Watch the full interview below or listen to the full episode on your iPhone HERE.
Guy: This week welcome to the show Patricia Daly. She is a fully qualified Nutritional Therapist (BA Hons, dipNT, mBANT, mNTOI) based in Dublin, Ireland. Following her cancer diagnosis, she left her corporate career and started studying nutrition, specialising in the area of Integrative Cancer Care. As a Swiss native, she regularly attends training courses in Switzerland/ Germany, including at the renowned Tumor Biology Center in Freiburg, Germany.
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Audio Version
Questions we ask in this episode:
What is the ketogenic diet and why is it effective (with cancer)?
Have you looked at exogenous ketones?
What about our emotions and stress levels?
Do you undertake any specific type of exercise?
What does Patricia Daly eat?
Get More Of Patricia Daly
http://patriciadaly.com/
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Full Transcript
Guy
Hello. Good morning, good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is, of course, Guy Lawrence of 180 Nutrition, and welcome to another episode of The Health Sessions; where of course, we are cutting through the confusion by connecting with leading global health and wellness experts to share the best and the latest science and thinking to help everyone empower themselves to turn their health and lives around.
[00:00:30] This week, we are doing it with the fantastic Patricia Daly. This was a topic I was very excited to get into. I don’t want to give away too much for the show, because Patricia’s going to go into in great detail. In a nutshell, she was diagnosed with eye cancer at the age of 28, I think; correct me if I’m wrong, I apologize in advance.
[00:01:00] Essentially, she felt she was exercising, doing all the right things anyway, and it came as quite a surprise to her. Then after that, she started to take power into her own hands, essentially. Then started adjusting her diet; was then re-diagnosed again after two more years, and the cancer had come back more aggressively. She’s clearly a very strong-willed person, and she continued to research and investigate cancer. She’s doing remarkably well and she now shares her journey and story with you.
[00:01:30] You can check out her website, patriciadaly.com, where she’s got a heap of information there. She’s also got a brand new book out called The Ketogenic Kitchen, which is fantastic and I highly recommend you checking it out … from a dietary perspective anyway.
[00:02:00] We get into this fascinating journey, what’s she’s learned, how she’s changed her life. In fact, and how we can apply it to ourselves as well. I have no doubt you are going to enjoy today’s show. As always, if you’re listening to this through us iTunes, just hit that subscribe button, five star us. If you’re really enjoying the shows, please leave us a review; let us know how these podcasts are affecting your lives, because we love hearing from you. Especially because we press send, the podcast goes out into cyberspace, and we know everyone’s listening, so some feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Of course, if you do know anyone with cancer and is looking for more information and other people’s journeys on with it, then this podcast would be great place to share it with them. Anyway, let’s go over to today’s show. Enjoy.
[00:02:30] Hi, this is Guy Lawrence. I’m joined with Stuart Cook as always. Hey, Stu.
Stu
Hello, Guy.
Guy
Our fantastic guest today is Patricia Daly. Patricia, welcome to the show.
Patricia: Yeah, hi. It’s brilliant to be here. I’m delighted to be asked to come on your show, it’s great.
Guy
[00:03:00] Look, I’m very excited; I’m very excited about your show and your own personal journey and story. I just believe it’s going to inspire and help so many others, because it’s such a fascinating topic as well. Before we get into that, Patricia, I’m going to ask you a quick question. That was basically, “If somebody stopped you on the street and asked you what you did for a living, what would you say?”
Patricia:
I would say I’m a nutritional therapist. That’s usually sort of the most neutral form. If I absolutely don’t want to talk about … That’s the thing, as soon as you say you’re a nutritional therapist, people just jump on it and they actually want advice on what to have for breakfast.
Guy
Yeah.
Patricia
Sometimes, dinner parties. It’s just a party killer. Sometimes I actually go back. My old career, or I’m by my first career was a banker. I was a financial advisor. I studied business and [entrepreneurialships 00:03:48], so sometimes if I don’t know the person, I-
Guy
[00:04:00] Yeah. we get the same issue. I hear you, Patricia. When people ask me, and I’ll often joke and say, “I actually do as little as possible these days,” and leave her at that.
Stu
He says joke, but that’s actually quite true.
Patricia: Yeah. No, sometimes really, I’m not in the mood to talk shop and then I just say something completely non-food related, because it is a very emotive topic.
Guy
[00:04:30] Yeah, fantastic. Well, could we get back into your own personal journey? Obviously … I can’t remember the exact date, but you were diagnosed with eye cancer? You heavily looked into that since, and you’ve been on an amazing journey yourself, of discovery. Now you’re sharing it with other people, which is fantastic, and why we’re so excited to have you on.
Can you take us back a bit to maybe when you were a banker; you’ve mentioned you were a triathlete, you’re doing these things and then this happened, and so forth. Knock yourself out.
Patricia
[00:05:30] Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean basically, I’ve always been interested in health and nutrition. I grew up in Switzerland, I’m Swiss. In Switzerland, as you probably know, it’s one of the most progressive countries when it comes to complementary therapy. In Switzerland, complementary medicine is enshrined in the constitution. That was by popular vote. You just grow up in a different way than I see people in Ireland grow up, for instance. You very much grow up with, “Okay, you’ve got a temperature.” You don’t get Calpol or something like that, you get vinegar socks. Basically, that’s how I grew up.
[00:06:00] Here though, it’s complete and utterly quackery, but it works really well. I’ve always been in touch, I’ve always been interested, especially being a triathlete as well. We did have people come in, talking about nutrition to us. I remember actually, Natascha Badmann, she won Hawaii several times. Her coach came in to talk about nutrition. Then I went completely vegetarian for a year, with disastrous results. Didn’t suit me at all.
