We chat with criminal defense attorney Ashley McMahan who shares stories from her career as a prosecutor and defense attorney while debating the more nuanced issues with justice as we’ve seen it implemented in America. The conversations becomes an informative and irreverent reflection on legal policy, net neutrality, Southern culture, casual arson, and one loudmouth CNN host.
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Podcast Supplement – Net Neutrality – Ignorance Is Not A Point of View
There’s a lot of hyperbolic opinions shared about net neutrality at the moment (or a few months ago, I may be crazy late to the game here) and I don’t think our reflection on the policy in today’s episode does enough to inform the situation.
Also we belittled Nancy Grace’s ridiculous show, so here’s links to the episodes we mentioned:
2 Chainz speaking sense on drug policy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e25in2BNo48
Nancy’s stats guy has ALL the data (notice the changing blue screen background)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbIplIIJTP4
Here’s the steps that brought us to broadband’s reclassification as a common carrier:
1) Senator Ted Stevens describes the internet as a “series of tubes” and argues for the right of broadband carriers to charge tiered service levels to content providers, what many described as an “internet fast lane”
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/uo1ore/headlines—internet
2) In protest many take a stand in favor of net neutrality, a policy that guarantees equal treatment of any data flowing through internet service providers. This would prevent broadband carriers from giving preferential treatment to preferred businesses and opinions.
3) Obama campaigns in favor of net neutrality and The FCC under his administration adopts net neutrality as official policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Open_Internet_Order_2010
4) In 2014 The US Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit strikes down net neutrality as a policy on the technicality that the FCC may not regulate broadband carriers in this way unless they were reclassified as common carriers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications_Inc._v._FCC_(2014)
5) Netflix begins paying Comcast for greater access to their customers. Netflix later protests Comcast’s proposed merger with Time Warner Cable http://qz.com/256586/the-inside-story-of-how-netflix-came-to-pay-comcast-for-internet-traffic/
6) Many lobby the public to voice their opinion to the FCC on reclassification of broadband services.
6a) John Oliver encouraging internet trolls to post inflammatory opinions to fcc.gov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU
6b) Cartoonists fearing government intervention in the internet http://agoodcartoon.tumblr.com/post/112510314430/area12-agoodcartoon-virulenthearts-brook
6c) Commenters belittling those previous cartoonist for their depiction of the issue https://www.techdirt.com/blog/netneutrality/articles/20150306/16215930234/cartoonist-has-no-idea-how-net-neutrality-works.shtml
7) FCC head Tom Wheeler, former telecom lobbyist, announces the reclassification of broadband carriers in order to enforce net neutrality, as required by the US Court of Appeals. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/technology/net-neutrality-fcc-vote-internet-utility.html?_r=0
8) In response, Netflix CFO David Wells comments “We were hoping there might be a non-regulated solution.”
8a) In speculation, Variety quotes this opinion from Google about telecommunications policy written for antiquated media as a possible reason for this comment.
One unintended effect of the FCC regulating Internet services under old-style phone rules is that it might let ISPs demand they be paid by upstream content companies — by default — for “edge services,” Google warned in a filing with the commission last month prior to the vote.
“To the extent the Commission encourages the falsehood that ISPs offer two overlapping access services and instead of just one [i.e., for downstream users], or the fiction that edge providers are customers of terminating ISPs when they deliver content to the Internet, it may encourage such attempts at double-recovery,” Google said.
How the FCC’s new “Open Internet” order specifically classifies the status of edge-service agreements is not fully clear, as the agency has not released the actual order yet. But in a press release announcing the vote, the FCC said, “Under the authority provided by the Order, the Commission can hear complaints and take appropriate enforcement action if it determines the interconnection activities of ISPs are not just and reasonable.”
http://variety.com/2015/digital/news/netflix-cfo-pleased-with-fcc-title-ii-ruling-although-its-preference-would-have-been-no-broadband-regulation-1201446282/
9) Some of the public freak out about government intrusion into the internet (citation needed)
10) Tom Wheeler tells telecom industry to deal with it http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/tom-wheeler-tells-cable-industry-to-stop-complaining-start-competing/
My opinion is that the public is better served by the FCC’s decision. I believe more strongly, however, that any stated opinion needs to understand how the hell we got here in the first place.
