Adi Da is Dead
January 2, 2009 at 5:10 am
Wow I am a guy myself and I have never seen so much head stuff talking in my life. I was in Adidam off and on since 1975 and am not for years now. I do not imagine that I could ever figure out someone like Adi Da. But I do feel that spriituality is a real thing, as opposed to many here like this guy Raymond, who feel that spirituality in general is just plain false. I personally have never thrown out the baby with the bathwater, no matter what my current feelings about Adi Da and Adidam. Contrary to the idiotic “scientific”: beliefs of our dark western “civilization” spirituality is real and so is realization. you cannot prove this with scientific means our through constant mental gymnastics and critiques. Certainly I have questioned the different aspects of Adi Da and Adidam like the financial stuff and all the other stuff, but there is no denying the sort of spiritually bright and conscious transmission around the person of Adi Da and in his sanctuaries and so forth . not placebo and not insane. I can read both side and will never have any answers, so be it. The only really balanced post I have read here is the refreshing and recent one by Morgan Callahan and on his personal site. thank you for that one. I had not heard his name for years and met him once in 1975 . Really I could care less about the jargon of arguments on either side of the fence, but have at it and have fun Flick Rahke who is not afraid to put his real name
January 4, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Nice post NC it’s good to feel that connection with Spirit, wherever it comes from. Personally maybe I will get into a bit of “head” stuff here myself, since I am a man after all. I find it interesting that the three biggest teachers in my life of spirituality died in the past year. Maharishi, Sri Chinmoy, and Adi Da. I learned the TM thing when I was 22 and strung out on hard drugs and could not quit them. The TM worked for me. I did it for years. Now there is a lot of controversy around Maharishi too, like maybe he approache Mia Farrow sexually, but that has pretty much been debunked now. Certainly there has been a kind of “cult” grown up around him and the “yogic flying” seems pretty silly. Still TM saved my life and Maharishi and his teachings have been very beneficial to many. I can’t find fault with his ideal of “world peace” through the vehicle of many people meditating. Now it is is easy for the doubt mind to debunk anything “spiritual” and always throw out the baby with the bath water.
When I was a young ballet dancer in New York, I went to an intro with Sri Chinmoy and this was my first experience of a transmission guru. I felt an intense descending light and bliss in his personal company and also meditatiing on his photo.I became a disciple and wore all white and tried to be celibate and hung out with Carlos Santana and John McGlauphlin who were also disciples. Now I could not handle the sort of strictness with that guru and the two musicians also left in their own time, but that does not devalue Sri Chinmoy or his group in any way. he was very respected in the United Nations did some cool yogic tricks with lifting weights and so forth. His transmission was very real and quite blissful also. Also is was pretty cultic around him , as it always is around a charismatic transmission guru. people like to feel blissful.
I came across Adi Da in 1975 in New York when I heard “Garbage and the Goddess” on WBAI radio “IN the Spirit” by lex Hixon. I had a bad flu and was so moved by Da’s laughter, that I had a sudden and spontaneous lifting of the flu. I read the KOL and saw a “A diffiicult Man” and went to California to join the community. This was the only time I have every felt actual transmission from a book. I felt it in all of Adi Da’s books. For most people, including myself, a relationship with Adi Da is a mixed bag. I felt incredible light and clear and conscious bliss and also states of non separation or “non duality” around him just like he always described in his books. There was always a hard edge to being a disciple of his though. And a certain sort of “darkness” , but I would not necessarily say it is the community’s darkness or Adi Da’s darkness. We all have our dark side and I tend toward depression and fear myself. This is a pretty weird life. Of course Adi Da was not your usual teacher or guru. I know people who were around him in the inner stuff and some feel bad about it and others feel just fine. I never was around the inner stuff and only got the “trickle down” Some people say they were hurt. I don’t know any of them personally except for a couple ahnd they are both still very angry. So everyone who was ever with Adi Da is still trying to figure the whole thing out. many play the “gotcha” game and he is easy to play this game with because of his controversial activities. I think it is a good thing to call out abuses in any arena , whether it be political or spiritual. I would say that George Bush has dwarfed any guru in history with his abuse of the whole world . So is goes round and round and we always feel abused by life itself. But Adi Da has passed now, and people are still so angry that they are beating a dead corpse. Wow I would check out this anger thing.
I am pretty versed in the Traditions since I have studied extensively in Buddhism and under Tibetan lamas and also zen and vipassana. These are real practicing schools. I have never been much attracted to the Ramana lineage myself , partially because it can be pretty mental and I have seen the circus that Poonjaji created by creating all these mini gurus like Andrew Cohen and Gangaji, both of which I have seen and I feel to be real “talking school” so to speak, Just my opinion and preference,
But many love Ramana Maharshi and also Sri Nisardagatta and I respect that for their practice with their teachings. There is certainly and incredible radiance coming off the photos of Ramana and this is not to be discounted. I feel that your really can tell something about a teacher by their photo. This is an intuitive matter and not a mental one.
I have also spent quite a bit of tiime around Ammachi , the hugging saint, and there is a very strong transmission with her too. Of course, many people debunk her too. And certainly it is somewhat “cultic” around her. So what .
