde noise, taking in the male gaze and “[throwing] her own gaze back out into the audience”.
Her evangelised relationship with Thurston Moore only furthered this assumed persona of untouchable cool as they became the couple everyone padlocked their hopes onto for their own love life. Then, four years ago, this idealised identity came crashing down as it was announced that Sonic Youth would be performing their last show as Kim and Thurston would be separating.
Opening Kim Gordon’s hotly anticipated autobiography Girl In A Band the first chapter relays Sonic Youth’s final show in Sao Paulo, Brazil and on the surface appears to continue these expected identity tropes: Sonic Youth’s Kim Gordon or Kim Gordon and Thurston Moore. But, Girl In A Band is defiantly the opposite; it is Kim taking ownership of her identity with the lamentation of lost love as a clear side-note.
It is a true autobiography in the sense that it intimately documents Kim’s whole life: from her time growing-up in 60s Los Angeles to her Coming Soon exhibition as Kim Gordon: Design Office in 2014. It’s about the people, the places, the sounds, the art, the events, the relationship and the music that have been in her life and shaped her as a person. For fans yearning for a tell-all book about Sonic Youth or a TMZ takedown of a high-profile marriage, look someplace else.
Most importantly the book (similarly to Viv Albertine’s Clothes Clothes Clothes, Music Music Music, Boys Boys Boys) shows how female identity is fluid not fixed; it is there for us to define and redefine as well as ours to protect. In an era, when women are pressured to be off-the-shelf ready by their early twenties Kim, as a self-proclaimed “late developer”, shows how a woman’s identity as a public or private figure is a constant evolution to be embraced rather than be confined.
Tucked away in an unassuming small meeting room at her publisher Faber & Faber’s London office Kim is seated on the leather sofa surrounded by a sea of fruit and cakes. The interview is nearly the last of her back-to-back UK press tour but Kim is still warm and upbeat as we chat about her guest spot on Woman’s Hour from the previous day as she asks tentatively how the interview sounded.
Becoming known on the book’s press tour as a “reticent” interviewee, in the words of friend and former interviewer Carrie Brownstein, it's not a surprise that when the dictaphone is turned on Kim becomes guarded. However, over the next 25 minutes Kim does open up just slightly to talk about why she decided to write such an honest autobiography, whether it’s easier to be a woman in the music industry today and how she will never write a book about Sonic Youth.
You don’t seem to relish interviews…
No, not really.
What’s the promo been like for this book compared to promoting an album or your art?
Well, much more promo…much, much more promo. Generally the interviews have been good.
In the book you’re quite disparaging about the British press in the 90s. What’s your experience of the British press been like this time?
It’s been fine [laughs]. It’s been fine.
The title of the book came from journalists asking you, ‘what’s it like to be a girl in a band?’ Do you feel you’re still labeled by the press but differently?
No. The whole premise of the book it’s obviously me, my life, it’s like being a woman is part of who I am. It’s not like anyone’s asked, ‘what’s it like being a woman writing a memoir’.
What was the process of writing the book like compared to recording an album or creating an art show? How did the process differ?
It’s much longer, writing. I’ve written articles and essays but never a long book. The most different thing too is the way the promo goes with records, everything is back-loaded a couple of months, whereas for the book as it gets closer to the release date there’s more, more, more piled up. It was different.
Was there anything in particular you liked or disliked about it?
I just don’t really like doing photo shoots and interviews. It’s a weird thing because it’s work but it doesn’t feel like work, like you’re actually doing anything.
I suppose because the product is you?
It’s hard to focus on yourself...
And there’s nowhere to hide.
Yeah...
I was surprised when I read the book that the story of Sonic Youth took a backseat. How did you decide to structure the book?
I didn’t want it to be a book about Sonic Youth, because one reason is I know someone will write a really good book someday and I just didn’t want to do that. I just wanted to do my story and that’s part of it, so I just had to find a way to fit it in in a way that added to overall story.
Now you’ve written your own autobiography and got your story across, would you consider writing a book about Sonic Youth from your point of view?
No, I wouldn’t.
Although there are a lot of books out there about Sonic Youth it would be very different if it was written by someone on the inside.
I think someone will write a good Sonic Youth book that’s not boring and I have no desire to do that.
The book is extremely honest and open, was it a conscious decision to be as honest as possible and to not hide anything?
Yeah, I didn’t say everything. I gave a pretty streamlined version of what happened with the break-up and everything actually. There’s a lot you could still read between the lines, but I just thought isn’t that what you're supposed to do when you write as a writer? Whether you’re writing a novel or writing a non-fiction book. A novel, even though you’re making something up, you still draw from things from real life. In a certain way, pretending I was someone else writing that story made it easier to be honest. I feel like you have to take risks if you want to get anything out life.
Do you regret anything you said or are you more or less happy with it?
Yeah, pretty much. More or less.
In your ‘Boys Smell’ tour journal you said being a female bassist was “ideal” as you “like being in a weak position and making it strong”. That point of view could also be applied to your book, coming back from being perceived as in a weak position – the end of a band and a marriage - and making it something positive.
Yes, that was part of my intent. To make something positive out of it, I guess.
Reading the book it seemed like you were trying to get your own identity back after years of being defined first by your brother and then your band. Did you write it as a way of getting ownership back of your life?
Yes, I guess so. Sure.
Do you think you are now independently ‘you’?
Finally [laughs]. In a way I guess I did.
Do you think a lot of women struggle from being defined by the male figures in their lives?
I don’t know, I’m sure a lot of women do. But there are a lot of women who are really strong and didn’t have a problem there, maybe they were the oldest.