[00:06:30] I was always experimenting and checking different aspects of food, and what impact its had on my performance and on my body. Yeah, so I competed internationally as well for about 10 years from … I started triathlon when I was 14 until about 24, and then I stopped and I moved to Ireland. I was working in corporate banking and studied in Switzerland and everything. When I moved to Ireland, then very soon I realized it was my first winter here, and I got constant, recurrent infections. I thought, “It’s just the weather. It’s getting used to it, it’s not an issue.”
[00:07:00] I started getting concerned, because I was always very in tune with my body. I started in March 2008. I remember starting go for block tests and just really getting to asking my GP, “Look, there’s something is not right.” I just kind of figured out what it is.
[00:07:30] Then in May 2008, I started having this flickering in the corner of my eye. Initially I thought, “It’s just I’m that busy, maybe it’s that, or I’m training too much, or …” You know. You don’t want to be a hypochondriac. Then in about … I think it was only about six to eight weeks later, I actually temporarily lost my vision. When I was jumping on the trampoline and doing hand stands, since, yeah. Then I knew, “Okay. This is not too cool, and I need to, you know, get this checked out. This is something serious now.”
[00:08:00] I did call them then, as soon as I was at work, in the morning. I called just a random optician, just googled “optician nearby,” and described my symptoms, and I had to go in immediately. Then things went really quickly. I mean, first they talked about a detached retina, which was the case, but it was detached because of a large tumor … in the eye. It was a tumor between the retina and the choroid, and it had started to push off the retina.
[00:09:00] Yeah, so I had about three weeks to prepare to go to Liverpool. It was such a rare form of cancer at the time here in Ireland, that there was no treatment available. That has changed now, because apparently it is becoming more common. I had to go to Liverpool, and I had plaque radiotherapy, which is … Yeah. It’s not something I would do again, I think. It’s really very, very rough. They basically put you on the general anesthetic, take the eye, or turn the eye around, stitch a plaque on; a radioactive plaque. Then you basically have that plaque stitched on for four, five days. For me, it was four days. Then they do the same. They do verses on the general anesthetic.
[00:09:30] It’s really, really rough. I was completely shattered, and you look like a boxer after a lost match. I asked my oncologist, “So is there … What can I do?” That always my … That’s who I am. I want to … It’s not that I want to be … I’m not a control freak. I take responsibility. I want to do something to be better, because I feel pretty crap right now. I mean, his answer … I was sort of talking to a friend about this recently, what if his answer had been different? He answered, “Just go home. Just rest for a little while, and then go back to your old life.”
I was like, “Are you serious? Are you serious?” That really kick-started my scientific curiosity, or I don’t know what it was.
Guy
What year was this, Patricia?
Patricia
It was in 2008.
Guy
2008. Okay.
Patricia
[00:10:30] Yeah. I was 28 at the time. Yeah. Very young and … I started then, researching and checking what can I do myself. The first protocol is pretty much nutrition when you start. Even using your common sense. There must be a link between what you put in your mouth and just the implications this has. I knew that from experience.
About three weeks after finishing radiotherapy, I started nutritional therapy, I started studying, which was a huge struggle, because I couldn’t really look into computer for more than five to 10 minutes before I got …
Guy
Of course, yeah.
Patricia
Sick. Physically sick. I couldn’t read for long periods of time, so I had to record or get the lectures recorded, and then you listen back. That was really hard, because I’m a very visual person and I learn visually. I have to completely just change all of that and really start to listen, and absorb information and learn that way. That was a big learning curve.
[00:11:30] I made, obviously, lots of changes to my nutrition, and then also lifestyle. Obviously training was out for a little while. Intense training as well.
Guy
What were the first changes you started to make? You’ve been diagnosed, you’ve looked and thought, “I need to reevaluate what I’m doing.” What were the first bits of information you came across, and then the first action steps you took from that point?
Patricia
[00:12:00] Yeah, I mean it was at the time really … I went completely towards loads of juicing. Lots of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and really that route pretty much … Not too much meat, or I didn’t meat anymore, although I knew that wasn’t … From the past, that wasn’t a really clever thing to do, but that was just what I learned in college at the time.
[00:12:30] Yeah, I definitely had it really clean. Clean in [invertical 00:12:28] whatever that means. I had a really whole foods diet. I didn’t eat any processed foods, I didn’t eat any refined carbs. When I had sugar before, I substituted it with dried fruits, or other substitutes. They were obviously still very high glycemic foods. Not even 20 months later, I had a relapse.
Guy
Right.
Patricia
It went very, very quickly.
Stu
Right.
Patricia
I’m not sure now. Obviously nobody will ever know. Also I had my first child. I did get [inaudible 00:13:08] during pregnancy. It was when she was about six weeks, so I had to go for a set, a major scan, and really testing everything. I knew something wasn’t right. I just-
Stu
Yeah.
Patricia
[00:13:30] I had the symptoms again, and you just know. Once you’ve had it, you do have this instinct. I had this light flickering again. I said it to my consultant, “Look, I think this is not right,” and he said, “Look, all the scans are clear. You know, you’re fine. Just don’t worry, it’s in your head.” Literally.
I just didn’t actually then … I just kept being very persistent, and I said, “Look, I want to come back for more tests.” Then finally, in April, they said, “Okay, let’s do your test a bit earlier.”
[00:14:30] Yeah. Then it just … The tumor had doubled in size again, and it was growing very aggressively. Then the second time round, and my daughter was only six months old at the time, I had to do proton beam therapy. Which probably, with what I know now, I would go straight away with that. It’s a lot more invasive as per the dosage, and it has small, collateral damage down to plaque radiotherapy. It is easier. For me, it was a lot easier to tolerate. I only had one general anesthetic at the time, too. Attached the markers to the back of the eye, and then afterwards, it was much easier than the first time round. Obviously, having the relapse was really, really hard. I mean, that nearly broke me.