I gave lots of money to Adi Dam and to Adi Da personally although it was all underground. I am pretty broke now , but i do not regret it . I felt good about it at the time and felt like i was doing some good with my money rather than hoarding something that never really belongs to you to start with. Generosity is a founding principle of Buddhism. Money comes and goes, and we are closer to death every moment, Flick Rahke
January 4, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Well a big thing that I have learned hanging out a bit on this blog is that sprituallity is purely a matter of intellect and the conceptual mind. Also busting all the gurus and cults. All gurus except for Ramana Maharshi are off. Devotion and bhakti are for cultists and fools and people who don’t think on our usual western lines of thought. Well I have never been much of a bhakti myself, but the purely intellectual and purely mind critical approach to spirtuality is a bit thick for me here . oh well whatever each to his own. Keep up the vindictive anger and the spiritual bantering. Unfortunately it just keeps producing more of same Flick Rahke over and out
January 5, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Hey conrad I am doing o.k. although I have this bizarre flu that I cannot seem to shake. I would rather be surfing the ocean instead of the internet and dancing ecstatically rather than trying to to talk about it. Thanks for that post and clarifying it a bit for me. I am going to post again later and explain more what I feel is good about Adi Da and some other gurus, including Ramana. I am laughing as I write this when you ask me if I am rejoining Adidam now. It does sound like that doesn’t it? No I would rather watch from a distance and see what happens. I do feel some spiritual connection to Adi Da and other spiritual types which I will explain later. I mean I was on a retreat with Ammachi when Adi Da passed on. There were two friends of mine there too, both who only refer to
adi da as “Frank” and really hate him. Anyhow I was very “blissed out” on the retreat with Amma and did not really feel any grief over the passing of Adi
da, even though he has meant a lot to me over the years. No I am not rejoining Adidam now. I am not saying I would never be a part of it in the future. The future is uncertain.
hey Conrad I hope you and your family are doing very well and of course , do not take anything I say here personally, as we go way back and I like you and your family very much. I also respect your spiritual practice and have nothing against anyone on this forum Flick Rahke
January 6, 2009 at 7:13 pm
I wonder where this anti marijuana witch hunt comes from? Are we returning to J. Anslinger and Hoover? Personally I see nothing particularly wrong with pot and what Is the big deal if Adi Da smoked it? I have smoked it myself and I did inhale and I am not the worse for it in any way. Sadhus in India use tons of hashish and ganja. Perhaps if someone around here got the joint passed to them , they might find a little humor and be able to laugh at things a bit more Flick
January 7, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Well it is certainly true that it is not hard to become discouraged with the “spiritual” life because realization does not come easy or overnite and it is true that most humans do not even consider it real especially here in the west, where the cult of “scientific materialism’ is worshipped. Realization or enlightenment is certainly not common in the entire history of humankind. Yet still there have been enlightened and free beings in all the great traditions of humankind. So people do often throw out the baby with the bathwater, because realization is not guaranteed and does not come easy. It is easy here in the west to get lured back into a totally materialistic view of existence since that is our common brainwashing here.
If this is your view, then I think smoking a joint could be useful to counteract the terrible loss of humor that this view provokes. Our one could continue a meditative practice and contemplating things a bit deeper.
All the mentalizing and researching in the world will not satisfy the deeper need for nonduality and the free and natural state. It is a matter of deep intuition and knowing or gnosis, that can sometimes be supported by the mind and concepts in the form of studying and contemplating dharma. Still , non duality is not realized by seeking or all the practice in the world. I think it is a sort of a “Grace” or “Transmission” that allows the natural state of freedom to be revealed to the individual. And since nondualtiy means “not two” or in other words “Oneness” then there is no individual left over to realize “It”. So thus one describes the dissolution of the ego sense and activity. the “I” thought . The yogic practices balance the body and mind and the meditative process allows the squirming monkey mind to calm down and enough insight to dawn as to the nature of the small self. Then one can be open enough to actually realize what is given. I am sure that this is a for real process. It takes a commitment over a life time though . So please pass that joint this way.
I think people in general , including devotees of Adi Da and his detractors of which there are an abundance of here, have missed the point of what Adi Da was doing and is still doing. That includes Morgan Callahan, who mostly refers to Bubba as his friend and teacher and the whole Community experiment thing, which was and is a failure. People are obsessed with all the ways that Adi Da lived in his personal life and how he treated people harshly and yelled at them and so forth and squanderd money on art and went through periods of drinking a lot with people and then smoking a lot of pot with people and having sex and watching porn and it goes on and on. Of course all these things did not seem to me what an “enlightened ” person would tend to do. But it never bothered me much to speak the truth. I was lucky to never have a friendly or personal relationship to Adi
da and was never a climber in his community. It always seemed to me that the climbers fell the hardest and became the most bitter people in the long run. The biggest egos always seem to fall the hardest, which is o.k. since that is what they need in a “spiritual” sense. Still i never liked the trickle down guilt sort of stuff and that is the kind of stuff that got me to leave the community over time. I never really cared about Adi
da’s personal life, because it did not affect me.
What did affect me from my very first contact with Adi da in the form of even books and pics and movies was his spriitual transmission. He was and still is a transmission guru. There is still transmission even in his later and difficult to read writings, if yu can open to it at all. I have been around several transmission gurus of the “highest” type, and I have to say that the transmission I have felt around Adi
da and the places he empowered with his transmission and the books and so forth, for me, is of the most direct and touching the deepest part ot the being that is already living in nonduality. That is why he always called in a “revelation’ because it reveals your own true self or awakenend nature to itself. I have been involved with other teachers and other practices myself, and especially buddhism and tibetan buddhism, but I can still easily feel the transmission of
Adi Da and the deep feeling and revelation of my own deep happiness and freedom that it is if I open in that direction. I still study Buddha dharma and do my sitting practice every day and enjoy that too. but I also read adi Da off and on and always am directed to feel my own innate freedom in that and often when I sit to meditate , Adi da just sits down in my deepest awarenss and smiles as me. it is very immediate and tangible. i am not a cultist and not a community member of Adidam and have never been influenced or “brainwash’ except maybe to buy a Lexus.
