Comcastrodors, please welcome video game insider Tim Lewinson to the podcast. Tim, senior designer for the Propaganda Games/Disney Interactive Studios TUROK reboot, has launched a Kickstarter campaign with three other creators for the graphic novel Savage Empire. Savage Empire, a story speaking to the crew’s love of dinosaurs, comes at a great time with the release of the new Jurassic World film, but deals with a much different theme: modern-day earthquakes rip portals open that bring prehistoric creatures back from the past. In this episode, we discuss researching the feasibility of sci-fi, the prospect of world-building in storytelling, and the interplay and balance of story, budget, and risk.
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Good evening Internet! Viva Comcastro! Viva la Revolution! We’re excited to introduce this conversation with Tim Lewinson. Tim is a writer out of Vancouver and with a long career in many fields perhaps most prolifically in the field of video games. He has credits and many of those AAA and independent game projects. Tim is in the final stretch of his Kickstarter campaign to finance a graphic novel he has written called Savage Empire. Through a series of disasters, dinosaurs have now overtaken Los Angeles. We learned a whole lot from him. Share perspectives on gaming art and surgery and everything else. You’ll also notice that Matthew couldn’t make this one so we’ve got our good friend Jarren who is an absolute super fan of gaming as a medium and we all had a fantastic time doing this. Tim even recorded a small plug for us. Let’s have some fun. You’re listening to Comcastro. OK So Savage Empire. Yeah what what it was come from like just love dinosaurs or oh yeah I mean it’s always been like a huge you know big you know love of dinosaurs for me you know and I’ve always been writing you know when I was at Disney you know contributing to story on Entourage too and it’s probably my most high profile project but you know it’s part of my creative work. You know I’m always writing like short stories on times of marking pitches and scripts as well you know I got a lot of a lot of movies in my head that I’d love to get made and written them out and and doing that right. So the story is Savage Empire and I actually started out originally as a game and then expand it to something that I thought was even stronger like to so the graphic novel one shot you know so I was yeah I wouldn’t turn down the chance to bring to the gaming space eventually but you know after writing and producing the the original page prologue which I will finish earlier this year. Max including that is part of the text. We’re two years for everybody. Hope it was on the right track and this was the best way to tell the story. So that’s because you’re up just after traffic world to set the second highest box office budget. What are you thinking that’s going to be some sort of screenplay for that others are. Well fingers crossed right and it is funny because before Jurassic or open it was like you know is this going to be any good let’s go back you know ten twelve years to the last tragic part three and and and you know the box office was continually going down you know is there really that love for dinosaurs like me I’ve always been here. All right well as a lot as a watcher of those movies I think a lot of dinosaurs never left it was the love of decently scripted and acted movies that may have dropped in the dressed part. Absolutely good story telling I mean I don’t know if you’re anything like me you might have been lost when you saw Dr Malcolm’s daughter doing gymnastics and taking Raptors through windows that was the low point of the series I think I am not the kind of guy to get up and yell at movie theaters breaking all those those those black stereotypes but I got up and I yelled at the screen how Canadian of you to get up and yell at the screen. Now incredibly unconvenient I know but I was I was just like what is this nonsense. You know and it would be great to be able to piggyback off that that down around a science as it were but come by this honestly you know working on Entourage. It does and it was like a really come to for me and a huge opportunity to not only pulling to immigrate loves you know games and dinosaurs but to be able to work on an IP that I’ve had huge respect for going back to the ninety’s. It’s one of those ips that appealed just because you know you had this minority protagonist who was in a world that outside of what he knows and having to struggle and survive and you know rescue friends all against this crazy backdrop I mean. Really resonated with me. And so the chance to work on it was a lot of fun. And then to be able to take you know that to the next level and say OK you know what would happen if that big one finally hit in Los Angeles. You know Senator his family went and now you’ve got this huge chunk of the California coastline basically just hanging on by a thread. Dinosaurs are now rolling around inside the zone and you know it’s just create is crazy action backdrop that just lent itself to telling all sorts of stories not just necessarily for this one shot but you know for other stories as well you know I look at it more like the you know the walking dead where you don’t necessarily have to have a specific hero besides Rick but you can tell a bunch of stories and because it’s really about the human interactions as opposed to necessarily Oh it’s all about zombies or it’s all about diners but it does make it a lot more exciting just funny that all my friends who love the walking dead are like can we get rid of the human drama. Can we just have a lot of the guys that’s not the point of a T.V. show right. I agree and I agree one hundred percent and honestly it would get really really boring if all you’re doing is running around killing zombies like Woods. What’s the point. You know where’s the drama where is you know what it wears that makes you drive forward as opposed to you know is really being able to tell the story about how society is breaking down. And so when you look at Savage Empire where you have this you know small encapsulated space which is you know this partially destroyed Los Angeles with these apex predators running around. How does this change you know how does it change the narrative the human drama and having this happen all more or less in real time or not look you know two weeks or more months after you know the quote unquote event I want to tell the story as the stuff is actually happening and to see that crumble does those elements of society you know crumble in realtime as you flip from page to page. We believe that it’s going to be something that people are going to get into it sounds like in a major disaster like Usually it’s like a hundred small things happening at the perfectly wrong time Kalak like approach a thing like a snowball effect of a collapse of society. When you think about almost like a stack of dominoes where the first thing here is you know the earthquake so it’s a very big finger but then you just watch as it spreads everywhere and affects all of these people and all the situations and all the different ways and honestly writing the script it was really you know difficult to sort of rain in some of the crazier ideas because I like all there is there is absolute no way to throw this in there and then I go do some research and all this kind of stuff that actually happened before where there’s been you know crazy earthquake someone. Here’s a good example. I have a part in the book where this island shows up in the Pacific basically between the sort of the disputed border between Mexico and the United States and it just basically rises up out of nowhere after this earthquake and I’m like oh that be really great you know I have some room to maneuver who want to have more of a jungle environment but