Matt Wilson | The Wicked + The Divine
In this episode Matt Wilson talks about American Ninja Warrior and his extensive works!
Topics include Matt doing an American Ninja-ish Warrior course, quality television editing, emotional manipulation, Matt’s accidental comic book origin story, when mom throws out your comics sob, the arcane past of coloring books, deciding not to draw comics, color storytelling when compared to the renaissance studios, recognition, working in studios, building long-term relationships with other creators, differences for creator-owned work, heading back to recolor Phonogram, we asked his favorite color ok so get over it, and what he’s reading!
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Transcription:
Tia: We have a huge show. I think one of the biggest we’ve ever done. Am I right about that?
Slim: I am in total agreement.
Tia: I’m sitting here talking with not one, but two American Ninja Warriors named Matt.
Matt Wilson: Oh, I didn’t know that. I didn’t realize that.
Tia: One of them, Matt, aka Slim, you know from the podcast.
Slim: Yes, I’m here.
Tia: The other you might have seen some of his coloring work in books like “Paper Girls,” “Thor,” “Black Widow,” “Daredevil,” and of course, “The Wicked + the Divine.” I’m talking about the wonderful, extraordinary, and very busy Matt Wilson. Hi Matt.
Matt Wilson: Hey. How’s it going?
Slim: It’s going amazing. Let’s get the big stuff out of the way. This is what everyone came here to talk about. How great is American Ninja Warrior? I saw videos of you online doing a course. Can you walk us through your emotions? What was your heart feeling during that?
Matt Wilson: Yeah. I wanted to throw up even though I was just performing in front of a bunch of 13-year-olds and people just in this little local gym, but yeah. I can’t imagine actually doing it on TV. Best time ever. It was so much fun.
Slim: It did look like a lot. To be fair, I’m technically not an American Ninja Warrior. I’ve done the Spartan Race where you’re up on a mountain and trying not to die in the hot sun, but I feel like every time I watch American Ninja Warrior I just want to cry because the stories are so good, and they edit it so well.
Matt Wilson: Yeah, that’s where they really get you is the tearjerkers or the one husband who started working out so he could carry his wife around because she got some kind of debilitating disease.
Slim: Yes.
Tia: Oh my god.
Matt Wilson: I know. It’s like geez, guys. Come on. I thought I was here for the entertainment. Not the tears.
Slim: I actually was watching … My son has started to make the request. This is now an American Ninja Warrior podcast, but …
Matt Wilson: Yeah, sorry guys. Go elsewhere for comics.
Slim: My son made the request to start watching it and I was just laying on the couch. It was like, we were eating dinner and there was just one story with the girlfriend was there. The guy was a rock climber, and he fell and hurt himself so he couldn’t do his Olympic Nordic skiing, so he trains people in the Special Olympics and his girlfriend was there cheering him on. I was crying immediately. It’s like the most emotional television show in history in my opinion.
Matt Wilson: Yeah, it’s super emotionally manipulative and kind of cheesy in that way, but I mean, those stories seem genuine. My wife and I enjoy watching that show and then we were lucky enough that one of the guys who competes on it and is featured pretty prominently in the show, a couple of people opened a gym near our house and he’s involved in it. It’s like five minutes from the house, so why haven’t we done this yet? I’ve gone three or four times this year. It’s a lot of fun.
Tia: What I’m getting from this is that the correct answer in that WicDiv [The Wicked + The Divine] survey for the question, “Which of team WicDiv can do pull ups?” The answer was Matt Wilson.
Matt Wilson: Yeah, me and surprisingly I think Kieron [Gillen], he’s right there with me. He doesn’t look it, but he’s wiry.
Slim: Wiry.
Tia: I think I voted for Chrissy [Williams] personally.
Matt Wilson: Oh, well, I think that, yeah. I think I voted for Chrissy as well.
Slim: All right, so if we can pivot into actual comic books-
Matt Wilson: If we must.
Slim: If people want to hear about that, but you’ve pretty much colored everything under the sun. You’ve done it all. You’re doing a ton of books now people can find on the stands whether it be a few months back or even currently. What’s your origin story in comic books? Unfortunately we don’t talk to many colorists and it’s something we’re trying to change on the podcast, but how did you get started into becoming one of the most sought after colorists in the business?
