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CONversations w/ Sal and Tiffany | ComicPOP!

In this episode Sal and Tiffany discuss their mega popular YouTube channel and loving comics!

Topics include how Sal and Tiffany first got into comic books at the breakfast table or even later in life, The Clone Saga, The Wildcats TV show, low level Public Access Television, starting the video vibes, 90s ruining things and then making comics get again, Wizard as the internet, being the positivity, smiling and nodding, comic book burnout, and what they are reading!

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Transcript:

Matt: Kara, welcome back.

Kara: What’s up?

Matt: What’s up? You ever heard of YouTube, Kara?

Kara: Tell me more, Matt.

Matt: It’s an internet thing. You can watch videos, you can subscribe to people. It’s hip. It’s now. You should look into it.

Kara: It’s what the youths are into?

Matt: The youths. How about a channel about comic books with over 35,000 subscribers?

Kara: What?

Matt: Six million views. Please welcome Sal and Tiffany from the hugely popular YouTube channel, ComicPOP!

Sal: Hi!

Tiffany: Hey!

Matt: Thanks for coming on the show, guys. Maybe people listening recall, we were actually on your channel. If I recall, it smashed every record that you guys had. The numbers are in. The channel was down for a period of time.

Tiffany: It was rough.

Sal: I got a stern call from YouTube itself.

Matt: It’s a robotic voice. It’s some kind of omnipotent being. You guys spread the word of comics on your channel, but how did you guys get started with comics? What was that like growing up and getting into it?

Sal: That’s a great question. Tiffany actually is the latecomer to comics.

Tiffany: I am.

Sal: I started reading comics probably around eight, maybe a little younger than that. I don’t really have a benchmark for when I started reading them because I read them for fun as a kid at the breakfast table. They were just kind of always there, through the Sunday paper or through friends and family who were just like, “You’re a kid. You’ll probably read these,” and threw a couple of Batmans at me. From there, I’m like, “Yeah, I’m into this.” From there, my love of comics kind of blossomed. It started out with Batman books, and then once I found out about Spider-Man, that was it. I was like, “Well. I’m a lifer.” Read pretty seriously up until I think 1995 when the Clone Saga went into full swing. Then I quit for a couple of years. I just couldn’t take anymore. Then I got back into it sometime in the 2000s, and I’ve been there ever since really. Then I reeled you in.

Tiffany: Yeah. I was the kid who was enamored with the X-Men animated series and even the WildC.A.T.S. animated series and Batman animated series and the Justice League and had no idea there was anything beyond it. I meet Sal sometime later and he’s like, “Yeah, comics. Cool, whatever,” and I’m like, “Neat.” One of the first comics I ever got into was actually Marvel 1602. Kind of an esoteric way to get into the Marvel Universe.

Matt: Yeah, that’s an interesting choice, and what’s even more interesting is that you decided to namedrop the WildC.A.T.S. animated series. I don’t think anyone has ever said that that got them into comic books. If anything, it made them probably want to stop watching television.

Tiffany: No, I was really into that. I’m kind of ashamed to admit that, but at the same time I’m like, “Yeah, no, that’s a part of it.”

Matt: That’s a dynamite theme, though.

Tiffany: It is.

Matt: Also, Sal, you mentioned stopping after the Clone Saga. Was it specifically the Clone Saga that ruined comics for you, or was it too good that you were like, “It’s never going to top that, so I might as well just stop”?

Sal: Comics are a funny relationship to be in because they excite and delight, but they also abuse and use you. If you were a child of the ‘80s and '90s and you were into comics during that period, it was a weird time because you got into the blossom of the independent scene with Frank Miller’s work and Image growing, but then you also got Knightfall and The Death of Superman and Reign of the Supermen and the Clone Saga and Force Works. In the mainstream it was kind of a really, really bumpy road. At one point or another, I collected all the way through Knightfall and Knightquest and KnightsEnd. I read all The Death of Superman through the Reign of the Supermen, and then the Clone Saga hit and I was like, “Okay, let’s do this.” I think that was right when they said, “The Spider-Man you’ve been reading since the '80s is actually fake.” I was like, “That’s enough. I’m going to go outside and see what that’s like.” I did that for a few years, and it was awful, let me tell you. I got pulled back in.

Tiffany: To the darkness.