Guy
[00:15:00] Yeah. Sorry, let me ask a question. Just to be clear. You were diagnosed initially. Then you started to looking to change, so you started juicing, you swapped sugar for dried fruits. You were eating what you perceived to be a clean diet. Then-
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
20 months later, you were re-diagnosed, and it came back more aggressively. Okay.
Patricia
[00:15:30] Yeah. Plus, it had also spread to outside the eye, it had a tumor outside the eye as well. That was obviously bad news, too. I mean, I was lucky it didn’t spread to the liver or the bones or somewhere else, which it can do. Still, “Okay, this is not cool.”
[00:16:00] Yeah, so for me, I never really considered going completely alternative; for me, it was, “Okay, I need to knock this tumor on the head,” because it was just growing so aggressively, that I sort of felt, “No, I don’t have any other choice.” Although I know … Or I knew it didn’t have any long-lasting effects, the radiotherapy. I was, “Okay, let’s knock this tumor on the head,” and then long-term management will look into that.
As we say, I think the most depressing thing was that I had made so many changes. I felt I had done my best, and I had invested a lot of time, effort, and energy into making changes and preventing a relapse. That was just a big, fat slap in the face.
Guy
I can imagine, yeah. Like the mindset after that could’ve destroyed you, really.
Patricia
Yeah. Well, I am a triathlete, so I don’t give up.
Giving up is not an option. Yeah, I did keep researching, and I think I did come across the ketogenic diet for the first time shortly after my relapse. I was strongly advised not to do anything stupid or extreme.
Stu
Right. Yeah.
Patricia
Not even supplements or anything. There was just that, “No, we just did not know. You can’t do all these things. Just, you know, wait and see.” That’s what I did-
Guy
Like that helps. Really, you know? Waiting and seeing. Yeah.
Patricia
[00:17:30] Yeah. Exactly, yeah. Well, I waited and researched, which was a bit more proactive. Then I remember in April 2012, things had really gotten quite bad, with regards to the side-effects from the treatment. I had a lot of edemas, lots of fluids in DI. That obviously lost pressure. I had developed cataracts as well. I had radiotherapy-related retinopathy. I started to have macular degeneration. I had everything in one eye. I mean, it was quite incredible.
[00:18:30] Sometimes my consultant asked me to come in for his students, so that they could look into my eye and actually see at one glance all the different things that was wrong in the eye, including a tumor. I was sort of pushed with my back to the wall, and they were sort of suggesting, “Okay, let’s do Avastin injections,” because I had a lot of excess blood vessels as well. That’s obviously one of the hallmarks of cancer, because the tumor needs blood vessels for energy and to grow. We just didn’t know at the time how much activity is there. They said, “We don’t think the tumor is active,” but obviously the blood vessels, they were a bit concerned. That’s why they suggested Avastin, which is an anti-genesis inhibitor.
[00:19:00] The other option would have been to just remove the eye. For me, it was just both options were not really an option. I have two small children; my son was eight months, my daughter was two and a half years old. That’s when I said, “Okay, I have nothing to lose.” I started the ketogenic diet. I had it all ready to go in my head. I had come across it through German researchers, actually. Dr. Johannes Coy, and also Professor Ulrike Kammerer was quite active as well. Both of them, actually, are very active and I’m in touch with them.
[00:20:00] That’s how I started. I didn’t go as low as is now the recommendation. Now is the recommendation for a really strict ketogenic diet is to go down to 12 grams of net carbs. I started with 60. I said I make it very simple, I just have three meals a day, which was a big challenge for me, because I was a constant grazer and snacker. I had 20 grams with each meal … of carbs. Then I started slowly to adjust protein as well, and just really improved the quality of fats, but initially I just sort of focused on the carbs. The effects were really, pretty amazing. The one good thing about my tumor is that you can actually look at it.
Guy
Right. Yeah.
Patricia
[00:20:30] You can dilate the eye and actually see what’s going on, and also what’s going on with the environment, which is fascinating. You can’t do that with any other tumor, as far as I know. Yeah, we saw very immediate almost effects, so I had to go back … I think it was five or six weeks I got very closely monitored. My consultant said, “Okay, I give you two or three months to do your own thing.” He knew me well, that’s the hitch. He said, “Okay, you’ve got my blessing to do whatever you want to do. But you have to come very, very regularly for monitoring.”
Guy
Then four years along, how is your eye now?
Patricia
Yeah, that’s the amazing thing. I mean, I was also told in 2010 that I would lose my vision within 12 to 18 months. My vision is nearly normal. I have a little bit of macular degeneration. Plaque was stitched on, I’ve got a bit of peripheral loss of vision. I mean, the edema is gone, the cataracts are not an issue. All the blood vessels, they’re just as they should be.
Yeah, it really calmed down very quickly. Yeah, my consultant said at the time, “Okay, we put it on ice, the Avastin injections.” Everything is put on ice at the moment.
Stu
Wow
[00:22:00] For our audience that perhaps are not familiar with a ketogenic diet, could you just outline in layman’s terms what the principles are? Then perhaps why you thought that it was effective at least for you.
Patricia
Yeah, I mean in very simple terms, it a very low carbohydrate. It’s moderate to, in some cases, even low protein is allowed, that’s the important thing. It is pretty high in fat.
Stu
Right.
Patricia
[00:22:30] The main goal, really, is to start going into a fat-burning state, as opposed to predominantly burn glucose to generate energy. Healthy cells, they can switch back and forth. They like a high bit [inaudible 00:22:40], basically. They can burn glucose, or they can burn fat.