I would not see any reason why this same sort of transmission could not be coming from Ramana Maharshi. In fact, I am sure that it does.
That lineage is just not my cup of tea. i think Poonja did somewhat of a disservice by giving his radiant transmission to many and then declaring all of them enlightened. so now you have lots of joe blows going around giving “satsangs” kind of silly and amusing at the same time. but i am digressing, just one of my pet peeves.
Anyone who was ever attracted to Adi Da was really attracted to what I am talking about here, not to Adi Da’s habits or life style or crazy and often not so skillful teaching methods. I mean he did a lot of experimenting and i could care less. Morgan was attracted to this . Every one has the intuition of freedom and happiness in this crazy event of life in the bleak natural realm of sickness old age and death. This intuition is before all the thinking and trying to figure it all out.
Enlightenment and freedom in the context of a human life certainly is paradoxical. It pretty much boggles the thinking mind for sure. I really do not care about any of the claims Adi Da ever made about himself either. I was offended by the only seventh stage realizer of all time, because I am a buddhist and I also feel a deep connection with some other gurus who i also feel to be “enlightened”. But as far as I am concerned, this does not detract from what I have said about his transmission. So I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the bath water since this is only counterproductive. Flick Rahke
January 7, 2009 at 11:25 pm
yo Charles, from your title, then yu must still be dancing; I still dance a lot in ethnic dance and also contact improv {Charles was more or less a pro dancer and one of my teachers of contact before he got “sucked” into spiritual life. ha ha.
Well I read the interview between John and Ram here about there being enlightened people all over the place and i guess it depends on your definition of enlightenment. Certainly in Asia , lots people are more plugged into at least the possibility of enlightenment, but I think most spirtuality is there is pretty conventional. I have been in asia and seen lots of people there. Most practice in Hinduism and buddhism sort of like Christians here. They worhip a god or goddess or buddha and pray for the goods of life. The monks and nuns in buddhism often go much farther with it and I have seen and met several very shiny and bright tibetan lamas and nuns , even here in California who are very loving and very free but who do not even remotely consider themselves to be “enlightened” And they are defintitely quite a bit more freed up than most people on this planet. I do not feel it is a widespread event by any means. Enlightened beings seem special because , even though it is our natural state, there is a block that is very effective to its true realization and that is called the “ego” Well folks , the ego really does have a strong effect. Concepts and talking are extensions of ego and will not bring about the undermining.
Thus I have a preference for the more “practicing” schools and less for the “talking” schools of spirituality. “Nonduality” has sort of become a catchphrase for some of the new age spiritual stuff, even though it comes from a valid tradition. Of course, Ramana Maharshi did not emphasize this himself . but really emphasized direct transmission of truth in Satsang with him. People love to jump all over his spoken teachings and use some of the “tricks” he gave, because we as westerners like that sort of thing. The real practice of “listening and contemplating” at the feet of a master was what Ramana taught , and that is an advanced practice. many novices in spiritual life have jumped on this and we see this plethora of “nonduality teachers” all over the place all over the world giving satsangs and spreading the conceit of enlightenment. I don’t know the sailor bob guy and did look at his website and i would certainly not even try to say if he is “enlightened” or “nondual” based on his pic. I would trust the guys on here who said they have benefited greatly from him and leave it at that since I do not know.
But I have been around several of the “nonduality” teachers around here. Like Andrew Cohen and Gangaji and Adyanshanti, who is from the zen traditon. i have known a lot of people in the Gangaji community and have sat face to face with Andrew Cohen, when he was using me to try to cut down Adi Da. personally I thought he made a fool of himself and certainly was full of ego. People around Gangaji were all referring to each other as enlightened people like it was just ordinary and no big deal. Ideally I think this is true, but not in real world. The problem is that the ego is a real element even though it is not “Real” To say that “I am That” and “Thou art That” and think that is the end of it is pretty silly as far as I can tell. In effect, I think there is really a difference between Realization and non realization and there is a lot of illusion and delusion goin round.
Anyhow that is about as “heady” as I can get about that and it taxes my brain more than anything. I guess what Charles pointed out about loving is much more important than trying to figure it out anyhow. just my opinion Flick
rahke
January 8, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Gosh with all the talking, it pretty much is simple. Before awakening, it is all “duality”, after awakening, it is all “nondual” or “One” or “not two”. In the meantime, there can be “glimpses” either by real practice or by “Grace” One can “practice” or not. There may be awakening or not, but I think there is a much better chance with “practice” And cetainly a useful and skillfull practice could be to listen to teachings of “nondual” teachers.
Of course , you could spend your time reading all the guru bashing and generally spiriituality bashing books like “The Guru Papers” which are basically founded in Western Materialism Cult , that is offended by “spirituality” and wishes just to debunk it and its practices. I personally have read this book and some others and find it pretty amusing but silly. It talks of things of which it knows nothing about. I mean the people who wrote the book of course, “talking heads” with no feeling. good scientists. Of course, nothing like a real scientist like Einstein, who knew that you are more than what you look like.