that would never happen and then lo and behold I did some research and that actually did happen when there was an earthquake just a little over a year and a half ago where a small island ended up appearing in the ocean out of nowhere created by these tectonic plates shifting so that’s just a small example of where you know some of these crazier ideas. They really have you know proper you know science based you know real criteria as opposed to Wallace just throw some stuff I stuff out there but look at it like a comic book Michael Crighton then you’re actually going for it. Oh yeah. I drill down and a lot of that comes down to you know my in my work as a designer and a producer over the years where you know you need to be able to work with people from different disciplines and be able to explain what it is that you want when it comes to you. Or features you know and it’s a lot easier for me to show you an animated GIF or gift depending on you know what side of the guy who created the standard called the JEFF Yeah but it’s graphic. I hear Jeff and I just think peanut butter. It’s not it’s not drastic. All right giraffe OK it’s graphic so it’s a gaffe. The guy who wrote it said Jeff doesn’t you never you know what you’ve really got into a lot of conversation here or point right there. It’s great I don’t want to go in all black white Israel Palestine on the issue but I’m going to look at the other way and wouldn’t leave it that. Agree to disagree. So all right I want to point to somebody once said that humanity is is two hot meals and one warm shower away from regressing as a person when you when you cordon off these this populous from their creature comforts. Is that going to be another another fighting point if I can you know they’re walking away from their I guess idol role mankind have to revert to his lizard brain origins in order to fight the greater lizard before him. Well you know your enemy right here in the you’ve got the radio there representative of an organization a governmental body if you will that is coming in to fix this but at the same time you’ve got just a large swath of humans that are if you think about it probably freaking out. Yeah you think about it like this you know when you know terrible tragedies happen it’s an opportunity for people to display their worst and to display their best and having the opportunity to tell those kinds of stories on either end of the spectrum. And again it is not a block away. There’s always going to be shades of gray. That’s actually a large part of the reason why I came to my female protagonist reintegrate because. Why frankly I didn’t want to be you know black ops work or or completely white office above the board I want or writing that is no shades of gray. But getting back to what you’re talking about certain flash points and how you know people sort of reverting like you said to have been running away from from everything going straight to hell. I really think that that can happen and we have seen it happen you know we see it in more war zones we see it in our cities and not just here in North America but all around the world but we also see you know great opportunities for grace and those are the kind of stories that I want to tell that run the gamut without giving a lot away. There’s opportunity for redemption. And there’s some really nice stuff and I think that you know if you’re going to hold up a mirror and and reflect society as it really is and that’s a large part of the why I have written Savage Empire the way that I have that you have to tell those kinds of stories both ways. There them there. There are the lizards but we’re the real monsters. If this project becomes successful what do you imagine the ones operating through maybe you can tell us on the story. So yeah I look at Savage Empire like I said as as a backdrop where there are multiple stories that can be told on these protagonists you know they have set you know beginning middle and an end for this to planned out and I’m not looking to stretch out their story by any means just for the sake of if there are other opportunities that present themselves within Savage Empire where I can use these protectionist again then I totally will. But at the same time you know it doesn’t always have to be about you know the military types or you know the black ops or anything like that like maybe you tell the story of somebody who’s now you know I’m holed up at the top of this apartment building and I’ve blocked off all the stairs and I’m growing my food up here and I’m waiting for something. Come in and rescue me but at the same time anybody who comes in to try and get to what I got. I’m now late potshot ing them from the top of the stairs and I’m running out of ammunition. OK I can’t sleep like two kind of stories right where a more civilian based a little more grounded. But for the first one I really felt that it was important coming with a bank. You know you’ve got such a wide C.V. imagine being stuck to one series for so long might feel restricted to it all my and my wife Jo She says you know I got the attention span of a goldfish like that. That’s OK You know I love her and I really do and you know I don’t want to come but you know it’s there. There are a lot of things out there that I find interesting. You know I have a wide variety of interests and and you know I’ve actually done a lot of stuff you know coming up a lot of different you know things like I said in the email that I sent you guys that really makes me happy. You know you know I’ve done house for four years while I was working you know as a project manager. So I’m literally like you know spending Thursday Friday Saturday night said you know this by you know biting people and then Monday morning going in trying to work on this keyboard of my knuckles all pushed in you know tons of software Q.A. is that we don’t know this is a little place called This is in Syria actually in Surrey B.C. and got quite a few stories in there where you know I can put it together about a graphic novel and a lot of the stories in there people would shake their head and say they never happened and I’m like you have no clue. But you know there are opportunities to really share as as as many different stories as there are for people that are out there and the nature of graphic novels being what they are the barrier to entry is a lot lower than other forms of trans media and it’s cool if you want to be able to tell Like I said a specific for leads in the case. Two Savage Empire to be able to you know tell a specific one shot and here’s a story and it’s a catch twenty two and I’m happy with that that’s great. And if the opportunity comes to tell something that’s more of a series and serialized story then that’s great too. But I’m never going to try and force one over the other. I just want to be able to tell the stories that I want to tell. Well yeah and correct me if I’m wrong. As a writer isn’t the goal to develop a world that’s so rich and full that you can revisit it from multiple angles if you didn’t act. Yeah you hit the nail on at multiple angles with strong world building and comes back from my from my mind. I’m actually making games to where I found it more successful titles that I worked on the world building has been quite strong we’re actually telling the narrative but it’s in the environment as opposed to necessarily hitting somebody over the head with you know a shitload attacks so that being said do you have some characters planned out in this one shot that have the potential to grow out word they specifically put in a place to do that. No the characters have their full stories. Like I don’t I don’t I’m sorry I don’t mean the main characters I mean are there some secondary characters that may have something going on that you like. Yeah if it happens it happens. Yeah I know there are a lot of threads going back and