The thing is, with cancer cells, what we do know is that they really struggle burning fat or burning keton bodies for energy … for various reasons. Most tumors or most cancer cells, they are, as we call them, very glycolytic. They rely on glucose. That’s their [medding 00:23:09] fuels. Every cell in our body needs fuel, whether it’s a healthy cell or a cancer cell. Especially cancer cells. They obviously are pretty active cells, they proliferate, they try to metastasize. They do need quite a lot of fuel. Their main fuel is glucose. That’s, for various reasons as well, one of the reasons is that a lot of cancer cells have very damaged or dysfunctional or nonexistent mitochondria. Mitochondria are the powerhouses of our cells, so they are the source of energy. The source of energy for life, basically. That’s where we create our ATP, the energy currency for our cells.
[00:24:30] In cancer cells, there’s just something has gone wrong with the mitochondria, and that’s why they have to rely on this very, very old way of generating energy. It’s basically fermentation. It’s an energy pathway that was predominant when we didn’t have oxygen on the earth. That’s how originally all organisms … Or cells. That’s how they created energy, until oxygen came into play, and then the mitochondria were formed and all of that.
It’s fascinating even going back to, “Why are cancer cells using such archaic forms of energy generation?”
Guy
Are there any benefits … Go on, Stu. Go for it.
Stu
[00:25:00] No, I was going to say, it’s almost like there’s some prehistoric coding there in all of us. It’s very much influenced by our lifestyle factors, modern day lifestyle factors; albeit these radical dietary changes that we have made over the last 200 years. It’s fascinating to hear so many stories like yours that have almost tapped in to that coding and had radical outcomes. Fascinating stuff.
Patricia
[00:25:30] Yeah. I mean, it is. Without ketosis, the human race wouldn’t be here. A ketogenic diet’s basically a mimic fasting as well, and that’s how they were “discovered,” if you will. In the 1920s, approximately. When doctors realized that epileptic patients didn’t have seizures anymore when they were sick, and when they had fast. That’s basically how ketogenic diets were discovered.
[00:26:00] Yeah, it’s absolutely fascinating, the whole aspect of fasting as well. We have to fast all the time. Sometimes we just simply didn’t have food. If we didn’t have access to our fat reserves, because ultimately that’s what it is, we start burning fat; whether that’s from our own body stores or from our plate. That’s how, ultimately, we survive.
If we just had access to glucose, we wouldn’t survive very long, because the stores are tiny compared to the fat stores.
Guy
[00:26:30] Yeah. With the ketogenic diet, with what you learned, do you think it’s something that should be diagnosed as a therapeutic diet in terms of people that might have cancer or an illness? They’re immune system is down and there’s something not right to bring them back to [homeostatus 00:26:43], or do you think everyone should be doing a ketogenic diet? What are your thoughts around that? I think there’s a lot of confusion in the public eye when it comes to ketogenic diets.
Patricia
[00:27:00] Yeah, definitely. I do, in my opinion, it’s a [theraputic 00:26:57] tool. If it is being used, it should be used for a certain period of time. For me, I’m not a … I mean, my diet has changed a lot in the last four years. Although I’m still in ketosis, but I’m not in as deep ketosis, and I’m not constantly in ketosis. I don’t think that’s necessary. I don’t think it’s natural.
Stu
Yeah.
Patricia
[00:27:30] I do think it’s a therapy. It’s metabolic therapy, and we shouldn’t just put everyone on metabolic therapy. I also think that’s ultimately what we want, is what I said earlier. It’s that metabolic flexibility, and I think I had lost that. I mean, all I was doing. I couldn’t get up in the morning and leave the house without breakfast. I literally fainted.
[00:28:00] There was something going on, whether it was probably insulin resistance. My blood sugars were, I’d say, all over the place if I had measured them at the time. Now I really feel I’m much more flexible. I’m much better at using … Or even I’d say, my sensitivity to insulin is probably a lot better again. Although I still obviously, I’m not keen on producing too much insulin, because we know this can be a growth factor for cancer cells. I don’t want to have massive insulin spikes.
[00:28:30] I think that’s what, ultimately, we have to aim for. When we look at, for instance, there’s Dr. Kraft in the states who did … Years ago, on thousands of patients, he did insulin testing and glucose, and insulin sensitivity. He came to the conclusion that a lot of people, maybe 60, 70, or even more percent of the population just have a problem with carbs and metabolizing carbs.
[00:29:00] That’s when, I think, the ketogenic diet is for a very short term, can actually come into play. It’s almost like a resetting. Also, for hormonal issues. Actually, a colleague of mine in the UK, he uses ketogenic diets for resetting hormones for seven, eight weeks. Then weans people off it again, so I think it’s a strategic tool. I don’t think everybody should constantly be on a ketogenic diet. It’s great for weight-loss as well, for instance, yeah.
Guy
Of course. Yeah, fantastic. No, that’s great. I think that’ll clear up a lot of confusion. What about exogenous ketones? Have you looked at that at all? Exogenous …
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
It’s a funny word. I had to look it up; I’m like, “Exogenous? What’s that mean?” [inaudible 00:29:40] only?
Stu
Yes.
Patricia
[00:30:00] Yeah. Exactly. Supplements, basically. Yeah, so there’s ketone [zods 00:29:49], which are the ones that are available on the market at the moment. There’s also the ketone esters, which they’re developing at the moment. They’re terribly expensive … at the moment. I do think they will have a place for cancer, we just simply do not know at the moment; I don’t think we have enough evidence to use them with cancer patients.
[00:30:30] There are very interesting trials going on at the moment under Professor Scheck, Adrienne Scheck, in Arizona. Also other places, that she sort of … The one I’m in touch most, where they use exogenous ketones, so ketone supplements during chemotherapy and also regular therapy. It sensitizes cancer cells to the treatment. They found that irrespective of glucose levels, because that can be an issue. A lot of cancer patients are on steroids, for instance. Their glucose levels can really be all over the place, but they did find that when supplementing with ketones, that it made chemotherapy, and also regular therapy more effective.