Personally, I am not “in” Adidam and I don’t really see any “in” or “out” or “superior” or “inferior” I know people “in” Adidam and they are nice and intelligent people and sincere about their practice and do not bash other teachers or teachings. And I know very many people “outside” Adidam and they are nice and intelligent and do their practice sincerely and do not bash other teachers. Of course, Adi Da himself raised a lot of hackles by his various descriptions of his own “enlightenment” and trying to compare it to some other teachers from his own lineage and from the traditions. He sure could be offensive.
I think we in the West and particularly men, just love to argue. There is some conflict and pain in it , but some distraction and fun too. Since this is pretty much an “anti da” blog, I am surprised that there are some da people who come here and carry on these long debates with people who detest Adi Da. And I am surprised that they are even allowed here, although that speaks well of the open mindedness of the moderators of this forum. Anyhow, I find the whole thing rather “interesting” and curious myself and I guess that is why I post here myself. Flick Rahke
January 9, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Yes I agree this is a more “neutral” site in general, because more than an “anti Da ” view is allowed and presented. Still most of the people who post here are definitley against Da big time and also pretty pissed at him. I personally have no reason to be pissed at him, although certainly I have myself questioned his behavior over the years myself. Still I personally find many things positive about his teachings and primarily his spiritual transmission and his actions do not derail this for me personally.
Certainly I have visited other forums that really are negative totally relative to Adi Da. One place even said he died of a viagra overdose and that Alan Watts had some sort of personal vendetta against him . To me that is like being in a Bevis and Butthead cartoon, where they say that “his boogers are greener than mine”
Anyhow I somewhat appreciate the conversations between Conrad and Feel for God . At least they get into the nuts and bolts of dharma in general.
I really am an “outsider” I have not been in the Adi Da community for many years and have been studying and practicing Buddhism with different teachers and practices andalso was initiated by Ammachi and have done many retreats with her. So you see I still value a guru and his or her transmission. I also value what the Buddha said in “Be a light unto yourself” By the way, Buddha was also a guru and so was Ramakrishna and so was Vivekenanda and so was Ramana Maharshi. I wonder what the Guru Papers would have to say about these gurus, especially Ramakrishna , who was very eccentric and a homosexual and Vivekenanda who had a bunch of females following him around. My point about those books is that they really are written by “western” psychologist types who see an inherent problem in following a guru to start with and think that people who do it are “pathological” many some are and maybe some are not. Everyone really is somewhat “pathological” and are real fools if they do not want more out of this life than “money , food , and sex” These books I am referring to do not even acknowledge that a spiritual process can exist. I simply to not agree with that stance at all.
I have never been a blind follower of Adi Da or any of the other teachers I have studied with and I am sure there are plenty of other people like me that way. It’s not like Adi Da created a “Jonestown” {funny pun ha ha} and everyone drank the coolaid. Now that was a true cult in the negative sense of a cult.
I think that people making a big deal of the ordinary way that Adi Da died is kind of silly too. The way a teacher dies does not shed light on his realization one way or the other. Ramana died a painful cancer death and was moaning in pain. Ramakrisna the same. Suzuki roshi the same. Vivekenanda died very young. So what. Adi Da’s heart stopped and he fell over. His body rotted and they buried him. The devotees hoped that he would either “come back Into ” his body or at least show sign of non decay like a very few teachers like Yogananda showed. I don’t blame them for wishing this. so what . So I would hope that some of the anti Da hysteria dissipates over time. People should chill out a bit and get on with their awakening practice. Flick Rahke why do not people use their real names on these forums. what is there to be afraid of?
January 10, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Yo Conrad and critic dude, I only meant by the Hitler comment that there is a sort of anti da hysteria on this and much more on the other forum that is reminding me of how people react to Hitler. I never said people said he was Hitler. I do think there are some major grudges being held of a more personal level that people had with Adi Da and I do not have that sort of personal grudge. Like i said , I was never an insider or a climber. But I did study Adi Da’s life and teachings very thoroughly for many years since I really was a formal “member” {this is pure semantics by the way, since if you live in any ahram, including Amma’s, then you are a “member’ } and I did feel that he was “enlightened” enough for me to benefit from as a guru. It is talked about in the traditions of “egolessness” and he did appear that way to me personally. whatever..
You did “get” me on the time line of his studies of Ramana . I did forget that and, you are right, I cannot claim any exhaustive knowledge on that one. I will leave it to you scholarly types, although I do dabble a bit myself. Mosty, I am not into debating, ,mostly just giving my own experience and view. But there is no way I could present that view on this particular forum without getting into some sort of debate. I think the only other person here who says anything positive about Adi Da is the Feelforgod dude and I have no idea who he is but he seems to like to get into it with you guys. He does toe the party line for sure and that is fine . I do not care really.
I am more of the “vital” and “peculiar” type as ole da used to say and i would rather be surfing on the ocean or dancing at a rave, but I have had this bizarre flu for over a month{Da probably gave it to me , although I contracted it at a large Amma retreat} and have been flopped on the couch with my ole Mac lap. so here I am, just a brainwashed fool , who does not know squat, but at least I am not bent out of my mind over Adi Da, I just feel like he had a real validity as a teacher and guru to at least some folks.
I do not believe he stole any of his teachings from anywhere in the tradition and I do know about the Basket of Tolerance and I have read the whole thing as it was published and I think that there is a lot of good stuff in it. Many teachings in the tradition are similar in their communication. I would not say that Ramana stole from Shankara or Buddha. Perhaps Saniel stole from Da though. And perhaps ole Deepak stole from Maharishi.
