On this episode of the Comcastro podcast, we talk with Andy Burns who created the pop culture blog Biff Bam Pop and authored Wrapped In Plastic, the history of the show Twin Peaks by David Lynch. We discuss current events in comic books & the legacy of Twin Peaks, Andy predicts the internet’s rage against Joss Whedon, we all open up deeply on the nature of art and expression, and we laugh at Larry King’s worst blooper. Stick with it to the end: This interview will inspire you.
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OK OK just giving Internet. Good evening. Viva Comcast Viva La Tourette Lucy on this is Maximus gross. Matthew queen. Right now we are introducing and the Byrds Andrew is he runs and writes for the pop culture blog and pop and he is a man of many talents endured a book called wrapped in plastic it is a historical coverage of Twin Peaks. The service by the incomparable David Lynch the good news for those of you out there like me who’ve never watched a single thing by David Lynch is that we talk about many interesting things but you really should listen to twenty eight steps because it’s shockingly interesting Yeah I wrote a book Matthew. Way to prep for that interview. Anyway so Andy let’s assume I don’t know where the jump was but eventually about halfway through and the base leaves to go. Looking at where art comes from a calling to it and just the interaction with ourselves or community. I’m just getting shit done. This is a valuable fuckin interview and I so appreciate the conversation we have so this is and he brought us a welcome and thank you for having me. Yes of course and who are you and why should we care. Matthew’s doing his Larry King thing or Larry King never prepared for an interview ever. In fact you know he thought it made him a better host because C.N.N. is designed for the masses who is Ringo I don’t know who the hell you are you know there’s actually a moment where Larry King is interviewing Roman Polanski’s wife and he’s got the story wrong. He doesn’t think it’s Charlie Manson not wife his wife’s sister because his wife’s dead are. And he’s got the story wrong he thinks Roman Polanski killed his wife not Charlie Manson his wife so he asked the wife’s sister so how did it feel when Roman Polanski killed your sister and she’s like excuse me that lariat. Yeah Larry is a giant of talk shows but goddamn research. Wow OK Well I looked at your website. That’s all you need to know and I have no clue where you got the website then it’s a lie at least that bam POW camp Pop Pop dot com Yeah that got started it’s funny that I could argue with two thousand and eight seven years in really the Web site was a bunch of guys who are capable writers are good writers I don’t like to make my living as a writer. I’m working in radio and on the web with a whole bunch of places and I’m lucky that I know a lot of guys who are writers to go in I get to the summer of two thousand and eight. Why don’t we why don’t we all get together you know there’s all these websites where people go on and they’ve got their ileus and they write about you know pop culture stuff and you know the guys that I would find like we can get out. Why don’t we do it and so we started doing it and you know we everyone you know some guy had alias and you know we were like we’d be like you know cool dot com or something like that and things like that at a certain point in time if someone gets left holding the ball it winds up kind of running with things and not by design but I will end up doing it. So I you know I’m super lucky I mean I’ve been running for seven years but it has you know I’ve got guys who all across North America who are. Writing for the fight and to you know take a load off me you know like I’ve got a gun England Walker who’s pretty much my right hand man he does so much work on the site but it’s really cool because you’ve got you know writers from all across North America all in different paying you know it all it’s all pop culture skewering of course and the big thing about this is you know anyone who comes on the only real can be yourself and write with your own voice and try me you know positive you know I can find a lot of negative stuff on the site just because you know you can go on to other where you read that stuff and there’s enough negativity out there that you know I mean if I’m going to write about something I don’t want to write about something that I hate because I just you know if I hear a crappy movie I’d rather move on to another movie or something then I do sit around writing about how much I hate something it just to me you know because that noise on the web the stuff that we’re doing. I’ve got a few tours are negative. I feel like movies like these. Absolutely absolutely. You know what it’s like you’ve never negative stuff on there. You know OK Julio or something like Man I got to write about how much I dislike this but I really like there’s not enough hours in the day. Watch everything you want to watch or read everything that you want to read you know let alone you know from you know with my wife and my kid and everything so I’m going to take the time to write I want to do it. I want to be enjoy and that a lot of what their part is in it’s been great I mean you know when you’re writing and I sparred I’m concerned we’ve got all the guys that have come through the door in the past seven years. The lineup of writers that we have right now is by far the best in if I can you know keep these guys writing in you know contributing in then I’m a super happy guy and I hope you know. We’re coming to the states you know I mean you know seven years and we’ve got a pretty good you know audience from across North America. So you know it is a total labor of love but one that really kind of paid off dividends for everyone who is working on it and I can’t wait to totally exploit that entire audience republish listeners for this brand new show that we’ve got. So you know I was looking on earlier today and I saw the trailer for the Batman Superman up there and it occurred to me like in your position how do you do a media blackout personally for something large That’s coming up. Because I don’t know if you do this at all but for me I like this New Avengers movie is coming out I mean we’re we’re recording this in you know toward the end of April twenty fifth in the Avengers movie is about to hit. I personally I don’t go on the Marvel sub Reddit anymore I don’t look I skip over articles about the Avengers online like like now when we’re at a point we’re just sport you’re going to accidentally hit a spoiler so like you do you do that the trial and guard yourself at all. Yeah absolutely in terms of you know if we see anything in advance. You know when we you know there’s always a spoiler alert for anything that we put up and then I really hate the embargo was dropped on the Avengers so there’s reviews that have been coming out over the last couple hours and I looked at one and I just skimmed it like he was on in the wire because it was a negative review so I just wanted to get a sense of of where the negativity was coming from. But yeah I mean over the next you know we can have her event your sprint. I’m covering my eyes and now there’s writers on this damn pop who are totally into spoilers and they can cover that stuff but I mean we tend to be pretty spoiler free until everything is out there for the masses. My prediction for the Avengers review is that there will be some people who say that the hoax mash is too much. This can be a lot of people who say that there was not nearly enough talk smashing somehow or another the Hulk is going to be like that of a substantial number of people. He said No I also think you know what for the vendors I have a feeling I think if you’re going to hate I think some of it’s going to be directed at Joss himself because I