Author: TonyGosling
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:54 pm (GMT 0)
I've included all the fascinating comments up to Jan 28th January this year - - before the avalanche of spam
Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’
By David Axe July 14, 2014
Tags: AIR FORCE | F-35 JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER | F135 ENGINE | LOCKHEED MARTIN | NAVY | PENTAGON | PRATT & WHITNEY
A F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter is seen at the Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/07/14/pentagons-big-budget-f-35-fighter-cant-turn-cant-climb-cant-run/
Americans should be worried.
The U.S. military has grounded all its new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters following an incident on June 23, when one of the high-tech warplanes caught fire on the runway of a Florida air base. The no-fly order — which affects at least 50 F-35s at training and test bases in Florida, Arizona, California and Maryland — began on the evening of July 3 and continued through July 11.
All those F-35s sitting idle could be a preview of a future in which potentially thousands of the Pentagon’s warplanes can’t reliably fly.
Handout photo of three F-35 Joint Strike Fighters flying over Edwards Air Force BaseTo be fair, the Pentagon routinely grounds warplanes on a temporary basis following accidents and malfunctions to buy investigators time to identify problems and to give engineers time to fix them.
But there’s real reason to worry. The June incident might reflect serious design flaws that could render the F-35 unsuitable for combat.
For starters, the Lockheed Martin-built F-35 — which can avoid sensor detection thanks to its special shape and coating — simply doesn’t work very well. The Pentagon has had to temporarily ground F-35s no fewer than 13 times since 2007, mostly due to problems with the plane’s Pratt & Whitney-made F135 engine, in particular, with the engines’ turbine blades. The stand-downs lasted at most a few weeks.
“The repeated problems with the same part of the engine may be indications of a serious design and structural problem with the F135 engine,” said Johan Boeder, a Dutch aerospace expert and editor of the online publication JSF News.
Pratt & Whitney has already totally redesigned the F135 in an attempt to end its history of frequent failures. But there’s only so much engineers can do. In a controversial move during the early stages of the F-35’s development, the Pentagon decided to fit the plane with one engine instead of two. Sticking with one motor can help keep down the price of a new plane. But in the F-35’s case, the decision proved self-defeating.
Handout photo of workers on the moving line and forward fuselage assembly areas for the F-35 JSF at Lockheed Martin Corp's factory located in Fort Worth, TexasThat’s because the F-35 is complex — the result of the Air Force, Marines and Navy all adding features to the basic design. In airplane design, such complexity equals weight. The F-35 is extraordinarily heavy for a single-engine plane, weighing as much as 35 tons with a full load of fuel.
By comparison, the older F-15 fighter weighs 40 tons. But it has two engines. To remain reasonably fast and maneuverable, the F-35’s sole F135 engine must generate no less than 20 tons of thrust — making it history’s most powerful fighter motor.
All that thrust results in extreme levels of stress on engine components. It’s no surprise, then, that the F-35 frequently suffers engine malfunctions. Even with that 20 tons of thrust, the new radar-dodging plane is still sluggish. The F-35 “is a dog … overweight and underpowered,” according to Winslow Wheeler, director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Project on Government Oversight in Washington.
In 2008, two analysts at the RAND Corporation, a California think-tank that works closely with the military, programmed a computer simulation to test out the F-35’s fighting ability in a hypothetical air war with China. The results were startling.
“The F-35 is double-inferior,” John Stillion and Harold Scott Perdue concluded in their written summary of the war game, later leaked to the press. The new plane “can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run,” they warned.
Handout photo of workers on the moving line and forward fuselage assembly areas for the F-35 JSF at Lockheed Martin Corp's factory located in Fort Worth, TexasYet the F-35 is on track to become by far the military’s most numerous warplane. It was designed to replace almost all current fighters in the Air Force and Marine Corps and complement the Navy’s existing F/A-18 jets. The Pentagon plans to acquire roughly 2,400 of the radar-evading F-35s in coming decades, at a cost of more than $400 billion.
Like it or not, the stealthy F-35 is the future of U.S. air power. There are few alternatives. Lockheed Martin’s engineers have done millions of man-hours of work on the design since development began in the 1990s. Starting work on a new plane now would force the Defense Department to wait a decade or more, during which other countries might pull ahead in jet design. Russia, China and Japan are all working on new stealth fighter models.
The Pentagon sounds guardedly optimistic about the current F-35 grounding. “Additional inspections of F-35 engines have been ordered,” Rear Admiral John Kirby, a military spokeman said, “and return to flight will be determined based on inspection results and analysis of engineering data.”
Minor fixes might get America’s future warplane flying again soon — for a while. But fundamental design flaws could vex the F-35 for decades to come, forcing the Pentagon to suspend flying far too often for the majority of its fighter fleet, potentially jeopardizing U.S. national security.