Yes one of the precendents I was talking about was Narayan as Conrad said. And Meher Baba to some degree also. Actually , I was just reading Amma again and she was talking about the guru function a lot herself. In Hindu India, the guru is very often worshiped as God and their word is taken as gospel truth by the disciple. Also the disciple serves the guru as God. I don’t think there are too many “Guru papers” floating around the ashrams in India. These books are writtten by people who do not even feel there is such a thing as real spirituality. They simply see what they consider to be a dysfunctional dynamic in the guru disciple relationship and they apply modern western psychology to their paradigm. People who have “fallen out ” and are dissaffected by their gurus find their answers in these sort of books.
Now I do think there are negative type cults. But no one has to stay in them. I found Adidam hard to enter and easy to leave. No one ever twisted my arm or called me from a phone booth and I said plenty, I mean plenty of cricitcal stuff out in the open. People used to say I was not a “real” devotee. I criticized the ridiculous aids policy right out front and many other things. I never personally went up against Da since I had no reason to do so since he never did anything to hurt me personally.
I know he would drink with followers at parties for months on end , but I don’t think he was an alcoholic since he could just drop it when he wanted to. That is how he really did that stuff. Alcoholics can’t quit. Same with pot, although it is non addictive. I know because I used to smoke it for a year straight and then just drop it with no problem.
i used to go to a wonderful and authentic Tibetan lama who had a very loyal following. There was a woman there who was very regular who asked the lama once to comment on “these terrible gurus who have sex with their female students” he got a smile on this face and said that it depended on the lama or guru and that it was often a great blessing when a lama would have sexual relations with a student. Now it turns out that this woman was the reporter who wrote articles against adi da in the 80′s in the Chronicle. She had been in the zen center and had some problems with Baker Roshi. She did not like this lama’s answer and stomped out of the temple never to return. This is what I mean by hysterical reaction. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Here is a little quote from
Amma “A person who has faith reposes all faith in the Guru, does not question or doubt the Guru, obeys the Guru unconditionally like a servant, never doubt that the Guru loves him or her,,” and it goes on and on in this vein. Of course Amma is a traditional Hindu guru. I hate to say it , but this is a real tradition.
Now the Buddha was a revolutionary, and the teacher in Buddhism is related to differently, the whole “spiritual friend” thing, although there is a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism of devotion to the teacher.
Adi Da took on the traditional Guru role as in Hinduism. That is more the format he came from ala Muktananda, not scientogy. The whole framework was Hindu spiritual, not scientology.
Here is another Amma delicacy.
She then asked him “What is Vedanta? Amma doesn’t know any Vedanta.People merely read books and preach Vedanta without practicing it.”
“Some people read books and they don’t practice anything. They merely mouth Vedantic statements. They say ‘I am not the body’, but their mouth waters if they see a delicious dish. They just read books, don’t do any sadhana, lose their tempers all the time, and don’t cultivate virtues, but they call themselves Vedantins.’
Amma continues “Even Ramana Maharshi, who is accepted as a real Vedantin talked about puja and japa in his work, Upaseda Saram Ramana says the seeker should start with puja , then go on to do japa and tapas. Only when the mind is in leenasthiti[and absorbed state] is he or she ready for Self Inquiry”
“In the olden days, the Guru used to make the disciples study the scriptures for 20 years. After 20 years of study, the Guru would select a few worthy disciples and teach them the Brahma Sutras. But nowadays , people just buy a copy of the Brahma Sutras and read them, without preparing themselves for it or doing any spiritual practice whatsoever.”
personally I think Ammachi knows what she is talking about.
personally I think I have a pretty unique perspective with which to see Adi Da. I was a devoted disciple for years and did see the good use of discipline for spiritual practice and also natural devotion. I also questioned things I did not understand or agree with. Also I have not just sat with a few other teachers here and there , which someone here snidely commented about. I have taken on the practices given by those teachers and traditions, including daily meditations and retreat times and disciplines such as yoga and tai chi and chi gung. I have studied these things and practiced them quite a lot and guess what, I still have a long way to go in practice. for example, my next big discipline is much more self less service or seva, which I resist since I am a selfish “western softie” who is still very much identified with the body and mind. This flu bug certainly reminded me of that for sure.
So I cannot expect to relate these kind of views here and not get criticized for it. I don’t mind really. I even posted my real name here. What do I have to hide? The only other “real” person I see here is ole Conrad who I knew when he was a snot nosed kid getting a job in Shandygaff on Polk street. Ah to be young again. Now that is a good reason to get “nondual” and the sooner the better with this aging body mind Flick Rahke
January 11, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Well You guys have at it if ole Feel for God sticks around to keep up his crusade. i think there are some wounded people around here . Surely that happens on the battlefield of life and also spiritual life. Cetainly I have studied some of the traditions a lot, but not a huge amount of Ramana Maharshi, only a small amount. That tradittion has never really attracted me much, because of its emphasis on technicallity and how it has been distorted by the sort of new age satsang thing with all the Poonja clones. Talk about claims for enlightenment . All the Joe and Jill blows giving Satsang these days and bestowing instant enlighenment put Adi Da’s claims to shame. Anyhow, that is just a little pet peev of mine and fogive me for being overcritical.