[00:31:30] Obviously, if we manage to reduce glucose also, then that can have even better effects. That’s incredibly exciting, I think. Just to use ketones in conjunction with a conventional treatment. At the moment, it’s pre-clinical trials, and they are having randomized control trials going on in humans. I don’t know, or nobody probably knows, when those results will come out. It probably is still a few years to wait, unfortunately. It’s just a bit of a waiting game at the moment, but I think that’s why ultimately, the ketogenic diet will have its place in clinical practice. It will be to especially also reduce side-effects, and I see that all the time with …
[00:32:00] I attract very young clients with … I also have quite a lot of brain tumor clients, plus also all the cancers. They’re fantastic in how proactive they are, and they really challenge me all the time as well. I learn from them as well. They quite quickly come across the research by [vol-tee-long-oh 00:32:21], for instance, who does a lot of research into fasting to enhance the effects of chemo. When somebody actually does follow the regime …
[00:33:00] There’s quite a lot of practitioners now in the states; naturopathic oncologists, and even convention oncologists, starting to use fasting during treatment. The amount of how it reduces side-effects is quite … I mean, my mind is blown sometimes when I see somebody who’s gone through the first cycle without doing anything. The side-effects are tremendous, and they really can’t eat for a long time after, it’s because they just feel so bad.
[00:33:30] Then when they start to do the fasting before … Maybe for about 18 to 24 hours, which would sound a lot to people, but it’s doable with a lot of support beforehand. Also after the chemotherapy … The way it changes, it’s quite incredible, really, in terms of side-effects. I think that’s really … For me, quality of life is everything. I know for a lot of cancer patients, that’s ultimately what we’re looking for as well. It’s management in the long-term, and it’s quality of life, and it’s getting through the treatment.
Guy
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Stu
Where the conventional treatment is concerned … Chemo and radiation; in your view, like right now, are they the most effective treatments do you think, for cancer?
Patricia
Depends on the type of cancer. I do think, yeah for … Especially the stage as well. I do think at some very, very advanced stages, it’s really just prolonging life for a few weeks. There’s not a lot more to it anymore. I mean, there’s some types where I said, “Oh, yeah, it’s a no-brainer. Of course you do chemo.” There’s absolutely no debate. Even with breast cancer, depends premenopausal or postmenopausal, there’s actually quite a big difference as well.
[00:35:00] I think for patients, what I always say is just really challenge your oncologist. Get them to review with you the evidence, and, “Okay, how much of a difference will it really make, you know?” Just to get them to be really open. Actually, more and more oncologists I see that they have this. They’re actually totally willing to have this open discussion. Does it make sense to do another round? Or does it make sense to adopt a wait-and-see approach? We also know, for instance, glioblastoma; GBM.
[00:35:30] There’s oncologists who say very openly, “The standard, the gold standard, the standard archaic does not work. It just simply does not work. We need to find other alternatives.” I think yeah, for glioblastoma … There’s one oncologist in the UK who is very outspoken about it. “Look, we have a problem. It’s just chemo, chemo radiation, and surgery; it’s a gold standard as we know it. It’s just not good enough.”
Guy
It doesn’t fix the underlying cause, does it, ultimately at the end of the day?
Patricia
[00:36:00] That’s the thing. I think for me, [inaudible 00:35:50] treatment is knocking the tumor on the head. I have no doubt, for instance, in my case. It was just growing so fast, God only knows where it would have grown. Though for me, it was, “Okay, we have to stop this. We have to stop the growth.”
You have to do something fairly radical sometimes. Then there’s also, for instance, prostate cancer, certain types, when they say, “Okay, let’s adopt a wait-and-see position,” and we don’t do any treatment yet. It really, very much depends on the behavior of the tumor, the stage, and grade, and all of this.
[00:36:30] I think we can sort of make blanket statements, “Chemo is bad,” or “Radio is bad,” or “Chemo is good,” or “Radio is good.”
Stu
Yeah, absolutely.
Patricia
You have to have a very nuanced discussion, which isn’t happening, unfortunately. There’s no nuance, it’s just people want yes or no, black and white.
Stu
Yeah.
Guy
Yeah, of course.
Patricia
[00:37:00] In the medical profession, I think that’s a bit the issue sometimes as well. There’s no integration … also looking at other options. That’s what I find-
Stu
That’s right. I guess when thinking about options, Gulf State … I think it was Chris Carr that coined the phrase, “Prevention is the cure.” From your perspective, how can we best prevent this? Do everything that we can to reduce our chances of cancer.
Patricia
There’s so many aspects. I think for me, nutrition is clearly one part of the puzzle. I always say, it’s clearly a key part of the puzzle; there’s lots of other parts. For me, for instance … I saw that you had Bruce Lipton on your podcast as well. I’m such a big believer in the biology of belief.
[00:38:00] For me, I sometimes wonder … In 2012, I basically said to my consultant, “Look, you’ve done your job. Thank you very much, but you know, whatever we’re doing, it’s not working. I’m taking over now.” That’s what I said. I just do what I need to do now. I think even just saying this … In my head, I was just convinced I am going to find something.
Guy
Yeah.
Stu
Yes.
Patricia
It it going to work. I think is just … It’s so key. It’s not just the fact that ketosis definitely helped as well, of course. In my case, and for my tumor, I think there’s so many other things. For me, I think the emotional component was huge. I mean, I developed cancer after moving over from Switzerland to Ireland, which didn’t go very smoothly. It was very hard as well, for me to leave my life in Switzerland behind. Just this whole transition, and there was a lot of emotional turmoil that I hadn’t had before in my life. It was always like, yeah, reinventing myself. Starting from scratch.