PHOTO (TOP): F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter is seen at the Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River, Maryland, January 20, 2012. REUTERS/Yuri Gripas
PHOTO (INSERT 1): Three F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (rear to front) AF-2, AF-3 and AF-4, can be seen flying over Edwards Air Force Base, December 10, 2011. REUTERS/Lockheed Martin/Darin Russell/Handout
PHOTO (INSERT 2): Workers can be seen on the moving line and forward fuselage assembly areas for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at Lockheed Martin Corp’s factory located in Fort Worth, Texas, October 13, 2011. REUTERS/Lockheed Martin/Randy A. Crites/Handout
PHOTO (INSERT 3): Workers can be seen on the moving line and forward fuselage assembly areas for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at Lockheed Martin Corp’s factory located in Fort Worth, Texas, October 13, 2011. REUTERS/Lockheed Martin/Randy A. Crites/Handout
169 COMMENTS
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Jul 14, 2014
2:26 pm UTC
My god, the US government is totally incompetent now. Corporate America has reduced it to jabbering politicians and lobbyist that are all there only to make money. Thank god China has no world conquest thoughts like the Soviets did.
Posted by tmc | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
3:33 pm UTC
The article is pretty much correct in what they say, but there are three very important omissions:
1) Lockheed has the talent to develop a great warplane, but not two good warplanes. Lockheed tried to both the missionless F-22 and the mission overloaded F-35. First team talent was split between the two with the F-22 getting more than its share as Lockheed emphasized saving the F-22 contract when the F-35 was in its most critical design phases.
2) ‘The new plane “can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run,”…’
That is not all that relevant anymore. Old fashioned dogfights are for the 20th century and the movies. What matters now are sensors, missiles, communications, and intelligence. The winner has launched his missile before the loser has detected the winner.
3) If you want to turn, climb, and run, then you want an unmanned combat aircraft. The F-22 may end up as being about as effective as the Polish horse cavalry was against German armor in WWII.
Posted by QuietThinker | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
4:30 pm UTC
@QuietThinker,
Actually, dogfights are not obsolete by any means.
It’s true that the F-35, being stealthy, will be able to detect and shoot at enemy fighters first. (provided that the enemy fighters are non-stealth)
But long range missiles are not as accurate as you think.
In the history of air warfare, the vast majority of missile kills were made from close-range (within visual-range).
Since air-to-air missiles carry only a limited amount of fuel, they are not very effective against faraway targets. Especially if the targets are modern fighters with modern avionics and electronic countermeasures which can detect missile launches and take evasive measures against the missiles.
By some estimates, the hit rate of long-range radar guided air-to-air missiles against such modern adversaries will be under 10%.
Also, if the enemy aircraft happen to be stealth fighters themselves, they will not show up on the F-35’s radar.
Even if the F-35 manages to launch missiles at them, the missiles’ hit probability will be even lower.
So, there’s a big possibility that the F-35 will fail to shoot down its adversaries from long range.
It will then have no choice but to engage them in dogfights. But the F-35 will be at a big disadvantage here, because it is so slow and unmaneuverable.
But the (in-)effectiveness of BVR long-range missiles isn’t the only thing you must consider.
In fact, in order to launch any missiles from beyond visual range, the rules of engagement must first allow you to do so.
If the rules of engagement require you to make visual contact and confirm the enemy’s identity, then you have no choice but to get close to them. What will the F-35 do in such a scenario?
The F-35 may have advanced sensors and space-age avionics, but these systems are incredibly complex and nowhere near combat capability. And even if they work perfectly as advertised, there will be times when they can’t positively ID targets and have to get close to get visual confirmation.
However, the F-35 just can’t afford to get close to enemy fighters. If it gets into a dogfight, it will be dead.
The fact is that the F-35 is completely unsuited for air combat.
It’s only good as a stealth bomber.
(But even this capability is in question, as newer Russian and Chinese radars will be able to detect the F-35..)
Posted by Joe765 | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
4:51 pm UTC
This is the problem when you design a warplane to do everything: It ends up not being able to do anything well. The F-35 was supposed to replace the F-16, a light multi-role fighter that was designed with maneuverability and cheapness of operation in mind. But the F-35 sought systems and mission parameters rather than performance as a target.
It’s what Eisenhower warned us of: Beware the Military-Industrial Complex. As the article states: “Like it or not, the stealthy F-35 is the future of U.S. air power.” Which is exactly what the defense contractors want. If this were the 1950s, it would have been cancelled and scrapped in favor of something better. But now the taxpayers are on the hook for an airplane that the military can’t cancel, because the contractors and their political donations have allowed the politicians to pull the wool over the eyes of the voters. If the F-35 were cancelled, we’d hear calls of politicians “making American weaker.” And, oh yeah, “Jobs!” But instead, we’re stuck with a dog of an airplane that will never meet the original design requirements or be as good or as inexpensive as it was once sold to us.
The F-35 is literally a flying bridge to nowhere.
Posted by Aerothusiast | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
6:45 pm UTC
I can’t help but remember the “day of the dog fight is over” theory that gave the United States the F-4 Phantom II with only missiles and no gun. After getting wacked pretty badly by the Migs in Vietnam, we added a gun to that overweight multimission aircraft. The result was the requirement for the F-15 and F-16.