-MG
Well I’ve been dealing with this like literally been dealing with it for like three or four days now so I always wear them did you. I don’t know why you needed to go. I wasn’t too concerned whether indeed. And they didn’t say it was cancer so I was reasonably confident it really not and that’s actually shocking I had never seen that and it was that sometimes the sort of cancer from neck pain will say meningitis. So absolutely yeah it will kill you faster than cancer too. So they basically ground zero. That’s right. Yeah you get all the good stuff from where them day so when I go into doctor he goes to the usual rigamarole and he says you have allergies no do you sniff cocaine I was like no. All right so when I look in years and I swear to god he looks in there for like thirty seconds. And he actually is dying or here I’ll just type your problems here into a weapon did so as you have network connectivity programs without a Parks and Rec. Yeah that was prosperous and I was improvised as an improviser. I think that was one of them. Like apparently he always sneaks one or two in there. There was yeah I saw one where he did where Leslie was saying OK we’re going to do this want to pitch it was a real comeback story right and then there was a big comeback people people yell names and he’s like a concussion and she’s like Yes or I don’t know how she’s a comeback story. And he’s like oh she had some Come on her back in the video. They cut out they cut that out that will hurt me. Blooper reel. Yeah I kind of figured that might have got really concerned now that man has collapsed in the middle of his story here. Well that’s like not getting back to it later that’s like the kid in health class who was famous while we’re talking about fainting and go on like before there was someone with medical expertise here to save the day. You have two lawyers a software engineer. Nobody here is helping anyone. I assume I’m dying of everything. I mean cutthroat industry is exactly. If you are dying of everything and everyone around us constantly outages murder us and take everything we have. Metaphorically I suppose I like I like imagining a little house of cards. Oh that shout I love that show everything about it every youth has a center is as good as to have to say I haven’t quite finished Season three yet though so I’m still midway through season three. I meant said earlier that came with friends is really setting the bar high for artistic pornography. Yes if you don’t see a nipple on that show it’s not a good episode. Yeah yeah I mean it’s funny because you see good acting in there and you’re like I don’t think that’s the only reason you’re sick. Something tells me that you signed an agreement to me you were going to be topless and then not complain about anything. So here’s a funny thing on agreements. I heard that they shot several the Ork battle scenes of New Zealand. The Lord Of The Rings in a place that was actually a New Zealand military testing ground. Oh yeah and they had live mind that they were actually still like minds of missiles there and shit I mean I don’t know what kind of agent you have to have if you’re one of these actors that says yeah that’s OK Send us a bunch of money will take ten percent you know cool if he goes into a minefield How is that a breach of everyone’s contract to be like fighting orcs in a live ammunition field of like ancient mines are about to explode. I know for that amount of money that they’re being paid I’ve got an act of God I mean you’re used to a certain degree of risk whenever you enter in any sort of contract. It’s much like the the stormtroopers working on the Death Star I mean they knew they were getting into. Those were independent contractors you know are they independent contractors or were they in a dark ally Israel right now I don’t know I bet every clone of general that as soon as it comes right out of the machine to say OK no sign here to join the army. This is great. We’ve just heard. We segue into our professional careers. Oh look at that you know who are with today. My name is Ashley big man I’m a criminal defense attorney right here in metro Atlanta and what’s naming a law firm. Ashleigh McMahon law. Holy crap I know you have regular radio voice when you’re promoting. So yeah you got to do that and I had to do that with actual McMahon defending Atlanta criminals. Yes Only Atlanta criminals they’re not criminals. They’re you know I just I wish we lived in a society where that was still true but that is not the case because no one innocent ever gets put in a lineup. I’ve never once been accused of a crime I did not commit. That doesn’t really speak very highly for criminals in general if you’ve never been put in a lot of them because you’re not saying that you’re not engaged in any criminal activity at any point in the day right. I can’t I can either confirm nor deny those allegations I don’t look at data that’s a perfect answer I wish you were one of my clients. So how do how does everyone in the world look suddenly now that you like just professionally or the dirt like a cover up or defender. I tell you the color of the dirt I was like yeah yeah yeah yeah I got the dirt on everyone. Everyone you could do professionally with See that’s what’s great about attorney client privilege. I can’t I can’t reveal any saying of course you can reveal anything but does your relationship with individuals suddenly changed to having Oh well I will say that it’s different but it’s mainly this is it really from being a defense attorney this is from starting out as a prosecutor because when you start out in prosecution you handle every single case in a courtroom as a defense attorney I think I had the luxury of being able to pick and choose my clients and I actually really care about my client’s cases the types of cases where I sit up at night and think about them and care about their family and know them and know them personally. Counsel for John Grisham novels meadow Exactly. Yeah that’s what we all spin to God Now God bless John Grisham he did more for our profession that in one sense Judge Learned Hand. People learned a hand he was actually a judge. Yeah it was sort of the thought of me when I was like Judge hand and then you see Judge Elden you learned I was like you name a better office workers the CIA are always praising him Fleming for making them look like you have an interesting life you know that Tom Clancy Tom Clancy did good job Jack Ryan. Yes yes he did absolutely. And you get what I haven’t but the technical details of the entire thing for ten pages and see the thing is that you learn how to read people very quickly at least in this job but I’d say I mean would you not agree that that’s true in any area of law. No absolutely not I am I am woefully naive of all of my claim its claims and I just I I buy it hook line and sinker because if I don’t if I don’t believe you have expect anyone. Why Actually that’s a good part of you don’t believe anyone’s bullshit then you know how do you expect a judge to believe their bullshit that’s the same excuse like because same thing where it’s like the person the top is I don’t want to know what happens you know like don’t tell me if you don’t let me just believe in you that I will project that belief here but if I know too much I can’t properly do it. See now now I don’t feel that way as a criminal defense attorney I’m the person you should tell where the bodies are buried Union I can’t tell anybody your Saul Goodman. Yes You got it all figured out. Listen here’s the plan. Yeah right I’m on your side I’m no longer you know we’re going to shades of grey. At least I’ve got to say I was certain so less like criminal defense and more like criminal consultation. That’s basically what it is and you have no idea how frustrating it is when you ask a client like so what happened. I know you can talk to me and then later it turns out they have a like the bloody knife in their pants it’s like do you have an entire video of the crime being