Sal: Yeah.

Kara: How did you decide to take your love of comics and put that on film for the whole world to see?

Sal: That is a funny question because it wasn’t intentional, and it didn’t start out that way. The plan was, I always fantasized the people that I associated with and myself to be immeasurably hilarious and original. As such, I’m like, “We’re going to have to make videos.” In fact, in high school we shot a whole bunch of movie review shows that were kind of proto-YouTube shows. There was no place for them. We actually tried to pitch it to public access channels and try to get our faces and our brand out there that way. By the way, no public access channel was interested in any of our shows.

Matt: How low does the quality have to be for public access to say, “No thanks”?

Sal: To reject you? I don’t know if it was the cursing or if it was the complete lack of rights to use movies. There were a lot of problems. We always shot videos and shows with each other, and sometime when the technology became so affordable, we were like, “I could use this Sony Handycam, bring it everywhere, and shoot everything, and then edit it down into a watchable five to ten minutes.” It wasn’t a watchable because it was usually just us hanging out on the weekends. Sometime between filming weekend activities and remembering the shows I used to make in high school, I was like, “You know, I could probably combine this into an actual channel,” because YouTube had started to really grow into its own and start to advertise, these are the places where people can go. There are niche markets.

It wasn’t until I had started a conversation that I’ve been having probably since I was in my teens, where I explained comics to a couple of friends who never read them and have no context of what’s happening. Tiffany noticed that we were having this discussion for the umpteenth time, and she goes, “Wait a minute. You know what? You’ve been trying to catch some kind of spark on YouTube for some time. Why don’t you just record this damn thing?” So she set up the Handycam onto a tripod. Myself and our co-hosts Ethan and Ben and I just had a conversation about Venom. Of course, you can’t just jump into Venom, but I did anyway, and explained it to two guys who have no context for what an alien Symbiote is or who Eddie Brock might be. The rest of it blossomed from there. We were like, “Okay, this is a show.” That’s where Back Issues came from.

Thanks to Tiffany for actually having the idea because otherwise it would have just been another conversation lost in the ether and me banging my head against the wall trying to figure out what I want to do. So we made Back Issues, and then I’m like, “You know, we could also review comics, too,” and that’s where Off the Rack came from. Then after remembering all these different ideas and articles and notions from the old magazine Wizard, I was like, “We could probably make a whole thing out of this.” From there, it blossomed into an actual channel with a lineup and with a stable of shows that we’ve made more than almost 200 episodes of. It’s been really fun.

Kara: I think there’s some beautiful poetry in the fact that the '90s comic overload is what turned you off to it, and then you got into the video thing by focusing on Venom.

Sal: It’s that stable of information or wealth that I’ve accumulated over a vast period of reading schlocky comics that helped me develop this channel into what it is today. I owe a lot to those comics that drove me away in the beginning. It’s kind of ironic in that sense.

Matt: Tiffany, how do you view a lot of those '90s event books coming in maybe a little later? What’s your overall picture of those very '90s series?

Tiffany: Oh my God. When he started showing me … He does have a collection of old Wizard magazines. He’d be like, “Check this out.” I remember just flipping through the pages of that and seeing these splash images of these superheroines like Storm or Jean Grey, and I’m like, “That is not the Storm and Jean Grey I remember.” Then him talking about the Clone Saga and the Death of Superman and the Return of Superman, and I’m like … They were just trying anything at this point. The '90s was just extreme, and that’s what we’re going to capture in comics. I was like, “Man, I’m glad I got into it now, I gotta tell you.”

Matt: That era, I was one of those guys that read Wizard. Wizard was like the internet in the '90s. It’s strange how important that series was, and it had a very seedy end. I really wish that Wizard was available in online archives. That was like the Wikipedia for nerds back then. I remember they used to do … This is becoming Wizard magazine podcast … They used to break down Marvels. They used to do kind of like Pop-Up Video, where they would break down a scene and do the little Easter eggs of every issue, and that stuff’s just gone. Like it doesn’t exist now because if it’s not on the internet, it might as well not exist.