Posted by AZWarrior | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
6:51 pm UTC
That makes pretty good sense there @dd606. I didn’t think about the antiquity of dog fights and the advancement of drones. But I still think government is incompetent. Just maybe not the high ranking military.
Posted by tmc | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
7:47 pm UTC
I’m sure this aircraft is a hangar queen. However, the Military Industrial Complex and their Lobbyists are doing just fine…along with their Inside the Beltway buddies.
Posted by rikfre | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
10:52 pm UTC
What a crock.
When is the last time an American fighter aircraft has really mattered to our, “national security”? National Ego, yes, security, nah.
Posted by Bookfan | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
1:23 am UTC
This is just one more reason for the development of drone fighters. The limit of the plane often surpasses the human factor. Think of the weight savings, the space, and reduction of complexity if now human had to be carried.
Posted by bucklj | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
2:09 am UTC
I hope our Prime Minister reads this. We need an aircraft for the Canadian Air Force that works.
Posted by canadianeh65 | Report as abusive
Jul 14, 2014
2:50 am UTC
UTC: You are very unhealthy in mind.
Posted by comitas7 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
6:07 am UTC
Oh brilliant! The UK has been saddled with a heap of junk…that’s as fast as the flames consuming the engines, flies like a brick, outmaneuvers like a t**d…….may as well keep the Sopwith Camels..at least they flew!
Posted by umkomazi | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
7:36 am UTC
This program died from the specification. to want good at everything. Without the suicidal decision to make a single-engined aircraft Go buy Rafale…
Posted by TOTOCACA | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
8:58 am UTC
Put the cost of this plane in perspective: Give me the 1.5 Trillion dollars this plane will cost and I will give every US high school graduate a four year college education. All high school graduates,FOREVER.
Posted by Bernie777 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
9:55 am UTC
@Bernie777 I don’t think having a well educated population benefits the current crop of aristocracy.
Posted by RandomName2nd | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
12:59 pm UTC
Just reading comments here makes me realize just how self-absorbed, ignorant and out of touch with reality Americans are.
Posted by Dumbstruck | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
1:16 pm UTC
The F-35 may be a failed program but the kinetic data puts its maneuverability (with a combat load) on par with the Typhoon and better than an F-16.
It’s not a good investment of taxpayer dollars or a very reliable fighter plane but the title of the article is misleading.
Posted by GreatLakes80 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
2:09 pm UTC
Time and time again people over-design, trying to please every would be customer. I bought a tape measure the other day for $24 with the aim of buying one that wouldn’t immediately fall apart, and the thing has every bell and whistle, but fails at the most basic tasks. Any serious design effort should start with a review of wildly successful designs (regardless of industry):
The original Bialetti Moka from 1933 – simplicity and taste!
The Toyota Hilux “Pickup” with the 22r and later 22re engine – simply indestructible.
The Boeing 747 freighter – the industry standard for decades.
1990 Honda CRX – fast, fun, reliable, and great gas mileage.
Spring loaded camming devices used in rock climbing – the original was called a, “friend,” later versions are “camalots” or aliens”
…
Posted by CanyonLiveOak | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
4:20 pm UTC
Give that $400 Billion to the UN and join our species in harmonizing with this planet.
Posted by DwightJones | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
4:22 pm UTC
Why is the US eating these costs. During contract negotiations, requirements should be presented to would be companies. They look at the needs and determine how much they can develop the project for. Allow maybe 5% variance and anything over that the winning bidder should eat as a part of fulfilling the contract. I bet the plane would be much better and development completed much sooner.
Posted by gcf1965 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
5:25 pm UTC
end this boondoggle. drones have already made manned aircraft or they will within a few years. boots on the ground want to save the A1, all the defense contractors want costly hardware.
Posted by googlemcgoogle | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
5:44 pm UTC
The B29 Super fortress had a engine flaw due to a invented ideology to achieve a pound per horsepower. The magnesium block was susceptible to lean fuel mixture fires necessitated by WW2 payload and range missions. Some full bird achieved his tonnage record at the cost of several flight crews.
Posted by morbas | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
5:44 pm UTC
The admittedly few others trying to break the monopoly to be main supplier of US fighter / bomber submitted cheaper designs but admitted you couldn’t design a “truly universal” plane – saying they’d be alot more variation between the planes for the three military arms. When the worlds biggest titantium casting requiring WEEKS of milling each was needed to protect the crew from the engine in the F35, DOD should have gone running away.
Instead, politicians took the usual bribes from their usual defense contractor and everyone’s done well, except the citizens of the US.
Luckily, we still have the plans for the F15 so if a shooting war starts we can start building them again, cause a plane that can’t run away, and this overweight under powered turkey sure can’t, won’t last long.