committed you know with them you know putting out their social security card and their driver’s license. I am doing it right. No no that was literally a joke and role models. Oh well there’s like got footage of him or those like I can’t believe the rich are deployed through this crazy was like yeah well I wish that were only in a movie and not stuff that actually happens but as a prosecutor you get the craziest stories because you have people lying to you all the time which is but it’s a really good way to train somebody to be a defense attorney because you instantly know when people are lying to you like for example when I was I was a prosecutor in Fulton County that’s how I started my career and I had a guy come in to court and he’s in a wheelchair and he comes in and he tells me he’s got a pretty simple case it’s some sort of traffic violation. I want to say speeding or failure maintain lay nothing where he’s going to jail right. And he comes up he wheels up to me and he says you know look I’d love to say that this was me and it was certainly you know a vehicle that is registered to me. But as you see on and the police report the man was standing in talking to police and it couldn’t have been me because I’m clearly handicapped Amman able to walk and I said well you know sir that would be a very persuasive argument had I not walked behind you through the security line this morning where you walked in. Hold it up your wheelchair and put it through the X. ray machine and then didn’t get back and it entailed five minutes to go before court started and then he got really indignant about it you know I couldn’t believe this. I’m like come on man like you just you know you can’t you can’t be a little bit better than ninety dollars fine I don’t want to only go so you know people people will tell you whatever they think you want to hear. So my mom got out she got she got hit with a little infraction and she oh I forgot to renew her tag on her license plate right and I almost feel like she got a ticket just to see. I mean like do something in court. So I so I go there always doing something one hundred dollar fine or whatever it was and I just march straight to the from the court I think this isn’t unique or smart and I go out there and I was like that and I did she cheat renewed the tag and other comment just like knock off some money it was like forty five bucks. I went and paid it on her behalf and then she shows up to court like right then because she was like five minutes late and I was like that I voted on she’s like we just made it go away I was like yes that’s exactly what I dare say even without a lawyer I am because it spread the word against my will to say that it doesn’t have to be privileges time right. Right yeah once fine things that are sure sue me haha I was only going as attorney client privilege he’s telling us that he lied to his mom about what he did encourage other oh man if I want to get in trouble she actually wasn’t ever single park. I’ll show you here that one instrument it may go away and forty five dollars a month. Well how do you like the city of Atlanta having had the opportunity to see some of the most positive elements. Well I mean Atlanta is a very. I’ve lived here forever. I would consider myself as much of a native Atlantan is you can be since nobody seems to be a native Atlantan unless you’re born in North sun where you are where you can a stone. Look at that. Yeah well the Grady babies. Oh that’s true. You see I was born in Miami so I can’t really say I’m a true Atlanta native but you know I’ve lived in midtown for the last twelve because it’s kind of a paradox when you’re trying to point to be made if you kind of should be transported right right. Well to answer your question though I mean I’m I love the city. You know you got to you got to love where you work in where you practice where you live warts and all you know if I just thought it was a great town that had no element of crime to a lawyer. It would be the fun in that. I mean I certainly would be able to make a living if nobody was committing crimes right or alleged to have committed a crime. That’s right. Thank goodness for they going through weird legislatures and cancelling misbehaving public to provide a large community of lawyers to exactly how there’s a lawyer saying yeah if you build it they will come. So we’re going to subjoin rules of law or law professions the same way we would feel like music because we’re talking about like a myriad of different heavy metal styles between like death black blah blah blah like law professions What’s the spectrum. I mean just with interest in the States probably the most specialized thing I’ve seen within my little branch is special needs planning attorneys that’s where you specialize in just doing that. Subsection D four eight trusts that protect the assets for like disabled children. City attorneys themselves aren’t special needs. Well there’s that’s up for debate. There is no rule saying you can’t be all right. Well yeah why discriminate right now right here I mean why is there like is there someone like even within DUI It’s like I only handle like you know it’s like Ford. Really under the umbrella of criminal there are people that just handle DUIs and some people that handle really only capital felonies maybe just murders or aggravated batteries things like that. I’ve I have yet to meet somebody that is so nice that they’re just just you know I only do child molestation cases and that’s it. I actually know where who got a name for himself because he won one here I got some guy off on child molestation rehabs and really not how you want to put that. Yeah I miss him if he wins that case like some other accused molester comes up and like he was like I can’t really justify this unless I charge you double what I do because frequently. You see we see both of those cases no matter what the facts or things are mandatory sentencing and everything like this you know you only hope you don’t have a difference. Well that’s the problem with a lot especially drug charges and criminal law there’s mandatory minimums and that’s how you end up getting what is basically a culture of induced plea bargaining. So whereas years before they had mandatory minimums you’d get somebody who was willing to take their case all the way to trial and to fight it because they really believe they were not guilty of the crime. And now you have a lot more statistically defendants who are willing to take a plea to a crime that they did not necessarily commit that they still maintain their innocence about because if they go to trial and the prosecution has enough of a case and we don’t know is beyond a reasonable doubt. But you know it’s not beyond every doubt and if they think they can prove it they’re looking at twenty years minimum and the prosecution offers them you know ten years serve to you know a lot of times you’ll get you’ll get clients are like Nah I’d rather just take the two. Has it ever gone up on the Supreme Court. No I don’t think so. I’m unaware family has a data these are like legislated like statutes with mandatory slings and the judge’s hands are tied in sentencing on that you know there’s a there’s a minimum that they can go for. OK So that would require like Supreme Court intervention on the idea of like a mandatory right. But it’s because it’s just become such a big a huge problem that it’s almost like you’d have to take apart the whole system and restructure it to fix that and make it worth it taking apart a system that most politicians and judges and legislators believe works. Well how does that not violate due process. I mean if you’re if you’re creating a system through mandatory minimum sentencing or any sort. A man in a mandatory sentencing How has there not been at least one case somewhere where someone who was totally innocent all the facts point towards them being innocent but because of like you know run and gun prosecutor they just they took that too I got one for an exact case