find out you know he’s being friendly but I’m never really crossed over into that main stream you know world apart from the Avengers right if you look at how if you look at Buffy and Angel and Firefly there were you know nice Orient not very fairly nice oriented shows but they were nice shows that never really transcended kind of you know in terms of let’s say Mass ratings or anything like that. You thought if you don’t like a hit in sort of buying that you know we can hold on to you but I just I feel like mainstream governor apparently got him killed and I could see some you know whatever whatever negativity come from the event or if there is any I mean who knows maybe if you were the one sort of you know pseudo negative review but I kind of wonder if some of that will be directed at Joss or even to the whole genre. You know why. As long as they keep making quality film I really do think a lot on a marvel. I’ve always been you know tried and true. I wear with a badge of honor in their show. Martini in my Marvel really hasn’t bumbled yet and like not big time anyway you know you can talk to people who would make an argument but but weren’t you even as good as it should have been or Iron Man two is not as good as it should have been but I think overall they have a pretty amazing level of consistency. Mel being you know strong character great visual in the sort of the whole summer blockbuster. So I think. And here is where my marble gone because I think that if if anything is going to kill like the comical golden goose it will be those bastards or D.C. That’s just like my own personal opinion. Do you see any things that have not been explored yet that you’re just waiting on marvel that you know why I can’t I don’t when I’m reading I’m not thinking of themes to be honest with you. I’m thinking surely I want to read a great grand story in the end if the themes come out and I’m pretty happy with it I would say the only preoccupation that I have when I’m reading Marvel at this point and really the majority of my my comic reading Marvel is I guess I have this inherent concern that there’s a density in comics generally and you know some of the Marvel stuff specifically that I don’t know how you get new younger readers into it and it’s been a conversation I’ve been having for years. Back in I think it was two thousand and nine I was in New York and I went up interviewing Stevie Sapolsky from Marvel it was one of the first really. A longer piece like bam popped up with a different it wasn’t just the blog piece like a longer article in it was about comic book in kids and how do you bring in the younger generation wearing the storytelling and either darker or denser and at the time I was thinking that it was darker and then I was in India Comic-Con a couple years ago when I was in a Marvel panel and I asked the editorial guys because when you have a time that Jonathan Hickman had taken over and started doing his run on Avengers which for me is really really dead. So I mean the payoff is happening now I mean it’s incredible. By M I You know I’ve got the first trade paperback that I haven’t read yet it’s a good thing. Well I mean Fantastic Four run was exceptional. Like it was really good and I can’t remember what number it was but he wrote this really wonderful story about the thing and how the thing is basically a living everyone it got I’ve never written into a comic book before but I was really freaking close that day when I got home because I thought this is just a really amazing story line but I really do think I mean Hickman’s run like I said the payoff of coming into maybe what he’s been working towards over the last you know three or four years but the real density to where you know you’re not going to give it you know an eight or nine year old in you know when I was really starting to get into comics you my first Ackman comic with X.-Men he was you know one ninety five one ninety six it was what do you say or what could I hear and it was an issue where Professor Gates you’re overheard you know telepathically have them plotting a murder and it was the first issue to be honored and it was you know. You didn’t have to you know I was eight or nine and I could get into it and I think you know I understood it for the most part and I just feel like you know the mainstream comic book world it’s not that anymore and I get that you know they’re sort of courting an older audience which is probably why I’m still reading and you guys are still reading too but they’re going with like I’m looking forward to the game where I can sit down with my daughter who’s five now and read some of those books and we go through the you know the kids’ comic and those are great. But I’d love to be able to introduce or just sort of that mainstream that mean Marvel Universe you know and get her into that whole worldbuilding thing that’s really interesting. That’s a good question and I don’t have anything off the top of my head. Why do we go to horror movies what do I watch her movies what do you know it’s there’s something about a rush I think the rush is there but you know it’s hard for me to say you know why we liked our storytelling right like why why is The Walking Dead such a big guy and such a big hit. You know why are people you know so concerned that there’s not going to be a Season three is Twin Peaks which is arguably one of the darkest most disturbing shows to magically that are to scale you’re talking twenty twentieth’s neophyte here so unlike a True Detective scale it’s like going full True Detective here or is this like eighty percent of the darkness of True Detective. Well you know it’s hard to make a comparison because of the time that they were filmed. I would say the revelation in Twin Peaks were. Yeah I love to kind of you know I would say that you know you’re looking at you’re looking at the late eighty’s early ninety’s version of True Detective in Twin Peaks at least from the amount of you know standpoint you know that being said there was there was definitely comedic element in Twin Peaks that you never ever see introduced or like four or five excellent jokes. Or detective don’t count him out for that matter the guy who went on record as saying and I think it was pretty funny that in itself it was we actually went through them with one of the local art treasures of the theater to appear he when he’s trying to open up about his marriage. Matthew McConaughey says I don’t want to hear the story now and what he says you are the Michael Jordan of being a son. That’s a good one liner. Yeah but it would be one liners where twenty twenty twenty one able to alleviate pain. You know because they had multiple storylines going on that you would sort of you know cut between you know you’d go to like some of the more comical stuff to now the comedy didn’t necessarily always work but I mean the show is I don’t want to be spoilers. You know just to collect for them to magically dramatically it is it goes to a very very dark place. The resolution for I mean it’s no spoiler say the main theme of Twin Peaks during its two seasons was who killed Laura Palmer. That is resolved in the resolution that goes to an extremely dark place in that same time on the whole. Black has so much a thirty second elevator pitch like what what is twenty X. What’s it about. When he’s not pitching it stabilises film I don’t even know what it’s about like you could say Spider man he walks on hitting defense of Matthew No no I’m just saying like like like what is it like what is Twin Peaks like what is that what is going to be the elevator pitch. Twenty three is a story about the homecoming queen whose bodies found on the shore wrapped in plastic she’s dead she’s wrapped in plastic and then the F.B.I. agent who comes to town to solve the murder and as you go along you meet the inhabitants of this town and they’re weird