There should have been 2 design goals for this plane, stealth and a pound of thrust per pound of plane. You can’t see me, you can’t catch me, is the way to fight. Hit and run and let the smart munitions hang around to do the dirty work. You only do a one on one dog fight when everything else has failed.
Posted by DellStator | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
7:35 pm UTC
A political disaster that is only going to get worse. Stop the bleeding. This plane will never accomplish the goals being set. It is only alive because almost every member of congress (Senate and House) have a portion of the plane being built in their districts. It is not capable of what is was asked to do and all the great engineers in the world cannot fix this broken plane. Start on a new plane NOW or the Russians and Chinese will “fly” by us in the next 10 years.
WAKE UP America – this is a political boondoggle of the highest order.
Posted by AZ1811 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
8:33 pm UTC
Although the Boeing entry did not “look-as-cool” as what we got I bet the Boeing jet would have done a better job at at a better price point.
Posted by perilun | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
9:05 pm UTC
What we should consider is hanging some missiles on our AWACS and extended range C-130s. They’d eat the F-35s alive.
Posted by RobertMorrisIV | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
11:56 pm UTC
One day J-35 comes to be able to turn, climb and will run into Chinese and Russian radar screens.
Posted by Hurtle40 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
1:23 am UTC
Be aware of poster dd606…. He’s a paid government shill.
This guy doesn’t think that our government should have any oversight. Sort of like Jo Stalin… He didn’t allow any oversight either.
‘Aircraft don’t “dog fight” anymore’… who is this bird kidding. What do you suppose in going on in the skies around the East China Sea, where both Japan and China claim some stupid little islands? Is that just an airshow?
Joe765 is correct: ‘If the rules of engagement require you to make visual contact and confirm the enemy’s identity, then you have no choice but to get close to them.’
The example of the F4 Phantom is perfect, along with the F-111. These pig’s were a disaster, and that’s why we pushed into the F-14, 15, and 16 development.
There is nothing wrong with making a mistake… as long as you admit your mistake and move on. Which is what we should do with the F-35 program.
Posted by edgyinchina | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
2:09 am UTC
The F-35 program was a failure from the start. You cannot design a craft that does EVERYTHING and every mission to excellence, which is what they tried to do to save money. That should have been the warning right there. Instead, they pushed ahead anyway and ended up with a mediocre thing that has a much higher chance of failure in the end. This is what happens when everything is a team decision and accomplishment.
The result of too many fingers in the recipe, as usual. The result was predictable.
Posted by FlushTheToilet1 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
3:23 am UTC
Australia needs to back out of buying these lemons. We’d save ourselves 24 billion dollars or something of that magnitude.
Posted by Overlander14 | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
4:03 am UTC
It does not matter … GW pushed the F35 deal for his home state of Texas, and there is no way that Texas will give up this trillion dollar plus gravy train.
Posted by SanPa | Report as abusive
Jul 15, 2014
4:49 am UTC
Tomorrow’s dogfights will feature unmanned missiles that can maneuver with much more agility than a manned aircraft. They are much cheaper to make and faster and more deadly in air to air combat.
Could be that the F35 and even the sexy Chinese fighter planes will all soon be obsolete.
Posted by loyalsys | Report as abusive
Jul 16, 2014
5:51 am UTC
Just like the f-86 and the MIG, if i can get you into the best of my flight envelope bang you are dead. Low alt, Hi-alt, fast, slow. if I can get you where I am best I don’t need to turn, climb, or run with all agility. The F-86 and F-16 gave you a gun battle edge in their best flight envelopes, the F-14 and F-15 will take you out in a missile battle with the F-15 being the best in the high speed, maneuver and the F-14 in the long range attack multiple targets roll The F-18 is a pretty good fighter in a given flight envelope but can do the low alt combat support roll along with the A-10 but from a carrier. The basic problem with a tri service design is the difference in where the engine and fuel cells are located. The Air Force wants the engine at the bottom of the fuselage with the fuel cells wrapped around and over the engine. the Navy has to have both at the top of the fuselage to make room for carrier sized landing gear (note the bulge in the Navy F-18 versus the Air Force version). McNamara had to eat crow and the F-14 was born because of that Air Frame and weight problem. A multi-service aircraft will always have a flight and weight variance thus a difference in the flight envelops at different altitudes and air speeds. Don’t worry the F-35 will meet its mission requirement and beat the adversary in his own flight envelop. Remember the MIG-15 and 17 could both take on the F-86 in a low, slow shoot out. Take either high and the F-86 was boss man. Missiles are great but you had better have some way of getting them on target and keep them on target or one is liable to down more than the foe. Study the F-14 and its flight envelope coupled with a
long-range missile capability to target and kill the other guy.
Posted by harry7738 | Report as abusive
Jul 16, 2014
7:18 pm UTC
But the money spent on this COULD have sent 10 million kids all the way through college, if you assume $40K in tuition.