Still I have no excuse for not being versed in Ramana Maharshi, since I have posted on a blog that is about knowing about Ramana and pretty much picking apart Da based on this knowledge. It is the much more rational and much less hysterical version of the lightmind forum. Much more civilized and accepting of other opinions too.
I simply presented my experiences of Amma and my knowledge of her to put some of the guru lineage stuff in context. No one seems to have an answer to the quotes I put up here about what she said about Ramana and practice or what she said about Guru devotion. And she does do great work. Still she was hated by her own family and village for being “different” One friend of mine told me she sat on a pic of Adi Da and perhaps that is true, but I did not see it myself. Anyhow I am certainly not here as a devotee or rep of Adi Da. Still I personally have no problem that he drank booze or smoked cigs. and I certainly have no problem that he smoked pot or had sex with a lot of women. I have no problem that he was brilliantly versed in the spiritual traditions and his version was to make sense out of it all with the seven stages model. I don’t care that he claimed he was the best or the only or whatever. I don’t care that he bought the expensive art with donations from disciples. People knew what they were giving money for in all the money drives. Sure people had to get drunk to do it, but I just smoked pot myself.
I know someone who was in those “sexual” gatherings and he told me that they were not about sex at all, but about going beyond sex and attachment. I can only go on that stuff by what others have told me. so there are mixed signals. I don’t really care and I was never “conned” Maybe some of you were conned. I don’t know. I came and went a few times and have not been back for several years. If I was not doing well with things and not feeling happy, I just left. no big deal. I have always kept myself open to study with other teachers and do those practices, so I am not all blown out by whatever Adi da has been up to.
I never came for anything but his spiritual transmission anyhow. I guess that is altruistic, but that is the way it was for me. To me, I have not been able to see anyone here adequately describe what that was about or what it still is about. I am still aware of Da’s spiritual transmission and can easily feel it if I put my attention there. It is in the newer cumbersome teachings even. It is there in his decrepit old body before he died, although he certainly was harder to look at on a purely physical level in the last few years. Getting older does not always look so hot and all the yoga and raw food in the world works sometimes and sometimes does not. I could not care less about any mythology on either side of the Da coin, positive or negative.
So I will remain open to what brought me to Da in the first place, a silent and full comunication of Heart and Consciousness . I will remain open to this transmission wherever it comes from, from my guru in human form, Ammachi, from the transmission down from the “mythological” Buddha in the form of the meditation practices he gave and the transmissions coming down through my teachers in the
Tibetan lineage. Today I will enjoy the transmission of our beautiful sun and hope to get over the flu someday. I leave it to the pundits Flick Rahke
January 13, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Actually the long period of study under the guru was to test the dispciple not the guru. The disciple has already decided by then if they want to “surrender” to the “discipline” of the guru. Anyhow, I already said pretty much o.k. to what you guys have been saying here, but that “o.k.” was deleted by the moderator, so I guess this post will also be deleted. I am not sure why my post agreeing with everything was deleted. I guess the debate is what is important after all. Whatever, I agree with every point of view here Flick Rahke
January 15, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Personally I do not consider Adi Da’s spiritual transmission to be “yogic tricks” or simply “shakti energies” by any means like most here believe it to be. I have been around several teachers and gurus like that and it is very different. The transmission of Adi Da for ,me does go to the heart of intuition to awaken your own heart intution of “nonduality” , non separation and “Oneness”. And to me, it feels completely loving and benign and fully aware and conscious. And this is apart from however the man , “Franklin” lived his personal life and taught. And how much art and money he had or how much people gave him. Now I don’t feel like I or any else here could read the mind of Adi Da or ask him personally to his face why he did this or that.
Also much, if not most of the “evil” stuff {like sex and money and booze and pot} I have heard about him is all rumor and second hand knowledge. I do know that they had those “pazooza pujas” where people got drunk and bought stuff at auction of Adi Da’s for high prices, which is really a donation, so that he could buy more art “stuff”. I do know that he had sex with many women, a few of which feel bad about it afterwards. I do know that he drank with groups of people in “gatherings” for weeks on end and later used pot instead. I do know that people sometimes gave large donations of money{myself included}. Of course there are precedent examples in the tradition for this kind of stuff, like zen’s read thread in Japan who was quite a drinker and had lots of prostitute girlfriends, and Drupka Kunley of Tibet and I could go on.
Also , over time, Adi Da created a culture that was based on the old school devotional and worshipful relationship of disciple and guru from Hindu India. Being from my culture, I and many others have always had a hard time with that one. And then the capitalized teachings and the “seventh stage” stuff of “the first , last , and Only” I know all about all of that and some has bugged me off and on. Still I can relate totally to much of what Adi Da said about himself because I could feel in resound in my own awareness, such as how his transmission works. I have direct experience of this exactly how he described it. many times over and over. I don’t consider this “brainwashing” or shakti “yogic tricks” Personally I am not in his community now, because I prefer not to be in such a tight knit scene right now. I guess you could call it “the cult” , but I know tons of people in Adidam, and I have no problem with the vast majority of them. just regular people who feel good about Adi Da and want to have their practice with him. They do not seem to me to feel superior to me or people outside their community. This has not been my personal experience.