forth between the primary in the secondary and tertiary characters and even some of the guys you know may see somebody only on one page but they have their own histories. I guess I have had this to my head for the better part of five years and you know planning out these characters planning out their personal histories and looking for opportunities to you know build these these threads in the strands between them. I know I’m not saying that you know by any means and I’m doing the Vince Gilligan you know thing where oh my God this was in season two and now it’s in season five it will make sense right. But that is so masterful isn’t it it’s a it’s amazing like when it happens and you just sit there and you look at your screen and I can’t believe that so you know that’s something that I you know obviously I’m going to aspire to you know is inspiration for me. But there are definitely opportunities for other characters in this one shot to be able to pull things out you know down the road and we can actually explore more their backgrounds you know we look at like I said the original Walking Dead you know you got Shane you got Rick and you look at the T.V. show and there are other characters there that may have only been touched on the comic book but now have been fleshed out a lot more in television so deftly I would never say never. Or you are just opening a three announcements to them. Yeah so I would say and I’m just glad that a lot garden has come back as come back to us for years and now it’s like it’s been three threes. Yeah well I’m not going to complain. I’ve got to say that my my my top troll from E three easily the Final Fantasy seven remake really well you go back to the square presentation that games come last year where they were announcing Final Fantasy seven and everybody’s all hyped up for it and then it turned out to be like the P.C. port like internet just exploded areas like you know like that last year I felt like there was like two or three years ago as well I thought that was literally just last year when he made that announcement he was like opening up the fridge and you’re like oh my pizza still in here and the fun of your room in the box and nothing in the box in the fridge. And and then they remake and I read it’s like you trolling bastards. It was wonderful. But my my top my my easily my my top two two or three games actually. One the new Metal Gear You know the gym is last stand it looks amazing I was watching the forty minute demo on I.G.N. earlier today with my a my youngest son and we were just going nuts over it. Huge on the new kit man so the last one Hitman Absolution I wasn’t that impressed with the land like a few good levels in the vein of blood money but this one looks like they’re getting back to tape and Halo five especially the new war zone multiplayer that they have that they introduced. Those are easily are my top three in terms of like the the AAA space. So for these three I would never ever consider myself a writer but I am definitely consumer of stories. Yeah you said that you are a fan of his team. As a western storyteller reading stories that are wrapped and and completely affected by Eastern culture do you ever find a disconnect right. Yeah I mean if you are I guess not steep or immersed in the culture there are always going to be opportunities are there are there always be situations where something will stand out as art and you know as as much you know anime you consume or manga you read. That’s still such a small sliver of white Japanese creative culture has to offer. I certainly wouldn’t venture to say that you know it’s going to prepare you for you know any kind of disconnect going to come across. That said when I play the middle tier series and I go through those you know on internal you know internal cut scenes you know forty five minutes at a time. It’s almost like I’m back in college and I’m studying with the expectation that I’m going to have to come back to this material later in order to fully understand it. It’s not going to be driving it was like punishing professor. When it comes to stories are you not allowed to just kind of joy. Oh no no you can’t you can just come in on the surface and be like doing stuff that I’m putting people to sleep in those nukes and then and then a machine then when the you if you do that you’re going to come away frustrated when I know casual Cosima fans they’re all in the NG you look at yourself for I think was probably the high or low mark depending on your point of view in that regard. But I was OK with that. Like once I got to the point in the series where I knew that I was in it for the long haul and that I would have to come back to it and really treat it like a full experience as opposed to just stealth game experience. That’s when I really started preceding what it was that he was trying to do with those interminable cut scenes. It’s it’s more then the exploration of specific seems at that surface level and I can really appreciate what it is that he’s done up until this point with him and finish things off with a phantom animal there’s a Metal Gear Solid five. I sad because you know K’naan he has stated that they want to continue with the Metal Gear Solid series of the art tour. His voice is what makes metal gear to me. And once that’s gone I won’t be able to find his voice in those layers. That big now being used to over the course of the last twenty something years with Metal Gear and that that’s all that essence is going to be gone no matter who it is they end up putting in charge and I’m not saying that the games that come subsequently will be good but it won’t be him and it appeared to me right when three was out I would probably listen to that theme song like I want today. That’ll tell you one thing just now it’s amazing. In the Sony press. They had a fantastic game that jumped out of me and it just never it didn’t catch any traction with any of the news fees or anything. Fire Watch. Oh yeah campus center. Yes. Yeah that was awesome. That looks absolutely amazing and it’s weird to say but you know I haven’t had a system buyer yet for the P S four. I’ve been waiting for Uncharted because I absolutely adore the Uncharted franchise but if that shows up prior to it it might be something that I just go get on a lark. Well here’s a thing that you know that shot about a man who is one of the guys in the tell tale walking dead then Season one and the right is behind the design of bond that he’s now he’s the guy who over a Campbell sent us a lounge and is where I go follow that path all the guy will does man like as right as designs are awesome and fire watch looks like such an amazing experience where you know it’s not you know quote unquote walking simulator even though I think as a pejorative that’s pretty weak. But if you know the F.A.A. Gratian yet you know it just looks so incredibly cool and you have this this relationship with the lady on the other and the other end of the radio sending all over the wilderness. Yeah and I got really interested to see how that relationship changes based on your actions and your your interactions and your conversations like this to me is where gaming really need to start expanding and bringing in new people and new customers and new markets like this is where it’s going to go you have action but it’s not all about necessarily pointing down the rifle the gun like there’s now there’s exploration there’s adventure there’s something cool here you know I can I can play something like this and play with my kids and wife is not necessarily to games. Right and you know get as much out of it as I do when I had kids I was slowed. There was a fair amount of cussing in it which was fantastic of course they’re adults. No that’s a buck right. Yeah absolutely. The last time I think I was excited about a game with that was so narrative driven it was portal to