Posted by Overcast451 | Report as abusive
Jul 16, 2014
8:46 pm UTC
I’m laughing so hard, there are tears in my eyes. The F-35 is the BIGGEST feint in the history of warfare. It was never meant to fly well. Our adversaries will spend a combined eight trillion dollars trying to play “catch up.” Our future is secure with the F-65, i.e. the Black Triangle. Hyper maneuverable, MACH 24+, and its radar can count the eyelashes of the enemy pilot while he’s back at base drinking coffee.
Posted by bbuster | Report as abusive
Jul 16, 2014
4:20 am UTC
For all the money they’ve spent, and have yet to spend, they could have an entire air force of F-22’s, and even come up with a Naval variant.But I guess Congress wouldn’t allow that. National Security takes a backseat to pork in their Districts.
Posted by SemperFido9915 | Report as abusive
Jul 17, 2014
12:47 pm UTC
Bow much will the CEO’s bonus be?
Posted by my2sons | Report as abusive
Jul 17, 2014
1:00 pm UTC
We are currently fighting two wars where the enemy has NO air power. How can you “win” a war using a $200 million plane and a pilot with a masters degree to terminate an illiterate Taliban with a rusty AK-47?
Cost management has been practiced in the REAL economy for 30 years. Time for the military industrial complex to do the same. More troops, fewer toys.
Posted by alowl | Report as abusive
Jul 17, 2014
5:51 pm UTC
The ultra left wing radical socialist writer is just ‘piling on’ – the F-35 is really replacing three series of warplanes, with a “learning curve” in doing so.
The F-35 has more problems than just one fighter jet.
F-35A – conventional takeoffs
f-35B – vertical or limited space takeoff
F-35C- carrier takeoffs.
My solution – rename them and hope no one notices.
Posted by cirrus7 | Report as abusive
Jul 17, 2014
10:57 pm UTC
The reason we develop F-35 is to help pilots dodge missiles better through stealth . It already does you no good with having ability to turn , climb, or outrun our enemies.. Pilots will simply fly straight and slowly while firing missiles then return home safely. This is for now. Maybe we will build better steatlh planes later on. I dont know ?
Posted by Gumby | Report as abusive
Jul 19, 2014
6:55 am UTC
All this criticism against the F35 is simply noise to foo our enemies. Yhe final product will be an awesome plane fielding an integrated battlespace due to sensor arrays of F35s. The concept is brilliant.
Posted by WJL | Report as abusive
Jul 19, 2014
3:20 pm UTC
In WW2, our military had many aircraft that could not turn, could not climb, and could not run.
They were called Blimps.
Posted by ckd1358 | Report as abusive
Jul 19, 2014
4:02 pm UTC
@SanPa…you wrote: “It does not matter … GW pushed the F35 deal for his home state of Texas, and there is no way that Texas will give up this trillion dollar plus gravy train.”
The deal for the JSF was signed in 1996; thank you Bill Clinton. GW had a lot of flaws but people who thoughtlessly blame him for everything have even more.
Posted by OldColdWarrior | Report as abusive
Jul 20, 2014
3:46 pm UTC
Plane to plane we’re there any fighters from potential enemies that could outmatch the F-18?
F-22?
Posted by airborneqmc | Report as abusive
Jul 20, 2014
6:20 pm UTC
The plane does look stealthy at all and single engine is not a away to go
Posted by juodskis1 | Report as abusive
Jul 20, 2014
7:29 pm UTC
in this age of specialization we have top brass and their contractor buddies insisting on multirole fighter/bombers?
the F18 for example may have made sense for USnavy carriers,but other countries like canada would have been better served with fleets of cheaper simpler purpose built light fighter/interceptors like the F20 tigershark, which was a third the price,less than half as costly to support and 4 times more reliable than the f18(and according to chuck yeager was probably the deadliest air to air interceptor designed).
the us may need a stealth super plane to fight a superpower in the future,
but other nato partners haven’t the political capital to bomb from so high up or fire missiles so far away that the intended target cannot be visually confirmed by the pilot! we also rarely or never flown u.n. or nato missions where we needed stealth planes- so the F35 really has far less use to us than something that can do simple sovereignty patrols or force down some tin pot’s old soviet helicopters-and at a fraction of the cost.heck all our crafts ever each needed was an automatic cannon,two sidewinders and a guided bomb! in an extreme situation perhaps a small antiship missile or an antiradiation(anti anti aircraft weapon)missile during kosovo or the gulf war.
this F35 fiasco may bring an end to this unholy alliance between industrial and military executives.
Posted by bademoxy | Report as abusive
Jul 28, 2014
2:35 pm UTC
REPLY to QuietThinker’s post on July 14, 2014
3:33 pm UTC:
Fighter planes are NOT obsolete, if they have good sensor capabilities AND are flown by EXPERIENCED combat pilots.
1.) Early in the Vietnam War the U.S. military was convinced that only air-to-air missiles were all that were needed for its fighters, so all 50 cal. machine guns and 20 mm or 30 mm cannons were REMOVED. This proved disastrous for U.S. pilots, as their missiles frequency missed their opponents’ fighters.