Guy
It’s so interesting you say that, because the first person I met with cancer became a friend. She had a four-inch brain tumor. When I sat next to her, she was on the ketogenic diet, along with the charity that I’d met.
[00:39:30] You could see, she had been told there was nothing they could do for her and sent her home. She refused to accept that. When I met her, there was absolutely 100% belief in what she was doing. She’s still here six years later and the tumor has shrunk, right?
Patricia
Brilliant.
Guy
You could just see that, and you think, “Wow. Yeah, I wouldn’t argue with this lady, actually.”
Patricia
[00:40:00] Yeah. I think that’s the thing sometimes. I say that to my own clients. Whatever you do, you have to be convinced that this is what you need to do. I think there’s so much … Call it placebo or belief or whatever. I think it’s got so much more power than we think, and than we will ever know.
Stu
[00:40:30] Absolutely. You mentioned Bruce Lipton, and it was funny because I’ve always been a skeptical about the [woo-woo 00:40:22], and about the “yeah, sure, okay.” [crosstalk 00:40:25] Once we spoke to Bruce, Bruce was the only person that has ever really, clearly outlined the scientific evidence now that says what we think can trigger biological changes in our body. It’s that simple. This is how we do it. I thought, “Oh, my word.”
[00:41:00] Then you realize that when people talk about the placebo and the power of the mind, well there is massive evidence to support that. If you can dial into that right mindset, then I think that is another piece of the puzzle, and it’s a really strong piece as well.
Patricia
Yep. Exactly. Of course, in terms of cancer protection, there’s this whole older different aspects. I think sleep is hugely important. Light exposure and then also dark exposure. What I’m doing now is not ideal as nearly 10 o’ clock [inaudible 00:41:18].
Guy
We’re worth it Patricia, we’re worth it.
Patricia
You are totally worth it, exactly.
[00:41:30] Sleep is huge. Exercise is huge. Toxins, or how to make sure you’re constantly bathing in lots of different toxins. Just not getting obsessed with it. There’s a few very simple things that people can do. I think yeah, just having all these components and being in tune, and choosing.
[00:42:00] I think also, I was very unhappy in my career. I didn’t do what I was meant to do. I didn’t do what I was passionate about. I think having passion in life definitely helps. Having a good community … These are all aspects that we can all work on to … They’re elements of cancer prevention. Obviously nutrition is a big one.
Guy
It’s interesting. Are you familiar with Phillip Day? Do you know who is Phillip Day?
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
Yeah, we had him on the podcast.
Patricia
Okay.
Guy
[00:43:00] Yeah, a few months ago. He’s great, such a great guy. He said something that really stuck out, he said, “100% of cases with cancer, their immune system is broken.” It always makes me think, “Well, what’s contributing to the immune system breaking in the first place?” Then you can start to look at all the lifestyle factors: the sleep, the stress, and the food we eat, and everything else that can contribute to it.
Yet on the flip side, when they’re treating cancer patients conventionally with chemo, it’s then this one mono approach. Even though it’s a multi-faceted play in the first place.
Patricia
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that’s the thing. I think it’s because it’s such a complex disease, you can’t just expect to do a few rounds of chemo and then be fine again. I think that’s just illusion.
Guy
Yeah.
Patricia
Yeah.
Stu
Yeah, exactly right. In the same vein, I guess you can’t expect to drink a couple of green juices and everything will be fine. It’s really … It’s definitely a wholistic approach I think that would at least arm you with the best information and chance; the best outcome.
Guy
Yeah.
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
It’s pretty overwhelming though, isn’t it?
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
[00:44:00] Even as a therapy, when you start looking at change and all … If you got all the aspects that you can improve on, and yet, to take that onboard sometimes, a lot of people can just go, “You know what? That’s just too much.”
Patricia
[00:44:30] That’s the thing, yeah. Sometimes it’s best to just start with … I always check with one. When I look at, or work with a person, “Okay, what will make the biggest difference? What will give them the biggest boosts of motivation? With maybe not a huge amount of change.” I think that’s sort of the art when you are doing a consultation with a cancer patient, “Okay, where do we start?” Sometimes it’s not nutrition.
Stu
Right.
Patricia
[00:45:00] It doesn’t always have to be nutritional if they don’t have any nutritional therapies. Sometimes it’s very obvious that they need to sort out other areas in their life first. It’s just trying to sort of nudge them gently into that direction. I’m not somebody who … I never force my opinion or anything onto somebody. I really want people to come to their own path and own solution themselves, because as we said earlier, if we believe in what we do and come up with it ourselves, that’s when it’s the most power.
Guy
Yeah. Well, would-
Stu
Definitely.
Guy
[00:45:30] What’s your take on exercise? When it comes to all this as well? Now moving forward, what would your exercise routine be now? I was interested that you were a triathlete before. In many people’s eyes that is training hard, and doing hard, and doing all the right things. I’m healthy and strong, and yet, you were diagnosed with cancer. Then you’ve gone through this period, and now you’ve come out the other side. I’m just interested to see what you think, how you exercise these days, and any relationship with that?
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
Yeah.
Patricia
[00:46:00] Yeah, I’ve pretty much … My body is not cooperating as I would like it to cooperate, and cardio is just not doing me any good. I would never be able to go for a set of one and a half, two-hour runs anymore as I used to do. When I do that, or even just when I overdo it a little bit, I get sick.
I was never actually, that was say about the immune system, I was never sick for about 10 years or longer before I was diagnosed. I never had even a cold or anything. I always thought that was really, really healthy, but I think my immune system is just stressed. It was just nothing going on.