and they are quirky and they are funny and they are dark. Everybody has a secret that that we’ve got thirty seconds and that was a good time. Solid Well I thought it was a very clever title of your book. Let’s promote it since that was the pretense of the conversation. Yeah I think that’s really where we’re talking about apply to comics. I’m happy to do. Also we are to the rats of plastic as a concept you know referencing the body they found I thought was actually kind of funny guys are making it. Argument that in order to approach these sort of deep personal and terrifying themes in television that they had to code it unlike the facade of existing T.V. Tropes. Oh yeah yeah yeah absolutely and that’s that’s very much what the book is Is About To a certain extent. It’s that idea that you know you’re watching daytime soap opera but it is not just a nighttime soap opera you’re watching pretty people be pretty and beautiful but underneath that pretty near that you know that pretty exterior there is a real darkness inside you know so many of the characters. You’re watching a show that knows that it you know using those tropes of a soap opera but twisting them on their head and you know you’ve got the talent all you can do and you’ve got to be the business man to Jerry Ewing type character. You know Jay I slept with a lot of jack. And he you know made deals you know bought his brother back but Benjamin Horn who he did sort of the town big when you’re dealing in murder and he’s you know bad bad dude and then at the same time you’re out there doing dealing with the same character who goes on this journey in an on his journey of you know trying to you know redeem himself if it’s a really interesting show I mean thirty years thirty years twenty five years later. It’s interesting about you know he really tried to take it in even try it get it took T.V. conventions turn them on its head and really just how do you employ that we’re still feeling today you can see Twin Peaks when you watch you know shows like True Detective or you watch shows like Hannibal Bryan Fuller’s accused David Lynch twenty facts. It’s like appearing out of the water and such. Oh yes you’re all a communication that goes outside of rationale. Yeah I mean it’s interesting because some of the lingering influences integrations of twenty is the scene that happens in the red room the Black Watch and you know any as far as I’m concerned any dream sequence that has happened post you know one thousand nine hundred twenty and had that show it’s some sort of inspiration. Whether they want to admit it or not I mean you know for me my favorite example and I’m pretty sure it’s in the book is Buffy season four final episode restless which are where all the school these are you know their their dreams are infiltrated by the First Slayer. You have this kind of weird guy pop up every so often in each person’s dreams and he’s waving you know he’s wearing a suit and he’s waving a piece of cheese and I’m sorry it’s not that is very even more so if you go. You’ve got red curtains that Willow goes through through that throughout her dream and it’s you know just when he said that that was you know that sequence was inspired by twenty felt like red curtains. It’s twenty eight I can make it just in like a child being like ten years old. We’re not supposed to. Disney channel puts on one of their old films and it’s due right. Not only am I watch this and it’s the most mind blowing thing that I’ve ever experienced as a kid and it’s definitely been wildly formative of my creativity from that point forward. And and if you are to be formed by David Lynch that’s probably the safest one to start. It is true but you know we’d steal from you with Twin Peaks I was thirteen when it aired and I watched it you know during the summer of one thousand nine hundred eighty C Did their you know the first seven episodes then they rebroadcast. And I watched it with my mom and it was it’s funny because it’s you know we live in such a different time now in you know I watched it with my mom I was thirteen watching this show with my mom in it you know I would be uncomfortable watching to talk to my parents. Well that’s how you know in spite of the fact that they actually adored it. Like I recommend it to them and they said to me afterwards Max We love the show so much is like really they’re like you know it was like spending an evening with you but you know what you say you said Lee could you sit with him at this point you know I it’s just I feel like we’re in such a different time you know where you know I grew up you know I was a nice kid I grew up in right or wrong you know I watched a lot of horror movies and I’m a fan what Hello horror movies when I was like thirteen fourteen I wish I were movies when I was six seven eight years old you know my dad the cool here you can go in as a kid. Well there you go. It’s you know my guy couldn’t drive three in three D. You know when I was like six and then we would just go off I mean it’s really care what anyone or Leonard Maltin says in his book some good calling out the other classic film of yours. Leonard Maltin is number boy that not it’s not a two star film my friend but. But you know my dad took me to see these movies they would take me see goolies in Gremlins in you know the only mistake I it’s not even a mistake is it help make me who I was but for some reason my dad let me watch the shining when I was like four or five years but today child services would be called you know actually the Shining is an interesting example I tried to watch that and I was like it or not my parents they were they were cool with let me watch stuff I shouldn’t be watching but I could make it through it. Actually I don’t think other than Full Metal Jacket I don’t think I’ve made it through a single Kubrick movie. Just yeah just I just couldn’t get into it it’s like. Half way through it I’m sitting there just wondering when the hell it’s going to start. There’s tits and Eyes Wide Shut them I keep you know I couldn’t make it through it. They were good enough. Wow I you know probably after the conversation now. Lovely mating in the shining in Eyes Wide Shut are in my top ten. Really you know it’s funny I was always I OK I guess it was a day when I went to go see Eyes Wide Shut and I’m so we do it you know I like Tom Cruise or like the cult which I think well if this is a first date that was a bad one. Yeah he was a first date unknown group and I was sitting there he was pretty much going to pay me you know we’re this movie is weird and I’m just like if I like that man actually I had a reverse experience I was sixteen years old and I took a girl to the movies and I was in high school and we’d like the stated premise of this date was we’re going to go to the movies or as we’re going to tell a Pensacola these are really you go for around somewhere else. So we went and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon we sat down for like ten minutes and she’s like we can look over each other like like some were doing the first first act of the movie and I was like did you see this thing. She’s like yeah I want to put up I don’t have the two horny teenagers wont to like the pup the payouts are couple minutes get the movies but compelling. So that’s hilarious being spelled romance like Ang Lee until he did the Hulk he ruined all he ruined all the good credibility he had from Crouching Tiger by producing it all get well with gun owners for the comic books or Eric and Jennifer Connelly stuck in bad in a bad back to the haters Max explain to me the ending of the whole. I still I’ve seen it twice. No idea what happened. SCENE. If the giant whirling water thing is so it’s horrible horrible and not one of the all time worst comicbook and yeah that’s mine. This is so hard for me to think in my head my least favorite one of them’s the