Within a few months most U.S. fighters were re-equipped with the 50 cal. machine guns and cannons – and their “kill rates” skyrocketed. A former work colleague was a combat fighter pilot in Vietnam during those early years and said that most of the “kills” he had and/or was told about were due to 50 cal or cannon fire – NOT air-to-air missiles. Of course, today’s missiles have greatly improved reliability and accuracy, but the 50 cal machine guns and cannons remain important weapons – which is why the military still insists on them in all its combat aircraft, including the F-35.
2.) A fighter plane is still NOT easy to shoot down – even with the most advanced missile system. If sensor systems and the pilot react quickly, an incoming missile can be avoided, often by diving toward the missile and radical maneuvering.
3.) My opinion is that surface ships (especially aircraft carriers) are the most OBSOLETE weapons systems today – UNLESS they are based an ENORMOUS DISTANCE from any enemy fighters and/or land-based missiles. Sure, they carry fighter planes into areas the fighters could otherwise not go. But carriers are a huge and very slow target, which means they are rather easy “kills” for sophisticated land-based or air-to-air missiles, especially low-flying cruise missiles. (If I were in the Navy, I would prefer duty on a DESTROYER – a smaller and less valuable target!)
Posted by Jack4952 | Report as abusive
Oct 15, 2014
11:37 am UTC
The battleship of the skies. Drones and other cheaper, more flexible options will quickly make this fighter a loser. Too bad we had to waste $400 billion.
Posted by hedge123 | Report as abusive
Dec 4, 2014
6:21 am UTC
Your tax dollars at work!
Posted by Wilx | Report as abusive
Dec 4, 2014
11:54 am UTC
I’ve always wondered why the US strategy would not be to update existing/proven aircraft (F15,16,1
and simply gain superiority via numbers. Stated simply, I would bet that 100 F16’s could overwhelm 50 of the best fighters in the world.
Posted by EtienneB | Report as abusive
Dec 4, 2014
12:18 pm UTC
On its first combat mission, the F-35 managed to destroy an ISIS bunker. It could easily have been done with an F-16, and even comfortably with an A-10. The U.S. will take itself out of action due to economic instability and hand the world over to the Chinese.
Posted by Jim1648 | Report as abusive
Dec 4, 2014
7:46 pm UTC
Is the term ‘Muscle fighter’ appropriate? no wait, some muscle cars can still run after 40 years… so no… mmm
Posted by Denaldo | Report as abusive
Dec 4, 2014
10:14 pm UTC
As Canadians we sometimes follow blindly along. Especially under our current right wing gov’t which is run by a cloaked fascist Stephen Harper. This episode is from Fifth Estate, an investigative TV show on the Canadian national broadcaster CBC.
www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2012-2013/runa way-fighter
Posted by shockeymoe | Report as abusive
Dec 4, 2014
4:03 am UTC
One should remember that the F-35 is a Clinton/Aspin special! Part of Bill’s efforts to prepare us for the Chinese… Did we learn nothing from McNamara’s F-111?
Posted by Robert1953 | Report as abusive
Dec 5, 2014
9:34 am UTC
It’s a classic “Jack of all trades, master of none”. I do hope the F-35 technology will be used to create a more specialized and effective aircraft.
Posted by Chris.Peters | Report as abusive
Dec 5, 2014
2:34 pm UTC
“Old fashioned dogfights are for the 20th century and the movies.”
They sound like those geniuses that designed the F4 Phantom……….
No need for guns, the days of dogfighting is over…..idiots.
They then had to quickly design a add on gun pod. As the F4’s were being
mauled by Migs with guns.
As long as there are two or more planes flying in a combat situation, there will Always be a need for guns…
When aggressors learn you are gunless, they will always “get in close”
so you can not get a missile off….then maul you to death.
We have lost our way in the world. We are condemned to be a third world country.
Posted by JohnStarkMD | Report as abusive
Dec 5, 2014
2:58 pm UTC
The F35 is not a fighter, and will not be engaged in too many dogfights. Information is the new currency of the future. Sending out lower generation fighters a little ahead of the F35 gives all aircraft involved a huge advantage with the amount of data the F35 can collect and distribute. The F35 is a force multiplier through stealth, data collection, and data dissemination. It is not a sequel to Top Gun. Laser powered weapons will be able to take out just about any airplane in the coming decade or two once they take to the skies. Dogfighting is obsolete in a traditional sense, with engagement distances increasing dramatically in the coming decades. I see the F35 as a research platform for developing technologies. Sometimes you have to get things wrong before you get them right, and the shifting landscape of today’s world makes large outlays of cash on projects like this riskier but still necessary.
Posted by fuzz54 | Report as abusive
Dec 5, 2014
9:01 pm UTC
The F35 is typical of American defence projects since the 1960’s – vastly expensive, enormously complex, massively over-budget, riven by political considerations and inter-service politics: and very often cancelled. With continued “successes” like F-35, the USA will bankrupt itself and have no operational air force left. No so long ago it was calculated that with the growth in cost of US aircraft, it would not be long before the entire US defence budget could only pay for one aircraft.