exactly like that where essentially the kid downloads a mislabeled pornographic video through it because law has a member that yeah yeah yeah it was mislabeled and it was child pornography frame and the only thing this makes sense for as if it was like a head F.B.I. honeypot or something because they know they can do this and everyone they contact about this is saying there is nothing the judge can even do to help you here just by having it in your possession. Right well that’s that’s also the difference between child porn or pornography cases and other types of drug crimes or you know let’s even take murder you know it doesn’t really require intent. It’s just that you are in actual possession of it. That’s it that’s all you need. So there’s nothing you can really fight on than if you’re found in possession of it there’s a whole lot to argue. There’s really just have to bargain with you hopefully have a clean record your sympathetic defendant. But that’s not always the case. Well remember the entire idea of justice described. It’s kind of like a difference between a punishment system and a rehabilitation system right. And so like if you stole get your hand chopped off that be punishment you know versus now we have we believe we can change the contents of a person to to repair them or to heal them or find out where this came from. Is that not what rehabilitation is for is that what we have as a structure now display since well we have the highest incarceration rate for nonviolent crimes of any developed nation. So I don’t know that that would be exactly qualified rehabilitation. Certainly a lot of money to be made in offering people probation and having subcontractors come in the counties and offer their probation services usually it’s contracted out through a private company that offers is the lowest bidder and gets all the business of the county or the city or state whatever whatever court you’re in and what they will do is offer what would be considered and I’m using air quotes here rehabilitation services like drug counseling or mandatory anger management counseling or family violence intervention programs and you know on paper a lot of these programs are a very good idea. You know they make the general public feel better about what’s happening you know and it’s not just putting people in jail for something quick or everything costs money. Everything comes with a price and they’re not always affected but that may be what we’re actually buying this public sort of spread. As opposed to actual repair right. We’re not yes. Yeah you hit the nail on the head what we’re buying is having the public that question what’s happening in sales that big deal good and sure you know I mean like we’re giving you the illusion of security. I call long citizens nothing to see here. Intruders are probably right I mean like ninety nine percent of cases you’re not going to blow up a plane the henchmen probe and true people would probably be happier with a little more security theater just so long as the theater was better I guess. Airplanes there are a lot of they could at least go in miles but I mean like OK so like Max Max brought up the question that I’ve never been able to reconcile. Give me a definition of justice that is not in some way synonymous with revenge. Yeah that is tough because well a lot of people feel that what they view as justice is really vindication. That’s how you get that’s what a lot of people who are proponents of the death penalty use as an argument. You know that if you have killed somebody you don’t deserve to live you deserve to have not only to be put to death but to have the same maybe punishment inflicted on you that you inflicted on your victims and it’s a running theme throughout most court systems that this it’s a very human idea it’s an emotional response it’s not a critical thinking response to it but we’re emotional beings and that that’s just how it’s going to be at the same time if you don’t have a proper emotional response you get right that’s true. Yeah exactly. Seen plenty of people protesting on the highway and trying to shut down just like an expression that there is no effective platform to express frustration with the system other than just tearing everything down. Right right but it’s funny because you’ll see the same people saying you know why are we incarcerating somebody over you know let’s say marijuana or marijuana possession with intent to distribute. OK so you’ve got quite a bit of but on you let’s say and where letting somebody who say beat up his wife and has been caught for once but has been probably been doing it a whole bunch of times let him walk away. Why are we putting these nonviolent criminals in jail and let other people so in your mind do like severe punishments. Effective method of preventing bad behavior because I think that’s the theory behind. If you’re asking for my opinion or what has been the statistical scientific analysis on it I’m giving you a chance to soapbox whenever you feel like there has there has been no scientific study that has proven that harsher punishments reduce the amount of violent crime and there is the fact the matter is if you’re going to commit a violent crime you’re probably not thinking about hey they just made the mandatory minimum for this crime when he was five years one of the pros and cons of me stabbing this guy right. Let’s think about that for a while. Every What if everybody who is going to stab somebody like in a bar let’s say in a fight sat down and wrote down the pros and cons. Yeah I mean we probably would have a whole lot of stabbings. You know well is there a way to prevent stabbing him. We just fundamentally like cut off from trying to not have the sovereign right I think you know you touched on something earlier you know when you create these really harsh punishments punishments for very specific crimes I mean that seems to me like you’re trying to solve. Way too big of a problem with an instrument that has no business being there. I mean that the problem is that people are doing drugs. So then we criminalize it at the very top. I guess was Ronald Reagan who started the war on drugs. Right and you’ve filtered down from the top to the truth of all the various laws but at the federal and state level just coming in and attacking you you know attacking it like it’s like barbarians at the gate when the alley it’s a bottom up problem where you know the reason people are doing drugs is because the shit sucks in real life no one has ever sat around said let’s do some drugs and things are great except for maybe addicts but but even there they had to do the drug for the first time for some reason. So what we’re really looking at here is. Does the structure of our legal system is creating criminals just by merit of how it goes. That’s not really I was going out is like asking where is the problem you know is it possible to cure the problem with with a top down solution. Yeah the problem is that we’re hitting everything in the criminal justice system from the back and you know once the problems are even created our trying to correct it. That’s not a good way to go about doing something you know am I I have found that one of the biggest issues that we have is access to health care and especially the mental health care in this country because a lot of especially violent criminals or you know if you have somebody that’s committing a. See a crime that you wouldn’t if it isn’t money motivated like not going over a liquor store or some like that for cash you know if they’re really going to have a violent crime usually there’s been a lot of signs up to that point that this person may have some sort of mental problem and may not think about the consequences of their actions the same way your average Joe would and well through big data from an engineering perspective it’s like we can actually see like patterns of behavior be Facebook Twitter tree millions right. Can we can do. Pre-crime basically yeah but then you get into a really