least favorite comic book with an ending or whatever but still Twin Peaks. Basically personified evil itself as a separate character. Yeah I mean it’s fair to say that in the end it was personified in the character of Bob and basically what you are what you have in this series is it almost like the there’s a lot of sort of theological things in their occult height type ideas. This notion of the dweller on the threshold of the evil in the woods and in Twin Peaks you have this you know the the idea is incomplete you have this evil surrounding the town that lives in the woods and somebody’s been in this character Bob His name is always capital B. O.B. and it’s interesting because you know I spoke with Jennifer Lynch. David’s daughter and it’s funny I feel like you know sometimes that we’re acting like a like a like a chick a fan talking about Jen But you know how Dick Cavett at school you’re not just kick some ass. You know it’s one of those things where you sort of remember that we you know Roger like you remember the people who really get on board with you right away and you know she was the first person in Twin Peaks more than me and you got a figure like you know there’s a lot of like big game that they’re in. Jen you know she wrote a diary of Laura Palmer and she really helped create the character and she was the first person that I talked to in the stuff I learned that I had no idea about and I had no idea how influential she was on creating this character. Or Laura Palmer who has really become an icon and we talk and she always felt like the character of Bob and I’m not going to go into spoiler territory. The character of Bob may or may not be just the embodiment of evil it could it could represent something else. But you know one of the big things about the show is that you know everyone has a secret and you know you it’s you know you are surrounded by you know things that you don’t necessarily understand you know maybe that’s life or maybe it’s some kind of evil representation who knows but it’s you know part of it is a you know see how all these people sort of deal with you know their lot in life. It’s it’s an interesting I mean it’s it’s an interesting show it’s not a perfect show as far as I’m concerned you know the details of the systematic difficulties to make it. Well yeah I mean you know so the first the first he didn’t get very very well you know first if you can for me or the charm movie at thirty four million viewers which is amazing and you know you get all the buzz in the part of the huge and you know the actors are on the cover. There’s merchandising that can mean going into in their infinite wisdom maybe if you decided to air this show that had become the de facto introduction of water cooler television where you gather you know which airs on a Sunday or thirteen you gather around the water cooler the next day and you talk about what you’ve seen with your co-workers and he thought that this very cool hit show that everyone was talking about would do really well on Saturday night at ten o’clock when people are watching the Golden Girls an empty nest. Stupid and it just screwed everything up. Because the audience for Twin Peaks. These guys were out on Saturday night after the audience was so you know that that’s exactly you don’t think about it like we had time you know the one nine hundred ninety the fall of one thousand nine hundred people don’t have D.V.R. so you know and if you’re so inclined to tape it yeah OK you’re going to tape it but it just immediately ruins the notion of what the show is going to be about you know everything time gave them winter Mark Rothko created a show which becomes less involved so you get less of that sort of weirdness that he brought to the table. It’s not there you know you’re losing that weirdness as trying to say you know Mark Croft didn’t do a lot but he did a hell of a lot and he is you know with everything that’s happening right now with whether or not there’s going to be a twenty three people need to remember that David Lynch is only one half of the equation. Also another having a huge part of that. But you had people writing stories on your not that word either of them so you know it just it was something that burned so brightly and then came really crashing down hard and well suddenly you go from having thirty four million viewers for your premier to your second season premier being beaten on N.B.C. by a Perry Mason movie of the week. There’s nothing cool about that that that you know when you’re supposed to be the hottest thing going and appearing in B.B.Q. or watching like seeing the numbers on that was a Sunday night I remember seeing the numbers on the Monday on Entertainment Tonight and I guess I was pretty media savvy even back then I was thirteen years. I’m like well that’s not good. Everyone is talking about the show and Perry Mason come alive you know and then you have the Gulf War So the show gets preempted and he gets preempted again and he kept moving all over the place. The biggest issue that I think happened was that you know in that early you know early going to is you have got a murder mystery going on and you want that thing solved the creators have no intention of solving it. Exactly. Yeah one hundred percent. Yeah exactly the same. Yes You know I like the first one but but that’s the biggest problem I think is that you know what audience is if you if he would have said OK Twin Peaks we’re going to do fourteen episodes and we’d like you to solve the murder by the end. Can you kind of know where you’re going but the intention was for the murder to become Lord always murder to be to go off into a sort of you know the perp would have been on the periphery. Well do you want to cut you off but you were saying that these were the guys who kind of made the first leap into high art television you know. Absolutely So I mean they know how to do it right it’s not easy. Definitely definitely not in it but you know what I don’t. Sometimes people don’t know how to do it that was the perfect example but I think I don’t think Lost was trying to be high art I mean I think last just a particularly compelling soap opera but it really was just pretty much that it’s lost its plot is lost. Yeah I mean like I tried to start watching it and sometime middle season four I was living with a guy and his wife who were like super into it and it was just it was trash. I mean it’s so bad that like I’m surprised like and then I see like what J.J. Abrams does with Star Trek which I thought. It’s actually pretty good. Yeah and it’s like it’s almost like that a different like completely different director I mean last was it was impossible for me to figure out what the hell was going on because everyone spoke in freaking questions like you know what’s going on. What do you think’s going on. Well you know why would you want to move the plot something I can’t take it. Yeah you know I mean there was you know I talked to Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse and you know they they’re very well aware of Twin Peaks. Now you know I think they fell into some of those issues but we really you know the show you know after it’s interesting the talk to one of the writers for my book and Harley and he was a writer and co-producer he did some really great stuff on the show and he said you know it’s very in vogue it’s always been in vogue to say you know one is awesome even two is shit but there are some really good things that happened in season two and there are the first seven episodes are as good and work. It’s what happens when you finally solve the murder that it just goes completely off the rails. There are moments of great art in there the last hour is incredible. I have seen it on it’s mind bending. Yeah that’s it it is mind bending and it is like the fact that it happened on network T.V. back in one thousand