Sal: We kind of actually … I like the positive message that Wizard was, and I kind of aspired to not necessarily fill that gap, but try and live up to what it meant to me. Not necessarily be Wizard, because Wizard, as you said, went into a dark direction towards the end and then finally … Well, you know. There it is. With respect to what it meant for me …

I didn’t have friends growing up who read comics. All my friends played lacrosse or they were in Scouts or they watched high drama television. For me, it was legitimately like, “Hey, this crazy thing’s happening in Spider-Man! His parents are back, and they’re Life Model Decoys,” and they have no idea what I’m talking about. Picking up a magazine where not only do they know what I’m talking about, but they know more than I do and they’re making inside references, they’re making jokes that only I would get. It was a really, really welcoming haven for me.

That’s kind of what I wanted to do when we crystallized what ComicPOP! became. I was like, “I want to be that for people now.” I know there are people out there who don’t necessarily have a lot of friends who are into comics, or maybe they want to start getting into comics but they don’t necessarily know where to start or they don’t really have the context for it. That’s why we have such a great cast, with Tiffany and Ben and Ethan, because they got in late, too. They don’t really know the whole story, but they’re open-minded enough to listen to what we have to say.

Kara: Easily half the things that you’ve name-dropped in this conversation so far, I’m just sitting here like smiling and nodding. You can’t see, but I have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re like, “Oh yeah, Spider-Man’s parents were clones,” and I’m like, “But … He has an aunt. It’s Aunt May.”

Matt: Sometimes it’s best not to think about it.

Kara: So many things to gloss over. You were mentioning earlier a bit how you have all these different kinds of videos on your channel. It’s almost like sub-channels within your channel. Everything from dramatic readings of major moments in comics to your Done in One series, where you only take one minute to pitch a comic book. Is there one of those types of videos that you find extra-challenging or extra-rewarding to create?

Sal: Absolutely. One of my favorite shows that doesn’t do as well as it really should is Hack and Splash Page, which is Tiffany’s show. When we started Off the Rack, which is just our mainstream comic review show, we all read a book. Here’s what we thought about it, breaking down the art, writing, and story. When we would do one single issue per episode, some of the times we would just throw out a Dark Horse book or an Image book or a Boom! Studios book or a Marvel book or a DC book and mix it up. The Marvel and DC books did fine, and anything else did poorly. No one wanted to see that, and they let us know it immediately.

I liked the idea of dedicating a whole show to the indie scene, and because Tiffany really, really digs indie books in general, I was like, “This is a great opportunity for you to headline a show. This is the show.” It’s kind of evolved over its beginnings to something really interesting. I’m really proud of it because it’s a really cool show and there’s a lot of work that goes into it, but because there’s a lot of work that goes into it, it can only come out every couple of months. It also highlights, “This is an indie book. This is Hinterkind. This is the Descender.” You’re like, “What?”

Then there are people out there who really, really want to hear about these indie books that they love so much. If I want to stay true to my mandate of, “I want to be there for people who read comics and don’t necessarily have an audience or a support group or really dig that,” then we should be there to help them out with indie books in general. I really dig that show. Not to take your … This is literally your show, and I’m like, “Yeah, let me tell you all about it.”

Tiffany: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I think that Back Issues and, not to call back to the fact that it was me putting the camera down, that for me, seeing that grow over time and seeing the following that it has gathered as it went along, I think that’s one of the best shows that we have out there. I’m always proud whether or not I’m on the show or not. When they’re filming it and when I’m listening to Sal edit it, I love that whole thing. Love it.

Sal: I will say I really do love Back Issues. It is so much fun to shoot. It’s a lot of fun to edit, and it’s even more fun to see people absorb it and enjoy it and react to it.

Tiffany: And to catch things that we would have never caught. It’s given Sal an amazing opportunity to even bring his parents on at one point and to share what it is that he does.

Sal: That kind of blew a lot of people’s minds, including my parents. I was like, “Let me explain Dark Knight Returns to you guys. I read it when I was 13,” and they were like, “What?”

Matt: You touched on something that is a really interesting piece of comic fandom in that there’s a big segment of readers that don’t care about anything but Marvel and DC, and that’s fine because there’s great stuff in Marvel and DC. It’s hard to expand people’s minds about certain other segments of comics. We see that all the time because we do the same thing on our show. There’s also a segment maybe closer to Tiffany since you started later, but did you have a stigma about Marvel and DC, like quote-unquote “cape” comics that you’re like, “I don’t really care about that stuff”? It’s got to be hard to get both folks to try to change and try something new.