Posted by royalcourtier | Report as abusive
Dec 5, 2014
12:15 am UTC
We are #2, soon to be #3 economically. We are throwing away our military advantage. We are reducing our deployed nuclear arsenal.
We are supporting our enemies and screwing our friends. The majority in DC is corrupt, incompetent or stupid.
Our population revels in ignorance. Our debt is beyond staggering. We can’t build a decent fighter plane. I see geniuses talking about fighter drones… Yea that is great until someone jams them. It is one thing fly an unmanned slow moving drone around a 3rd world country. It is completely different to take an unmanned vehicle into combat against another world power that can take out satellites which control the drones.
So America with world class debit, brain damaged population, self destructing military all managed by egotistical self centered country hating politicians.
I need a drink.
Posted by raving_lunatic | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
5:34 pm UTC
Consider the source… that quote comes from a group in whose interest it is to portray every government program as a complete failure. This isn’t WWII and these planes aren’t going to be doing any dogfighting. F35 is designed to kill planes from hundreds of kilometers away, long before it is even detected.
Posted by No_Conspiracy | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
6:43 pm UTC
Its okay that the U.S. gets a ‘dog’ of a warplane…because, wherever the U.S. goes, war tends to follow, and people die, so American can be number 1. So, seeing the last ‘superpower’ arrogantly wade into any battle it deems in its ‘national interests’ will at least be a contest, where the opponent can fight back.
Single engine, poor turning ability (due to stubby wings) and additional weight carried for fuel – via high drag factor, make for a lousy dog-fighter.
Much like the vaunted F-14 Tomcat, the plane featured in Top Gun, the movie, the F-35 will be a turkey…Gobble Gobble!
Posted by Disqualifyer | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
9:58 pm UTC
Either fix it or abandon it. Not one more dollar should be spent on the F-35 if a decision is made that it simply will not enhance our defensive response. If we build this out of the desire to protect a prior investment, we may lose our ability to defend ourselves.
Posted by eddihaskell | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
10:02 pm UTC
Look on the bright side.They are only 440 million a piece. Built to fight?
Posted by ron17571 | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
10:14 pm UTC
Drones are useless in a war with China once the satellite uplink is gone, because they can hit satellites in orbit (as China was foolish enough to show, evoking an equally stupid response by the US military if I remember correctly). That space junk will float around for centuries with great speed and GPS systems can be damaged by the debris.
Posted by Exwaan | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
10:48 pm UTC
Private industry would have fired these incompetents before the day was out. We do need a leaner government bureaucracy.
Posted by Margaretville | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
10:54 pm UTC
Where is John Boyd when you need him. Hint; without Boyd there would be no F 15/F16.
Posted by JrBoydRIP | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
12:30 am UTC
None of our adversaries in the last 30 (or more) years even had an air wing or navy. Airborne troops are obsolete. Marines are scrambling for a traditional mission (WWII style). Military must have a base with a PX, bowling alley, cinema, gym, pool, before any serious combat can be considered. And we still can’t keep up. What fools run our military?
Posted by molonolie7932Q | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
1:16 am UTC
One again w screwed up! He was the POTUS that approved the final designs. $400,000,000,000.00 wasted!
Posted by susan69 | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
2:35 am UTC
The way to fix this mess is with sound engineering.
No, I am not suggesting magic engineering, but using sound design practices. That means go back to what each service really wants and give each service its own version rather than a “one size fit all, do everything” airplane.
Does the USAF really want VTOL? If not, knock all that weight off of the plane and give them a fixed-engine version of it.
Does the Navy and Marines insist on VTOL? If so, do they need all the air-superiority stuff, or do they just want to drop bombs on things?
“Do everything” systems often cost a lot more than different, specialized systems.
Posted by Flechette | Report as abusive
Dec 6, 2014
2:52 am UTC
@DwightJones: “Give that $400 Billion to the UN and join our species in harmonizing with this planet.”
Thanks, I needed a good laugh! That was a good one!
Posted by Flechette | Report as abusive
Dec 7, 2014
6:02 am UTC
It’s a vertical takeoff and go type aircraft…It can’t suck, it can’t blow, it can’t fly….what’cha going to do Lockheed? It’s been a bad design since day one….ya’ just can’t fix a bad problem…..good luck with your sales after this snafu.
Posted by bigcatdaddy | Report as abusive
Dec 7, 2014
8:01 am UTC
The F-35 is well known to those who maintain and fly it to be less than what was hoped for to replace the F-16 of F-18
In simple terms, it’s dog.
Posted by Dave7617 | Report as abusive
Dec 7, 2014
10:45 am UTC
Yet Obama is encircling a nuke armed Bear….
He’s risking nuclear war by doing so and putting all Americans at risk.
The solution : He should step down immediately.