nine hundred eighty is it was unprecedented. It’s like whoa these guys were back. Nothing they’ve done in LA I like Henry Cavill is Superman but I think he did a good job I think it’s cool that Ben Affleck playing Batman I don’t think it’s cool. Sorry you don’t like it. Recorder just started with a hater just Ben Affleck you know when or if you just say you are going to get back to me on that Max it’s not even over the year because it says Hollywood saves the to say. If the hostages was the whole reason but it was a good movie. Same with The King’s Speech it was broadcasting saved the war wins the war. Sorry guys you know our goal was to get in the end I thought Ben Affleck was pretty good in Gone Girl and I think he’s got the right look for Rhys Wayne for not for a lot of grizzled you know lying really only forty degree swing really only pissed off because well I was pissed off because I’m a hater. Now I’m pissed off because they closed down my building’s garage to film a Ben Affleck movie here and I can part can park here and then it is called Batman The Superman is called the accountant. It’s got that one. Yes got Anna Kendrick in and out and everyone wrote like Ben I want to choose Lovelace shares unlikes Cup song did you know that she was she I don’t think you I don’t know if you’ve any words issue. EDGAR WRIGHT I have no idea what you know you know there’s any Kendrick again I mean she was briefly read it like a love fest. Girl until Jennifer Lawrence was never what did she do. Why she famous she sang in Scott Pilgrim and. She is perfect. Yeah well she just you know Cinderella she was seen one of those. We’re going to see a comic one recently. Yeah I’ll take your word for it. Actually I will say I’ll sounds like an advocate because it’s kind of petty and I’m sure he’ll do a great job but I thought the alchemy and casting role because Cal drug and Game of Thrones one is awesome. Two guys from New Zealand and like if you’ve ever done business with a New Zealander they always say listen we would keep up with America economically if we all didn’t quit work for three months to go sailing. Like people are implicitly like Aqua Man from there is like a perfect sort of I wonder hero type that was really going to fit culturally with. Maybe not the king or religion that they kind of go with the Lantus but more like water. People warrior style. My biggest problem with Ben Affleck is that he’s kind of a comment. I mean here he does want to record somebody I think is P.B.S. did a documentary and they revealed that he like one hundred forty years ago had slave owners and his family and he wanted to be quiet about that because he’s you know you know slave owners don’t comply with his modern progressive values and that’s that’s that’s all well and good but do you remember where you went to college Harvard and before that high school was at Exeter. This is a kid of privilege in one hundred forty years ago. His parents are his great great great great parents had so much money and power that they had slaves which means that here he is earning a fortune to add to the fortune he was born with and then he goes on shows like Bill Maher and tells people like me how we should live our lives because we’re just not as enlightened as he is and it’s it’s very hard for me to reconcile in my mind giving a shit what someone who’s never struggled for anything in his life has to say about the plight of the modern man to know Ben Affleck and struggle a lot you saw the Internet react to him being Batman. The plight of the AFT like yeah yeah yeah. He’s been dealing with something like that even if you a bad man boy he doesn’t get to do a Batman ways it’s all you know it’s like he’s got a legal voice if you don’t get to go like this and you know I know this isn’t the part of the conversation but I got good enough to do that he was a perfectly fine but I did notice program he did he did do it is Birdman which is more of a just a swan song for his career and a swan song for it was just talk and triumph was when I was well to describe it as you will it was excellent. It does you see Bergman I see Bergman and it’s funny because I’m a too much of a fan of my Hanna Barbera Birdman you’re like this doesn’t go well. A source material. So my my day job is I work at Sirius X.M. So I’m Casillas think Howard Stern and Howard absolutely hated birdbath and I’ve never seen anyone notion made a movie more. Oh he hated it and Sistine corellas on Monday and he was like a eunuch thank me if you were in the US it’s like yeah I think you’d like that in your paper and if you like Nike and he’s like now you’re just saying that because you want to be politically minded you really hate birthdays like now I kind of like like you don’t know what you’re talking about and I’ve never heard Howard the movie more than bird you know I’m really happy right up Howard Stern when we very first started as Max and I were just you know we had no shame and they were still making up as we go along but we were really making it up back in first couple episodes so I start listen to talk radio more both podcasts and am and Howard Stern and also I’m up there with your Doesn’t sound weird to just roll with me were to go to morrow and we’re coming right back to the shire I just all that for about an hour. OK like a Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh are the best. For vastly different reasons but they’re the best. I’ve never found anyone more entertaining who’d never trip over their own words who are consummately professional You can’t knock them off balance if they can bring in the craziest most outlandish guest. They are not afraid to say anything and it’s always interesting one hundred percent. You know so and so in trying to work out where I am where I live we have brought in Howard when I say we need a radio station a couple years before I started working there the radio station at Broad and Howard Lutnick still interest real radio. And they thought that he would make an impact and he did he did OK but I don’t think that Howard was fifteen years ago is not really the Howard today. His interviews over the past you know five years and he did even. More granular in the past two years are incredible. He so you know thoughtful you know he’ll go for you know sometimes it’s a lay shooter you know like you know he still like horn kicks coming in and everything we got is but for the most part I mean you put him in a room when he’s talking with you know when he’s interviewing Madonna or Ben Stiller or he just did an hour and a half last week with Louis C.K. That was incredible. And he’s just one of the most insightful. You know interviewers around here. He’s pretty amazing you know in in it. He’ll never ever boring. Someday he pissed off but he himself is never boring in the show really is never boring either. It’s pretty amazing. You’re not going to reach your best content unless you’re just totally comfortable with yourself you know and if that’s absolutely what is interesting as you know you just you can’t be self analyzing self critical unless your whole point is a facade. I mean and I think people see through that especially in sort of a colloquial radio long form conversation aspect. You know if you’re just going to be big smiles like happy lovey bubble gummy you’re only going to last one minute and then cut to the next thing. But if that goes any longer you’re a waste of fucking time. Well that’s when that’s the C.S.S. Mark Mehran. I mean he what he does with his podcast is nothing short of remarkable in that he gets people to open up in a way that maybe maybe Howard Stern can also do this but I haven’t seen anyone else on podcasting really you know get get the deep stuff out of people. Now perhaps I’ve been listening to some self selecting interviews because he did recently did like Allie Allie Brasher a liberal or something