be honest. Yeah to have that constant feed of creative input from a writer and and and a voice actor just constantly in your ear. Talk about world building. Yeah I mean you have that right. Yeah when you have that function in the game they just continually fleshes things out. It makes even rudimentary graphics feel so much more real because there’s so much human descriptive word and there are there are no humans in that. Yeah yeah I know you become invested Chelsea and those are the games you remember. Yeah absolutely yeah. So yeah fire watch. Yeah big big thumbs up for me for that one such P S four and P.C. rep Yeah you mentioned that tell her earlier I think amazing how adventure games sort of thing again. Adventure games where they like disappeared for a while or I mean you know you have broken age you know with their huge Kickstarter successful and whatnot and all adventure games are back but they never really went away like you had like the one that I guys you know they were you know they’ve always been around and Europe you know broken sword they’ve just been at a much you know the sort of been under the surface they don’t really capture the limelight you know during the call of duty years but they’ve always been there it’s just great that they’re not coming back to the limelight and because anybody mentored and has that been able to push and explore through a narrative you know it really makes the game a lot more welcoming to a new kind of audience you know you’ve got people playing I don’t nonce life is strange you know and saying I never thought that I would enjoy being a fourteen year old girl this much and I think I don’t feel like right now but but it but it works. It’s not the same all perspective like I’m sorry you can only you know the barriers to entry in the first person shooter. Just as an example are now so high that you need to spend millions upon millions and plan to have like a ten year product plan for game like destiny to be able to come into this market as a new IP and you know people are you know there that that group will always be there but people one new experiences they want new perspectives and this is really an opportunity for more of those perspectives to get pushed to the forefront and now you know and with Twitter and also its new ways to promote you know these these new titles. Everybody now has a chance to you know get in front of eyeballs. This place is a funny example because like what you described it’s almost as if the freshness of your story is directly tied to the size of your budget. So if you got like this minor like upstart little story project you get wild and crazy and whatever you want but if you have a seven hundred million dollars game you know you’re going to have a story whatsoever he was kind of an executed sequence and how people just enjoy. Yeah but the higher your budget the higher your risk and how did you get risk to double down on things that you know work which are amazing gameplay mechanics you know that the grind the loot all you think which destiny is absolutely like the pinnacle of as far as I’m concerned and the storylines that you know story that’s created if you can’t control creative you know people don’t like that and other people in charge anyways and they don’t like you know if they can something they can control that some they can mitigate that’s something we can plan for. We will make adjustments accordingly so yeah the more money you’re spending unless you know you’re the outliers like Rockstar the less money you’re going to going to be spending a lot of time going to be spending on creating a crazy storyline to go with your amazing gameplay mechanics was what the visit would kick starter forwards like writers like you to be able to do the passion thing. Yeah honestly that’s that is what it comes down to. Like there are segments of the market that have been like under served for three years. For decades it’s that simple. So you look like traditional gatekeepers and I’m not just talking about game publishers but just like T.V. the people with money period. You know they’ve always told creators that OK Sir John has certain projects you know we can spend money on this they’re not financially viable anymore like you know diverse comics adventure games turn based R.P.G. like the Obsidian guys like you. You name it you know they don’t want to spend money on it because there’s a risk or because they won’t be able to make as much money on this project as if they you know invest it in something else but you know it might not be a viable option for them but the P. and L. They make perfect sense for for people who actually know their audience and can speak to that audience right. Sitting around and you are starved for attention and you know starving for food and suddenly finding offers you a place you going to break down the goddamn door. So unlikely and you know when I look at it you know what I was going to get a Savage Empire like having that device that diverse focus on the protagonist side you know multiple perspectives conflicting agendas like these are the things that make great storytelling you know and holding up as a mirror to reflect our world as it actually is. That kind of stuff is actually done wonders for those huge projects like you know say Fast and Furious and where you have like a fully diverse cast you know people who look like people I see everywhere and kind of in the States and I really think that Savage Empire can can speak to that. Diverse you know action graphic novel crowd who also want to do a great stories like honestly you know diversity aside if the stories suck then who gives a shit. Coalition but this is the worst story ever the new carriage are not doing yourself any of you doing this story disservice. But if you can create a good story and then have people in there who run the gamut of everybody you know then there’s enough room in the town for everybody. It’s like. You know why says Me street these are the people in your neighborhood. Yeah that’s that’s that’s the kind of thing that I want to they don’t want to do with the stories or do you have any thoughts about the I was a bit talk to some people the darker side of Kickstarter when you get too much money. Notably would be double fine and Tim Shaffer’s last go like he broke that into two games he’d only got he’d only intended for one. People thought it was drawn out and it was stretched. It took a long time for the second part to get there and people had it. They weren’t as excited as if it had been a one shot like Tim Schafer just a needle in the vein like they felt it so did you watch the documentary that he released. I haven’t do that because he explains the process of splitting it up I was a backer of brokenness and just because I’m a huge TIM SCHAFER fan boy you know yeah but I cannot write Fandango. You know growing up you know it’s mentioned the whole nine yards. I I guess I probably cut him more slack because I have a development background and I know how things can go haywire and how the money that he received will never necessarily be enough to reach the vision that you’re trying to reach. Star is that you’re not just selling you know a product so much as you’re selling an opportunity to make something happen and you know that can be a double edged sword. People will grasp onto that and say Yeah we’ll get behind it and will throw all sorts of cash at you and then you have these creatures. Just look at stars of millions and millions of dollars but the dark side of that is that now the expectations of what’s in their head as a creative as a creator you imagine that like to die. Then process right now and the work that that came and Double Fine had to do in order to make Broken Age happen as part one and Part two. You know after you watch the documentary and I said speaking as a producer I look at the decisions that