Matt Wilson: By accident really. I read comic books as a kid and drew and painted and sculpted and all that growing up and loved, loved, loved creating art and managed to get like three art classes in my senior year of high school schedule somehow. I went to art school half because I didn’t want to go to a real college and the other half because I like drawing. I thought I wanted to do film school. I went to a lot of film camps and things, so I was clearly into visual storytelling in various ways. Drew my own comics as a kid. They’re awful. I still have them. Then went to art school with the intention of doing film and video but then kind of felt like, “Oh, I shouldn’t waste this drawing talent.” Then I switched. The college I went to had a Sequential Art program, a comics program, so I switched to that.
I had kind of fallen out of reading comics so much right before college. My mom was like, “Oh, these are bad for you,” and got rid of them which is something I like to poke fun at her every time I see her since I make a living making comics. Then the one place in town there where I graduated college well, I was like, “Well, if I’m going to stay here, where could I work with this art degree of mine?” A colorist, Lee Loughridge who’s been coloring for forever because he’s very old, Lee, he had a coloring studio called Zylonol Studios. I gave him my portfolio and he was like, “Yeah, yeah, kid. This is great. Get out of here.” Basically it was like, “It’s a small studio. There’s not a lot of spaces that open up very often.” That kind of thing.
It just so happened two weeks later someone in the studio got engaged of something and moved away, so a space opened up. I just started work. It was the first kind of like real art job I got offered out of college. I started working as one of Lee’s assistants, you know, like scanner. At the time, we still received the original pages there at the studio because not a lot of artists had scanners because they were extremely expensive then at the size they needed to scan pages. I would do stuff like the word balloons were still on the pages then. Hand lettering and all that. I would go in and digitally remove the lettering to get it out of the way for the coloring process. A lot of just grunt work. Then worked my way up in his studio.
Then by going to conventions, I just met other people who were kind of up and coming, just trying to break into comics and do whatever. A lot of them had books at Image and that kind of thing back when that meant something very different like selling 2,000 copies or something in the early 2000s. Some of them would need colorists and they didn’t necessarily have any money to pay them, but I was making … my day job coloring comics paid me, and so at night I would color these other comics for nothing, but it would get my name in a book, and I could go to a convention as a professional because I had my name in a book and that kind of thing because at the studio the books were credited to the studio, I should say.
Anyway, those little jobs snowballed. Those relationships snowballed. I would meet more people through the ones I already met and eventually I worked on things like “Phonogram,” or even before that I should say, “Suburban Glamour” with Jamie McKelvie who draws “Wicked + The Divine” and “Phonogram” and “Young Avengers” and all that. I did a book with him and that’s how I got onto “Phonogram” and books like that. I did some Rick Remender’s Dark Horse stuff and eventually all those guys hit it big at Marvel and I just kind of rode their coattails right in the door. Started coloring little projects at Marvel and then those snowballed into things to where now I’m doing “Thor” and “Black Widow” and stuff you mentioned earlier. That kind of sums it up, I think.
Tia: Do you feel like your background in film or your interest in film pushed you more toward coloring in some way because, I don’t know. I guess what made you decide that you didn’t want to be drawing comics yourself?
Matt Wilson: Kind of a mix of things. I certainly was always interested in coloring. I mean, I painted. I just did goofy little paintings with a kit and whatever. My mom bought me a big set of Prismacolor markers when I was still in high school, so I colored all my comics with markers and colored all my drawings with markers. Then in the course of my studies for the Sequential Art Department they had a Coloring For Comics class which I took and I seemed to do well in and enjoyed.
Why I ended up coloring instead of drawing is it’s just the first job I got and then never got out of. I had also had some interviews to do some concept art at various companies. The one that went the furthest was at a video game company and it was about the same time I got some interest back from Lee to color at his studio, and it just, the coloring is the one that kind of hit first. I didn’t necessarily go, “All right. Now I’m going to be a colorist for forever.” I just was, “Okay. This is a cool job.” I was 22 or whatever at the time and someone was paying me to color or work on comics and it was at a studio with a handful of other people, so it was a fun thing.
It was easy to just do for a few years, and then, like I said, I was like, "Oh, I want my name in a book, so I can go to the convention as a professional.” Met some people who needed a colorist. It was kind of one thing led to another. I didn’t set out to become a colorist.