scary area this is a constitutional problem but a lot of times the only the only recourse if family members will have especially if let’s say you had you know a kid and they’re in their late teens and you’ve noticed some kind of abnormal behavior you think there may be a mental health problem. Once they hit eighteen there’s really nothing you can do until they get arrested and sometimes family will call the police will call the cops on their kids and say look you know please come arrest my son or my daughter because they’re a danger to themselves and to society and that’s the only option they have that she would be willing I mean recommend that as a method of reaching that I would never recommend that but I can understand why sir why some families have gone to that link but take those a kid that when shot all those people in the Batman movie theater. Yeah they that guy because it was stored stuff like that there’s a lot of science for usually people who are close to them mainly for family members and they’re really their hands are tied up on whether or not they’re able to do anything on the access to you know mental health care. It’s tight in this country have privatized health care I mean I feel like that’s that’s definitely one big thing is you know access to mental health care and number two is in any free society. It’s like there’s bad things are going to happen. Someone somewhere is going to take advantage of it and you never hear about it would never affect you except for the fact that the modern media is going to tell me that that story so I mean if you’re telling children I’m sorry that’s not what I think I think the guy who went to the elementary school and shot her. Also there is that yeah several but that’s just not going to happens with just enough frequency in our country that is just maybe it’s access to guns maybe it’s just the American mentality. I don’t know what it is and frankly doesn’t really matter what the source is like that just kind of comes with us. Yeah and then you get a lot of people that are trying to self medicate you know with narcotics and things like that and that will end up in jail for you know just being in possession of this types of drugs where all they needed in the first place was either just a hand or someone listen to a little yes some sort of counseling and they may not have access will respect. Let’s back up here because you know I said a bunch of things right there. I didn’t crash well and there’s access to guns there’s access to mental health counseling. But then let’s compare and contrast with China Russia and Brazil three countries that I don’t think I have as many guns as we do at least into the public but they certainly do not have better health care than Americans. Yet you don’t you don’t hear about. Serial killers and and shootings quite well the I think that may be the issue you don’t hear about it I would expect to hear about mass that from China or Russia what was the other country and in Brazil it has a lot of poor people in Brazil and you know it. Yeah Brazil relies on tourism while in there I would immediately I was already dead. Yeah there is a big difference between like what we think of the place and what is happening. So like Canada why don’t they have a lot of shootings because they have a poncho guns they’re really sorry about everything. It’s too cold to shoot anybody right. Well I’ll actually I would. Question about the earlier point was that perhaps in this country seeking mental health treatment a catch twenty two. I don’t I think there’s a stigma to it amongst American culture that may be unique to our our nation. So like let’s say that it is available. But suddenly by seeking that kind of help are you barring yourself from access to parts. Yeah I mean I think you can certainly get a label among your peers and maybe not as severely as you’ll be barred by being jailed for drug infractions. Right right. But again they’re not making a pros and cons list so we can do you that we need to you know hand out like tea tables with present time you’re thinking about murdering someone to let’s stop and take a step back and make a pros and cons to this effect one that motherfuckers too. I’m on the lamb but this is a complex right. Imagining is like that the Apple Apple glass or Google Glass would likely be popping up and saying it appears that you want to order something. Oh man well that’s not suddenly where Google is monitoring all of our stuff and saying Right maybe think about this. Do you just do one of you know the more you know P.S.A. star about our heritage that I always imagine Clytie popping up for like it looks like you’re writing a manifesto. Here’s some stuff like this and there are little ways that actually are kind of effective when well it’s going to be so hard to make art in this country at some point we’ll get all this like preventive measure. But there was a point where there’s still in this way Google was the first one that if you search for means of suicide the first result was the suicide hotline saying please look for help instead. Right and then it tells you to kill your mind. But yeah that’s not very helpful. So do you. Do you deal with a lot of like do you try to suppress evidence routinely deal with Fourth Amendment issues. Yeah all the time I almost I mean if you’re having a motions hearing as a criminal defense attorney I’d say you’re almost ninety ninety percent of the time arguing a Fourth Amendment type of if I am going to have to risk one step backward so suppressing evidence from a defensive position what would this imply. Because it sounds a little bit like a football play where running out of the court room with whatever we can’t physically steal out of the prosecutor’s hand seems like a game show where all the contestants go into the grocery store and they try to put as much stuff in their car is as fast as possible because a lot of white collar crime then you go into one of those glass chambers where like the money is flying around. Yet now it is a shredder document you have to grab as many as you can. Live more question. We have something called the fruit of the poisonous tree. So and this is the Fourth Amendment is a wonderful thing it protects average citizens it is fantastic it basically says the government cannot and reasonably search or seize anything from you. It’s a cute answer so how do you know what your I will about do you have another four hours of this broadcast going to go to her something called the one Fourth Amendment was only about a quarter of it remains. Well people have made different arguments with it like all areas of law there’s always an argument to be made on the Fourth Amendment. So it’s just it’s a great thing that basically ensures that police officers if they’re going to investigate you or if they’re going to bother you or hold you or take your time or your property they have a certain procedure that they have to go through and they have to make be able to establish probable cause and if they cannot do that then everything is gone. You know forget it. They can’t use it against you in court and that’s how you get a lot of cases dismissed. So. Because force do their job right. Exactly. Or els Yes which I don’t is not a bad thing and I know a lot of cops I’m friends with a lot of cops and you know most of them do their job correctly ninety percent of the time you know but it’s like any job that they don’t want those ten percent of cases where they know they screwed something up going to court because nobody wants to sit on the stand and be embarrassed about you know not doing something correctly. Well now we’re going to body cams on them everywhere. That’s going to be a whole new I don’t know what’s going to happen. Are defenseless people going to have like access to that or like behavior changes when you know your observed. So I mean we see it with DUIs and especially behavior of officers. You no longer live in a world where you know it’s not a three hundred seventy is where your