they made and I really think that for the good of the product over all of that I would have done the same thing about was in their shoes. But as coming from a strictly consumer point of view because as consumers who gives a shit what you guys are doing behind the scenes all I care about is once you know on Steam or in my hands you don’t care about that and that’s a perfectly valid point of view to have and I fully understand it or do you think there’s a disconnect between game developers and the public at large which when the people consume the product. Yes You know like it seems in my perspective it seems to be getting like so hyperbolically strange right. Like people who like a band. Well like you know care about their lives and like want the best for them. We have people like a game developer they want them to basically break your back for the sake of them being happy for an hour for my entertainment. It’s yeah it speaks to the passion when it comes to you know games in your favorite games that you see that you know and love and wanting to experience more of those amazing games. And from an outsider’s point of view and I was a same way before I started at Electronic Arts back in the mid ninety’s you know I was just before I started working a year I would have now would work there for free. But like what test video games for a living I pay you for the privilege to her and and it’s magic it really is like when a good game comes together and you’re playing it and you’re enjoying it you know Murs in the world like it’s an amazing feeling. And as you know anybody is playing games. And then they know exactly what it is I’m talking about right now. So of course to look at and go Well why would he want to you know drive yourself to the wall in order to make this amazing experience again and again and again and what they don’t see is the crazy amount of crunching over time that are involved in creating you know these great games where you’re spending a large part of time you know looking for the fun and that’s why you know you see AAA publishers that you know like I said try to mitigate risk. Will they get a good I P and they just crank up you know sequel after sequel after sequel because it speaks to there’s a proven audience there right. Like black ops. Well how do you end the call the games are good games like there are quality shooters you know because you know they’re you know they just keep turning them out and take the helm in their last stand I would have you know I would I would certainly argue that you know a poster you know sort of the whole Titan Fall and for me were blowing where there’s a really stepped up and I’m really looking forward to the black ops. But like for the most part Call of Duty is like a quality shooter series or just a lot of them. Assassin’s Creed Unity aside it’s been like a really quality you know out of the box you know park or assassination fun experience with examples you care if you think that your early release is hurt the quality of writing for a franchise. Actually my well there is a song where they say you know give the people what they want. Yeah. That’s that’s that’s all fine and dandy but if you’re looking strictly from a quality standpoint I look at what Rockstar does with a Grand Theft Auto series. OK Now whatever you may think of the characterization that the Hauser brothers provide you know in any grand theft auto They take their time and they allow the stories to breed so when they finally do release a game after you know. Every three four five years there’s now an anticipation there. There’s no willingness to immerse yourself in this crazy story and know that you can come across these not memorable characters that you’re going to be talking about you know years down the road I mean I still crack like you know oh gee look you know some of the jokes from G.T.A. fan interest nobody’s NY game came out like ages ago. Yeah and you know it’s it’s it says something when you allow your games a chance to brief you know and it’s like farming so you know we’ve got a family farm on the prairies that I go to every every summer and go there and then farm and chill and basically get away from the urban life started. First time I’ve ever heard someone describe a metaphor between video game development and like the good wholesome humble former American heartland. I told you man esoteric go you have to let the field life out you can just keep on them every single year otherwise you can rob them of the nutrients and I would probably be more excited about you know a new entry and you know it’s a treat or Call of Duty or whatever it is. If I knew that I was going to get it every second year and then that’s you know but that’s just me as a consumer from a production standpoint from a developer standpoint as somebody who’s been behind the curtain sees out the sausage is made. I understand what the decisions are made. Yeah you know it’s funny the attitude that the Witcher three. That is an amazing game and they’re only what a year and a half out of the last one where I may be and I’m sure at least two seemed and I think that was a long time ago and really what you do is a couple years ago I was saying I never touched it like all my Steam games that are playing it’s about collecting Left Behind is about collecting. But it was another question. Where do you get time to enjoy new things when you’re busy making them. I’ll find that I’ll have to sort of carve out some time to actually sit and then play something. Now just because I’ve been writing so much and when with the Kickstarter for the for the Savage Empire Kickstarter you know I really haven’t had much time to sit down and get into a game like I see which are three and I’m like no that’s September. Yeah that’s a time or a pick up that Metal Gear and then I’ll just you know lock myself away for a month but it isn’t a time vampires you know every now and then like I have my my peers to ration the Playstation two on my desk with you know where I do my writing as another take a quick break and just boot up some urban rain or you know taken five and you know or a street fighter you know and collection and just you know play for a little bit and clear my head and you know sometimes just to deal with writer’s block and get ten minutes worth of gaming in and then get right back to it. It’s it’s one of those decisions that you have to be disciplined about like yeah I could sit around and I could get right back into destiny I got some doubling up I got to do a place in G.T.A. or or you know finish Broken Age part two NEVER it is but if I do that then that means that I’m not doing what I need to do for me. So it’s it’s just a matter of being disciplined and it’s funny I think Mike my twenty year old self could hear me now he be like Who the hell are you. Well I mean let’s be honest you shouldn’t worry too hard about leveling up a destiny for the next expansion a nerf everything that you work really hard for and you can just buy it again. Well I’m not going to like working on the project. It’s weird how do I want to you know when you have a question what you really want to point where you want a phrase of this question for you’re not an asshole but ultimately that’s all you’re doing. Oh yeah a sports interviewer. QUESTION But I’m going to couch it in like eighteen minutes screed first and then say so what are you thoughts on that. Yeah yeah. So right outside of the medical Metairie on making points through questions allow me to lead you to the idea of being a hardcore gamer right. So we’ve just we’ve talked about how even when you have the complete love for it. But if you’re trying to like go forward to something in your life that it’s got to be extremely like walled off right or not a lot of like what rationed as time you can offer to it. You know don’t you know. Yeah but like do games naturally lead people away