Posted by Dashark1 | Report as abusive
Dec 7, 2014
3:35 pm UTC
To make the best of a bad, nay, disastrous situation, a never built variant of the F-16 needs to be considered for the F-35.
The proposal was to strip everything not required for an air superiority role off the F-16 (F-35) and re-engineer some frames to be thinner (no bombs > less metal needed to support them), slightly enlarge the flight control surfaces and turn the F-16 (F-35) into a “turner & burner”,
The unit cost (in old $) would be $1 million less than standard F-16s. Perhaps it is not too late yet to build this variant of the F-16.
Otherwise, apply this logic to the F-35AS (air superiority) and start discussions about building the only 6th generation fighter in production (the cost effective Viggen) under license.
The novel (Twilight’s Last Gleaming) about the Chinese defeating the USN, USAF and USA+USMC in a resource war over Tanzania @2027 prominently features the weaknesses of the F-35 “Lardbucket” as it will be known. Other US military weaknesses are the Chinese smuggle almost a thousand supersonic anti-ship missiles into Tanzania in commercial shipping containers and take out a USN carrier task force plus amphibious assault group in a dozen minute attack. Add a Makin Island type capture of Diego Garcia. Without naval or air superiority and no secure land bridge, the supply lines for the three divisions in Kenya are weak and inadequate. (Also, the Chinese bribe Americans to get the satellite control passwords and disrupt them for weeks)
Going forward with current plans for the F-35 is a major part of the recipe for a future, disastrous military defeat.
Posted by AlanDrake | Report as abusive
Dec 7, 2014
4:52 am UTC
Money corrupts. Absolute money corrupts absolutely. While American children can’t get into college unless they agree to 25 years of oppressive debt, these titans of war mongering waste billions that could be used to support our future generations in their effort to make peace with the world while all nations re-align their economic policies and wrap their arms around the Earth in a sustainable embrace. The Defense Department needs to be dismantled and rebuilt for a new era of cooperation and conciliation.
Posted by Newsrocket | Report as abusive
Dec 8, 2014
6:29 am UTC
Why are we spending hundreds of billions on developing manned aircraft? With that type of money we could have invested in a higher number of remotely operated aircraft that do not have the physiological restraints that a human pilot introduces. For every human piloted aircraft there could be ten smaller, much more manuverable, much longer flight time drones that could overwhelm human piloted enemy fighters. They could have all sorts of high tech pre-programming that would not require a constant link to a controller base. An EMP would disable a fly-by-wire human piloted plane anyway. And they could be built in greater numbers for the cost of single human piloted fighter. Again, overwhelm any enemy fighters. The potential is almost endless. This F35 is already destined to be obsolete before it it actually deployed. Heavy, limited g-pulling and range (human factor). Total waste of money and resourced.
Posted by BrettRodgers | Report as abusive
Dec 18, 2014
1:05 am UTC
[…] procurement industry. The armed services are trying to boost their worst aircraft, the totally worthless F-35, by trashing their best, the simple, effective, proven A-10 […]
Posted by The War Nerd: More proof the US defense industry has nothing to do with defending America | Automated Cash Software | Report as abusive
Dec 19, 2014
10:24 am UTC
It’s a massive waste of money, but really I wonder whether any manned fighters have much of a role anymore. Close air support planes (eg the A10) still have their uses although they could eventually be replaced by heavy drones. Manned air superiority fighters seem to exist just to give pilots something to fly.
Posted by Simon_Newman | Report as abusive
Jan 20, 2015
9:45 pm UTC
Sounds like the best thing for us to do is to make sure the Chinese steal this design and attempt to make it work while we abandon it and start on something better.
Posted by BullTrout | Report as abusive
Jan 29, 2015
8:11 pm UTC
“our jet fighters don’t need outdated guns anymore, it’s all about missiles”.
have we not heard this before? like during the release of the F4 phantom when in vietnam they immediately learned the value of having something that would work without fail in battle every time?
perhaps with the enhanced reliability of new engines,maybe we don’t need twin engines anymore -and a larger single engine certainly chops the per craft price by at least 30 percent(providing it’s not “hopped up” beyond reason).
this mad rush towards stealth and fire beyond visual is insanely impractical. since when do we allow our pilots to shoot missiles at planes they cannot confirm as combatants? when has NATO been in a conflict where radar invisibility made any overall difference to an outcome?
i say by producing say two different simpler, smaller, lighter and decent handling planes, splitting the design parameters into two roles
such as for example A10 THUNDERBOLTS for bombing/ground attack and F20 TIGERSHARKS for intercepter fighter, we could for less than the costs of aquiring,operating, maintaining and training one multirole fighter/bomber twin jet such as the F18 hornet.
this solution would for less cost give our troops 2 pilots overhead, one hitting enemy armour while the other patrols higher up to take on enemy aircraft. there’s no way one multirole”jack-of-all-trades- master-of -none”pilot can approach the real world practical effectiveness of two purpose built dedicated role airframes piloted by aviators of equal skill
Posted by beanandhamster | Report as abusive
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