The cover photo and book jacket are very striking: the image of you staring straight into the camera and the very vivid orange jacket. What made you choose that picture and that style?
I liked the image. Actually that whole picture was really great, we couldn’t use the other people on the subway as we didn’t have release forms. I just thought the picture was great, I was wearing a stupid astrology shirt [laughs].
You talk briefly in the book about astrology mainly in relation to Danny Graham and his love of astrology. Has that played a role in your life too?
I mean, I don’t look at my astrology everyday. My friend does my chart once a year and everything he’s ever told me has been true in terms of predicting everything that happened with my marriage.
“You have 50 planets in the house of publishing” [laughs] You know it’s just fun, it’s another way to look at things, I don’t take it totally seriously but if I’m trying to figure out something about someone it gets you halfway there. It’s like, “oh yeah”. Sometimes it gives you a clue.
In most photos of you in the past you’re not smiling and look detached, whereas in your recent photos (it sounds like a simple observation) you’re smiling and it’s very flowing. Does that reflect a change in the way you feel about yourself?
I always want to smile in photos, but people don’t want to use those photos. I think I was pretty serious as a kid and growing up and I probably smile more now. For a long time I’ve been trying to get people to use photos of me smiling, it’s hard.
I think it’s because everyone just wants that ‘I’m cool in a band’ look.
Or you’re a “strong woman” so you should look really harsh and kind of scary.
When I told friends I was interviewing you they said, “oh my god, she’s so cool!” Do you think that was a label that was pushed on you by the press? Does that restrict you as it takes away all your other characteristics?
I guess it probably worked in a way also though that people just project stuff on you and people think I’m much cooler than I am and I’m definitely not, I can tell you [laughs].
Cool is a strange concept though.
It is a strange concept and everyone ever is so preoccupied by it.
If you had to, what or who would define as cool?
Someone who does what they want despite whether it’s conventional or not.
In the book you write a lot about how women are taught to please and be pleasers and I feel that’s something that’s not talked about. You have a daughter, how have you tried to rebel against that when raising her?
When she was little I always tried not to say, “you’re a good girl” I’d always say “that’s good” or “that’s great what you did”. Or not say “bad girl”. But, I suppose boys grow up with that too wanting to please but girls seem more prone to that.
I’d say girls do as you’re expected to be maternal and caring and take the secondary role.
Yeah, just agonise more over how other people feel.
Do you feel right now you’re less of a people pleaser?
I still am, but as I’ve gotten older I feel less like I care about that. I think I just have a different idea of who the person is who I’m pleasing and I imagine that person to be into electronic music {[laughs]. I guess I don’t care as much as I used to.
Was Sonic Youth kept together by your need to please people?
Maybe, just trying to make it work. I think everyone in the band was pretty committed to making it work to an extent.
In the book there’s not a lot about the other members of Sonic Youth, was that deliberate?
Well it was kind of deliberate. One, I didn’t want to make it into a Sonic Youth book and then even if you say nice things about somebody that bothers people, the way they’re described.
Have you heard what the other members think of the book?
Lee [Ranaldo] liked it, but I haven’t actually heard from Steve [Shelley].
Even when I publish a feature it can feel like releasing a baby out into the world and I worry what people are going to say. Does that concern you?
I try not to worry about it too much because most of it’s been positive, almost all of it, I just don’t want to stay up at night worrying about that.
In the book you talk about women in music during the 80s and 90s, Lydia Lunch and Madonna and then women now like Lana Del Rey. Do you think it’s easier or harder for women in the music industry now?
I don’t know, it seems like there are more different kinds of women playing music or singers or types of personalities so there’s less of stereotype possibility. The most interesting thing about women playing music today is that there are more women playing experimental music - which is essentially a male record collecting genre - that’s kind of impressive to me.
I think that most women playing music don’t think about that, they just do it they don’t think about whether it’s hard or not. Is it hard to be a woman in journalism?
Yes, it is sometimes
I think there are some things that are similar across the board. I think women are often scrutinized and have to do double flips whereas men don’t. It seems like men get away with a lot more with what they say, it seems that women are really just under a microscope.
The title is Girl In A Band. What do you imagine it’s like to be a boy in a band?
I don’t know, it’s funny. No one actually even asks, “what’s it like playing with a girl in your band?” Which actually would be more interesting than always trying to get at it from the same angle.
Have you got anything coming up with Body/Head?
We’re probably going to record this summer, we’ve just being doing a few dates here and there and went to Australia.
You’re working again as a visual artist and last year you put on the exhibition Coming Soon. Today we’re in a very visual age, do you ever wish you were an artist starting out now?
No. I feel like I was such a slow developer throughout my career that I feel like I’ve now been given a new lease on that. I wouldn’t want to be an artist starting out right now or a musician.
You were in Gossip Girl, Girls and Gilmore Girls. What was that experience like?
Gossip Girl was weird; it’s always weird when you’re playing yourself. The Girls thing was really fun, it was really funny, they made it really easy.
Montage Of Heck, the documentary about Kurt Cobain, was released this year. Would you ever allow your autobiography to be made into a film?
Oh, I don’t know.
You co-founded the fashion label X-Girl in the 90s and it was hugely successful. Would you ever go back into fashion?
No, definitely not. That’s one thing I’m not really that interested in.
There was a bizarre picture of you in the front row of Alexander Wang’s show with Nicki Minaj, Rihanna and Die Antwood.
I think her [Nicki Minaj] bodyguards were standing right in front of me and they made me switch with that guy because he was bugging her.
Where do you want to be in 15 years?
My god, I don't know. Alive?