from what adulthood are pretty much from adulthood. I don’t know that’s what jurors are going to be able and I guess the way the same eyes as I do I think the best accomplishment of a game is if it can inspire you. You know and I think it would be and I think it serves really well to like focus on what Like leads people to make more ideas as opposed to just want more games to play you know. But I know that’s that’s my soapbox. I think at its best you know and you know you know a couple guys I’m in a conversation here. But at its best for any kind of creative work you want to come away inspired by it whether it’s inspired for the positive or negative but at the very least you want to come away with something if you’re just consuming and then for the sake of consumption and then five minutes later you’re done. It’s like popcorn and there’s nothing wrong with popcorn for the brain but you can’t you can’t grow with that. So I look at games like any other any in any other medium you know whether I go to see a movie or Washington Luzhin or I’m reading a book. I want to come away from it having felt like I’ve got something out of it whether it’s good or bad but haven’t done much. OK that’s two hours done than those two hours wasted. You know unless I was going into it with that mindset in the beginning. So you know I don’t think that you’re wrong by saying that you know games should be able to inspire you. I don’t think that they lead you away from adulthood especially as so many games explore you know different themes and then away from your your your typical like you said you’d bang you know whatever but you know it’s there are opportunities to tell more adult oriented stories. And for those stories to be able to find an audience that is nuclear enough for the creators to go and make something new. In fact this is one of the images came out called Sunset I believe on a P.C. where you played his housekeeper who is looking after the apartment of this political figure during a political coup and telling the story between the stuff that she does when she’s there cleaning and then he comes back and she’s gone leaving notes in the back and forth and how that relationship you know sort of changes depending on the things you do and you see that sort of reflected through the window as you’re looking out into the greater social butterfly effect of life. Exactly other collectors and you can’t you couldn’t do that with a book you can do that with a movie you could only do that in the medium of games and that’s still an adult oriented focused experience and these be kind of things that are now becoming more mainstream and I think that’s awesome. And and that to me is part of adulthood adulthood is being able to take you know all sorts of different kinds of you know media and being able to learn from it. You know there’s good or bad. Yeah yeah I definitely didn’t mean to. They had adult it up I think that’s just a go to derisive statement that I use for things you know it’s time to grow buddy. It’s just oh yeah I heard it is in time coming out you know. Yet echoing my dad I think three through the ages. Reminds me that I was of the very first page of Understanding Comics by Scott MacLeod where his call is talking to his dad on the phone and he’s telling him and his data so what are you working on these days and as well as going to make another comic book as it really is a kid except this one is explaining the medium of comics as sort of an academic piece but published as a comic and his dad says are two little young to be doing that. Publishing papers what are you doing. But it’s also there’s an interesting what I would categorize what you’re describing is an interactive narrative and that is something that can only happen in games. Yeah but there’s also just a game whether it be Pac-Man or Gallagher or or Battlefield multiplayer it is a true man that’s really a criticism of modern capitalism. It’s a repetitive you know and you never get to enjoy the outcome of your labor as it disappears right in front of you describe the plight of the working class is efficiency just brings out more and more stress upon their shoulders until the entire system collapses that is that is always on the verge. I grabbed hold on to the tune of Russian folk terms. Well yeah yeah. And even if you hit pause a told me what is it like Excel file so it looks like you’re actually working at your job and instead you do games. It’s actually a subversive product to inform the underclass about how to bring down this man. I missed that on my original Game Boy with the spinach color screen I didnt get an Excel file when I went to other costly Ian Bogost so I was the entire modem. But I express a gaming you know that’s what I love and I’m sort of the those new means to be able reach out there that you wouldn’t find conventional investment for because honestly going to be an independent developer like that not to be any rewards is not going to be any love. There’s only going to be constant personal suffering and derision from the public unless someone like writes up something on rock paper Saka right there to backers. Yeah sure wherever I mean it’s a big fight you know it’s a fight for P.R. and you know I know this you know from both having you know AAA publishers behind me and now doing stuff on my own you know you can really see the difference. And but there’s still a chance you know whether it’s you know getting written up on R.P.S. or I could talk to you or a smaller blog you know there’s still a chance for games to find an audience and you just have to work at it. Problem is is that a lot of really good developers aren’t as plugged in or as dialed in when it comes to the P.R. aspect of promoting their work or they see it as you know somehow diminishing their work while I shouldn’t have to go and spoil my hands doing this and that it will stand as it is and they will flock to me and I’m like did that is not how it works. Like I love. OK I’m biased as hell but I love Savage Empire I think it’s the greatest thing ever and I want everybody to read it but I have to go and kick in doors and send emails to people and call call and tweet in and whatnot in order to get it out there so that people support the Kickstarter. Otherwise no one will know. So all right and it worked and here I am but it’s but it’s part of the process and you can win it’s just one person you know if you’re just making a game you Raisman or you’re writing a comic in your basement den and you’re responsible for everything else goes along with that. It’s a it’s a lot of work and it’s a lot of the knights and not everybody. It is able to do it or wants to do it and it’s a shame because there are a lot of great creative works that are out there that will never see the light of day or won’t get any oxygen because you know people don’t have the wherewithal to be able to make that stuff surface right. So you know you can find a great literature and it has nothing to do with a quality the product at all right it’s just a matter of being able to bring to the noise and and be able to to make yourself not so looking at your your Kickstarter video. You’re the writer. Yes And do you have like the artistic pictures I saw on the video it looks like there was a lot of different artists involved is there an artist that you’ve settled on. Oh yeah absolutely not to be. I don’t get it twisted at all so some working with this amazing artist again named Jim Jimenez and he’s done all the pencils and inks for the comic. OK so what would be the first version the cover. I’m also working with a good buddy of mine from from Disney Magic and he’s one of the top concert artists in the world. Done a lot of work for Dark Horse Star Wars CONAN And a lot of game projects as well. You know like that Def Jam series as a sex etc You know I have I have a love for the S.S.A. experience because