I think early on I saw some of Dave Stewart’s color, early on in my career I should say, some of Dave Stewart’s color over a Cliff Chiang-drawn book called “Beware the Creeper.” I remember that being the first thing where I was like, “Wow. Look at this. This is what coloring can really do.” I remember that being the first thing even after I’d already started working in coloring, but that was the first thing that clued me in a little bit as to like, “Well maybe if I’m going to be a colorist, this is the kind of thing I can aspire to.”
Tia: I have an art history background and I am often really drawn to the storytelling that’s done with the coloring in comics. I just realized even as I was asking you that last question that it seems like the way that we talk about it there’s this unspoken hierarchy as though you would really want to be drawing the book and I hate that. I really want to do more in the way that I talk about comics on the podcast or when I write reviews to treat the color as its own creative thing.
It reminds me even of Renaissance studios where you’d have the artist and it was his idea and everyone else would carry out his idea and he got all the credit for it, but really, there’s so much talent and thoughtfulness and creativity that goes into these other aspects. I don’t know. How do you feel about the way that colorists are recognized and how that seems like it’s starting to change?
Matt Wilson: That’s actually a great point and some good ways of looking at it in referencing some of the great masters or the Renaissance artists. It’s definitely starting to change and has been for the last handful of years or something. I feel like if however many years in the future you could look back and say, “Oh, this is before colorists were recognized, and this is after,” I think these last half dozen years or so are kind of the beginning of that transition. There’s a lot of aspects to it. I think the tools to color digitally are still relatively new in the long view of the history of comics thus far, and so just people looking at them as straight tools and having a lot of time to use them.
I always talk about, like, I didn’t use a computer to make art until I was 19 or 20, you know? A friend of mine who’s a doctor whose daughter’s really into drawing, he came and asked me, “What should I get her for Christmas?” last year. I recommended a few tablets or things to draw digitally on, to create digitally on, and that kid’s six or something, you know what I mean? That kid’s just going to grow up with that as a tool. I think as some of the younger generations that are now coming into the professional world of comics, they’re going to bring so much more experience with these digital tools than say I even had, certainly when I started.
I think that in part is helping transition the art of coloring into something that’s taken a little more serious. There’s the aspect of it of just publishers or creators on creator-owned giving colorists the credit that they’re due as far as what they actually bring to the art. The more that they do that, the more they’ll make their readers aware. I don’t necessarily blame a reader that doesn’t recognize, "Oh, this is the colorist’s contribution to the storytelling, to the art,” because hopefully in a good, a well-made comic everyone’s working together and you kind of produce this one cohesive package in the end, and the reader’s not taken out of any one aspect or the other. I can get how you just glaze right over like, “Oh, I like the art,” and not really understand what you’re meaning when you say that.
I feel like educating the reader on what we do, the different processes, or what the different artists bring to the book I think is an important part of that. I think all of that coming together right now with social media or ways for us to promote ourselves and then people getting more comfortable with the technology or the tools and then just starting to be taken a little more seriously. All of that combines to I think a coloring renaissance or at least the beginning of coloring being taken more seriously.
Slim: You had mentioned a coloring studio earlier where you got your name and when you’re in a studio you don’t get credit at first. Do you think subconsciously that has an effect on how maybe readers or people in the industry perceive coloring in books because at a certain point when you start you don’t get credited? You’re kind of a part of a group?
Matt Wilson: Maybe. I think the studio side of coloring is not prevalent anymore. It used to, I think, earlier, say in the early 2000s, I think you would see a lot more studios credited for coloring books. There’s a part which the length of this podcast won’t allow for, but you go back in how coloring was done originally. It was more on the production side of things versus the artistic side, the creative side of things back when it was done by hand cutting these gels, these translucent, colored gels. It was literally just something someone did down in an office on the floor below our editorial in the building.
It was an in-house production job not to say that some of those people didn’t bring some kind of artistic talent or merit to what they were doing, but that it was just looked at as a part of production. I think that the fact that coloring started there, we’re just crawling out of that more and more each year that passes, but I think a lot of what you’re referring to probably has its roots in that and then you get another version of it where when I started there was still coloring.
There was comics coloring and then color separations. The coloring was done by hand with watercolors or markers on printouts of the pages and then if that person didn’t know how to … That’s because that person didn’t know how to color in Photoshop or whatever, then they would send those color guides done by hand to a studio like the one I worked at and we would do what are called color separations. We would translate those guides into a digital file for them to then print.