like that the girl whose whole book is about depression so you know the first thing she does open up like she’s talking. At therapist but then he knew how to roll with some fucked up stories and take him back just just didn’t seem like enough of the light so that like the whole episode wasn’t just vomiting filth and like you know that the you know the banks that like teenage years they created that would lead to like suicide attempts and stuff like that but at the same time right. He also allowed her to be able to you know get across you know it’s like it’s like a very broad audience I mean when we were done listening to it my brother and I listen to the same time like Ian looked over and he was just like god damn i was like yeah I was. You mention audience you shouldn’t even be thinking about it you know like at all if you’re if you’re if the point is to get deep into someone just to make them feel welcome make them like open and vulnerable and feel comfortable doing that. Like it’s just a bubble of like comfort and then we’ll share it with the world you know but I couldn’t. But I’m talking to you guys I really feel open and vulnerable. Well I hope you’re comfortable with that. We’re not even wearing pants. Oh good I’m not the only one. Yeah it’s Marin though I love him to death but sometimes a lot of it just seems to be like copied from his therapist. Someone says that this is like why so well because of this why is because of this. Why do you go easy on him he’s been in therapy for the past thirty five years. Oh you know that’s a good lesson it’s a good lesson you should be in touch with yourself and I think it makes you a better host right away not to have that giant philosophical side point on our careers. Then Julie wasn’t prepared. Wells Now that we’ve breached into the subject let’s get back into Twin Peaks and the existential side like OK so I really like her chapter that kind of summarized all the cult references to it between you know I think yeah that was it that was a fun one to do that was a fair man to research it’s interesting when you do. We’re just like that too and you know it’s I have a you know I knew a lot about the series of course you having lived with him for so long but then he sort of I’ve kind of developed a little bit of a cult fascination over the last couple years. Far from an expert but well I do want you to tell us like what is what is it with the occult. I mean I mean do you think it’s real. Oh man it’s magic pill that can you tell us can you believe it’s that’s funny that you know I mean it was a radio show here in Toronto that I listen to a guy that I used to work with his name is Gary Bell the spaceman is going to coast to coast. He’s a guy you know what it’s the show is similar. He’s not related to our little family we’re all just just weird. Yeah. I’m sorry keep going you know Gary Bell the spaceman on a channel in intricate six AM six forty eight and he is you know he’s a card carrying you know believer in the Illuminati and you know you know he knows all about all of the plot and like a loser showing everything. Damn Right yeah right. In Alister Crowley in the whole you know real society. Yeah yeah so I you know I developed you know I would say a peripheral interest fascination with without World Three listening to this guy and and actually knowing the guy to a really interesting guy. Long hair washboard abs probably about fifty something that’s really that really doesn’t describe my average experience with a cult Illuminati. You know it’s funny like you would sort of you would see him in you know trying to get a lot of people because the guy this guy’s a talker and so you’d be in our office people would want to talk to him because he started talking he’ll keep you you know he’ll keep talking for a while but he was always really kind to me and he’s got a really incredible voice you know really soothing sort of calm voice when he was talking when he would do a show in you know this is a guy that goes on the air Saturday night often for four hours no phone calls. He just talks. He’ll get the e-mails every so often but it was through him that I sort of got the you know I learned a little bit about you know the Illuminati and you know all that world. So yeah I do I do I believe in it I mean I don’t know but I you know I was this is the spirit for sure. OK I wasn’t I wasn’t literally putting on the spot there although it was I’m glad that you said everything you just said because I’ve got you know personally like like I like to look at U.F.O. stuff on the Internet. I mean like yeah sure it’s fun. Like is it literally aliens out there I don’t care. And that’s and that’s the point is like I don’t care I just I look at it it’s a little bit by just to talk about it and stuff. If I ever want to if I ever want to piss off my wife all I have to do is bring up the moon landing. All I have to do. Actually we have to manage engineering degree fuck you did seriously the Russians had every interest in proving that wrong and they never did. Well actually that we definitely had gone to the moon. There’s a mirror they left up there we can shine a laser up it’ll come right back. Yeah you know I think we I don’t know if we should go this route. Are all you know is that if I if my wife will look at me with such disdain when I see you don’t really think we will. Well well your wife whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. It’s just I like to see the look on her face when I won arguments to bring light. Like Honey you’ve been to the moon. Have you been to the moon. Tell me what you see there. Oh you have it. While we go talk to the mosque you can tell us we made it. He hasn’t been either but in regards to him regarding the occult in Twin Peaks I mean it’s one of those things that I wasn’t aware of you know so much until I started really getting into the book you know a little bit more so because Mark Frost road has written novels and in he would sort of he was very familiar with guys like Alister Crowley about skeet and so I was able to kind of go into when I was writing about you know the series you know I knew that that had been an influence on him and you know I was lucky and you know I tried to interview that guy and I never really got a chance. Never got a response except I sent him a tweet and I said Is it fair to say you’re familiar with the works of Allister Crowley I’m broke and he tweeted back he said that’s absolutely fair and I’m like that’s going in the book. That’s public I just. Yeah I think I you know he tweeted with Kyle McLaughlin I’m like I don’t care that you don’t need a footnote. Your conversational good time of life I will tell you what I adore about the cult and it just feels like it feels like a priest a priest psychoanalytic method of trying to essentially interact with the and conscious as it exists for us and so in a pre therapy society like wow we can see in ways where you know control of the public because they overreacted to a comment and shit like that you know like that’s you know. As Tyson hates that shit and I mean I totally agree with the place where it fails you know like religion saying gays shouldn’t have access to rights that’s bullshit you know. But in the West and the places where like that’s not a cult that’s dogma. But all those dogs are not one and the same. They pretty much are but a cult can be so dogmatic. Alan Moore’s dogmatic cult. I I don’t know if he is dogma he’s a ceremonial he’s like very hard to like the rights of it whereas Grant Morrison would say it’s much you have to separate it from it to get more. I love how we’re still staying with comic book artists as we discuss this entire subject. Well that’s actually what I respect about comics is that they are the only medium of art I know of that really says I don’t give a fuck and that could be a response to the extreme