I think to judge a guru or teacher by how many of their disciples are “enlightened’ is pretty silly. Contrary to modern new age belief, “enligtenment” is not all that common. In the traditions, it talks about a “:lifetime of practice” and then there is no guarantee. The Buddha, one of the great realizer teacher in the history, supposedly spent huge amounts of lifetimes of practice before sitting down under the bodhi tree and waking up. People going to a guru often think they will just wake up permanently over night. Well you do get deep intuitions and glimpses of the natural state over and over again. that is one of the things transmission does. But these satoris have to be integrateda and the ego has to be gone beyond over and over again until awakening of the true Self beyond the ego or “self contraction” I personally do not feel like the bulk of people claiming “enlightenment” these days are really there. that is my opinion based on my experience.
And . yes, the disciple should have some discrimination and “investigate” the guru and not be some kind of fool blind follower. By the way, Ammachi gives her darshan and transmission to millions of people and every day and she has millions of practicing disciples at differnent levels of practice and I have not seen anyone there “enlightened” yet. perhaps some will be and perhaps not. Still this does not lower her status of a great saint guru and teacher at least in my eyes. So there is pleny of mythology of the “enlightened disciple” in the traditions and even in the present day if you check out Poonja and that circus of disciples. But I have not seen it for real. And I have checked it out myself.
I still cannot figure out why people on any of these forums use fake names and alias. of course Conrad and a few others are not who I am talking about, just the vast majority. I really am curious . It is this way on all forums not just this one. People are very shy and afraid in our culture I guess. I do not really expect to find a bomb in my mailbox from someone here who disagrees with me. And I am not shy to have my opinions and if one of you sees me on the street and yells “cultist” at me, big deal
Flick Rahke
January 15, 2009 at 3:08 pm
There is one thing that has been going through my mind of late. I know that devotees of Adi Da are suffering from grief now, and especially his daughters. Still I think in the scheme of things, that Adi Da’s passing is a positive thing for his teaching and blessing. He said that he had “finished his work” I feel that his transmission and blessing is still quite available , since death could not end that. But his eccentric personality life has ended,. People can focus now more direclty on his spiritual transmission. They no longer have to put attention on how Adi Da lived personally. Flick Rahke
January 16, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I think it is amusing that Conrad used Bill Stranger as an example of someone who at least at one time had some sensibility about him and is now more or less a fundamentalist kook{my words] I think personally that Bill is a very poor example. Although I always liked him personally , he was always totally stuck at the head level. There really is such a thing as being intelligent and discriminating and yet still being able to be in your heart and intuition. Being nonjudgemental is part of that and it is a real practice. Here I see an incredible amount of head and very little heart or practice{although that would be something hard to see on the internet anyhow} But that is my perception anyhow.
What I see basically is a lot of left over and current emotional reaction to Adi Da and the whole thing he created and a lot of heady justifications for that and using the sophisticated and lending itself very well to “talking heads” schools of Ramana Maharshi and his descendents. It’s amusing, because this is what Adi Da criticized as “the talking school” and not “practicing school” and it is quite out front and even flamboyant here. Perhaps feel for God is Bill Stranger. I can see why someone would think that. I know who I am and am not afraid to post it . It is hard for me to take seriously people I do not even know who they are anyhow. Just seems like a bunch of intellectual game playing to me.
I do not consider my subjective “experience” one stage or the other. At some point you have to step aside from your head about this and let your deepest intuition and feeling guide you. This is also recommended in the Buddhist traditon, which can also be quite intellectual and discriminating too. I have been reading the biography of Tenzin Palmo, a British woman who at a young age went Tibetan Buddhist when it was not at all chic and spent 12 years in a cave like Milarepal. Anyhow she has many deep insights and she really practiced and still does. I have met her and she is very bright to say the least.
She was the first private western student of Chogyam Trunpa in England and he taught her
buddhist meditation. He used to sit on the couch next to her and slide his hand up her dress to try to have sex with her. She found it amusing and charming and simply put him off since that was not her thing. She also said that he was very special and had much to offer her as a student and did not care about his sexual predilections. I agree with her personally.
I have never been a fundamentalist, in or out of Adidam. have you all ever heard a real “fundamentalist” talk? I hear Christian fundamentalists on the radio from time to time and they are a hell of a lot more dumbed down and seriously extreme than any Daist I have ever heard. Check it out sometime. I have known some more “fundamentalist” types in Adidam, but they are certainly not the majority. I am sorry that Conrad feels that he personally was one of that type. maybe he is still reacting to that in himself and that is why so much reaction. I am just speculating of course.
I myself see some of the down side of Adidam and there could be seen to be some cultism. But it is rather mild I think . Now anyone can come up with the “Guru Papers” and all the cult busting literature and trounce about anyone and anything. I have seen stacks of these books on people’s shelves. I have read some of them and find them rather silly. They have no connection at all to real spirituality or even real discrimination. They are just “in your head” and “in your face” quasi western psychology “gotcha” books. whatever
Flick Rahke
January 16, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Hey Feel For God This is the Real Flikananda here. I can see your point and also others probably want to keep their privacy too. not many of us use our real names on any of these forums anyhow. I think you are the only formal “devotee” who ever stayed in an ongoing debate like this one. I don’t know ffac or anyone else here except Conrad and I actually used to live in a household with Conrad when he was still very young and I was not so old myself. He is a good guy and very intelligent. hey sorry about talking about you in the third person, if you ever read this, conrad. Like I said , I have always had mixed feelings myself. I just feel that the spiritual transmission of Adi Da and his written and spoken teachings have a power that is found nowhere else and is available to anyone who wishes to make use of these things. The community and the practices and sanctuaries he gave are simple ways to amplify all of this and make it even more accessible and useable for awakening. I don’t think one who feels this way is at all “brainwashed’ or manipulated to feel this way. it is self evident.