Slim: My god. Sounds like so much work.
Matt Wilson: Even then it was still we were doing more production work. As all that stuff goes away, and like I said, instead of looking at it like, “Oh, you draw digitally?” It’s just going to be, “Oh, you draw?” or “You paint? Color?” These digital tools will just be looked at as tools and it’s just part of the natural progress of stuff.
Slim: I think with natural progress these days you attempt to build long-term relationship with creators as a colorist and I think you’re doing that now. Is that one of the goals as a colorist to become so known in the community so that to the point where you’re getting requested by other creators and then from then on you almost have a long-term relationship where it’s not just writers and artists work together but it’s writers, artists, and colorists are working together on a new project with the same team?
Matt Wilson: Yeah, yeah. That’d be great. If that’s the end result that would be terrific. That’s certainly in some cases what you get. Someone like myself with Jamie and Kieron or Bettie Breitweiser. It’s kind of like, who’s going to draw one of Ed Brubaker’s books? It’s within at least a few artists like oh, who’s going to draw that book? But it’s almost always like Bettie Breitweiser coloring in an Ed Brubaker book. I mean, that stuff’s starting to happen more and more for sure.
Yeah, it’s certainly … You can take it all the way back not just specific to coloring, but if you’re a freelance artist, heck yeah you want to be sought after, you know what I mean? As a freelancer, you’ve got to go out and find that work and to pay the bills you have to work. It’s not just a check that comes in regardless of what you’re working on or what you’re doing. If people are asking me for work, that’s one thing I don’t have to worry about is to go out and search for work. I can just sit here and work on the stuff I have and if someone offers me a job then I decide if I can take it or want to take it. Yes, just from a freelancer’s point of view, that is definitely the dream and the goal to have that kind of thing happen.
Then, more specifically, if I like having these long-lasting relationships with specific artists it’s great because it allows for us to really get to know each other and how we like to work and experiment with things together and have the relationship where say if Jamie’s thinking of drawing something differently or using a different brush or wanting to try something different in his art, he can say, “Hey, how do you think this will affect your end on the coloring?” Sometimes he’ll say, “Hey, I really liked what I saw you do in "Thor” or some other book that I color. “Can we try something like that in “Wicked + Divine?” Because he and I have that kind of relationship from working together for so long, it allows for a lot of experimentation. It’s definitely preferable to just bouncing around and working on a book without ever talking to the artist.
Tia: Is there much of a difference when you’re working with a book from Marvel, for example, even having a close relationship with the artist compared to working on something like “The Wicked + The Divine.” Do you get any more leeway or creative input with books where you’re kind of part of the core creative team and it’s a creator-owned book?
Matt Wilson: Right. Just in specifically the coloring portion of my job, it’s pretty similar from creator-owned to work for hire at somewhere like Marvel. For example, “Black Widow” feels just like a creator-owned book in terms of how we all discuss as a team between the writer and even Joe [Caramagna] the letterer, and Chris [Samnee]. We’re all on all these emails when they’re outlining the next arc, when Mark [Waid] and Chris are outlining the next arc or Chris sends in thumbnails. He sends it to all of us, so in that scenario it feels just like a creator-owned book, I think.
When I’m doing the actual work I don’t feel any different. I don’t differentiate at all between creator-owned and work for hire. My goal is always how am I going to enhance this story? How am I going to make this art look as good as it can? How am I going to do the best work I can do? I want to try these new brushes, or whatever it is I’m focusing on is pretty much the same from book to book regardless of work for hire or creator-owned.
I think the only difference comes down to in creator-owned all the marketing is up to the creators essentially letting people know little extra things like behind the scenes things. That’s all just left up to us. I think in those aspects it feels different. Usually it’s like I’ll get an email from the editor, “Hey, we did this interview for ‘Black Widow’” or whatever or “we’re putting a preview for ‘Black Widow’ in ‘Entertainment Weekly’” or whatever it is the thing that they’re doing. They just say, “Hey, we did this,” and you go, “Okay, cool,” versus creator-owned we talk about, “Oh, wouldn’t it be cool to do this for the next convention when Jamie and Kieron and I all go to a show to promote "The Wicked + The Divine.” That would be the only I think difference for me.