censorship they had to go through during a for like decades after after Tales From The Crypt basically scared everyone to death. They put the comic books seal approval on only conflicts that you know that people thought were OK and I didn’t come off until the eighties at which point they did some super weird stuff and really won’t get back to the occult stuff because in comic books they are readily in even more so than novels they’ll go until like the very minute detail of tarot cards and of. Astrology end of demonology I mean like the specific demonology that scares the shit out of you like they will talk about that in a comic in a way that even stephen king I’ll just be like. Not only research well at least to me like at least for the artist it mention like David Lynch Especially as well are extremely conscious of the subjects’ relationship with the media that he consumes and that they’re trying to interact in a means that does not work as simply as I like reading a poem moves you in ways that are more than just the words on the page. You know it is a change. Experience that’s true for any art and these people are trying to essentially craft that precise experience in a way that it’s very difficult because of looking at it as source material and then leaves you after the fact very changed. Well that is a which is literally the definition of magic which is why these people get so like intense unlike ancient study of precisely the effect of media on the public. Well it makes sense if you look at a comic book as you know progressive art and then you compare to runes or hieroglyphics which as they move forward you know they cast a spell. It’s of it’s virtually the exact same thing I think I was watching Number six where it starts the first panel last panel are mirror images of each other and like the entire episode goes through it like it reaches the zenith at the halfway point work at the story switches from characters A and B. to character C. and D. and they essentially mirror everything to happen in the first half of the story and the first time you read it. If you’re like me it’s like Oz because they really put a story in a very artful manner and then like you think about something like that they’re going to look back at that in like it starts to reveal like like many layers and as you the reader start to uncover those things start to realize like oh shit there’s like there’s like a lot more going on underneath the hood here and that act of self exploration is the change because you’re the one who’s kind of you’re feeling this act of discovery. It’s it’s the it’s a high it’s that’s my passion that’s really interesting. And the only time I feel like I’ve always personally had that experience is reading Stephen King’s The Dark Tower especially that ending in the first book where it’s literally playing out is a is a taro draw and so you just go through this cosmic transformation Yeah yeah. Then I had at the end of the first one yeah that. It’s lost on me I really don’t understand the time I read the first three books and half of the fourth and I quickly realized I don’t understand this summer came back to it. For me to be honest for me it was a life it was literally you know but the notion of magic that it felt very what you were saying here felt very much like my experience with The Dark Tower more so than really any other form of media that I have you know and I’m a passionate media consumer you know of pop culture and everything but nothing has ever affected me really more than than reading that Dark Tower and it’s interesting so I read it in a in a fairly kind against time period I was doing a commute from you know to work and I was basically commuting two hours a day and I had just gotten in the reader in so what was I going to you know my wife I got me an a Sony Reader and when I got the router. So I felt determined to you know I read the first blog previously but probably ten years fifteen years ago and I’m like I’m going to read The Dark Tower. That’s what I’m going to do with the reader and I will read it and you know by the time you get to the end of it for me it’s you know we hear like the term you know your kid like a war of words peaches Oh you know it was such a journey you know we go on this journey blah blah blah and it’s like yeah. Frickin dark hour for you with the incredible journey in this incredible storytelling experience that you know I remember where I was at certain moments in getting shivers up in my arm and goosebumps at certain moments in in you know when I finished it I I don’t know if I would go to go so far so safe feel transformed. But I kind of felt that way. I ended up. Getting a tattoo last year dark red large what. Yeah OK yeah. So basically it’s inspired by the Michael Golden artwork and it’s that which was asked by the way the artwork in the Dark Tower was it isn’t sad. Amazing right. So it’s like God It’s a tower and there’s rose and there’s a pathway that you can see in the tower goes past the sunset into the sky surrounded by clouds and I mean it’s on my arm so I’m going to think it’s beautiful really. It really is and it’s interesting because you know to a certain extent and I transform myself because that book right. I see something of such to give a good sacrifice of paying for the opportunity to. EXPRESS implicitly. Yeah that’s a great that’s the perfect way of saying it you know and but it’s interesting because that’s you know it would be nice if you know we could have those experiences you know maybe it’s only good to have them you know wearily in terms of you know when you consume something like pop culture you know I’ve got a twin peaks that you as well I’ve got the owl petroglyphs that you see in the series and I I got that again but I finished I think it’s probably my third draft on the book and I sent it in to my editor and I touch parlor just around the corner from me and never been in there before but I was like I just want to commemorate this moment but those are those end up being quite a few and far between which is probably great if everything you know everything you experience you know pop culturally with some significant I’d be probably covered in tattoos which wouldn’t go over very well to commemorate like real coming and it’s moments you know like. That’s hardcore you know. Yeah look me and I never thought that I would ever write a book you know I went to University in Toronto and I did my undergrad in English in creative writing and I wrote that shit and I was OK I wasn’t great I do you know went to York University. OK So yes so you know I was OK but I you know I could never I don’t know if I think you would ever have been published not because I did not have the patience or the drive to send the short story. Sure you know you know you’re also not a huge scope them so well I don’t know but you know that’s that’s you know that’s a lot. But you know my thought of doing of writing a book sort of finished and then when I started writing you know whether I was ready in radio or when I was writing for Biff them papa I was quite very lucky in that I was able to you know have my regular income you know as a writer not necessarily writing novels or articles and then at the same time you have to have pop right like that pop culture stuff but I guess two a half years ago I was at a book launch and I wish I knew some of the people from E.T.W. press to the publicist and they had suggested that he want to get you a book for our pop classics line that we’ve just started and so my thought was Oh OK I’ll pitch Twin Peaks because I knew it I loved it. I’d never done a pitch before but someone suggested it so I knew at the very least someone was going to look at my pitch. It wasn’t going to not knocking the D.C. I knew that for sure so I’m like OK well I’ll at least do it because I know someone will look at it and you