Tiffany: Absolutely. For me, indie was so much more appealing because it was a lot of standalone stories. It was stories from all over the place for all sorts of genres. I really dig horror and sci-fi and stuff like that, and that’s where I could find that. Marvel and DC just seemed like there was so much that I had to know in order to be involved with it, and I had this stigma in my head that I was like, “I don’t know. I kind of want to get involved with the character, but then I feel like I have to go back and read all these back issues on it. I just don’t know where to start with this.”

It really took Sal just sitting down and be like, “Here’s what happens. Things will start back over, or you can just start with an arc. As long as you understand the character to some degree, it’ll be okay. It’ll explain a lot as you go.” I definitely had that stigma where I was like, “There’s no way I can get into this because there’s so much history.” On the other perspective though, we also find now now for some reason, the number one book that we can get people into if they’re just capes alone is Saga. That’s it. That’s the one.

Sal: It’s a lot of crossover. We started out … We have a similar issue with Back Issues because it’s our flagship show. It’s one of the biggest ones we do. When I first started doing it, we’re like, “Okay, we’ll do them,” and then the next episode, I think I was like, “Let’s do Gen 13 from Wildstorm,” because I’m like, “This would be really hilarious to talk about and it’d be really great to explain to these two.” While it was, and I really liked that episode, it’s one of our lowest performers, and I’m like, “Why? It was an Image book. It was a big deal.” Well, it was maybe 20 years ago, but now nobody cares. Even DC doesn’t know what to do with those characters.

So we were kind of like, “Oh. I guess we can’t really do that many independent books on Back Issues either.” Although sometimes I’ll go, “Forget it. You know what we’re going to do? We’re going to do Bone from Jeff Smith. I don’t even care.” And it is a really low performer, but I still don’t really care and I’m really glad we did it. It’s kept us from doing a couple of indie books that I really, really enjoy. But you know what? Saga is the one show that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with any Spider-Man, Superman, Batman episode we do.

Matt: Do you guys ever get worried about burnout from doing the show? Like burnout from just reading comics and worry about it becoming a chore, or do you have it balanced to the point where you don’t get there and you still have the time to enjoy the love of comics?

Sal: It’s funny you should ask because we have a lot of peers in the YouTube comic scene, and we always talk about the shop. We’re trying to figure out what to do next or what to do better and how to improve. There was always talk of burnout, like, “Oh, man. I just want to talk about sports just once for a minute.” Here at ComicPOP!, I’ve never felt the burnout. I’ve only wanted to do more. There are some times when I just don’t feel like doing an episode, and then I just say, “We’re going to do an episode but in a couple of days.” I just wait until we … Normally we shoot on Mondays. I just go, “We’re going to shoot on Thursday,” and usually by the next day I’m ready to go again.

I’ve also noticed that I felt a lot of burnout when we used to have to move around a lot. When we used to shoot the shows, we had to go to a comic book store and it was mainly up to the retailer’s discretion when we could shoot and how and all the provisions that were involved with that. Once we removed that element, the whole thing became a lot less stressful.

There’s never been a day where I’m like, “Oh no, we have to shoot like four episodes in a row or we have to shoot something else.” I’m always excited about something new or about trying an idea or just making the stable of shows that we have now. I’m like, “Okay, time to do Off the Rack,” or “Okay, this is the book we’re going to do, and I think we’re really going to like it.” I find I still have the same level of enthusiasm. My fear is that there will be burnout from the other side. I’m worried that our audience will be like, “Ugh. Another one about these guys and they talk about this thing. Another one about this. Can we not talk about this for a minute?”

Tiffany: I know for reading comics, like whenever we have to read them for Off the Rack or if I’m just picking up something for myself, I haven’t really felt that. There was one point where I got close, and it was when we were covering conversions. I have never felt like reading a comic book was a chore until we got to that. I was like, I don’t know if I can keep doing this. Balance-wise, I also play video games. Even sometimes if we’re doing something just for a show, if it’s something like researching or whatever or for some reason I’m doing Back Issues that week, I balance it with video game play.

Sal: You can just obliterate a few people if you feel like.

Tiffany: Whatever works I guess.