Granted, again, kind of going back to the hierarchy thing. Even on creator I’m still the colorist. I’m not at the same level of involvement in creating the story as obviously Kieron who writes it and Jamie who has to draw it. I get asked and give input on certain aspects of it that have to do with coloring, but a lot of it is still I just give a little bit of input here and there or finally at the end, but it’s slightly more in creator-owned than it would be a work for hire.
Tia: So you’re just as traumatized as the rest of us when you look at it and see someone’s being killed in “The Wicked + The Divine”?
Matt Wilson: Yeah. That’s funny. Before “The Wicked + The Divine” came out and we were working on it, Kieron had written this huge series bible that gave an outline of where the story was going to go and the different characters and all that. At first it was pretty broad and vague as he was working it all out. I had read the bible at one point and then he continually updated it. Then I just didn’t go back and read it for a while and then I forget which issue, and maybe I won’t say it in case anyone hasn’t read it, but there’s an issue where a character dies and Jamie and I were both kind of screamed at him via email and Kieron laughed and he was like, “I guess I’ve seen who hasn’t read the series bible.”
I was like, “You know, I should check that more often.” Where I knew the gist of the story, where it was going to end up, I didn’t know all the beats throughout, so that one got me. After that I’m like, "You know, I’m not going to let that happen again. I’m going to keep up with the … get his updates to the bible.”
Tia: You did the two last volumes of “Phonogram,” “Singles Club” and “Immaterial Girl” but I heard that for the hardcover they’re having you go back and color “Rue Britannia?”
Matt Wilson: Yes. Yeah, that’s something we’ve been talking about wanting to do for quite a while and finally we were able to slot it into the schedule in time for it being 10 years old.
Tia: How do you approach something like that? Do you use some of the techniques and palettes that you’ve already established for the other two because I mean, they’re each kind of their own separate thing? Are you coming up with an entirely different approach for it?
Matt Wilson: It was interesting because Jamie’s art has evolved immensely since 2007 or whenever. Yeah, 2007 or 2006 when he drew it. Maybe 2007 when it came out. We had discussions about should I, I don’t know, change my coloring style? Something maybe to more akin to how I would have colored then or maybe closer to how … Because if you look at the second volume of “Phonogram” which we worked on in 2008 or nine? Something like that? Then the third volume of “Phonogram” Jamie and I did the art for last year, so there’s a big difference in how Jamie draws and a big difference in how I color.
We talked about should I go back and color differently and in the end some of it was more driven just by the story and when that story takes place and how it was very similar to a late-nineties Vertigo book in and of itself and so I kind of directed my coloring in that way to emulate some of that coloring that you would see in some of those books. It was definitely something we talked about a lot. The other thing, too, was Jamie had done, because it wasn’t strictly black and white. It had a lot of gray scale so Jamie had put some shadows in and stuff with gray tones so all that information is still there.
I used all that gray tone stuff and I just colored and basically chose palettes and did a little bit of lining here and there. I just followed Jamie’s lead and tried not to overcomplicate the colors because I thought it might … Like if I tried to color his work like I color it now I just thought it might be a little much, like it just would become a little incongruous, like the colors wouldn’t match the art quite as well. I tried to be restrained in a lot of my choices as far as I’m not going to use a lot of special effects or try to add a lot of rendering to things. I was just going to let the art and the gray scale stuff that Jamie had done still come through and be the guiding factor for where the shadows go and that kind of stuff and just be real mindful of palette for storytelling reasons to make it clear they’ve changed locations or times or dimensions or whatever happens.
Tia: I’m so excited to see it especially now after talking to you because I feel like I can look at a book sometimes and I’ll just know that it’s a Matt Wilson book. Your colors are so distinctive and sometimes I’ll pick up a book because I look at it and I’m like, “Oh, Matt Wilson’s coloring this. I didn’t know. I’m going to read this now. It looks great.” I’m really looking forward to seeing how your Matt Wilson-ness plays out when you’re trying so hard to calibrate it to such a specific thing instead of having more free reign to just do your colors.