[00:47:00] Now I definitely get very, very clear signals. I get reactions and so I have to always be very, very careful with exercise. What I do now, it is mostly … I do about two or three sessions of resistance training, and then everything else around is gentle. It’s sort of gentle yoga, and I have a cargo bike where I throw the kids in … Well, no, they climb in themselves. They’re in there, and when we have to do longer trips, I cycle them. It’s very low-intensity, or sort of mid-intensity. When I do high-intensity, it’s very, very [targetous 00:47:12], and I make sure I definitely have enough time to recover.
[00:47:30] When I look back at doing a 10k run in 37 and a half minutes in a triathlon … How did I do that? Just absolutely can’t even imagine. Yeah.
Stu
[00:48:00] It’s interesting, because where you’ve come from and what you’re doing now … We’ve been running 180 Nutrition for seven years now, and we’ve had so many podcasts, and spoken to so many amazing and groundbreaking pioneers in their specialist fields. And you in the last 10 minutes have ticked, all of the boxes of the advice that we have gleamed, taken from all of these guys around the world. There is a commonality between now and almost the best thing that we can do for our bodies, or at least try.
Guy
It’s interesting. I just want to highlight the point, because you mentioned resistance training as well. You do that, and not much … That’s how I train right now. Like short high-intensity; I’ll do a bit of surfing, and I lift weights, and maybe a bit of yoga.
[00:49:00] Working as a fitness trainer, when I used to work with cancer patients, the prescription of choice for exercise was weight training. Some of the main reasons for that were also from the mental aspect, as well, because they could actually see their body improving. You could measure them results, and then they could see they strength improving. Then mentally, they were getting stronger, which was feeding into the belief that they were getting healthier as well. Plus, the fact they increase in muscle mass, which dealt with insulin sensitivities and blood sugar levels better. They were producing more human growth hormone naturally, which was helping as well. Then there’s the fact that they sleep better. Having all these great benefits from it as well.
Patricia
Yeah. Yeah. I mean for me, it was a total change of my interests, because I was always … I mean, I did a little bit of resistance training sometimes, to either win, but it was very half-hearted. Now that’s really the focus, and obviously I’m so much more busy with the kids as well. I don’t have as much time to try. I don’t have my 15, 20 hours a week anymore.
Stu
Sure.
Patricia
That’s a fraction of that, so it’s a matter of being efficient and I’ve start to like it. Initially, I was, “Oh, no. I can’t do …” Now I’m really, yeah … I like doing it now.
Guy
It’s minimum effect of dose, that’s how I look at it. How can I get the most out of the shortest workout? Get that balance right, basically, and then move on.
Patricia
Yeah. There’s so many good coaches as well, for cancer patients. Especially some cancer patients when they have build a metastases, so they have to be. I always say, “Just go to the gym and do something, you know?” Just really get proper guidance by somebody like you who is trying. Some people, they go to the gym and then they do slightly silly things and cause themselves more damage than anything. I think it’s important, too-
Guy
[00:51:00] Then combine it with the nutrition. I don’t know if listeners know listening to this, we still have quite the … We sell high protein sort of all-natural super-food on our website. That was actually put together to help feed people that were having cancer. This was about 10 years ago, because it would sort of help with the muscle mass, and actually remove the process foods and increase it with natural and nutritionally dense foods. Then we could see what was going on in the fitness industry with the chemicals and the toxins and the artificial flavoring. Then we started to bring that message into the fitness industry. That’s how it all kind of came about, really.
Patricia
Okay.
Guy
Change the perception … Yeah. Yep.
Patricia
It’s interesting how it all involves-
Guy
Amazing. Amazing. I was going to ask, what do you eat on a daily basis now, Patricia?
Patricia
[00:51:30] Yeah. I mean, I do quite a bit of … It depends a bit. Do some fasting as well, so I always do intermittent fasting at least for 15, 16 hours between dinner and then my first meal. I started out about two years, well probably one and a half years after going on the ketogenic diet. That’s when fasting, it wasn’t as much in the headlines as it is now.
[00:52:30] It just suited me, because my daughter started preschool. Preparing breakfast, and lunches, and snacks, and trying to eat breakfast myself; it was just not possible. I sort of naturally did it. I still do without, and sometimes I do longer fasts as well. Then for breakfast, it could be eggs and some leftover vegetables. It’s quite … Or some avocado, and some other source of fat, protein. I like chia puddings as well. Sometimes I make smoothies or … Leftovers is actually quite often. I don’t know, something.
Stu
Absolutely. Cook once, eat twice; that’s what we say.
Patricia
[00:53:00] Yeah, I totally … I mean, I really don’t spend as much time in the kitchen as people think sometimes. I eat lots of salads, lots of greens. Just nice dressings with it to get the good fats in, so with olive oil or avocado oil. I like tahini as well, for making dressings. Then I do eat quite a lot of oily fish as well. I don’t each much meat. Not much meat. Muscle meat, so I probably have lamb once a week. Then about twice a week, I have organ meat.
Stu
Yep. Love the liver.
Patricia
Livers. Yeah, exactly. I’ve always had problems with anemia. Very low ferritin. I managed to go down to seven at some point in my triathlon career.
Stu
Okay.
Patricia
Yeah, that’s really much better, and very well-managed now. Yeah, I do eat loads of non-starchy vegetables. I make all kinds of interesting sort of bakes and [connoctions 00:53:44], and you know … all kinds of things. Yeah I mean, the family, they pretty much eat what I do, and then I just make a bit of food; sometimes have a bit of potatoes. The kids have … Pasta is a treat sort of once a week. Just for them to have some of the good quality carbs.
Yeah, now [inaudible 00:54:10] when I exercise a bit more, I do eat more starchy vegetables as well. That’s where I get most of my carbs from. It is the starchy vegetables. [inaudible 00:54:21], and squashes, pumpkins, and all that. If I do adjust my carbs, that’s where I get them from mostly.
Guy
Fantastic.