of the presentation. I mean the snowboarding was always fantastic. But I met loved their high energy presentation it was something that I could put on in a crowded room people and people would flock to it it was a video game that was rather to be on show. Yes So you know the character’s eyes were for the S.S.O. own eyes. Oh wow OK So so these are the two guys that I’ve been working that I’ve worked with for the actual comic itself. I have you know other artists who you know have done like interpretations of the characters. If you look at a Kickstarter award two years we’re actually. When my character commissions as well as that these artists are going to be providing sort of their own take on the characters as well as you know Jim and they’re all doing their thing and I don’t know if you’ve heard of this game called the darkest dungeon. It’s so is a really successful Kickstarter. Another bank studio did it last year it’s a game and a lot of the principals are guys that I’ve worked with previously including the creative director a guy named Chris Perasso he’s working on parts of the Caribbean when downstairs when I was working on Turok up stairs. But but we’re good friends good colleagues and he’s actually added back a reward for Savage Empire so basically anybody who backs any level he’s going to be creating a character and dinosaur sketches done in the dark is dungeon art art style and wow really crazy and all that it’s all the distinctive lot of people love it so I really encourage people to check out the darkest darkest dungeon dot com And just to check out the game because it’s it’s pretty dope and it’s to see what kind of stuff they’re doing on the art side and then support Savage Empire because you’ll be able to get access to some really cool art done in that same art style. We’re also an hour but I did want to ask so what was your role at the psychiatric hospital. So yeah OK we’re just going to be here. That’s right. I just say yeah it’s good let me just get my neck back into place so I was health care worker OK so it’s almost like Slash bounce or babysitter but with the more health oriented band totally clobbered Heinlein like you’re like a spirit animal or something. I wish Robert Heinlein had a call like a human should be able to connoisseurship give orders take orders change a diaper lead an army dive alley and comfortable going and whatnot. Specialization is for insects. You know I think it’s good to have a wide variety of interests and I’ll just leave it at that. I don’t know the need to seek your guy in The Most Interesting Man in the world but I am trying to make sure that I experience as much as I can during the time I have here. So it’s just one of those situations where I’ve done a lot of stuff in being a health care worker at Western Canada’s largest psychiatric institution for five and a half years was part of that was was was part of my experience and honestly I joke about it a lot how you know that I worked there actually prepared me for games development like Guide and like for years and always professionally for four years and thank God for this opportunity to have an expressive platform of communication because you know we go when it comes to talking sometimes it’s not really a lot. I will have to say it’s easier to go with procedural logic than the words. Sometimes I hear that one hundred percent and honestly it’s just one of situations where it’s good to have that outlet. I guess if you if you if you want to know more about the whole health care worker thing I mean it was really it was a great you know union job making a lot of money or you know for the hour an end because I was on call I work all over the hospital. So one day I’d be working you know strictly geriatrics another day you know I’d be taking patients out on day trips another day working on say you know a locked ward all males eight hundred sixty four because they’re too dangerous to go outside and do really very you know it’s like I said you know bringing it back to to the beginning of the interview. You know for somebody who has intentions family goldfish it was great but the No but it was also really good in terms of you know pay my way through college. But I love you know the idea of going into games so much that I actually took a sixty percent pay cut to leave that job in order to go work. You do what you gotta do right. Yeah and I wasn’t pleased but that sounds about right for you to go through the course of the game development. I’m sorry I know video games that will affect people’s families work on the confidence just like visual effects in movies you disappear from your loved ones are going to chance for you or just you know one of the things it’s kind of I guess the press do in business you know that you know you kind of go into it knowing that you’re going to cry and you know you let your loved ones know as well as you can as you know somebody who’s been a producer and a project manager on previous previous projects you know I’ve had an opportunity to help set those O.T. hours and try and make it as an animal for people with families you know when we first started out you know back in the day we’re all young and you know can have like us so you know significant others and all that you know didn’t matter quite as much but you know paroled or now and they’ve got families that want to spend time with their families and then that’s a right not working to work or living to work he should be you know working to live and you know I really learned a lot of really good lessons especially when I was a relic working on Company of Heroes and the Dawn of War series where the new O.T. was coming we would have you know set ot days so you know that everybody was there. You needed to ask the question the guy that or girl that you needed to talk to would be there as well as opposed to all she’s gone home for the day and you’re like oh why am I here. Right Thing that breeds resentment personal Rao You know and you know being a just planning ahead and you know those using those lessons and applying them to teeny spaces as I’ve gone throughout my career is actually help quite a lot. Remembering that people are actually people and not just you know numbers or resources on the spreadsheet makes a big difference and especially when it’s time to really crunch because then people know that you have their back or do you need a strong team. Absolutely. I’m in in motion pictures there’s people like I a lamb or or like you know even smaller houses like Blur animation and stuff and they work on video games but after a particularly little late big period of crunch right when a movie’s about to debut oftentimes those companies will buy like a week vacation in Hawaii for the people that were primarily involve the crotch and to their significant other slash family depending on what level. Is there an equivalent in the game space for something like that or I’ve heard of place like Val For example do not lie their company out to Hawaii and stuff like every Christmas. Well other than they are another exception right. Rockstar swimming and yeah they’re all really worried about release schedules or cycles or when they when the Half-Life three releases man down for three years and five will be worth the wait. You said well but I would say that it’s very much the outlier you know in the game space it’s pretty rare that that happens occasionally people build up enough tenure at a place to take it like a year long sabbatical. But it’s not quite the same. Yeah it’s just one of those situations where I think the games industry has a while as a ways to go to match some things or the creative industries but you know you look and there’s a lot of you know young kids who are looking to break in and willing to do whatever it takes that push from you know from the bottom. You know it does create that bit of a crutch for the