Matt Wilson: Yeah. It’s interesting. We even had the same discussion when it came to coloring the third volume of “Phonogram” because we said, “Should I go back and color like I did the second volume?” It would be different only in the fact that I have grown as an artist since 2008 or nine or whatever. Again, we decided, “No. We won’t do that,” but anyway, it’s really bizarre to just A, go back and look at your own work after a lot of time has passed and then B, to consider emulating it years and years later. It’s a quite an odd experience.
Tia: Matt, as a colorist, do you have a favorite color because Matt over here, my podcast Matt-
Slim: Your esteemed guest.
Tia: We were taking bets to see if we could guess which is your favorite color.
Slim: We were.
Matt Wilson: No, I definitely don’t have it written on my wall somewhere or all my T-shirts aren’t the same color, and I think it kind of changes. That’s the thing. I think because I’m always working with colors I’m like, “You know, I’m really into orange right now.” I think if I were to answer or say, “I bet someone else thinks my favorite color is …” I want to say hot pink. I don’t know.
Tia: That was totally my guess. Now Matt, you have to buy me another box of Girl Scout cookies.
Matt Wilson: Maybe I can even the scales. I will also say I hear from other people that they think my favorite color is purple.
Tia: Nope. Now I get two boxes of Girl Scout cookies.
Matt Wilson: Sorry, man. I tried.
Slim: You just put me further in the hole, Matt, so if you could stop, that would be tremendous.
Matt Wilson: Sorry. The other day I had my phone out and I had a Fitbit on my wrist and I had something else and I was like, “Someone would definitely think my favorite color is orange because my phone case is orange. My Fitbit is orange, but that wasn’t on purpose. I’m going to say orange but also hot pink, but I also like purple. Teal’s really cool, and then there’s this one green. Yeah, I don’t know.
Tia: I think you’ve found your calling is what we’re getting from this.
Matt Wilson: It allows me to be comfortable indecisive about my favorite color.
Slim: To wrap up we usually ask the same question each time and hopefully you have had time to read anything, but we usually ask what do you read in your spare time, or what would you recommend to people that are listening?
Matt Wilson: Yeah, A, I hate the pressure of this question on podcasts.
Tia: I’m sorry. It’s a mean question.
Matt Wilson: No, it’s okay. It’s a problem with me not a problem with you.
Tia: Should we make him send you some Girl Scout cookies to make up for it?
Matt Wilson: Yeah. I don’t know. You sound like you’re going to be flush with them after winning that [crosstalk 00:30:32]
Slim: Seriously.
Tia: Are American Ninja Warriors allowed to eat Girl Scout cookies?
Slim: I don’t know. Maybe not right before.
Matt Wilson: Yeah, they’re considered recovery food, I think.
Tia: Okay.
Matt Wilson: We were talking before we recorded. I would just say I have a large pile of to-read. Honestly, we renovated our house this year so I boxed up everything and didn’t buy anything because I was like, "Why would I get more stuff when I don’t even have a house to put it in?” It was like a five-month ordeal, so anyway, I had books from before that that I didn’t read and then I haven’t been buying books since then. I am just basically woefully behind. I will say the last thing that I plucked from that list when I couldn’t sleep one night was the big second hardcover of “Lazarus” which again is probably like a year old by now. I don’t know. I’m so, like I said, so far behind.
Slim: It’s like 10 years old right now.
Tia: I love that book, though.
Matt Wilson: Yeah, basically. [crosstalk 00:31:29] My other big favorite from when I used to read was “East of West” but again, I’m recommending McDonald’s and Burger King [crosstalk 00:31:41]
Tia: Those are great books.
Slim: Sometimes you need that 20-piece nug from McDonald’s [crosstalk 00:31:46].
Matt Wilson: It is so cheap! No, but yeah, I’m so woefully behind. Like I said, I see the stack over there and it’s just daunting.
Tia: If it helps, I feel like both of those books are still good, so those are just recommendations that will stand the test of time.
Matt Wilson: Yeah, if you’re not caught up on those like me, you should. I assume. I assume they stay great. I’m about a year behind.
Slim: We’ll reach out in 10 years back again when you’ve read the next volumes of those.
Matt Wilson: Hot takes on 2016’s books in 2026.
Slim: Matt, we appreciate you taking the time out. We love your work. Hopefully more people expand their mind and check out some even more, maybe some older work like some of the stuff like “Phonogram,” but thanks for coming on the show.
Matt Wilson: I appreciate it guys. Thank you very much.