parents might be driving home from you know having a couple of drinks out with friends you know they’re in their late teens or the local sheriff shows up and says All right I’ll follow you kids but you know I’m not going to take you to jail on this one just make sure you don’t do it again it’s not bad. Now that dash cam imagining that there’s no like community discretion right of this kind of stuff a lot of times with the OK so giving. Really forcing police officers to wear body cams. Also it not only protects people but it from police brutality. Sure but it also takes away any discretion from the officer as a human being to make commonsense decisions on stuff and to not absolutely follow the law to the tee and most of the time that means arresting you out of an abundance of caution which I think cuts both ways. Well it sounds like being a good police officers are very much like sort of Morgan in a creative process of like in a situation like knowing how to just go and control absolutely I mean most of the police officers I know are fantastic at being personable and figuring out whether or not somebody is a threat from them. Very Beginning in talking people down you know I mean they work with people all the time and a lot of people that you and I really would come in contact with maybe wouldn’t want to do on a daily basis. And so now there are only choices are to be and I had to sit by the book to like robotic to the letter. If you are constantly observed. Yeah I mean I it also print again it’s it’s you know you’ve got arguments on all sides for it because some cops will argue well you know it protects the officer but it really doesn’t allow you to have any discretion. So earlier you described democracy while we were shooting the shit. Yeah. As the most succeeding failed method of government and governing. So for the best at least the best method of all the worst methods that we’ve come up with as you would be well it sounds like we were all conscious of his balls or his rights or will just each other and at least the situation in this case pretty well actually I’ve heard people say oh our democracy is the best because it’s so efficient Well not really a dictatorship is actually the most efficient form of government quite efficient you know the reason the democracy is is good and protects individual’s rights is because it is so inefficient you know because it has bureaucracy and it takes forever to get anything done. Unfortunately that’s also the root of a lot of problems. So if you’re held in detention for this duration suddenly. The aspects of your life will go on you are falling apart around you. Exactly exactly. I was challenging from the from the stance that you’re creating laws to govern humans and what we don’t abide by. Nice easy to measure natural laws like gravity. You know it’s going to run thing every single time same thing with all the other forces of nature. We wake up one day and feel like having some eggs and then after that the next day maybe not I mean that’s that’s just human nature. So whenever we create these laws. It’s really more like guidelines like please don’t kill anyone unless you’re a military or police officer or if it’s in self-defense or if you screw on your wife and in Texas I mean like I mean unless I was I for the most part don’t kill anyone. I thought it was just if they look at you funny in Texas is that not you know if you go to trial in Texas you’re not going to get them going off right you should know that. Yeah I mean. Wow OK So go back to the very beginning of an account I am making because we’re now down to the beginning of what you were saying what did you start with I had something stuck in my ear so with a doctor around and I now know that you know you know that when you’re trying to take the smell they kill people when you’re saying that if you’re right or. Humans don’t abide in the same way that police officers shouldn’t have to and more liberal procedure. Right right nothing one nothing is black and white in law. Really because you have people that write laws for mandatory minimum mandatory minimum. But you know everything is a shade of gray you can always make an argument somewhere but the problem is that you have the legislature writing laws you know and you can see the way the laws are written they have they have gone through eight different committees to try and get one sentence written so it can be misinterpreted by anybody and then you know you put it out there and you let prosecutors and judges and defense attorneys get to it and by the time they’re done with it. Inter-breeding what they think it means. It’s been totally flipped on its head so that’s another problem is that we have the people who are writing laws not necessarily being the ones that interpret them and that can go arrive very quickly. Sounds like an easy segue into the Affordable Care Act When I was going to ask her what we should do if we get pulled over that’s a complicated question. How drunk are you. Fairly fairly. What does that mean. Seeing double just had a kid who just God well man.mattress tags
obscenity as constitutional armor
city hall disputes
a line in the sand
arson: pros and cons
extradition policies
confederate flag license plates
1st amendment values
Stone mountain
Confederate Mount Rushmore
prison customer service
judicial corruption
representation of the mentally ill
punishment vs treatment
preventative measures vs personal privacy
war scholarship
Nancy Grace’s greatest hits
Can substantially address what I think most people know the legal limit is Point Oh wait right I mean I most most people have heard that so most people believe hey if I’m you know like a like an average size like your size Let’s say you know what six foot six one and they’re OK and if you have maybe two beers you’re probably not at a point of weight in a period of two hours right. I hope not. Right right and so you think OK I’m called to get my car and drive because I’m not at what the legal limit is in the state of Georgia. Wrong because in the state of Georgia and like most other states you have a constitutional right to refuse the state administered test waited the officer is going to ask for a blood breath or urine typically they’re asking for a breath test we have a constitutional right to refuse that so that’s a big problem right. So if we can’t get a number. Well the legislatures like Hang on will write another law that’s a catchall and it’s called DUI less safe. Meaning that you’re just less safe to operate a motor vehicle based on the fact that you can buy alcohol whatever level you’re at and if you refuse the state administered test the presumption in court is that you must have been over a point otherwise you would have taken that test the problem is there’s a huge disconnect between the general public out there who viewers never take the test you know no matter what you’re at. And oh I can only be arrested if I go over point oh wait. Well the legislature wrote the DUI less a flaw as intended as a catch all but some prosecutors will use that as an alternative to the point though a legal limit. So what’s the point having a limit I think that I mean I know throw the word unconstitutional around but Ifill’s unconstitutional how can it be unconstitutional because if I don’t burden you’re thrown the burden the burden around. If you’re presumed innocent if you’re innocent or proof. Guilty How does the government have the authority to sit there and say OK with DUI less safe we’re just going to assume that you are actually guilty of drunk driving or just too slick for our for our we’re allowed to make the inference a jury’s a Latin for we’re also saying that like even if there is a number of evidence they can just go with the other one any way they can. Yes although most juries if you come in and you say hey we got we gave him bread and the number is a point oh five you’re going to get an acquittal pretty fast so most prosecutors aren’t going to bother trying that case but a lot of times