people who are already in the middle. So you know it’s yeah there you go. Capital budget Yeah well actually that is an interesting comparison to film because very frequently you’ll see the director will make you know contractual obligations to get his art thing produced in exchange for a major like you know money made. The motion picture. Right. You meal. He’ll do the big blockbuster so you can do is our project exactly. Yeah I don’t ever see that happening from a creative lead in a video game. Selective memory it is interesting. Have you seen that kind of thing before you think that the heart of the game industry I think it’s pretty rare for that kind of stuff to happen. If you go back to like you know the mid eighty’s you know when the first group of Atari programmers first broke away after they weren’t getting credited you know with their names on the cartridges and formed Activision there’s always been that that natural tension when it comes to the people who you know are the producers and the creators and management and you know I don’t think that will ever go away. I think there’s more opportunity for people in film for example to sort of get that that hand as it were going to use. Did Seinfeld references but it’s because you know films take for the most part take less time to make more films over your career as opposed to games for them especially for working in AAA and if you’re going to be offering any kind of money to an artwork to make a shitload of cash you want to do in the AAA space because that has the highest rate of return. And so you know the publishers are not apt to want to do that. So like you said you you look at even like a guy like you know could you know who is an amazingly well respected you know throughout the industry and throughout the consumer base as well. And yet he’s now going to this really ugly situation with Konami. Yeah I asked him. Yeah. Can Happen anybody look at Patrick desolate with Ubisoft an Assassin’s Creed thing you know and then you know that that whole messy situation you know when they’ve been bought out six hundred sixty six and can slip in and out all the stuff is going on between between them like you know these are guys who are on tours who have created amazing franchises and. Our dealing with the same kind of issues that you know you don’t see happening going to the same extent in say the film industry and that’s actually you know here’s another example of the Infinity Ward kind of quality you know great freakin Call of Duty Modern Warfare and it blew up in their faces in terms of the relationship between themselves and their publisher. So you know and it wasn’t like anybody was going to throw a whole lot of money at them to make a new game you tied for almost went under without the help of Microsoft any ace or a you know they’re the project take longer less opportunity to make as many projects or over the course of your career and that national squeeze from the publishing side of things. I really don’t think that you’re going to see that kind of thing happen again on the smaller double layer Kickstarter level rap’s ability to go to Kickstarter and he’s going to make all the money only the Mega Man creator or even better than him you know if you’re not on one day. Oh yeah three. I was like if you’re going to remake a Dreamcast game and how about you power stone. I’m on board for that. Yeah I I don’t know if you have as many people who’ve been talking with a bit from power still probably right but there’s there’s a there’s a there’s a studio that just like every every lesson we’ve learned from all these these other producers and studios they seem to be just water off their back and it’s insomniac. They don’t cut teams in between development cycles they keep people staffed and they consistently churn out amazing games include like the even the Ratchet and Clank. Now I would love for them to go back and do you know I Jack and Baxter again. But but you get the wretched place you’ve got that Play Station shooter with the a. The ins with the three eyes or whatever. That and then you’ve got the resistance Exactly. And then you’ve got you know other than house with something where are that I was asking if they were the first party of no. No they’re they’re not they are they’re separate independent company so they don’t work for Sony they did something overdrive for Microsoft Yes You know they they have a Facebook game called I can’t remember a real knots or something like that. So they do all sorts of stuff in doing so we are game right now. That was just announced last week and then which escapes me so they’re just kind of doing all sorts of stuff. But yeah you’re right. Consistent quality like I always look forward to the stuff than some that puts out period. And I love that I’ve been watching it through press conferences for ten years almost and the same guys are out there like they’re high level staff just don’t go anywhere. I don’t and that’s that is a rare and and just amazing occurrence that you just don’t see and I don’t know why other studios can’t can’t figure that out that that magic recipe that they have because when you engender that kind of stability you attract amazing artists. Well you know it’s not every studio the Ted Price you know and that’s just how it works. You know that kind of culture and you know has to be encouraged by the people at the top and from everything that I’ve heard that’s exactly how it works there. Yeah you know I’m and I’m glad they’re around. I’m glad they’re making great games and just as somebody who’s been in the industry in the scene too many places implode. It’s really good heavens on the act you know doing what they’re doing you know excited for their movie to the ratchet movie that’s probably anything done here. Thank you very much. Oh nice. Coover taking all the American work for the way they make movies out there to not only about you know our daughter isn’t worth crap. That’s why everybody who was a Joel McHale next thing is like yeah with such great support of the American film industry bringing all amazing jobs to Vancouver to Ronson Oh yeah and Coover. Well if we’re going to get a place in Toronto the editor of the Scott Pilgrim when they go can see the movie set. Movies here. Oh man that’s going to conversations. Yeah yeah. I would feel remiss if we let you go without having you like or cite something awesome for us. OK just voice over why is because I was not I was so great. So you want to do like voice or for for a concussion of the you guys can just stick in where we like. Yeah absolutely just whatever you don’t tell us to eat our burrito what you want to say and I don’t know how about from the dawn of time that the birds are now my piano that’s probably how it is like. But yeah like Hi this is Tim Lewis and your list in the calm Castro. Yeah oh yeah. You’re listening to Comcast. Yes well I can go to speak for a minute. OK so I thought that went through all right. Counting down three two one. You’re listening to COM Castro was amazing. That’s chills. All right we we will have a sup should time pretty well with the last arch of your project. Great yeah we’ve got fourteen days to go. Today’s the day. So I really appreciate it guys. Again you know but I think this might really really well and I hope I brought enough to the table to make it worth your while. Oh absolutely and I was this was a lot of fun and we will be back in touch when it’s about to go out and we wish you. Who cruise a success for their campaign. Sweet thank you so much have a great day. All right until next time. Thank you so much for listening to come Castro if you enjoyed this please subscribe rate and review on iTunes stitcher or wherever else you heard this from hello to all of them. It really means the world to us. Viva to you internet! Viva to you all.
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