Kara: You’ve had a lot of interaction with the comics community and your own fan community over the course of running this YouTube channel. What are the kinds of things that you’ve learned? What insights do you have from your specific viewpoint, and do you have a favorite fan interaction?

Sal: Insights. From the industry perspective, everything’s cyclical. You’ll see a lot of trends come back, and not everyone knows it or is aware of it because there are so many new people that have come into comics. People keep talking about comics are dying, and I don’t see any evidence of that. While the sales are not where they were 20 years ago, that’s because they were inflated, and there was a speculator’s market. Now that that’s been weeded out, the numbers are pretty stable. It’s funny how Marvel was the king of sales ten years ago, and now DC’s kind of taken over that front with Rebirth and everything. That doesn’t mean that Marvel’s in trouble or is going to try to sell all their characters to Warner Brothers. There’s no … Everything that you thought you … You know how all new, all different Marvel became the same old Marvel that you remember from five years ago? That’s kind of a trend that I’ve noticed big time when it comes to the industry. Out of that, you’ll get some really fresh blood and some new creators, and they give you some really, really dynamic stories. That Doctor Strange book is crazy good, and Vision and so forth.

As far as fan interactions go, I’m always floored. I’m not used to it in any way when we do bump into fans or members of the Population. We call it the POPulation because we’re ComicPOP! I think they picked that name. I think a majority of them were like, “The POPulation works for us.” I’m like, “Okay, we’re going to call it that. Don’t get tired of it.” Whenever we run into members of the POPulation, they’re always really, really excited and really enthusiastic. It always blows my mind.

We’ll get letters. I had to get a PO Box because people kept asking, “Can we send you a letter or a postcard or something?” I’m like, “Yeah,” but I also have to be careful about giving out my home address, so we had to get a PO Box. Every week I go there, it’s always really exciting and it’s always really humbling to get a letter. We just read I think three or four letters this week when we were shooting, and they were all really complimentary and very positive.

Matt: That’s blowing my mind. Do these people have email? I mean this is great but..

Tiffany: I know, right?

Sal: They hand write letters with notepads. It’s nuts. They’ll adorn the paper with their own drawings or stickers. It’s really amazing how creative our fans are and how comic books attract that level of creative person. It’s really fun.

Tiffany: I think for me, industry insights that I’ve noticed being a part of the whole thing is that, if there’s a movie coming out, any comic book that you’re worried about some major change happening to, it will be over by the time that movie is out.

Sal: Jim Gordon is Batman, until there’s a new Batman movie, or Dr. Octopus is Spider-Man until there’s a new Spider-Man movie.

Tiffany: For fan interactions, I love meeting our fans, absolutely. Any opportunity that we have to meet them … They’re amazing people, and they’re just fans of comics and they just happen to enjoy listening to us. That in and of itself is a wonder, but even the comments on the videos. Sometimes you’ll get really negative things, but the positives always outshine that.

I was left a comment on one of our Back Issues, and I stopped everything I was doing while I was reading this. It hit me so hard because the person had been through a lot personally and the book that we were doing hit home for them. It happened actually the Saga, Volume 2. I forget that I just enjoy these stories and we all enjoy these stories and we’re just talking about them, whatever, and all comics will probably have an emotional impact for someone. Someone’s always going to find a book out there that hits them in a way. It’s personal for them, their own experiences, whatever.

It’s funny in that same episode, we’ve never had this on ComicPOP!, but one of the members of the team ended up crying during part of the story that I was telling them. It’s just that kind of thing, where I’m like, “These people out there, they’re people and they love comics.” The stories, if they haven’t heard about them yet or if they’re experiencing it for the first time, it’s going to hit them sometimes in just the right way. I’m really glad that we get to be a part of sharing that with them.

Matt: There’s a part of me that thought you were going to say someone left a comment because it related to them that a Symbiote attached to them and they wanted revenge.

Tiffany: If that happened, I’d be like, “Okay. Just going to private message you. You might want to talk to someone about that. I don’t know who you call. There has to be a number somewhere though.”

Matt: What are some channels that you guys enjoy or you seek out that you really enjoy what they put out, whether it be comics or otherwise?