know. Give me the time of day you know and in I it’s funny because I sent it in and I heard back pretty quickly that they had already chosen their books for their first inaugural season and I was like OK that’s fine and I forgot about it. You know I just kind of moved on with with my life and I guess about four months later I got an email from another editor apologizing for not getting back to me sooner. Saying we should talk about it and it was like Wow OK And you know it’s I didn’t see it but I didn’t really dream I’d have a book but if I were ever to have been published it was by the publisher he doesn’t do that I want to be published by and you know with the one thing that you know people think you can go to write a book and it’s so easy it’s not. You know I’ve spoken to people in and you know I’ve encountered a few writers in my time of if they’re popular you know it’s a bit of a sense of like oh I can do this I can do that and it’s like you know writing you know. Yeah it’s you know like when we Yeah I mean all I know is that you know it it was a very rewarding experience to write my first book it with a very solitary experience and you also learn I mean one I was blessed with really good editors as well I don’t think editors get enough credit because it is it is collaborative You know and you want it you want that editors that you’re working with to be able to sort of give you ideas and at the same time as a writer you need to be open to it as an editor for Pop I’ve dealt with a few writers who get their news in the air when you make a suggestion and I’m just trying to make your piece because it’s possible that you know that’s the whole point. This is because genes and genius and uniquely well him and I don’t know if it was his first one but one of the earliest books from the old game it was a biography of Douglas Adams you know when he went really really yeah it was called Don’t panic and it’s really weird because at the time I was obsessed with hitchhikers guide I found a biography as a gallery this than like five to ten years later I read the Sandman and this is amazing. And then out of nowhere and one of the introductions A says Well my first book was a document was a biography of Douglas Adams I’m like no fucking way is my favorite question Arthur accidentally someone started with so long ago. Because I think that’s hilarious That’s a weird full circle thing for you know it’s interesting you keep bringing up really bringing up how hard writing is I’ve I’ve always had like the bug but I’ve lacked the talent to so I don’t know a single writer who doesn’t have trouble with writing I mean I’ve got more aborted novels on both my personal and work hard drive it’s OK My boss doesn’t love this but but I mean like I’ve downloaded I mean I’ve I’ve got I mean like literally like five or six different novels like they’re they’re all over the place there’s like there’s a ghost story that really started to come together and then toward the end twenty fourteen meant that one just like it just like I was I was a little disappointed when it left because it’s like the news only comes around like when she’s like flirty or something you had to care for me and then yeah and then when she leaves she’s gone and it’s in it’s so far gone or maybe it’s just like I’m not committed enough to the art form to finish it and and it’s also kind of just crushing because I said you know earlier I guess just last year as I said fuck it I’ll never write a novel I really want to write a novel numbers a stupid i don’t need it I’ll write a short story that I can do. So I wrote a goddamn short story and I submit it to anyone who would let me submit it and they all told me no so really. They’re all stupid and everything about writing is stupid and like I haven’t written anything since it’s just like it’s so crushing to like put so much effort and like like honestly like even if that shit I try really hard and that shit like they’re doing right now like it’s not good enough I’m like well well you know I mean like it’s not it’s like I mean both of you were describing as a reader being a jury like creationists. Hell it’s it’s bad it did it so I don’t know I don’t hear I don’t hear things down to be a hater I don’t I don’t like cruise control you know being a hater so easy but I don’t know anyone who actually likes writing special professional writers. They’ll bitch about it first what do you think I think I even you know what I like I said I’m lucky because I get to do it and it’s the only thing I’ve ever wanted to do is write. OK And so in my professional life I get to write every day in my personal life I get to write but you know it’s interesting because for me in my you know in my outside endeavors I’m not going to write anything that people aren’t going to read. So I don’t work on short stories and I don’t I don’t have the inclination to. I’ve written one should keep in mind I used to write a ton of fiction you know in high school and university and I did my degree but since then I haven’t written anything because no one was going to read it. I’ve written one short story in the past ten years. It was part of an anthology that we decided to put together for a bit fam pop and try to put it in there. At least I knew that I had a place to put it and I guess you know so what I’m working on now is doing. I’m about to start work on a book on American Psycho that’s going to get published by go to a press for their theories for their line of horror books called The Devil’s Advocate. I’m going to give you I’m going to write about the I was going to write about the film version of Mary Karen so I know people are going to read it you know what I mean like I know that someone’s going to read it and I know it’s going to get published and that’s great but on the other end of that is I’m also trying I want to do a book on Lou Reed’s New York album and I want to say that that was a very influential album for me but I’m kind of hitting a wall in terms of disguise and I want to talk to him and not getting back to me and yada yada yada. If I don’t get sort of the response that I want I’m not going to do it because there’s just no sense in doing it. Do you know what I mean so for me it’s weird because I’m I was over the last couple years like you know I ate only after wrapping five to getting published but I kind of feel comfortable calling myself a writer I feel like it’s I feel like you got to earn that title. Do you know what I mean right. Anyway he’s trying to make a buck or you know what the fuck they’re doing it themselves can go on Linked In. Well you know it sounds high falutin that’s not meant to be but you know if someone asked me what I’d do if I just kind of feel like now I can say I’m a writer and I think that’s sort of the power of actually having a book published you know and I don’t know why because it’s probably just my own you know it’s my own you know I don’t know I don’t know why that is but I just I feel like it’s a title that I gotta earn. Like the hustle. Like people don’t take you seriously unless you’ve done something and you can’t do something else they take you seriously like it’s a complete Catch twenty two. If it’s true it’s it’s one hundred percent true and I will say this you know the fam part is never to make any money off of it and you know there’s this argument that you know you can write for free. Well none of us write for free on there we write for opportunity and if I didn’t have that website I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to write this book if I didn’t have that Web site. I would I would have gone the last three jobs I had if I didn’t have if you know we work and if I was in control into that Web site or other people weren’t contributing to that website I know they also would not have gotten jobs. So it’s you know it’s for everyone it’s as though right for