Stu
Fantastic. For everyone as well, that is certainly interested in exploring the ketogenic diet, but confused about how to access and how to prepare their meal, and things like that; now you’ve got a resource for that, haven’t you? In terms of a book.
Patricia
[00:55:00] Yeah. Yeah, we just published, actually, with my co-author, Domini Kemp. She was actually a client of mine three years ago. She’s a chef, and a food dry-eater, and very well-known here in Ireland. Two years ago, she said, “We have to write a book, we can’t just sit on this information and not get it out there.”
Her part is low-carb, which is perfectly doable for anybody also who’s interested in prevention. We also have a really good questionnaire. “Are you carb-tolerant, or maybe not?”
Stu
Yeah.
Patricia
If you answer yes to all these questions, then yeah, do try to go down with your carbs. Her part is very much low-carb, but it’s not necessarily ketogenic. I mean for me, it would be … I stay in ketosis very easily, and these days now.
[00:56:00] My part is me and plants for a whole month. It start with 48 grams of net carbs, and then goes down within two weeks to 12 grams, and then stays there. It’s actually proper meal plans, where I use leftovers as well. We’ve tried to really make it as doable and as easy as possible for people; there’s tons of recipes, I don’t even know. Like 400 or something.
Stu
Wow.
Guy
How was the book received? It can be quite a controversial topic.
Patricia
[00:56:30] Yes. That’s a good question. Here in Ireland, we’ve had a lot of backlash. I mean loads of really great feedback, and the book was in the bestseller list for weeks. It’s going to be selling really well. Big backlash from the Irish society as well. The dietitians as well, they don’t really-
Stu
No, yeah, that’s always the case. It’s tricky. In the land of potatoes and Guinness, I guess you’re going to get a little bit of contention.
Patricia
[00:57:00] Exactly, yeah. Generally, it’s been stressful, but it’s been good. In the states, it actually just hit the top 10 last … Was it about 10 days ago? We came number nine overall in all books.
Guy
Wow.
Stu
Wow.
Patricia
[inaudible 00:57:06] in the US, so there was just this huge rush, and then we were sold out. Then we plummeted again. Now I think it’s coming back into stock. I think tomorrow, or on the 12th. It’s back in stock in the US, but now it … It was out of stock for 10 days now.
Guy
What’s the book called?
Stu
Fantastic.
Patricia
It’s called The Ketogenic Kitchen.
Guy
The Ketogenic Kitchen. You can get that from Amazon? Or just …
Patricia
Amazon. I know it’s being sold in Tasmania as well.
Guy
Brilliant.
Patricia
Yeah. There’s a little outlet right there that sells this. Then in most book shops in the states, and …
Guy
We can leave the short note afterwards anyway.
Patricia
Yeah.
Guy
Just to wrap up the podcast, we got a couple of questions we ask everyone on the show, Patricia. The first one is, “What are your non-negotiables to be the best version of yourself now?”
Patricia
I need space.
Stu
Right. Yep.
Patricia
[00:58:30] I think that’s one of the things that I’ve learned in the past few years, just space and time to tune in. I also need my family, my community. Then yeah, for me, obviously food is a non-negotiable, otherwise we would be a bit odd. Yeah, just what I can do with food, I think that’s the big challenge; that’s my tune in my job.
Guy
What’s the best of advice you’ve ever been given?
Patricia
Best piece of advice I’ve ever been given. Goodness, that’s a good question.
[00:59:00] Yeah, I guess it really is, “Follow your passions,” is what I learned. I think I probably grew up with that. That’s probably what my parents also encouraged me to do, to go against the stream. They always supported me, and I’ve always done things differently. When I was a teenager, and everybody was smoking, I was on my bike.
Stu
You were running and cycling, yeah?
Patricia
Yeah, exactly. I never had an issue. I was always supported by my friends, so that was nice. I guess that’s what I can say to …
Stu
I just want to butt in there and say, from my perspective, it’s almost sounds like the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given was by your oncologist, who said, “Go home and rest.”
Guy
Yeah.
Patricia
Exactly. Yeah, and that really got my back up.
Guy
[01:00:00] Patricia, you’ve been on quite a journey, and it’s been amazing. For you to be able to help and share that with others is truly incredible, so-
Patricia
Yeah. Yeah. That’s ultimately my goal, it’s inspiring and showing people that there are other ways. Yeah.
Guy
If anyone wants to find out more about you, Patricia, where can we send them to online?
Patricia
My website is patriciadaly.com.
Guy
Yep.
Stu
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Patricia
[01:00:30] Also that’s my blog, and that’s where people can find the book as. I’ve got eBooks as well, I just published a new one for total beginners with lots of nice photographs, so that’s quite a good one. What does it look like if you want to eat broccoli, but you want to eat one gram of net carb.
Stu
Right. Wow, okay.
Patricia
[01:01:00] On your plate, and you see you can eat tons of spinach, for instance. Then this tiny little thing of sweet potato for one gram of net carbs. It just [inaudible 01:00:55] it’s everything, and I do it for protein and fat as well. Then I have free classes as well, online classes on ketoforyou.com where people can sign up just to get a taste. I have one class for patients, and one class for practitioners as well. Then I’ve got the more extensive the page online courses, too.
Guy
Brilliant.
Stu
Brilliant.
Guy
Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time, Patricia, that was awesome.
Patricia
[01:01:30] Yeah, thanks for having me, it was a great pleasure. I do hope it can make a big difference to some people who are listening.
Guy
I have no doubt, I have no doubt.
Stu
Absolutely. I’m sure it will.
Guy
Thanks for your time.
Stu
All right. Okay, thank you so much, Patricia, and we’ll hope to speak to you soon.
Patricia
Yeah. Thanks.
Guy
Cheers.
Stu
Bye-bye.
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