I also feel that many of the traditions and their practices and different teachers can be very useful. Also they are more user friendly if you have a bug up your butt about Adi Da and his personal style. now that he has passed, it will be harder to hold a grudge against him for his style of teaching and living, although people can hold a grudge for a long time. Of course, holding a grudge like this is less than useless, it is damaging to the holder. It is known that anger is much more damaging to the angry party than anyone else.
Anyhow , this forum is much more sane and balanced than the Lightmind one. I was reading there and felt like I was in a Bevis and Butthead cartoon. People here speak generally with some intelligence and open mindedness. Flick Rahke
January 17, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Ah yes FFAC I can see that I am out of my league here in the debating of real spirituality and any sort of intlelligent discussion on “real spirituality” I will leave it to you big boys to figure it all out and figure out Adi Da and Ramana Marshi in particular Flick Rahke
January 17, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I don’t think how a person dies says anything about his spiritual realization. Unlesshe dies perhaps screaming in fear of death. Many great realizers, including Ramana died moaning in pain from something like cancer. Very “nondual” to think that qualifies their realization. Adi Da died suddenly with no pain. Perhaps he chose the moment and perhaps he did not. Makes no difference either way in regards to his realization. People qualify realization all the time from the limited body-mind perspective, not very “nondual”
I showed a pic of Adi Da once to a bunch of people working at a fasting and raw food ranch. They were horrified and said that there was no way he could be enlightened because he was fat and out of shape. same sort of limited reasoning.
I agree with FFAc that there is a place for mental discipline and discrimination and debate in spiritual life and practice. Why not? ADi DA himself always recommended it and also study of the traditions. I admit to have not studied Ramana very much and shoud not presume to debate anything about him. I will be inspired and read some DAvid Godman and Ramana. If nothing else, the musings here have inspired me to that.
Still it does come down to your subjective experience and heart intuition. So if someone feels this from Sailor Bob as opposed or instead of Adi Da , that is fine. I have not experienced SAilor Bob personally. I have been around a lot of the new age nondual poonja types like Gangaji and Andrew and some other jokesters like that and I think that puts a bad name on “nondualism” makes it really into the “talking school” rather than a real practicing school.
Also I talk about my experience of spiritual transmission. Perhaps my experience of it could be called fourth stage or fifth stage or whatever, but the transmission itself is pure and wholly conscious and blissful , full of love and humor. That is “Satchidananda” And I relate to it from my own deepest intuition. Apart from calming and clarifying the body and mind through a real practice of the yogas and beginning meditation and the deveioppment of insight, this opening of the heart by reception of transmission is “where ” it is at for me Flick Rahke
January 18, 2009 at 1:20 am
I think people who have once been in Adidam and are no longer are a bit out of touch with people who are still in Adidam, and that is fine, why should it be other wise? But I think to always put them down is a bit silly. I run into Da devotees in marin all the time, and they are just ordinary people who are committed to whatever degree to Adi Da and his teachings. I even know some of the old “insiders” and old “higher ups” and the same applys. They never take any sort of superior stance to me when i talk about my involvement with Buddhism or other teachers like Ammachi. I also know some into Ammachi that are stiill pissed at Adi Da and I know a couple of guys there who still feel very good about adi da and their history with him. It is all a very individual thing and there are no absolutes about it.
Adi Da was very charismatic and people into him really loved him and also were sometimes confused by him. I knew a few over the top fundamentalist types but they were in the minority. People did get transported into all sorts of free and higher “states” from associtation in all kinds of ways with Adi Da and this may have made them seem like “cultists” I don’t really know why people get a bug up their butts about people being enthusiastic. I have seem some people over the top hysterical emotional too and it irritated me at times, but who am I to judge someone’s spiritual process? Still,of course I do judge. That is part of the ego thing after all.
Who here does not judge? I see it here all the time.
Being in Adidam always was hard in many ways and always had an edge to it. I called it the “Ecstacy and the Agony” I would fall spontaneously into very deep states of ecstasy and transcendence and just free love in the darshan things and also often in meditation and contemplation in meditation halls. Of course, this is not something you can willfully maintain. These are satoris of a sort. You get deep glimpses of “Reality” as a gift so to speak. Adi DA was really good at that. That is a big deal in my book. The only other teacher I have personally seen who could come close to this is Ammachi and she has somewhat of a different character and flavor. She grew up in a village in India and is a woman. She grants darshan by hugging people. I have thought at this times that this is sort of superior to Adi Da, but really it is just different way of working with people and the world. These gurus have different functions.
There is such a thing as purification too. The transmission really does wake up your dark stuff and brings it out. That can make it rough and I call it the “agony” I have gone through a lot of that and life itself often brings this about in an unconsious way. How many really think this life is just peachy the way it is without transcendence? I like to have fun and feel good , but life itself is a reeking pile of suffering with death at the end of it. I love life anyhow but it does suck big time.
Adi damers are not saints of course but they have been given a lot from Adi Da and they are often praising this stuff. I just can’t get down on them for that myself. He was also not an easy teacher in many ways. He was hard if not impossible to fathom and people certainly got worked emotionally. I think Eckart called this way of working “the way of the cross” or cruxifiction. It did seem that way a lot. It is hard for people to stay with that. I was not able to myself. I value Adi Da’s transmission and it still has an influence on me. I also value the practices and teach