Sal: When it comes to comics, I always check out our colleagues over on The Weekly Pull, Comicstorian, Comics Explained, It’s Super Effective, Caped-Joel. When it comes to looking for new ideas, I always look … Because I work with these guys, they always challenge me and encourage me to come up with something new or help me touch on a trend or an idea that really, really will help grow the channel in some way.

When it comes to creativity and coming up with something else, I always look in another direction. This is what the comic book guys are doing, but what are the other guys doing? What are the movie guys doing? Red Letter Media is a huge influence for me. I just love what they do, and I love how they do it and how they make brilliance seem so effortless while also redefining levels of sarcasm.

Kevin Smith’s also a huge influence of mine. The fact that he jumped into YouTube was like, “Oh good for you, man. Welcome to the pool. It’s a varied but large one.” Those are some of the places I always look.

Tiffany: I really enjoy Good Mythical Morning. I love Rhett and Link. I love the charisma that they have. I love their interactions. I just love those guys, and I like to think that, especially the three guys on our channel, have the same kind of interactions and comfort that those two have. Then on a completely different spectrum of things, I watch a lot of Simon’s Cat and Cooking with Dog.

Matt: What about reading? What do you guys read that maybe you haven’t talked about on the show? What do you recommend to people, maybe outside of the Sagas, that they should read that you don’t think they are?

Sal: For me, I always go to those staple books. It depends on what you’re looking for or what you’re interested in. People are always asking me, “I want to get into comics. Where do I start?” and I always go like, “What kind of movies do you watch, or what kind of books do you read, or what kind of genres do you like?” People usually say, “I want to get into superheros,” and I’m like, “Well, here are the best ones,” and I throw them at Kingdom Come or Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns. Then when it comes to specific characters, I’ll be like, “Okay, well you’ll want this run.” If people want to get into Spider-Man, I go, “Okay, you want to start with J. Michael Straczynski’s Happy Birthday run. That’s a good place to kick things off.”

As far as newer books, I really, really want to like Tom King’s Batman, and I’ve been kind of into it, but it didn’t hit me over the head the way his vision did. I was like, “Wow! You took a character I do not care about at all and made a compelling book that I need to know more about and need to read immediately once it comes out.” I also like Mark Waid and Chris Samnee’s Black Widow book. I think that’s a really good book that no one’s reading. That’s what you find a point on it. I’m sad to see … I love that character. I think especially with the movies, they’ve made Black Widow into something of a household name, yet she has no movie and her series keep getting cancelled. The last one was so good, and this one is also, just in a completely different way, really, really good. Those are a couple of the books that I’m like, “Wow! Those are really, really good and they’re still coming out.” I also really want to read that female Blade book that they promised was going to come out and never did.

Matt: I don’t even remember that one.

Sal: It was … Yeah. If you Google it, you’ll get one image and be like, “Whoa! I don’t even know what that’s supposed to be.”

Matt: What about you, Tiffany? What do you recommend to people to seek out that maybe they’re not reading?

Tiffany: I always say Cullen Bunn’s Harrow County. I love that book. It is a beautiful story. The art is spectacular on it. It’s a delight to pick it up. It always is. I absolutely love it. Also Brian K. Vaughan’s Paper Girls. That book is spectacular, and we just got it back. Oh my God, he’s so good at writing a mystery and creating and world-building in general. Great book. I got to say, this is I guess kind of an older one, but one of those, for me, an emotional gut-punch of a book. It’s one volume, it’s I Kill Giants by Joe Kelly. What an amazing book. If you haven’t picked that up, just go out and buy it. Just go to Amazon right now.

Matt: Yeah, you talk about crying while reading a comic book, there you go.

Tiffany: Yeah. Head over to comiXology, check it out there. Oh my God. It’s a black and white book. That’s what’s so amazing. It’s just a black and white book. I’m so narrowed by when it’s colors, I’m like, “Ooh! Look what the colorist did.” This book blew me out of the water.

Kara: Every other suggestion you just had had either Matt or I taking turns to close our eyes in rapturous wonder in appreciation for your picks.

Sal: Tiffany’s the quality.

Matt: Well, I appreciate you guys taking time out. Hopefully everyone that is listening subscribes to your channel and finds out some new books that maybe we don’t talk about each week. We really appreciate you guys coming on.

Sal: Thanks, man.

Tiffany: Thanks for being a part of comiXology. Geez.

Matt: Anytime!