what you’ll see and I see this all the time in my practice is that somebody will come in and they’ll say look I really only had one glass of wine with dinner. There’s no way I was over the legal limit and I’m like well why don’t you take. Why don’t you take the test and you look at the video and they look great. They look you know they look sober is the judge sitting up there but you know the argument that the prosecution will make is well if they really were under the legal limit they would have taken the tests are the tests effect to the majority. After that’s a complicated question. There are a lot of experts who will say no they do not know that there’s a lot of factors there. One of the main arguments is melt algal So if you’re taking a breath test and you have maybe regurgitated within your mouth Well you blow into that machine you can register a higher blood alcohol content than what is actually in your blood because it’s not measuring your blood it’s measuring your breath and making an inference based on that. OK. Blood tests obviously are more accurate but again you can. This comes with DUI drugs a lot of people are on prescription medication for example Xanax. Sure somebody may be prescribed Xanax Amy take Xanax every day I think it’s you know that their doctor gave them a prescription they should be able to have it. Well if you’re driving down the road and you get pulled over and the cops. As if you take any medication today. Yes well I take their necks every day and then they take you for a blood blood test and say you have more and you even just slightly more than what is considered the therapeutic level which may not be what your doctor prescribed your doctor may have said you need more than the therapeutic level but forgot to tell you hey you can also get arrested for a DUI drugs when this even if it’s a prescription drug. People realize this stuff so let’s go back to a standard DUI if you if you refuse the roadside test but then go to the station and take that test. Does the prosecution so get the presumption that you would have been over the limit on the test. No the of the presumption only follows a what is termed a refusal and that really only applies to if you didn’t take the state administered test meaning the blood the breath or the urine test and chemical test. OK so yeah but that’s only at the station right. Right. OK OK OK. Now that does comport with I’ve heard before which is basically do not refuse the one that’s physically in the station. It’s a very common get an answer it really depends on how much alcohol you think you drank and then over how long of a period you were drinking. You know if you think you just had one or two beers with dinner and you’ve got you know a full meal and you’re like I’m nowhere near the legal limit then by all means please take the state administered test. But the thing is you are already placed under arrest for DUI less safe they catch all just in case by the time they get you to the station. You have a change of heart and you stand in front of the test machine and they go No I don’t think I’m going to do this. So you’re already arrested. You’ve already got criminal charges so a lot of people think what’s the point in taking this test now. You’ve already put me in handcuffs and told me I’m charged with DUI Now this is just going to add to it. So you know it’s hard to convince a lot of people in the moment hey maybe this test is in your best interest to take right now they’re like what’s the point. Do you think that the punishments. Do you want to match the crime. No but that’s totally biased because I just you know I have a lot of clients that get the lies. It depends it depends on the jurisdiction it depends on the prosecutor whether or not they have discretion and you know if if you’ve got you’re dealing with human beings. Some of the judge to the jury to the prosecutor to your your client. You now so it depends on if you’re working with all reasonable people they can be. Well it sounds like through the course of the conversation we’ve gotten ourselves to a pretty nasty place philosophically and that one we know behavior is not going to change from those most affected by drugs right to no matter what punishment we try to apply is not going to steer them in any way possible. And three that the structure of it in order to try to find the most dangerous is kind of catching everyone in the Med right. So idea we just set up camps everyone who gets arrested is now in a little camp and we just started walking them through the solution of mine. Rose will be the last time we have to do it maybe you should concentrate a little harder before you propose something like that these did something a lot like that as you know it was very efficient. But again you know not really what we’re looking for they were going to hopefully to bring some Let me How do you know we weren’t there. Good God. So the show is called Come Castro right. Very frequently we are asked if we are communists that actually this does come up with large Twitter campaign one of the first replies was are you communists and my reply was No not communist if anything more fascist libertarians. OK All right. I don’t like anyone’s got the joke and so do I don’t think I’m caster was that subversive of the name but anyone over the age of fifty. Thinks it is just talk. Totally like like my heaven but dude like I think our audience loves it just because of that. Well I don’t know if you controversial you know maybe any publicity is good publicity right. IMO Going to the show on Netflix. Their biggest enemy right now is Comcast and the oh you’re right about Fallon and their speed then everything absolutely and they did a whole rally to force the F.C.C. to like big dick all over the place right and then Netflix comes out and says they might have overstepped. They may have gone too far we wanted to know well can I sleep into neutrality. Yeah well what about it goes too far. It was just something about there was an opportunity for the mechanisms of how things are charged to kind of come from both ends. Well that’s what that’s what she said but more importantly the that was the conservative argument which was not really well received is that what they’re going to be regulating is the internal infrastructure like very little of it’s going to be throttling or anything like that it’s going to be more like. We’re on the look at how Google is doing things that’ll become the way and now whenever a new company wants to come in and they try and start doing things and then I guess an unregulated way it’s going to do for new innovators to come in and do what all wasn’t the main problem and that you know basically individuals and these companies like Netflix and Google came forward and said hey F.C.C. save us from you know these species that are totally going to overstep their bounds and slow down our speed by controlling them. The high right there I think it is you get all the say and were content as a bill. Yeah and areas like OK greybeard says he’s going to step in and do something and it turns out that the chairman of the F.C.C. was like a former lobbyist for Comcast. Thank you Tom Wheeler I think has always been that the kind of there was a little confused by Obama’s appointments. Right right. As kind of clashing with his public statements in regards to this path the principal knows surely is upheld by the policy that we have now. Something that there was an extra opportunity it was a really kind of split the baby situation where it wasn’t like the biggest win for everybody. No they needed a new jurisdiction the internet is different from other types of utilities it’s just a different thing it’s not the same as the railroads it’s not the same as water it’s it’s just a handy think it’s kind of thing it was a porter you know yeah you can you can make what we call them ports or you can make a very very close comparison to you know Ma Bell and into the phone line system and how that revolutionized the American economy and you know how we interacted with people. So it’s the same thing I think you can make the comparison but the but you just can’t know about the size of the well I mean I mean something like Amazon big this goes this far we see goes from a thing that you were doing with telephone especially the idea of copyright like everything I make that I have any income from. It’s exclusively control and in order to distribute that to people it requires making more copies for them to do at their site. That’s exactly our show works. Yes it’s all copyrighted. So now I should but I should not be recording this on my personal cell phone and then distributing not with a How do you know what Miles. Record this on your cell phone and then release ahead of time how do you do it not without express written consent of the N.F.L. they have to put that sort of every game. You’re not allowed to V.H.S. this fucking game. Oh yeah it reminds me of when you were kids need in you pop a V.H.S. and it’s a you know under penalty of them you know. Yeah I always thought the F.B.I. was going to come storming our house any minute and took that about a seriously is like a Do Not Remove the sticker from like mattress which I only until last year did I remove the tag from a mattress I think they added unless by the consumer. Yeah to the book and do they just stop being afraid so they would stop being a controversy that’s out there. Do that with a mattress Gestapo will come and take you from your home. I went to seventy support groups. I’m glad for that arrest. Oh is that what was the law like what was the point behind it was something about it was to stop the underground black market if you know you know when you get like you know I can’t I do you know an individual product at about packages as this unit not for individual resale. When I was in college I purchased a mattress that some old lady had died on but how do I know that is close by him and said Why don’t you have a problem calling the show Comcast really going to like that name to show how the New Deal was great right it’s a result of sixty five year old star to demand guys and you know you have I never heard a lot of that is not cast and you’ll be fine. Perfect and every agree with is on another cover a problem that might be down probably a trademark to I’m sure there’s a lot I don’t know maybe maybe just go I checked out. Here’s a question are we going to trade my problem by making a pot of Comcast for a name you know because it’s parody and it’s totally dark about affairs and so we are completely permitted to talk shit on the establishment you know what I think that I will just team together and will represent you know if it does happen this is what you can you too involved you know what. I’ll take your money in the ensuing lawsuit. How gremlins in my machine. Luckily that’s still one of the recording to see though that has been the fun part because we’ve got such a funny skillset of having met a Georgia Tech because it’s like well what are we doing we’re going to talk I can engineer this and you can just make sure that our speech is protected no matter what we fucking want his word is actually you know the funny thing is as long as we have seen enough. It then turns into a parody and satire so easy. Only that I actually and I know this because a pen and tellers bullshit right they talk about that all the time you’re like why do we use the word fuck all the time because we’re talking about corporations that can squash So what we’re going to actually defend ourselves. Yeah well you may not want a bunch of lawyers at your dinner parties you know we may not be the most fun people to hang out with a well meaning or kind of you know Scott I mean this is I know a lot of us but I don’t know where you’re getting any of this wrong all this isn’t even one of our most fun conversations will always have one in your midst. You know especially a criminal defense attorney. Always that one guy who’s allowed in the party we have a token lawyer Yanks generally offer the jobs are going to do them go I don’t want to give it a lot already clearly not longer just go on privacy rights in America I’m a landowner what. Yeah that won’t cause any problem that would be the vehicle are you and aren’t you going to court and just say that it was a land owner chair some guy making basically that exact argument for his castle he built in Hiram Georgia that is critical. That’s Chronicles thing going on in Hiram. Sorry guys I think you honestly built it when it was all incorporated and now they’re like expecting city tax. Well and he’s like No but he’s actually like he’s fighting city hall literally he is lying in the sand on this one and I’m like This is taxed. You’re not going to win this why couldn’t we write these rules down then you can screw it. So my my girlfriend’s father got into a bit of a dispute with the city of Rome and I’m listening to the story from her mother who has a very thick Polish accent and I totally totally was like as to my best of whatever I’m listening to her and she says that dad essentially he had seen had some sort of a violation with like a car that was kind of raggedy in the front yard is it sounds like a red and green I want to play anyway so what I heard her say Whoa. Does that rather than pay the ordinance he would rather burn down his neighbor’s house. Who reported him and saw us and I think that’s reasonable. You know start quoting and not just that he’s doing a pro con list this is good he sit down and think about it I actually like where is this is what stops arson we express that we want to commit arson we then consider the consequences of how we would get the tools to commit said R.S. Exactly so what it would cost to perform it very low. What it would cost him punishment very high. Right right. Can we express our rage now instead of with pliers thats a very calm and level headed approach to it. Sounds like a keeper and I hired a normal family man like this guy I think in the flames. So when I heard that they said that you are going to go ahead and burn as this guy’s house I said that’s great. They bring a knife to a gunfight. They bring a knife you bring a gun in the one years in the hospital you put one of theirs in the morgue OK she said. I totally misinterpreted that she was like No he said I will burn my own house down before I paid his fifty dollar fine and then I’ll skip off to Poland which I said Bravo Emmylou. That’s the mentality told the story of my dad and I don’t live in this area. Miley he’s like I love that I love everything about it’s going to burn in his own house now and we’re going to take one from the country. Rather a fifty dollar ordinance. Well the thing is I told him the truth there’s actually a non extradition policy for non-violent crime in Poland and Costa Rica’s So if you want to do it you can get away with it. Well we’re always going to have scaling are considered violent only if people die while he’s doing it do his own home. I don’t know actually or actually raises the really most salient point like it’s his own house. Yeah you know he did whatever he wants to with that property it would just be what I considered a nuisance to the neighboring property alling blight a nuisance. Really bothered me it was hot the other day we were barbecuing our dogs on his lawn and suddenly fire that’s been lasting for three years. Fell over to our side of the neighborhood. What is this house made out of. Like those things all in the forest in California. Let’s go out. Yeah my sister lives in L.A. right now. She waters are plants constantly what I’m just going to shoot an apartment he wanted out of them. BLAM. We’re going to run I don’t want to drink it but make sure my lawn is green. Yeah yeah no she doesn’t have a line and I don’t think you could keep a plant alive for very long. I mean I love you to death but you know she didn’t have a green thumb. It is funny how we have so many Nothing towns named after like epic places like Columbus OH yeah yeah you’re righ